Jump to content


Photo

Greatest Team Principal?


  • Please log in to reply
142 replies to this topic

#101 Octavian

Octavian
  • Member

  • 703 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 26 April 2012 - 19:44

Chunky should take some of the blame for Bernie running f1


Some of the credit you must mean?

Advertisement

#102 bauss

bauss
  • Member

  • 4,946 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 26 April 2012 - 19:50

Martin Whitmarsh

#103 Darth Sidious

Darth Sidious
  • Member

  • 751 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 26 April 2012 - 20:06

Martin Whitmarsh



:up:


:lol:

#104 CSquared

CSquared
  • Member

  • 614 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 26 April 2012 - 20:31

I can't believe people would think Dennis is a good manager of drivers. Lauda, Prost, Montoya, Alonso, just off the top of my head, couldn't wait to get away from him. He is apparently not only unable to work with more than one driver at a time, he has to turn against the unfavored one.

#105 Wiggy

Wiggy
  • Member

  • 450 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 26 April 2012 - 20:52

I can't believe people would think Dennis is a good manager of drivers. Lauda, Prost, Montoya, Alonso, just off the top of my head, couldn't wait to get away from him. He is apparently not only unable to work with more than one driver at a time, he has to turn against the unfavored one.


Because they all forgot that they are employees of the team and let their egos loose

#106 ZooL

ZooL
  • Member

  • 2,063 posts
  • Joined: June 08

Posted 26 April 2012 - 20:59

Martin Whitmarsh


:rotfl: :rotfl:

(wipes coffee off screen)

I think Mosley was right on this one - definately not the sharpest knife in the box.

#107 DrF

DrF
  • Member

  • 1,389 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 April 2012 - 22:39

Can't help but notice the absence of Eddie Jordan from this thread...

#108 TheBunk

TheBunk
  • Member

  • 4,083 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 26 April 2012 - 23:04

Can't help but notice the absence of Eddie Jordan from this thread...


Jordan :lol:

There was a time when I thought he was serious about F1, but that kind of vanished near the end of the 90s. He spent more money on celebs in the paddock, than on the reliability of his cars, much to the chagrin of his engineers. Had some great races in 1999, but it never materialised later on in the naughties. The sale of his team in the end, became very messy.

I think Nigel Roebuck once wrote that Mosley said: Jordan only cares about his 90ft yacht, the wingspan of his private jet and his 9m pound Chelsea condomenium.

I wouldnt go that far, but a great team principal I dont think he was.

#109 Zoe

Zoe
  • Member

  • 2,711 posts
  • Joined: July 99

Posted 27 April 2012 - 06:33

Has anyone mentioned Alfred Neubauer as a candidate yet?


Yes :wave:

Zoe

#110 Lotus72b

Lotus72b
  • Member

  • 81 posts
  • Joined: September 01

Posted 27 April 2012 - 06:40

Teddy Mayer

#111 slideways

slideways
  • Member

  • 3,193 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 27 April 2012 - 07:24

In my opinion Dennis was an terrible driver/people manager and it came back to bite him with more than one of his drivers. He always seemed to feel the need to try and play the father figure and 'coach' them, even on matters outside of the sport.

I think it was a fundamental flaw and the fallout that came from it stopped him from being the all out best team principal in my view.

My top 5 is something like:

Ferrari
Brabham
Dennis
Chapman
Williams

In modern times, I feel Horner doesn't get enough recognition. Especially on this forum, deep in McLaren country.

Whitmarsh was far better prepared for his role being himself a McLaren product and Dennis protoge. He was given a fully functioning championship team and higher resources (at least to begin with) but has achieved far less in a similar time frame.

Horner also had/has to delicately balance the Austrian and English contingents in the team and that must have been a real challenge.

Edited by slideways, 27 April 2012 - 07:25.


#112 jumpeyspyder

jumpeyspyder
  • Member

  • 39 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:16

Statistics would say that it is R Brawn he has a 100% success rate winning both WDC & WCC in 2009

It depends on what you think the most important attribute of the team principle are.

For finding new blood I'd give it to - G.C. Minardi
For hard nosed business - Probably R. Dennis
Engineering genius - C. Chapman
for political nous- J. Todt
For having the most tastless wardrobe (to be fair it wasn't so bad when he had a team to run): Eddie Jordan :)




#113 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • New Member

  • 20 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:59

"It depends on what you think the most important attributes of the team principle are."

Exactly! To me the greatest team principle is the one who does the best job at putting a strong team together, consistently and over a long time

Restricting myself to the period 1906 to 2012, my top three would be:

Ron Dennis, Ron Dennis and Ron Dennis.


#114 Kop Alonso

Kop Alonso
  • Member

  • 275 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 27 April 2012 - 14:11


Reinhold Joest is one of my favourite's (espcially in the days of the Porsche 956/962 )


Cesare Fiorio is also worth mentioning for his success at Fiat/ Lancia


Charly Lamm of Schnitzer BMW is also worthy

:up:




#115 four1

four1
  • Member

  • 450 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 27 April 2012 - 18:05

I have to wonder how two convicted cheaters can even have their names on a list of "Greatest Team Principals".

Edited by four1, 27 April 2012 - 18:08.


#116 byrkus

byrkus
  • Member

  • 785 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 27 April 2012 - 18:52

Walter Wolf.

He only ever had four drivers - Scheckter, Rosberg, Hunt, Rahal. 3 of 4 were/became World Champions, while the fourth became CART legend.

Plus the fact that his team won in its first outing - can't get any better than this.;)


#117 TheWilliamzer

TheWilliamzer
  • Member

  • 688 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 27 April 2012 - 19:04

Sir Frank. No discussion! ;)

He started as a mechanic then founded a team where the 1st office was a phonebox... Personally in terms of dedication, hard work and determination I don't think anybody comes close to Sir Frank Williams. Even after that accident he kept going and winning championships. And the most important thing is that he didn't sell the team to a car manufacturer like everybody else did.

#118 JRizzle86

JRizzle86
  • Member

  • 2,087 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 27 April 2012 - 19:21

I have to wonder how two convicted cheaters can even have their names on a list of "Greatest Team Principals".


You need to look in the history of F1 past 2007, espionage, rule breaking, cheating whatever you want to call it has been rife down the pit lane for the entire history of the sport. I don't think any of the historic teams or their principles have a leg to stand on in terms of innocence.

#119 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 27 April 2012 - 19:28

I have to wonder how two convicted cheaters can even have their names on a list of "Greatest Team Principals".

Ever heard of evil genius?

Advertisement

#120 four1

four1
  • Member

  • 450 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 27 April 2012 - 20:11

You need to look in the history of F1 past 2007, espionage, rule breaking, cheating whatever you want to call it has been rife down the pit lane for the entire history of the sport. I don't think any of the historic teams or their principles have a leg to stand on in terms of innocence.


No argument there but I was trying to put the emphasis on "convicted". Two of the names on the list meet the criteria.

#121 four1

four1
  • Member

  • 450 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 27 April 2012 - 20:12

Ever heard of evil genius?


Yep, but genii don't get caught.

#122 gm914

gm914
  • Member

  • 6,046 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 27 April 2012 - 21:59

Ken Tyrrell.

#123 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 11,151 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 27 April 2012 - 22:16

Walter Wolf.

He only ever had four drivers - Scheckter, Rosberg, Hunt, Rahal. 3 of 4 were/became World Champions, while the fourth became CART legend.

Plus the fact that his team won in its first outing - can't get any better than this.;)

But it can be equalled - like Ross Brawn did.

Rosberg, Hunt and Rahal were all failures @ Wolf - so a different view might be that he had 4 champions but he only made 1 of them partially succesful while 3 others had the worst part of their entire career specifically with him ;)


#124 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 11,151 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 27 April 2012 - 22:24

"It depends on what you think the most important attributes of the team principle are."

Exactly! To me the greatest team principle is the one who does the best job at putting a strong team together, consistently and over a long time

Restricting myself to the period 1906 to 2012, my top three would be:

Ron Dennis, Ron Dennis and Ron Dennis.

But that's exactly where Ron failed ;)
He couldn't manage Prost/Senna (and lost Honda, didn't get the best Ford and lost a year with Peugeot), he couldn't manage Hamilton/Montoya, he couldn't manage Alonso/Hamilton.

According that criterium Jean Todt is clearly superior.

Edited by scheivlak, 27 April 2012 - 22:25.


#125 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 27 April 2012 - 22:43

No argument there but I was trying to put the emphasis on "convicted". Two of the names on the list meet the criteria.


Iirc, Ross Brawn was convicted for speeding which does not exactly make him a master criminal.

Briatore, on the other hand, is a convicted fraudster on top of his various F1 'crimes' and is IMHO an all-round nasty piece of work.


#126 Boing 2

Boing 2
  • Member

  • 2,429 posts
  • Joined: June 08

Posted 28 April 2012 - 11:02

But that's exactly where Ron failed ;)
He couldn't manage Prost/Senna (and lost Honda, didn't get the best Ford and lost a year with Peugeot), he couldn't manage Hamilton/Montoya, he couldn't manage Alonso/Hamilton.

According that criterium Jean Todt is clearly superior.


I agree his reputation on the driver front is overrated but the engine stuff? Mclaren had Honda for 5 years and won 4 world titles with them, can't really call that a failure. By the time they split, Honda were too heavy, too thirsty and too peaky, totally uncompetitive against Renaults V10. They had Ford for 1 year as a stop gap and to the best of my recollection negotiated up from customer to equal works spec by the end of the season. Peugeot was a disaster but they were rubbish thoughout their time in F1 and I think it was right to bail on them.

Todt held an overall team of people together but never held two number 1 drivers together for a single race never mind season (in F1)



P.S Hamilton/ Montoya? :drunk:

Edited by Boing 2, 28 April 2012 - 11:03.


#127 Cramadzy

Cramadzy
  • Member

  • 51 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 28 April 2012 - 11:50

Eddie Jordan would have to win the punching above one's weight title.

EDIT - That's purely based on the EJ BBC character, and who in their right mind would think he's being anything other than himself? How on Earth did he do it?

Edited by Cramadzy, 28 April 2012 - 11:56.


#128 Boing 2

Boing 2
  • Member

  • 2,429 posts
  • Joined: June 08

Posted 28 April 2012 - 11:53

Yeah, although Ken Tyrrell might give him a run for his money.

#129 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 28 April 2012 - 12:06

But that's exactly where Ron failed ;)
He couldn't manage Prost/Senna (and lost Honda, didn't get the best Ford and lost a year with Peugeot), he couldn't manage Hamilton/Montoya, he couldn't manage Alonso/Hamilton.

According that criterium Jean Todt is clearly superior.

Todt had a ton of money, Bridgestone and the FIA in his pocket. He engineered some huge PR fails for his brand like Austria 2002 and Indy, making Ferrari famous for unsporting conduct. Plus he was just an employee, a one trick pony with Schumi, and was eventually sacked. He is not in the same league as Dennis at all.

#130 velgajski1

velgajski1
  • Member

  • 3,614 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 28 April 2012 - 12:11

But that's exactly where Ron failed ;)
He couldn't manage Prost/Senna (and lost Honda, didn't get the best Ford and lost a year with Peugeot), he couldn't manage Hamilton/Montoya, he couldn't manage Alonso/Hamilton.

According that criterium Jean Todt is clearly superior.


Hamilton/Montoya? :)

Managing drivers is just one part of getting the great team together. As a McLaren fan I have to argue that his drivers policy was best one out there. He always wanted to have 2 best guys out there, put them in best car and watch them fight for title. It doesn't always end up good, but you get classic seasons that people still today talk about like 1989. and 2007.

He could have easily made Senna and Hamilton #2 drivers, and titles would be won easily in a boring season that would be soon forgotten.

#131 itsademo

itsademo
  • Member

  • 399 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 28 April 2012 - 12:19

Probably because he didn't mess up as much when choosing drivers. You have a fair point though.

much more likely because your favouitre driver was shown to not be so good when up against a real driver without favourtism

#132 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 9,541 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 28 April 2012 - 12:24

Posted Image

#133 kurski

kurski
  • Member

  • 262 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 28 April 2012 - 21:43

My best ever Team Principa is Flavio Briatore.

#134 alframsey

alframsey
  • Member

  • 1,415 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 29 April 2012 - 20:03

Ron Dennis, no competition...

#135 Longtimefan

Longtimefan
  • Member

  • 2,734 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 29 April 2012 - 20:13

There are a lot of good ones and several VERY good ones but one stands above the rest to me.

Ken Tyrrell



#136 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • New Member

  • 20 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 29 April 2012 - 21:22

But that's exactly where Ron failed ;)
He couldn't manage Prost/Senna (and lost Honda, didn't get the best Ford and lost a year with Peugeot), he couldn't manage Hamilton/Montoya, he couldn't manage Alonso/Hamilton.

According that criterium Jean Todt is clearly superior.


Sorry to follow everyone else in quoting you... don't feel persecuted!

But... are you really saying the Prost/Senna period of McLaren was a failure?

#137 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,109 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 29 April 2012 - 21:46

Any team principal not being noticed too much is great. Assholes ala Briatore should go home.

#138 micktosin

micktosin
  • Member

  • 428 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 29 April 2012 - 23:48

Seriously, can anybody see past Colin Chapman? I think him alongside Enzo, are Towering figures.

#139 britishtrident

britishtrident
  • Member

  • 1,954 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:48

Seriously, can anybody see past Colin Chapman? I think him alongside Enzo, are Towering figures.


Both were flawed Chapman's flaw was he had too many other interests, oldman Ferrari was a dictator who made a habit of not keeping his word. Both would have been a lot more succesfull if they hadn't fallen out with highly able key personnel.

Advertisement

#140 Spaceframe

Spaceframe
  • Member

  • 230 posts
  • Joined: December 05

Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:39

So all the talk of whether Marshwhit makes a good or bad TP, and should stay or go got me thinking... what makes a good TP? and who are/were the best at it?

10 names that come immediately to mind, in no particular order, as amongst the best:

Colin Chapman
Ross Brawn
Ron Dennis
Jean Todt
Frank Williams
Flavio Briatore
Enzo Ferrari
John Cooper
Jack Brabham
Ken Tyrell
Christian Horner

(...)
So what are yours?

Colin Chapman
Ron Dennis
Frank Williams
Enzo Ferrari
Jack Brabham
Jean Todt

Cooper and Tyrrell doesn't make my top 10 because both lost the the original momentum when their original ace driver moved on or retired. Horner hasn't yet been around for long enough to be evaluated. Briatore's role in Crashgate disqualifies him - not many commercial sponsors would want to be associated with cheating...

And some not on the original list:

Alfred Neubauer (politics meant Mercedes-Benz didn't compete every season, but whenever the board said go, Neubauer's team came up with a - Uhlenhaut designed - winner).
Giulio Alfieri (Maserati was never really well-funded, so to keep it competetive for as long as he managed was an incredible achievement).
Ettore Bugatti (he had his idiosyncracies, but his cars certainly captured the imagination of the entusiasts - and did win quite a few major races along the way).
Tony Rudd (anybody who could turn the culture of serial failures that was BRM into a championship winning team deserves an inclusion).

#141 davegp3

davegp3
  • Member

  • 1,820 posts
  • Joined: July 03

Posted 02 May 2012 - 14:17

Paul Stoddart. By miles.

#142 ascension

ascension
  • Member

  • 42 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 02 May 2012 - 17:19

Both were flawed Chapman's flaw was he had too many other interests, oldman Ferrari was a dictator who made a habit of not keeping his word. Both would have been a lot more succesfull if they hadn't fallen out with highly able key personnel.

Well, if your word is not good, then what is?
Posted Image


#143 spacekid

spacekid
  • Member

  • 2,576 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 02 May 2012 - 17:53

Of the team bosses that I've actually witnised, I'd have to say Ron Dennis. McLaren have had huge continual success - apart from a mid 90's blip - the whole time I've been watching F1, and its a credit to his management skills.