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Lotus 18 gearboxes


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#1 Roger Clark

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:19

John Thompson's Formula 1 Record Book says that the Team Lotus 18s had ZF gearboxes at the 1961 Aintree 200 and Syracuse Grand Prix. Is there any truth in this? DSJ wasn't at Aintree and his Syracuse report only says that the 18s were tatty and well worn.

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#2 Peter Morley

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:22

John Thompson's Formula 1 Record Book says that the Team Lotus 18s had ZF gearboxes at the 1961 Aintree 200 and Syracuse Grand Prix. Is there any truth in this? DSJ wasn't at Aintree and his Syracuse report only says that the 18s were tatty and well worn.


I think Lotus had ZF boxes (would have been 5DS10s) in (some of?) the 18s that they took to America, possibly with 18/21 bodywork, so it is possible they used them elsewhere - they had to be better than the Queerboxes after all.

#3 Roger Clark

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 11:13

As far as i know, Team Lotus never had an 18/21.

I thought that the ZF was exclusive to them and that all the 21s and 24s that appeared in private hands had Colotti boxes. Do any of the cars racing today have ZF gearboxes? I had not heard of an 18 with a ZF until i noticed the reference in Thompson.

#4 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 12:10

The Dawson-Damer car, which was ex-BRP I guess, had a Queerbox...

I recall looking at that when Mike Hailwood drove it at Amaroo Park.

#5 Roger Clark

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 16:25

That's interesting. I assume that this was one of the 1961 cars. UDT-Laystall started the season with Laystall gearboxes, changed to Lotus in mid-season, and changed again to Colotti by the end of the season.

When did you see it?

#6 Macca

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 20:12

John Oakley used to race an 18/21 in HSCC (and contributed to the HLR mag) , and his car had about 3 different brackets for gearlevers in the cockpit, and ISTR he told me it was ex-works (Taylor?) and had been fitted with various boxes in period.

Paul M

#7 David McKinney

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 21:52

Taylor drove 18s for Team Lotus and 18/21s for UDT-Laystall, though John Oakley claims his 18/21 is ex-TL/Taylor. Could have been upgraded post-works, of course

#8 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 21:55

Originally posted by Roger Clark
That's interesting. I assume that this was one of the 1961 cars. UDT-Laystall started the season with Laystall gearboxes, changed to Lotus in mid-season, and changed again to Colotti by the end of the season.

When did you see it?


At an Historic meeting in 1976 or 1977...

D-D would have been a stickler for having it right at some particular period in its life. It was running a 2.5 engine, so might that be a clue? Did they run a new 18 in Intercontinental events in '61?

There are more knowledgeable people than myself around who know much more about this car, I would think Doug would be familiar with it as some of the D-D stuff was auctioned and he was present. I'm sure he would have seen or got into discussions about other cars in the collection.

Edited by Ray Bell, 25 April 2012 - 21:56.


#9 Roger Clark

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 21:58

Taylor drove 18s for Team Lotus and 18/21s for UDT-Laystall, though John Oakley claims his 18/21 is ex-TL/Taylor. Could have been upgraded post-works, of course

Which Taylor are you talking about?

#10 David McKinney

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 05:49

Trevor

#11 Roger Clark

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 06:02

When did he drive for UDT-Laystall?

#12 2F-001

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 07:54

I'm getting awfully confused here (nothing new); doesn't a UDT-run 18/21 imply Henry T?
I didn't think Trevor drove with them until they ran the 24 and BRP.

Edited by 2F-001, 26 April 2012 - 07:57.


#13 David McKinney

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 10:13

When did he drive for UDT-Laystall?

Whoops :blush:
Fooled by my own system
My records for the first UDT-Laystall entries say "Henry Taylor" and from then on just "Taylor"
Having got it into my head that Trevor drove 18/21s for them, I conscientiously ignored mentions of Henry, but then jumped to the wrong conclusion
(My excuse is that I had taken my sleeping pills at 10pm, so by 11 they were clearly working!)

#14 Paul Hamilton

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 12:02

At an Historic meeting in 1976 or 1977...

D-D would have been a stickler for having it right at some particular period in its life. It was running a 2.5 engine, so might that be a clue? Did they run a new 18 in Intercontinental events in '61?

There are more knowledgeable people than myself around who know much more about this car, I would think Doug would be familiar with it as some of the D-D stuff was auctioned and he was present. I'm sure he would have seen or got into discussions about other cars in the collection.


Ray, my recollection of the DD Lotus 18 is that, during John's ownership, it only ever had a queerbox and a 1.5 litre Climax engine which reflected its period specification when run by UDT Laystall.

#15 Roger Clark

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 12:26

At an Historic meeting in 1976 or 1977...

D-D would have been a stickler for having it right at some particular period in its life. It was running a 2.5 engine, so might that be a clue? Did they run a new 18 in Intercontinental events in '61?

There are more knowledgeable people than myself around who know much more about this car, I would think Doug would be familiar with it as some of the D-D stuff was auctioned and he was present. I'm sure he would have seen or got into discussions about other cars in the collection.

UDT-L did run 18s in Intercontinental Formula races, but Theme Lotus says that the D-D car had chassis number 917 and I can't find any record of that car racing in IF that year.

#16 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 21:27

I defer to Paul's greater knowledge of the D-D car...

He had a lot more to do with those cars than I ever did, I must have confused the engine size in my mind over the years. But I didn't forget that Queerbox!

It would be interesting to know what path it followed to get to D-D, then.

#17 David McKinney

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 21:31

The previous (UK) owner ran it with Ford 1500 and then Chevrolet V8, until 1967

I think it joined the DD collection in 1973

#18 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 19:07

A Chev V8 before F5000 came into being?

I'll bet that tested the poor queerbox right out...

#19 David McKinney

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:50

I'm not sure that he retained the queerbox

In fact, being ex-BRP, would it ever have had a queerbox?

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#20 Roger Clark

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:06

I'm not sure that he retained the queerbox

In fact, being ex-BRP, would it ever have had a queerbox?

See post #5.

#21 David McKinney

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:18

I knew that :blush:

#22 Rudernst

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 21:35

I knew that :blush:



As far as I know

only 2 Lotus 18s ran 3 different boxes, chassis 912 (Moss Monaco Winner and chassis 915 (mine, ex UDT Clif Allison).
And yes, there were Queerbox, Laystall and Colotti.
Not necesseralily in the order mentioned earlier in this thread by other posters.
These two cars have assymetrical rear diaphragms needed to fit the Laystall box. An extension is welded in to the left.
NOT all UDT cars did get this treatment, they retained the standard symmetrcal rear end

And yes, there was an 18 fitted with a ZF, the ex Wolfgang Seidel Scuderia Colognia car, that still races today.

Rudolf

#23 Roger Clark

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:26

Are you saying that the Walker car once had a Laystall gearbox? When was that?

#24 Doug Nye

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 21:10

John Thompson's Formula 1 Record Book says that the Team Lotus 18s had ZF gearboxes at the 1961 Aintree 200 and Syracuse Grand Prix. Is there any truth in this? DSJ wasn't at Aintree and his Syracuse report only says that the 18s were tatty and well worn.


I don't have even a dodgy Team Lotus record sheet for Syracuse, sadly, but in Gregor Grant's report on the 1961 race he mentions that "all three Lotus 18s had their ratios changed" pre-race. That would not have happened (easily) if the two Team cars had been running ZF gearboxes in place of their normal Lotus queerboxes - not impossible, but not likely... Sadly, I have not been able to find a tail shot of the cars at Syracuse, in which a ZF instead of a Lotus 'box would be distinctive.

Posted Image
Here's Innes on the Type 18's Formula 1 debut in the 1960 Argentine GP, distinctive queerbox casing clearly visible within the car's tail (yes, it was hot that day in BA).

Posted Image
This is Moss in the 21-bodied, modified suspension Type 18 owned by Rob Walker - 1961 British GP, Aintree - Colotti gearbox casing on show...

Posted Image
And here's the Lotus gearbox of a Team car in their garage at Reims during the 1960 French GP meeting - in the middle of a ratio change. Oh yes, and with the inboard rear brakes clearly visible...along with the fixed-length drive shafts doubling as lateral upper locating members for those tall, cast hub carriers.

Photos: The GP Library

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 04 May 2012 - 22:00.


#25 Roger Clark

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:36

Thanks for those. Is that a dent in the exhaust pipe in the Reims picture? No wonder Brabham was so much faster!

#26 Concreteconrods

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 10:39

What gearbox was used in the first Rob Walker Lotus 18 in which SCM won the 1960 Monaco GP? I had assumed it to be the queerbox's only decent result - am I wrong?

#27 Roger Clark

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 10:46

It was the queerbox.

#28 DanTra2858

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 22:14

I defer to Paul's greater knowledge of the D-D car...

He had a lot more to do with those cars than I ever did, I must have confused the engine size in my mind over the years. But I didn't forget that Queerbox!

It would be interesting to know what path it followed to get to D-D, then.


Taken from the Bonhams & Goodman Austion Catalogue of the Dawson-Damer Collection is the following .....

Posted Image

The Engine Number that the 18 was to be sold with is FPF430-17-1123/2, there is no mention of any other gearbox's being used in this car, only the Queerbox.

Hope this helps.

#29 David McKinney

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 05:40

I wonder who restored it to "very original condition" after it had run with a V8 Chevrolet a few years earlier, and before D-D bought it

#30 teegeefla

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 03:55

Does anyone know which gearbox was in the Louise Bryden-Brown owned Lotus 18 chassis #903 while it was competing in Europe?

Also, when the car came to America and was owned by the Arciero Brothers, it definitely was not a "queerbox" as you can see in this photo, but I am unsure what gearbox this is:

http://thehenryford....g...age=C&alt=0

Finally, was 903 a left hand or right hand location for the shifter?

Thanks.

Edited by teegeefla, 06 July 2013 - 03:59.


#31 Michael Oliver

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 22:01

Does anyone know which gearbox was in the Louise Bryden-Brown owned Lotus 18 chassis #903 while it was competing in Europe?

Also, when the car came to America and was owned by the Arciero Brothers, it definitely was not a "queerbox" as you can see in this photo, but I am unsure what gearbox this is:

http://thehenryford....g...age=C&alt=0

Finally, was 903 a left hand or right hand location for the shifter?

Thanks.


On the Lotus 19 sports cars, a popular mod was to replace the Queerbox with a Colotti, so maybe they did the same with the 18?


#32 Peter Morley

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 09:19

Does anyone know which gearbox was in the Louise Bryden-Brown owned Lotus 18 chassis #903 while it was competing in Europe?

Also, when the car came to America and was owned by the Arciero Brothers, it definitely was not a "queerbox" as you can see in this photo, but I am unsure what gearbox this is:

http://thehenryford....g...age=C&alt=0

Finally, was 903 a left hand or right hand location for the shifter?

Thanks.


The gearbox in the photo looks like a Colotti but not sure which model and has a right hand gearchange.