Lotus 18 gearboxes
#1
Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:19
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#2
Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:22
John Thompson's Formula 1 Record Book says that the Team Lotus 18s had ZF gearboxes at the 1961 Aintree 200 and Syracuse Grand Prix. Is there any truth in this? DSJ wasn't at Aintree and his Syracuse report only says that the 18s were tatty and well worn.
I think Lotus had ZF boxes (would have been 5DS10s) in (some of?) the 18s that they took to America, possibly with 18/21 bodywork, so it is possible they used them elsewhere - they had to be better than the Queerboxes after all.
#3
Posted 25 April 2012 - 11:13
I thought that the ZF was exclusive to them and that all the 21s and 24s that appeared in private hands had Colotti boxes. Do any of the cars racing today have ZF gearboxes? I had not heard of an 18 with a ZF until i noticed the reference in Thompson.
#4
Posted 25 April 2012 - 12:10
I recall looking at that when Mike Hailwood drove it at Amaroo Park.
#5
Posted 25 April 2012 - 16:25
When did you see it?
#6
Posted 25 April 2012 - 20:12
Paul M
#7
Posted 25 April 2012 - 21:52
#8
Posted 25 April 2012 - 21:55
Originally posted by Roger Clark
That's interesting. I assume that this was one of the 1961 cars. UDT-Laystall started the season with Laystall gearboxes, changed to Lotus in mid-season, and changed again to Colotti by the end of the season.
When did you see it?
At an Historic meeting in 1976 or 1977...
D-D would have been a stickler for having it right at some particular period in its life. It was running a 2.5 engine, so might that be a clue? Did they run a new 18 in Intercontinental events in '61?
There are more knowledgeable people than myself around who know much more about this car, I would think Doug would be familiar with it as some of the D-D stuff was auctioned and he was present. I'm sure he would have seen or got into discussions about other cars in the collection.
Edited by Ray Bell, 25 April 2012 - 21:56.
#9
Posted 25 April 2012 - 21:58
Which Taylor are you talking about?Taylor drove 18s for Team Lotus and 18/21s for UDT-Laystall, though John Oakley claims his 18/21 is ex-TL/Taylor. Could have been upgraded post-works, of course
#10
Posted 26 April 2012 - 05:49
#11
Posted 26 April 2012 - 06:02
#12
Posted 26 April 2012 - 07:54
I didn't think Trevor drove with them until they ran the 24 and BRP.
Edited by 2F-001, 26 April 2012 - 07:57.
#13
Posted 26 April 2012 - 10:13
WhoopsWhen did he drive for UDT-Laystall?
Fooled by my own system
My records for the first UDT-Laystall entries say "Henry Taylor" and from then on just "Taylor"
Having got it into my head that Trevor drove 18/21s for them, I conscientiously ignored mentions of Henry, but then jumped to the wrong conclusion
(My excuse is that I had taken my sleeping pills at 10pm, so by 11 they were clearly working!)
#14
Posted 26 April 2012 - 12:02
At an Historic meeting in 1976 or 1977...
D-D would have been a stickler for having it right at some particular period in its life. It was running a 2.5 engine, so might that be a clue? Did they run a new 18 in Intercontinental events in '61?
There are more knowledgeable people than myself around who know much more about this car, I would think Doug would be familiar with it as some of the D-D stuff was auctioned and he was present. I'm sure he would have seen or got into discussions about other cars in the collection.
Ray, my recollection of the DD Lotus 18 is that, during John's ownership, it only ever had a queerbox and a 1.5 litre Climax engine which reflected its period specification when run by UDT Laystall.
#15
Posted 26 April 2012 - 12:26
UDT-L did run 18s in Intercontinental Formula races, but Theme Lotus says that the D-D car had chassis number 917 and I can't find any record of that car racing in IF that year.At an Historic meeting in 1976 or 1977...
D-D would have been a stickler for having it right at some particular period in its life. It was running a 2.5 engine, so might that be a clue? Did they run a new 18 in Intercontinental events in '61?
There are more knowledgeable people than myself around who know much more about this car, I would think Doug would be familiar with it as some of the D-D stuff was auctioned and he was present. I'm sure he would have seen or got into discussions about other cars in the collection.
#16
Posted 26 April 2012 - 21:27
He had a lot more to do with those cars than I ever did, I must have confused the engine size in my mind over the years. But I didn't forget that Queerbox!
It would be interesting to know what path it followed to get to D-D, then.
#17
Posted 26 April 2012 - 21:31
I think it joined the DD collection in 1973
#18
Posted 28 April 2012 - 19:07
I'll bet that tested the poor queerbox right out...
#19
Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:50
In fact, being ex-BRP, would it ever have had a queerbox?
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#20
Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:06
See post #5.I'm not sure that he retained the queerbox
In fact, being ex-BRP, would it ever have had a queerbox?
#21
Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:18
#22
Posted 30 April 2012 - 21:35
I knew that
As far as I know
only 2 Lotus 18s ran 3 different boxes, chassis 912 (Moss Monaco Winner and chassis 915 (mine, ex UDT Clif Allison).
And yes, there were Queerbox, Laystall and Colotti.
Not necesseralily in the order mentioned earlier in this thread by other posters.
These two cars have assymetrical rear diaphragms needed to fit the Laystall box. An extension is welded in to the left.
NOT all UDT cars did get this treatment, they retained the standard symmetrcal rear end
And yes, there was an 18 fitted with a ZF, the ex Wolfgang Seidel Scuderia Colognia car, that still races today.
Rudolf
#23
Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:26
#24
Posted 04 May 2012 - 21:10
John Thompson's Formula 1 Record Book says that the Team Lotus 18s had ZF gearboxes at the 1961 Aintree 200 and Syracuse Grand Prix. Is there any truth in this? DSJ wasn't at Aintree and his Syracuse report only says that the 18s were tatty and well worn.
I don't have even a dodgy Team Lotus record sheet for Syracuse, sadly, but in Gregor Grant's report on the 1961 race he mentions that "all three Lotus 18s had their ratios changed" pre-race. That would not have happened (easily) if the two Team cars had been running ZF gearboxes in place of their normal Lotus queerboxes - not impossible, but not likely... Sadly, I have not been able to find a tail shot of the cars at Syracuse, in which a ZF instead of a Lotus 'box would be distinctive.
Here's Innes on the Type 18's Formula 1 debut in the 1960 Argentine GP, distinctive queerbox casing clearly visible within the car's tail (yes, it was hot that day in BA).
This is Moss in the 21-bodied, modified suspension Type 18 owned by Rob Walker - 1961 British GP, Aintree - Colotti gearbox casing on show...
And here's the Lotus gearbox of a Team car in their garage at Reims during the 1960 French GP meeting - in the middle of a ratio change. Oh yes, and with the inboard rear brakes clearly visible...along with the fixed-length drive shafts doubling as lateral upper locating members for those tall, cast hub carriers.
Photos: The GP Library
DCN
Edited by Doug Nye, 04 May 2012 - 22:00.
#25
Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:36
#26
Posted 06 June 2012 - 10:39
#27
Posted 06 June 2012 - 10:46
#28
Posted 06 June 2012 - 22:14
I defer to Paul's greater knowledge of the D-D car...
He had a lot more to do with those cars than I ever did, I must have confused the engine size in my mind over the years. But I didn't forget that Queerbox!
It would be interesting to know what path it followed to get to D-D, then.
Taken from the Bonhams & Goodman Austion Catalogue of the Dawson-Damer Collection is the following .....
The Engine Number that the 18 was to be sold with is FPF430-17-1123/2, there is no mention of any other gearbox's being used in this car, only the Queerbox.
Hope this helps.
#29
Posted 07 June 2012 - 05:40
#30
Posted 06 July 2013 - 03:55
Also, when the car came to America and was owned by the Arciero Brothers, it definitely was not a "queerbox" as you can see in this photo, but I am unsure what gearbox this is:
http://thehenryford....g...age=C&alt=0
Finally, was 903 a left hand or right hand location for the shifter?
Thanks.
Edited by teegeefla, 06 July 2013 - 03:59.
#31
Posted 07 July 2013 - 22:01
Does anyone know which gearbox was in the Louise Bryden-Brown owned Lotus 18 chassis #903 while it was competing in Europe?
Also, when the car came to America and was owned by the Arciero Brothers, it definitely was not a "queerbox" as you can see in this photo, but I am unsure what gearbox this is:
http://thehenryford....g...age=C&alt=0
Finally, was 903 a left hand or right hand location for the shifter?
Thanks.
On the Lotus 19 sports cars, a popular mod was to replace the Queerbox with a Colotti, so maybe they did the same with the 18?
#32
Posted 11 July 2013 - 09:19
Does anyone know which gearbox was in the Louise Bryden-Brown owned Lotus 18 chassis #903 while it was competing in Europe?
Also, when the car came to America and was owned by the Arciero Brothers, it definitely was not a "queerbox" as you can see in this photo, but I am unsure what gearbox this is:
http://thehenryford....g...age=C&alt=0
Finally, was 903 a left hand or right hand location for the shifter?
Thanks.
The gearbox in the photo looks like a Colotti but not sure which model and has a right hand gearchange.
#33
Posted 17 April 2021 - 08:51
John Thompson's Formula 1 Record Book says that the Team Lotus 18s had ZF gearboxes at the 1961 Aintree 200 and Syracuse Grand Prix. Is there any truth in this? DSJ wasn't at Aintree and his Syracuse report only says that the 18s were tatty and well worn.
Roger, did you ever manage to get any further on this query? I guess that Doug's reply suggested it was unlikely.
The gearbox fitted to the Gurney 903 when it raced in the US was a Colotti Type 29 5-speed unit, almost certainly taken out of the Arciero Brothers Lotus 19-951, as I have photos of that car running that type of gearbox in 1961.
#34
Posted 20 April 2021 - 10:01
I must admit that after Doug's reply and with what I already knew, I didn't take it any further.
#35
Posted 21 April 2021 - 01:33
The Thompson book also quotes ZF for the Clark and Ireland Syracuse GP entries three days after Aintree. So perhaps another avenue to explore.
In 26/4/61 The Motor's Aintree report there's reference of "... - all the Team Lotus entries were the 1960 type car - ... " The only Lotus related gearbox reference I can see relates to Tony Marsh "(1960 Lotus with Cooper gearbox and other modifications)." That Thompson's book also records.
Stephen
#36
Posted 22 April 2021 - 04:29
What is a queer box??
Open wheel stuff is not my forte. I know the Collotti box and ZF but not the Queerbox.
Who made them and what made them queer?
#37
Posted 22 April 2021 - 07:13
Who made them and what made them queer?
Lotus made them and because Lotus made them.
#38
Posted 06 May 2021 - 23:05
The Thompson book also quotes ZF for the Clark and Ireland Syracuse GP entries three days after Aintree. So perhaps another avenue to explore.
In 26/4/61 The Motor's Aintree report there's reference of "... - all the Team Lotus entries were the 1960 type car - ... " The only Lotus related gearbox reference I can see relates to Tony Marsh "(1960 Lotus with Cooper gearbox and other modifications)." That Thompson's book also records.
Stephen
Thanks for this, Stephen. The general consensus seems to be that there was no Lotus 18 fitted with a ZF box in period by Team Lotus. But by 1967 there was a Lotus 18 in private hands fitted with an FPF and ZF box, apparently from Clark's 1961 Monza crash Lotus 21.
#39
Posted 06 May 2021 - 23:10
What is a queer box??
Open wheel stuff is not my forte. I know the Collotti box and ZF but not the Queerbox.
Who made them and what made them queer?
Lee, the 'Queerbox' was designed by Lotus and was a five-speed sequential gearbox, with a shift akin to a motorcycle. It was not very reliable. When Keith Duckworth joined Lotus he was tasked with making it so but concluded the only way to do this was to have completely new parts made and he said Colin Chapman did not wish to spend the money doing this. So Duckworth left to start up Cosworth with Mike Costin...
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#40
Posted 07 May 2021 - 02:11
Are you saying that the Walker car once had a Laystall gearbox? When was that?
I would be very interested to learn more about the Laystall transaxle.
I understand Mike Hewland was involved with the design before setting up Hewland transmissions.
A picture would be nice.
Thanks in anticipation
Pat
#41
Posted 27 May 2021 - 20:51
Edited by Michael Oliver, 27 May 2021 - 20:52.