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For the record - 1962 Formula 1


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#1 Doug Nye

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 21:23

Not sure if what follows is simply too anorak to be digestible, but this month's 'Motor Sport' carries an extensive feature recalling the Formula1 season of 1962 which I think deserves just a little extra info being made available. Some of the gen assembled for that feature ended up (quite justifiably in fact) on the sub-editor's spike. But while the specific history trails of cars, or rather chassis identities, has been pretty well recorded, that of individual engines is mentioned relatively rarely. Well, in tribute to the efforts of those designers, draughtsmen, engineers, fitters and fettlers of fifty years ago here's the best engine identity gen that I could glean for who and which was powered by what amongst that season's main contestants - Team Lotus and BRM. For what it's worth, based upon surviving works team records and excepting only the Mallory Park 2000 Guineas race, here goes:


January 2, 1962 – Cape Grand Prix, Killarney, South Africa

Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 21 ‘930’ – engine ‘1209’ 4-cyinder
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 21 ‘933’ – engine ‘1226’ 4-cylinder

April 1,1962 – Brussels GP, Heysel, Belgium

Graham Hill: BRM P578 ‘5781’- engine ‘5606’
Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 24 ‘948’ – engine ‘V8-1’
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 24 ‘949’ – engine ‘1220’ 4-cylinder


April 14, 1962 – Lombank Trophy, Snetterton

Graham Hill BRM P578 ‘5781’ engine ‘5607’
Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 24 ‘948’ – engine ‘V8-1’
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 24 ‘949’ – engine ‘1220’ 4-cylinder


April 23, 1962 – International ‘100’, Goodwood

Graham Hill – BRM P578 ‘5781’ – engine ‘5606’
Richie Ginther – BRM P578 ‘5783’ – engine ‘5607’


April 23, 1962 – Pau Grand Prix, France

Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 24 ‘948’ – engine ‘V8-1’
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 24 ‘949’ – engine ‘1230’ 4-cylinder

April 28, 1962 – Aintree ‘200’, Liverpool

Graham Hill - BRM P578 ‘5781’ – engine ‘5606’
Richie Ginther – BRM P578 ‘5783’ – engine ‘5605’
Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 24 ‘948’ – engine ‘V8’
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 24 ‘949’ – engine ‘1132’ 4-cylinder


May 12,1962 – BRDC International Trophy, Silverstone

Graham Hill – BRM P578 ‘5781’ – engine ‘5605’
Richie Ginther – BRM P578 ‘5783’ – engine ‘5606’
Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 24 ‘948’ – engine ‘V8’
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 24 ‘949’ – engine ‘1229’ 4-cylinder


May 20, 1962 – Dutch Grand Prix, Zandvoort

Graham Hill – BRM P578 ‘5781’ – engine 5605’
Richie Ginther – BRM P57 ‘571’ – engine ‘5606’
Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R1’ – engine ‘499-7’
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 24 ‘948’ – engine ‘V8’


June 3, 1962 – Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo

Graham Hill – BRM P578 ‘5781’ – engine 5605’
Richie Ginther – BRM P57 ‘571’ – engine ‘5606’
Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R1’ – engine ‘499-7’
Trevor Taylor - Lotus-Climax 24 '948' - engine '488'
Trevor Taylor T-car – Lotus-BRM 24 ‘949’ – engine ’56—‘


June 11,1962 – Crystal Palace Trophy, London

Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 24 ‘949’ – BRM engine ’56--’


June 17, 1962 – Belgian Grand Prix, Spa-Francorchamps

Graham Hill – BRM P578 ‘5781’ – engine 5605’
Richie Ginther – BRM ‘5783’(2) – engine ‘5604’
Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R1’ – engine ‘499-7’
Trevor Taylor - Lotus-Climax 24 ‘948’ – engine ‘488’*
*Race date and Trevor's car/engine corrected after my original posted draft.
There are two entries for him in Team's Spa '62 record 15-6-62 - Lotus Type 24 '948', engine '488', ZF gearbox 'No 3', then for the race on the 17th same chassis and engine but mated to ZF gearbox 'No 7'. Incidentally for practice his car's tyres ran 36lbs psi front and rear, but for the race 34 front, 38 rear. Jim Clark in his victorious 25 'R1' ran 36/36 practice and 34/36 race.


July 1, 1962 – Grand Prix de Reims, France

Graham Hill – BRM P578 ‘5781’ – engine 5605’
Richie Ginther – BRM P578 ‘5783’(2) – engine ‘5610’
Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R1’ – engine ‘499-8’
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 24 ‘950’ engine ‘488’
Peter Arundell – Lotus-BRM 24 ‘949’ – engine ’56—‘


July 8,1962 – French Grand Prix, Rouen-les-Essarts
Graham Hill – BRM P578 ‘5781’ – engine 5604’
Richie Ginther – BRM P578 ‘5783’(2) – engine ‘5605’
Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R2’ – engine ‘499-7’
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R1’ – engine ‘499-8’

July 15, 1962 – Solitude GP, Stuttgart, Germany

Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R2’ – engine ‘499-7’
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 24 ‘950’ – engine ‘488’


July 21,1962 – British Grand Prix, Aintree

Graham Hill – BRM P578 ‘5781’ – engine 5605’
Richie Ginther – BRM P578 ‘5783’(2) – engine ‘5604’
Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R2’ – engine ‘499-8’
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 24 ‘950’ – engine ‘488’


August 5,1962 – German GP, Nurburgring

Graham Hill – BRM P578 ‘5781’ – engine 5604’
Richie Ginther – BRM P578 ‘5783’(2) – engine ‘5605’
Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R2’ – engine ‘499-7’
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 24 ‘950’ – engine ‘488’


August 25-26, 1962 - Det Danske Grand Prix, Roskildering, Copenhagen, Denmark

Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R2’ – engine ‘488’


September 1, 1962 – International Gold Cup, Oulton Park, England

Graham Hill – BRM P578 ‘5781’ – engine 5604’
Richie Ginther – BRM P578 ‘5783’(2) – engine ‘5605’
Bruce Johnstone – BRM P578 ‘5785’ – engine ‘5610’
Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R2’ – engine ‘499-7’
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R3’ – engine ‘499-9’


September 16,1962 – Italian GP, Monza

Graham Hill – BRM P578 ‘5781’ – engine 5606’
Richie Ginther – BRM P578 ‘5785’ – engine ‘5610’
Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R3’ – engine ‘499-8’
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R2’ – engine ‘499-7’


October 7, 1962 – United States GP, Watkins Glen

Graham Hill – BRM P578 ‘5781’ – engine 5606’
Richie Ginther – BRM P578 ‘5783’(2) – engine ‘5605’
Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R3’ – engine ‘499-9’
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R2’ – engine ‘499-7’


November 4, 1962 – Mexican GP, Magdalena Mixhuca, Mexico City

Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R3’ – engine ‘499-8’
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R2’ – engine ‘499-7’


December 15, 1962 – Rand Grand Prix, Kyalami, South Africa

Graham Hill – BRM P578 ‘5781’ – engine '5604’
Richie Ginther – BRM P578 ‘5783’(2) – engine ‘5610’
Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R3’ – engine ‘499-8’
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R2’ – engine ‘499-7’


December 21, 1962 – Natal Grand Prix, Westmead, Durban, South Africa

Graham Hill – BRM P578 ‘5781’ – engine 5604’
Richie Ginther – BRM P578 ‘5783’(2) – engine ‘5605’
Bruce Johnstone – BRM P57 ‘571’ – engine ‘5613’
Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R4’ – engine ‘488 Inj’ - used in practice on December 20
Jim Clark - Lotus-Climax 25 'R3' - engine '499-8' - listed on race day
Jim Clark 'R4' with engine '488 Inj' ALSO listed on race day (??? strange but it's on the record???)
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R2’ – engine ‘499-7’


December 29, 1962 – South African GP, East London

Graham Hill – BRM P578 ‘5785’ – engine 5610’
Richie Ginther – BRM P578 ‘5783’(2) – engine ‘5614’
Bruce Johnstone – BRM P57 ‘571’ – engine ‘5613’
Jim Clark – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R5’ – engine ‘499-9’
Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 25 ‘R2’ – engine ‘499-8’


Aaah - that feels better...

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 06 May 2012 - 19:31.


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#2 Jack-the-Lad

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 21:49

^^

What a coincidence: I'm watching you right now on the "Renaissance Man"....de Cad.....episode about the (JSW) Lancia Ferrari D50.

:wave:

Edited by Jack-the-Lad, 27 April 2012 - 22:02.


#3 Doug Nye

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 22:23

:blush:

...yes, well, nobody's perfect....


#4 larryd

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 22:39

[quote name='Doug Nye' date='Apr 27 2012, 21:23' post='5691011']
Not sure if what follows is simply too anorak to be digestible, but this month's 'Motor Sport' carries an extensive feature recalling the Formula1 season of 1962 which I think deserves just a little extra info being made available. Some of the gen assembled for that feature ended up (quite justifiably in fact) on the sub-editor's spike. But while the specific history trails of cars, or rather chassis identities, has been pretty well recorded, that of individual engines is mentioned relatively rarely. Well, in tribute to the efforts of those designers, draughtsmen, engineers, fitters and fettlers of fifty years ago here's the best engine identity gen that I could glean for who and which was powered by what amongst that season's main contestants - Team Lotus and BRM. For what it's worth, based upon surviving works team records and excepting only the Mallory Park 2000 Guineas race, here goes:


Well done,Doug - DSJ lives !!

:clap:


#5 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 22:58

Wasn't '62 the year of the great Mairesse/Taylor battle and crash at Spa?

And wasn't Taylor in a 25 for the first time there?

Please tell me my memory's not that bad!

Frankly, I don't recall ever reading that a Team Lotus car had a BRM V8... although Arundell at Reims I could understand not recalling that... but Taylor at Spa?

#6 LittleChris

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 23:04

Wasn't '62 the year of the great Mairesse/Taylor battle and crash at Spa?


T'was indeed







#7 Barry Boor

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 05:48

I suppose I knew originally but although I remembered that Taylor drove a 24 at Spa, the news that it had a B.R.M engine has come as quite a surprise.

It's fascinating when you learn what you didn't know that you didn't know.

#8 David Lawson

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 06:40

And I didn't know until reading the article in this month's MotorSport that the original intention was to have a column change in the Lotus 25.

David

#9 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 07:48

Aaah - that feels better...

DCN


Sort of like when you have a song running through your head...and you have to hear it again before it drives you crazy. For me this week, it's been "La Plume de ma Tante" (Hugo and Luigi, 1959)

At any rate, well done! Very interesting stuff. I am helping take care of photo collection of the late Canadian photographer Ted Langton-Adams. This includes some great shots from the 1962 Dutch and Monaco GPs (and Nurburgring 1000 km). Please let me know if you are looking for anything.

Vince H.


#10 Charles Helps

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 10:11

June 15, 1962 – Belgian Grand Prix, Spa-Francorchamps

I don't know about engines but my copy of Theme Lotus gives the date as June 17, 1962...

#11 Alan Cox

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 12:45

I don't know about engines but my copy of Theme Lotus gives the date as June 17, 1962...

That was, indeed, a Sunday
The whole race in summary from 'A Gentleman's Motor Racing Diary'. Wish I could be transported back there right now :)


#12 Tuboscocca

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 15:11

Dear Doug great list!!


Trevor Taylor – Lotus-Climax 24 ‘949’ – BRM engine ’56--’


Is that just a typo or???Climax with BRM engine???

Regards Michael

#13 Roger Clark

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 21:54

I suppose I knew originally but although I remembered that Taylor drove a 24 at Spa, the news that it had a B.R.M engine has come as quite a surprise.

It's fascinating when you learn what you didn't know that you didn't know.

I'm sure he didn't.

#14 Roger Clark

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 21:58

Did Clark really have an injected engine at the Natal Grand Prix?

#15 Stephen W

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:18

It's fascinating when you learn what you didn't know that you didn't know.


Thankfully I am blissfully unaware that I don't know a lot of things.

#16 Barry Boor

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:59

Lucky man!

#17 D-Type

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 16:28

And I didn't know until reading the article in this month's MotorSport that the original intention was to have a column change in the Lotus 25.

David

By coincidence I was looking for something else in Maurice Hamilton's history of the British GP today and found a mention there: "Originally, there had been talk of a column gearchange but Chapman was persuaded to find more space for the more conventional shift."

#18 Doug Nye

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 19:24

Original casually posted draft text now amended at the top of this thread - I will eventually hunt out the Mallory Park detail, regardless of whether anyone else cares, or not....just so it's here, on the record. The 1962 season was the first I really followed in detail, 50 years ago, and those memories remain very vivid and special to me - as do many of the personalities involved.

DCN


#19 Barry Boor

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 20:22

What a great season in which to fall in love with Grand Prix racing - unless you were a Ferrari fan!

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#20 Roger Clark

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:26

Taylor with a BRM engine at Monaco is a change from the received wisdom.

#21 Barry Boor

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:32

If Taylor had a B.R.M engine at Monaco in 1962 - it was a B.R.M engine with the exhaust pipes coming out in EXACTLY the same place as the Climax ones did.

I'm looking right now at a picture of Trevor's car with its nose knocked up, leaving the Gasworks and if that is a B.R.M engine, then I'll be Queen of the May in the morning!

#22 Tim Murray

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:55

High exhaust also visible in this photo:

http://www.latphoto....l...&height=674



#23 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:15

High exhaust also visible in this photo:

http://www.latphoto....l...&height=674



John Thompson writes Lotus put a BRM in the former Climax engined chassis 950 for testing. They tried it out but it was not raced . Car no. 18T for Clark and 20T for Taylor.

#24 Roger Clark

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:35

High exhaust also visible in this photo:

http://www.latphoto....l...&height=674

In that picture you can see that the Lotus has no nose, removed following the first corner unpleasantness.

#25 Doug Nye

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:25

What's that line about post in haste, regret at leisure...?

The Lotus-BRM at Monaco was not a phantom of my imagining, nor was it 24 chassis '950' as in Bjorn's post above, but what I initially listed above (now corrected) was an error of omission rather than commission, because there was a line missing above it (damned computers). The relevant Team Lotus record of Monaco 1962 actually read - save for the explanatory wording in brackets - as follows:

RACE 3-6-62 - 25 R1 (chassis) - 499/7 (engine) - ZF No 4 (gearbox) - CLARK (officer in command) - 5.00 D12 (front tyres) 30 (lbs psi pressure) - 6.50 D12 (rear tyres) 32 (lbs psi pressure) - -2 (clicks on front dampers) - 14 (rear dampers) - "10-row radiator fitted - stop due to clutch, g'box and engine but did not complete race"
RACE 3-6-62 - (Type 24 chassis) 948 - 488 - ZF No 1 - TAYLOR - 5.00 D12 30 - 6.50 D12 32 - 18 - 14 - "1/2" tried but discounted - 17/32 new roll bar" - Rtd
1-6-62 - 949 - BRM - Colotti T34 - TAYLOR - 5.00 D12 32 - 6.50 D12 30 - 10 - 15 - "Not used in race"

So the Lotus-BRM taken there was recorded by Team as chassis '949', in which the BRM V8 engine drove through a Colotti T34 gearbox. There was a works Lotus-BRM 24 at Monte Carlo, but it was not used on race day.

Right that's those balls dealt with, now retaking guard for the next delivery... :well:

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 30 April 2012 - 10:33.


#26 rudi

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:51

High exhaust also visible in this photo:


Posted Image

#27 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 15:01

Originally posted by Barry Boor
What a great season in which to fall in love with Grand Prix racing - unless you were a Ferrari fan!


Indeed, a great season...

I know I was pretty starry-eyed about it all, and there was all that new development going on, so many in with a chance, Jack's new car debutted too.

On the subject of using the BRM engine, I guess it was logical for Team Lotus to have their bases covered in case BRM had a significant edge over the Climax as things developed. But for the life of me I cannot remember it being mentioned in any of the reports I read!

Mind you, as mentioned before, my first Motor Sport covered the German GP some three months later.

Another thing a baptism in that year brought was great anticipation of what would happen when the new F1 was announced to be coming in 1966. I guess that announcement came at the end of '63 or the beginning of '64?

Edited by Ray Bell, 30 April 2012 - 15:31.


#28 Roger Clark

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 16:17

I believe that Trevor Taylor drove a 21 at Brussells and Snetterton. See photos in the Autosport reports.

#29 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 17:23

Yes , and at Pau/Aintree/Silverstone non WC he had a Lotus 24 but with 4 cyl. climax !

And at Crystal he actually raced a 24 with the BRM V8.

Edited by Bjorn Kjer, 30 April 2012 - 19:18.


#30 Barry Boor

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 17:57

I can confirm that last fact - I was there.

Then again, what does that prove? :p

#31 Doug Nye

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 18:22

Yeah, yeah, but APART from that...etc

Team Lotus record for 1962 Brussels GP:

RACE 1-4-62 - 948 (a Type 24 chassis serial) - engine 'V8 1' - gearbox ZF No 4 - CLARK .... "Engine broke tappet at 1/2 lap"
RACE 1-4-62 - 949 (a Type 24 chassis serial) - engine '1220' - gearbox Colotti No (sic) - TAYLOR ....

Team Lotus record for 1962 Snetterton:

RACE 14-4-62 - 949 (a Type 24 chassis serial) - engine '1220' - gearbox Colotti T29 - TAYLOR .... "Engine blew up"
RACE 14-4-62 - 948 (a Type 24 chassis serial) - engine 'V8' - gearbox ZF No 6 - CLARK .... "Completed race to 1st - 8,400" (rpm)

Not a 21 in sight on their hand-written contemporary log.

Team Lotus record for 1962 Crystal Palace:

RACE 11-6-62 - 949 (a Type 24 chassis serial) - engine BRM - gearbox Colotti T34 - TAYLOR .... "Should pull 127mph. Actual 115 at 10,000. Clutch throwout mech. Rtd."

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 30 April 2012 - 18:30.


#32 scheivlak

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 18:46

Another thing a baptism in that year brought was great anticipation of what would happen when the new F1 was announced to be coming in 1966. I guess that announcement came at the end of '63 or the beginning of '64?

November 1963 http://atlasf1.autos...b07/mirror.html

#33 Roger Clark

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 22:09

Yes , and at Pau/Aintree/Silverstone non WC he had a Lotus 24 but with 4 cyl. climax !

And at Crystal he actually raced a 24 with the BRM V8.

what is your evidence for Pau, Aintree and Silverstone?

#34 D-Type

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 22:25

The contemporary Motor Sport (DSJ) says that at Brussels Siffert drove a F3 Lotus 22 with a 1.5 litre Ford-Coswarth engine loaned to him by Lotus and that Taylor drove the new car intended for Siffert described as a V8 chassis (ie a 24) with a Climax 4 and 1961 suspension, but later race reports, eg Zandvoort, have Siffert in a Lotus 21. So what did Taylor drive at Brussels?

Edit: Suspension corrected to 1961

Edited by D-Type, 30 April 2012 - 22:49.


#35 Roger Clark

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 22:46

The contemporary Motor Sport (DSJ) says that at Brussels Siffert drove a F3 Lotus 22 with a 1.5 litre Ford-Coswarth engine loaned to him by Lotus and that Taylor drove the new car intended for Siffert described as a V8 chassis (ie a 24) with a Climax 4 and 1962 suspension, but later race reports, eg Zandvoort, have Siffert in a Lotus 21. So what did Taylor drive at Brussels?

It actually says 1961 suspension. The car certainly did have 21 front uprights and the lower engine cover of a 21. It could have been a 24 for all that, I suppose.

#36 D-Type

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 22:55

Whoops! It did say 1961. This all suggests a Lotus 21 except for the reference to a "V8 type chassis".

#37 JtP1

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 01:30

re the Lotus BRM. I have seen a quote where Parnell bought Lotus chassis and Chapman asked him where he would get the Climax engines. Parnell said he was using BRMs and Chapman told him the car would not work with the BRM engine as it was designed for the Climax characteristics.

So following the history of this 62 car. Did the BRM engine actually belong to Siffert? Seems Lotus fit the BRM engine to the chassis and use it as a starting money special until the usually cash strapped Siffert pays for the car? The use and races the car does for Lotus would seem to suggest that.

#38 Roger Clark

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 05:50

http://shop.simonlew...-200-1445-p.asp

This should point to Simon Lewis's site showing Trevor Taylor in the Aintree 200. I can believe that this is a 24 with FPF engine but it is not the same as the car he drove in Brussels and at Snetterton.

#39 Barry Boor

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 05:53

Interesting text accompanies that photo, Roger. I never realised that Trevor WON the Aintree 200 in 1962.

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#40 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 06:46

Post 33 Roger :

John Thomson with Duncan Rabagliati and Dr.K.Paul Sheldon THE FORMULA ONE RECORD BOOK 1961-1965 .

#41 Barry Boor

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:42

Posted on behalf of Roger as pretty clear evidence of what Taylor drove in Brussels:

Posted Image

#42 Roger Clark

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:50

Thanks Barry. I suppose it would be outrageous to think, even for a moment, that Lotus put a 24 chassis number on that car to convince a customer he was getting a 1962 model.

#43 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:14

John Thompson writes :

IV GP de Bruxelles ,1/4 1962 , Trevor Taylor , Lotus 21 Chassis 1961-938 with a 4 cyl. Climax 15th,10th,4th for an overall 10th place.

#44 Allen Brown

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 10:26

Next time you're in a debate with someone and they say "facts are facts" or "you can't argue with factory records", send them to this thread.

#45 Tuboscocca

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 16:52

Posted on behalf of Roger as pretty clear evidence of what Taylor drove in Brussels:

Posted Image



Two more photos in JP Delsaux's Grand Prix de Bruxelles--showing the collision and 'marshals' trying to push the car...

Regards Michael

#46 D-Type

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 19:20

So, was there perhaps a bit of "chassis plate engineering" going on at Team Lotus in early 1962?  ;)

#47 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 20:45

Isn't that what Doug is always telling us?

It does look as though this thread has plenty of 'meat' in it to keep it going for some time...

#48 Doug Nye

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 22:05

Well said Ray...

As a bloke who is always preaching that we should trust the photographic record rather than the written record the words petard and hoist spring to mind...

And as I have bleated elsewhere recently,"if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's almost certainly...." - a Lotus 21.

BUT Trevor's Brussels car is described by DSJ in his 'Motor Sport' report (as pointed out before in this thread) as having comprised "...a V8 type chassis frame with 4-cylinder Coventry Climax engine and Colotti gearbox but with 1961 suspension all round. This special car has been built for the Swiss driver Siffert, who was due to take delivery after the race!". Jenks listed it in his Brussels GP entry table as "New car to special order". However, his notebook used at Brussels includes just this scribbled line on Trevor's car there: "1961 car with Colotti box,sold to Siffert". He then noted in Heat 1 "Taylor gearchange trouble" and in Heat 2 "Taylor struck Mairesse when he spun and came back" and "7 lost wheel" - 7 being Taylor's race number. The photograph from 'Autosport' shows the low-mounted steering arm and track rod of the Lotus 21 suspension - and the body is true 21, no doubt about that. This doesn't change the Type 24 identity noted by Jim Endruweit for Team there - so
maybe what Jenks had plainly been told was correct and it was a new 24 frame. But to be so it would have had to carry Type 21 body panels, as well as the 21 suspension. The standard Type 21 outfit was Climax FPF 4-cyl engine driving through a ZF gearbox, yet here the FPF was mated to a Colotti - again inferring something unusual.

Yet for the following Pau GP - Jenks ignored Snetterton, hem hem - his notebook lists Trevor Taylor's Lotus-Climax 4 as being "new 1962 works car with 4 cyl engine". So would this infer a new car at Pau, or 'the' new car - i.e. 24 frame, 4-cyl FPF engine - at Pau...?

At Brussels Siffert was noted as driving "Lotus-Climax 4' - Climax crossed-out and replaced with 'Ford' then "Junior with Cosworth-Ford 1100 bore Classic crank 1500cc VW box". Jenks always liked Seppi as a real racer, and a tough motor-cycle racer at that, and during practice at Heysel he wrote: "Siffert passing Porsches with Cosworth Junior!".And what did Siffert drive at Pau, since he had been billed as due to take delivery of Trevor's Brussels car after that race? Jenks's notebook lists the Swiss driver's car merely as "Lotus-Climax 4"...inferring the ex-Taylor Brussels 21 or 24/21, whichever it was.

Where John Thompson got his attribution of '938' from I have no idea. If it had been '938' one would expect Team's admittedly sketchy but more or less contemporaneous record keeping to show that number - not the '949' it does in fact show. Considering the technical detail also recorded in these sheets, wilfully entering a dodgy chassis ID makes no sense, since that could merely lead to engineering confusion.

Neither is it a record that would ever expect outside scrutiny, perhaps by the dreaded HM Customs & Excise.

The Lotus Type 24 had a 1-inch longer wheelbase than the Type 21. Type 21 front uprights had a low to mid-level steering arm and track-rod very obvious in the picture of Trevor's car being recovered from the Heysel verge, whereas the Type 24 front uprights had a high-level steering arm and track-rod level with the suspension system's top rocker arm, to minimise airflow disturbance. Trevor's car at Heysel and Snetterton most definitely featured the 21 front suspension, but Team's record keeper considered it to be a 4-cylinder engined 24. The record wouldn't have been shown to Jo Siffert - the customer - and his backer Filipinetti. So who was fooling who? This is a peculiar business - just as I was feeling fat and happy - and thank you Roger for first wielding the shovel.

Ted Walker, photo record, where are you mate?

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 01 May 2012 - 22:55.


#49 Roger Clark

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 22:59

Did the 24 have a different chassis frame at the rear to fit the wider engines?

#50 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:10

Originally posted by Doug Nye
.....Type 21 front uprights had a low to mid-level steering arm and track-rod very obvious in the picture of Trevor's car being recovered from the Heysel verge, whereas the Type 24 front uprights had a high-level steering arm and track-rod level with the suspension system's top rocker arm, to minimise airflow disturbance....


And make it easy to avoid bump steer...

The uprights being from a Triumph Mayflower, if I recall the thread about their makers correctly.