Jump to content


Photo

For the record - 1962 Formula 1


  • Please log in to reply
104 replies to this topic

#51 RCH

RCH
  • Member

  • 791 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 02 May 2012 - 07:18

Triumph Herald surely? Donor of front suspensions to many '60's racers. Of course the Herald may have got 'em from the Mayflower.

Advertisement

#52 Macca

Macca
  • Member

  • 3,327 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:02

Siffert seen at Spa (I think) in 'The Young Racers':
Posted Image

and Trevor Taylor in the International Trophy as seen in 'The Fast Lady':
Posted Image

both filmed in 1962. Unfortunately front suspension details are not visible.

Paul M

edit: and there is this car in the Schlumpf museum, seen also here.

Edited by Macca, 02 May 2012 - 08:17.


#53 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,014 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:38

Here is a previous thread about Alford and Alder uprights, including a remarkable picture of one in post #12

http://forums.autosp...showtopic=71291

#54 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 10,834 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:00

Why does that Lotus in the foreground of the second Schlumpf picture look wrong? It wasn't there in 2009 when I went to the museum.

#55 Alan Cox

Alan Cox
  • Member

  • 7,671 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:14

Why does that Lotus in the foreground of the second Schlumpf picture look wrong? It wasn't there in 2009 when I went to the museum.

Goodyear tyres, floppy exhaust, yellow mirrors, number roundel on nose far too far back?? A few observations for starters.

#56 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 10,834 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:08

I think it may well be the number roundel that is upsetting me. What a sad statement to have to make....

#57 Macca

Macca
  • Member

  • 3,327 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:09

There's not much about it that looks right......including the condition of it.

The engine cover is for a low-exhaust/flat crank car, I think.

Paul M

#58 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 10,834 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:11

I'm wondering how old that picture is.

As the car wasn't there when I visited in September 2009, I wonder if it was away being 'done up'. I am hoping to get over to see my cousin in Alsace later this year and I'm sure we will Schlumpf-it again so I'll check.

#59 PeterElleray

PeterElleray
  • Member

  • 789 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 04 May 2012 - 19:05

Where John Thompson got his attribution of '938' from I have no idea. If it had been '938' one would expect Team's admittedly sketchy but more or less contemporaneous record keeping to show that number - not the '949' it does in fact show. Considering the technical detail also recorded in these sheets, wilfully entering a dodgy chassis ID makes no sense, since that could merely lead to engineering confusion.


DCN


well... in my 40 year old copy of 'The Story of Lotus', by some young chap called Nye, p.40, the Brussels race entries: " the second car was something of a special, with a late series 21 production chassis frame (number 938), a 4cylinder climax mk 2 engine and a colotti 5 speed transmission. Taylor was to drive it in his first european appearance as works number 2, and it was to be delivered to Jo Siffert.... after the race".

does that help sort anything or add more confusion?!

peter

Advertisement

#60 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 8,333 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 04 May 2012 - 19:50

well... in my 40 year old copy of 'The Story of Lotus', by some young chap called Nye, p.40, the Brussels race entries: " the second car was something of a special, with a late series 21 production chassis frame (number 938), a 4cylinder climax mk 2 engine and a colotti 5 speed transmission. Taylor was to drive it in his first european appearance as works number 2, and it was to be delivered to Jo Siffert.... after the race".

does that help sort anything or add more confusion?!

peter


Have we had lunch yet? I would have drawn that serial from the F1 Register's contemporary state of research, i.e. thanks to Duncan Rabagliati, Paul Sheldon and John Thompson, confident that they had drawn it from direct observation or from correspondence Duncan showed me from Team Lotus. To the best of my recollection they addressed the research before I did. I do recall Duncan providing me with roughly printed out listings, and Jenks and Andrew Ferguson of Team confirming them as far as they could. The description would have come from contemporary reports. Which is what makes the conflicting Type 24 chassis number allocation in Team's hand-written record sheet that I have quoted here so curious.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 04 May 2012 - 19:55.


#61 Seppi_0_917PA

Seppi_0_917PA
  • Member

  • 166 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 04 May 2012 - 19:59

938 was discussed in Jim Clark at Ollon-Villars. I remember because this was my 2nd post on TNF and I spent some time re-typing a few paragraphs from the Jacques Deschenaux Siffert book.

#62 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 8,333 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 04 May 2012 - 20:53

938 was discussed in Jim Clark at Ollon-Villars. I remember because this was my 2nd post on TNF and I spent some time re-typing a few paragraphs from the Jacques Deschenaux Siffert book.



http://www.rts.ch/ar...t-et-clark.html

I didn't see this first time round. Fantastic! Thanks for pointing it out Seppi.

DCN

#63 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 8,047 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 04 May 2012 - 22:36

Could it be that the original intention at Team Lotus was to run a 24 with chassis 949 and a 4 cylinder engine at Brussels. But it wasn't ready so at the last minute they substituted the Filipinetti/ Siffert 21/24 but used chassis plate 949 as the carnets and other paper work said "949"? To mollify Siffert/ Filipinetti they produced the 1500cc Ford engine for their Lotus 22 so that Seppi would be able to race.

I do wonder, though ...
... would Seppi's Lotus 22 with a 1.5 litre Ford engine have been over the minimum weight limit? Or perhaps it was never weighed?

Seppi, I loved the interview. i was surprised at JoBo's fluency in French (but I shouldn't have been. Clearly this was before Jimmy's sojourn in Paris - although he seemed to inderstand what was being said in french.

#64 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 8,333 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 04 May 2012 - 23:23

Could it be that the original intention at Team Lotus was to run a 24 with chassis 949 and a 4 cylinder engine at Brussels. But it wasn't ready so at the last minute they substituted the Filipinetti/ Siffert 21/24 but used chassis plate 949 as the carnets and other paper work said "949"? To mollify Siffert/ Filipinetti they produced the 1500cc Ford engine for their Lotus 22 so that Seppi would be able to race...


No advantage to falsify a basic and entirely in-house engineering summary, never to be seen by any Customs officer... While the car might have carried a false ID the team's own record certainly should not have done so...

DCN

#65 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 8,047 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 05 May 2012 - 00:11

I agree. I think what I was trying to say is that the Lotus summary data represents the car they intended sending, but something happened and they had to use the Filipinetti car instead.

#66 Jesper O. Hansen

Jesper O. Hansen
  • Member

  • 577 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 06 May 2012 - 09:51

August 25-26 Grote Prijs van Danske, Roskildering, Copenhagen, Denmark


Sorry for being a bit nitty picking in an another wise very interesting thread, but the danger of repeating information, taking it for granted, has caught up with DCN in this very case. A link to the program covers site: http://www.progcover...kilde620826.jpg
To the best of my understanding it would bee the "Roskilde Ring Grand Prix 1962". To my Danish eyes the Grote Prijs van Danske is Dutch - which to Americans are German! ..so I'm told.

By the way, what are the source of Grote Prijs van Danske?

Jesper

#67 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 8,333 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 06 May 2012 - 11:14

Auto Visie?

DCN

#68 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 4,870 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 06 May 2012 - 11:53

Auto Visie?

DCN


Or the Black Books?



#69 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 06 May 2012 - 15:09

The Black Books call it 'Dänske Grand Prix", which is not far off the programme title

#70 Bjorn Kjer

Bjorn Kjer
  • Member

  • 3,623 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 06 May 2012 - 15:27

It most certainly is !

#71 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,881 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 06 May 2012 - 16:01

Originally posted by David McKinney
The Black Books call it 'Dänske Grand Prix", which is not far off the programme title.


Would you reckon the Melbourne Grand Prix of 1958 was the same as what many would (loosely) term the Melbourne Grand Prix of the present day?

#72 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 06 May 2012 - 16:26

No, but I don't see your point???

#73 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,881 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 06 May 2012 - 16:53

I reckon that "Dänske Grand Prix" would be the "Danish Grand Prix", would it not?

Yet the proper title of the race is the "Roskilde Ring Grand Prix." Rather similar, I think, to calling the "Australian Grand Prix" the "Melbourne Grand Prix."

Or, maybe even calling the "100 Miles Road Race" the "Australian Grand Prix," or the "1936 South Australian Centenary Grand Prix" the "1937 Australian Grand Prix."

#74 Jesper O. Hansen

Jesper O. Hansen
  • Member

  • 577 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 06 May 2012 - 18:14

Had anybody written the "Danish Grand Prix/Det danske Grand Prix" I wouldn't have wondered and looked up the name proper, but there you go..

Jesper

#75 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 06 May 2012 - 18:33

Yet the proper title of the race is the "Roskilde Ring Grand Prix."

Who says?

The programme cover is headed "Rosklide Ring"

On the next line is the meeting title - Grand Prix

It could gave been the Dänske (Danish) GP, as the Black Book says, or the John Player Grand Prix or even the Roskile Ring Grand Prix

You can't judge a race by its cover!


#76 ChrisJson

ChrisJson
  • Member

  • 216 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 06 May 2012 - 18:44

There´s no ä in the danish language.
As Jesper says it´s danske.

#77 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 8,047 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 06 May 2012 - 18:54

If I were compiling a list of races, based on the programme cover I would call it the Roskilde Ring Grand Prix

But I'm not ...

#78 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,881 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 06 May 2012 - 21:29

Of course, David, it could all be a silly mistake...

Is there anyone can better inform us?

#79 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 4,870 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 06 May 2012 - 22:07

Of course, David, it could all be a silly mistake...

Is there anyone can better inform us?

The inside pages of the program may be more help.


Advertisement

#80 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,881 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 06 May 2012 - 22:17

That's very true...

I wonder does anyone have one? Or if the pages are on the 'net somewhere?

#81 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 8,333 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 07 May 2012 - 11:44

You know, to realise that you have been confused for fifty long years is a somewhat chilling realisation. Thinking back, we used to struggle with these Roskilde F1 races, referring to them as 'Roskilde', or 'The Danish GP', or 'The Copenhagen GP'. Few amongst the press attended them. Cheerful ignorance reigned then, and plainly reigns still...or at least, until someone comes up with the programme title, or the original race regulations/entry form...

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 07 May 2012 - 11:49.


#82 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,881 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:11

Or maybe a trophy inscription?

It could be worse, Doug. You could have had an Alfa P3 in the entry list.

#83 Bjorn Kjer

Bjorn Kjer
  • Member

  • 3,623 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 07 May 2012 - 14:32

All 3 "Danish/Copenhagen or Roskilde Ring Grand Prix " are :

1960/61/62 where the programs say : 196X Grand Prix

All are at Roskilde Ring.

Bjørn

PS. The 1960 race of course was an F2.

Edited by Bjorn Kjer, 07 May 2012 - 14:34.


#84 Alan Cox

Alan Cox
  • Member

  • 7,671 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 07 May 2012 - 16:36

You know, to realise that you have been confused for fifty long years is a somewhat chilling realisation. Thinking back, we used to struggle with these Roskilde F1 races, referring to them as 'Roskilde', or 'The Danish GP', or 'The Copenhagen GP'

Autosport's (uncredited) full-page report of the 1962 Roskilde race calls it "The Copenhagen Grand Prix".


#85 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,881 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 07 May 2012 - 22:26

Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer
All 3 "Danish/Copenhagen or Roskilde Ring Grand Prix " are :

1960/61/62 where the programs say : 196X Grand Prix

All are at Roskilde Ring.....


But what we are seeking to confirm, Bjørn, is the actual title of this race...

By what you have written above, it appears that the titles:

Copenhagen Grand Prix

Danish Grand Prix

Roskilde Ring Grand Prix

all applied to one year or another. Which is possible and very interesting to contemplate how that would have come about.

This race, the 1962 ???? Grand Prix is the one in question at the moment, but if other names applied to other races could you please advise?

Edited by Ray Bell, 07 May 2012 - 22:27.


#86 Bjorn Kjer

Bjorn Kjer
  • Member

  • 3,623 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 08 May 2012 - 04:32

The 3 suggestions (plus the silly "Dutch" version) are/were used by the "press" ,

The program says : 1962 Grand Prix.

#87 cedricselzer

cedricselzer
  • Member

  • 67 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 08 May 2012 - 07:00

Jenks is correct. I looked after Trevor Taylor's car at Brussels. The car did in fact have a 24 rear end from the seat back rearwards. The engine was installed vertically not like the 21. The car was not finished when we arrived at Brussels and the engine not even run up in the car. I remember we had a major problem bleeding the water system due to the vertical installation. The 24 at Pau was yet another panic. From a bare chassis it was built over 3 days and 2 nights without sleep. The engine in this car was also installed vertically.

On another matter. I was always under the impression that FWMV (V8) engines started with 499. I know that Doug acquired Jim Endreweit's records and shows that this was not the case. I will look into it.

The BRM 24 at Team Lotus had 8 separate exhaust pipes pointing skywards. Actually most the time they had 6 or 7 as they kept on breaking.
Cedric Selzer

#88 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 8,333 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 08 May 2012 - 10:19

Fantastic - glad you have weighed in Cedric, I was about to contact you separately. I think the V8 identities recorded were simply whatever figure stamps spotted at a glance, once the initial 'V8-1' assumption had been surpassed, i.e. this is the first V8 we've run, so '-1' will do, we all know what we're talking about...

DCN

#89 cedricselzer

cedricselzer
  • Member

  • 67 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 08 May 2012 - 13:37

Doug. I should have written 949. I spoke to Tony M today. He said there were some experimental engines with different numbers. He will send you his records direct.

Cedric

#90 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 8,333 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 08 May 2012 - 14:37

Crikey! I have never had the cheek to ask him.

DCN

#91 Jack-the-Lad

Jack-the-Lad
  • Member

  • 1,392 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 08 May 2012 - 22:50

^^^...

...Only on TNF!

:clap:

#92 jj2728

jj2728
  • Member

  • 2,783 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 08 May 2012 - 23:14

^^^...

...Only on TNF!

:clap:


seconded.... :up:

#93 Bjorn Kjer

Bjorn Kjer
  • Member

  • 3,623 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 15 May 2012 - 19:04

The official name of the F1 race in Danmark in 1962 at the Roskilde Ring was : Grand Prix 1962

However , in the program under entries was written "Danske Grand Prix 1962" . This may have continued the name confusion from 1960 & 61 as Autosport , Motoring News , and books on Moss and Brasbham prove.

Hope this is clear now , with the help of Morten Alstrup (TNF member) , and the President of the Danish Automobile Sports Club (DASU).

Bjørn Kjer or Bjorn Kjer

Edited by Bjorn Kjer, 15 May 2012 - 19:06.


#94 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,881 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 15 May 2012 - 22:36

And that one was a definite "Only on TNF!"

Thank you Bjørn...

#95 Jesper O. Hansen

Jesper O. Hansen
  • Member

  • 577 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 16 May 2012 - 15:01

seconded.... :up:


Looking at the programme cover, I would maintain that it was the "Roskilde Ring Grand Prix 1962". Bjørn, do you have any access as to how the Danish contemporary press referred to the race?

Jesper

#96 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 4,870 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 16 May 2012 - 15:11

Bjørn, can you post a scan of the entry page where it says 'Danske Grand Prix 1962'. That should settle this.

#97 Jesper O. Hansen

Jesper O. Hansen
  • Member

  • 577 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 16 May 2012 - 15:22

But what we are seeking to confirm, Bjørn, is the actual title of this race...

By what you have written above, it appears that the titles:

Copenhagen Grand Prix

Danish Grand Prix

Roskilde Ring Grand Prix

all applied to one year or another. Which is possible and very interesting to contemplate how that would have come about.

This race, the 1962 ???? Grand Prix is the one in question at the moment, but if other names applied to other races could you please advise?


A "Copenhagen Cup" (using the original English spelling of the title) was held at Roskilde Ring, but always for their late May/early June meeting. This may explain the confusion about the Grand Prix, held in August.

What ever Bjørn Kjær, DASU and Morten Alstrup says, I'd still say it was the "Roskilde Ring Grand Prix 1962".

Jesper

#98 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,881 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 16 May 2012 - 21:12

It appears to me that going further into this issue will take this thread away from its original purpose...

However, there's obviously a lot of interest in the Danish events over these years, so perhaps a fresh thread could investigate all of these questions?

Do we want Bjørn to start it, or will someone else start it and allow him free rein to pursue the connections he has and whomever else to come in and better inform us?

#99 Bjorn Kjer

Bjorn Kjer
  • Member

  • 3,623 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 17 May 2012 - 09:26

Done!

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=167759

Advertisement

#100 raceannouncer2003

raceannouncer2003
  • Member

  • 2,225 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 17 September 2012 - 20:49

September 16 was the 50th anniversary of Graham Hill's win in the 1962 Italian Grand Prix driving BRM.

Vince H.