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2013 Silly Season


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#1351 Anderis

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 12:11

What makes comparison difficult though is that at many races Trulli was affected by reliability (mainly hydraulics) problems right from the start, whereas Kovalainen's car was fine. In that case you can only look at qualifying, in which Trulli thrashed Kovalainen.

I agree the comparison may be tough. But I don't agree with the statement that Kovalainen was trashed.

In fact, Trulli was performing better in qualifying in the second half of the 2010, but he was not trashing Kovalainen. In the last 8 races of the season, he beat Kovalainen by more than 3 tenths only once, and by more than 2 tenths only twice. I insist it wasn't trashing.

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#1352 TFLB

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 12:16

I agree the comparison may be tough. But I don't agree with the statement that Kovalainen was trashed.

In fact, Trulli was performing better in qualifying in the second half of the 2010, but he was not trashing Kovalainen. In the last 8 races of the season, he beat Kovalainen by more than 3 tenths only once, and by more than 2 tenths only twice. I insist it wasn't trashing.

Okay, maybe it wasn't a thrashing, but still it was a pretty convincing beating.

#1353 Anderis

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 12:30

In Belgium, the effect of Kovalainen's two extra stops was wiped out by the safety car, and Trulli spun (or was hit, I can't remember) right after the restart. He had been in front.

He had been in front because of Kovalainen's two unnecessary pit stops. He had spun the car due to his own mistake so it's not the right excuse. It was pretty much inconclusive race but Kovalainen coped better in the last couple of laps and finished in front deservedly.

Japan: Trulli was behind, but not by far and he had a big hydraulic problem in the final laps which made him slow down.

But he was still behind...

Singapore: Kovalainen was ahead but not by much, and Trulli may have finished ahead if not for yet more bad luck.

Maybe yes, maybe no. The only fact here is that he was not leading Kovalainen when his problems started.

You can say the same for most races of 2010: Trulli was stronger, but was far more unlucky.

While Trulli was undoubtely more unlucky, the claim that he was stronger isn't obvious. And while the fact who of them was better could be arguable, Trulli certainly didn't trash Kovalainen and I can see no point in discussing it for any longer.

#1354 TFLB

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 12:49

He had been in front because of Kovalainen's two unnecessary pit stops. He had spun the car due to his own mistake so it's not the right excuse. It was pretty much inconclusive race but Kovalainen coped better in the last couple of laps and finished in front deservedly.


But he was still behind...


Maybe yes, maybe no. The only fact here is that he was not leading Kovalainen when his problems started.


While Trulli was undoubtely more unlucky, the claim that he was stronger isn't obvious. And while the fact who of them was better could be arguable, Trulli certainly didn't trash Kovalainen and I can see no point in discussing it for any longer.

Well, I disagree, but this isn't really relevant to the silly season is it? So let's leave it here.

#1355 Rentta

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 12:49

Okay, maybe it wasn't a thrashing, but still it was a pretty convincing beating.

I don't agree at all . I just checked quali results from 2010 and they were pretty much evenly matched .

#1356 UPRC

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 12:57

I still don't understand Hulkenberg's move. Not that I doubt it, I just can't wrap my head around it. It's not really a move up or down the grid, but more of a move to the side.

#1357 korzeniow

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 13:34

I still don't understand Hulkenberg's move. Not that I doubt it, I just can't wrap my head around it. It's not really a move up or down the grid, but more of a move to the side.


Number of podiums:
Sauber: 4
Force India: 0

I don't think anyone considers FI as better (bigger) team than Sauber.

Sauber have the best wind tunel, at least many people claim so. They compete in F1 for 19 years. They scored a win and multiple podiums in BMW era. BWM left after upgrading many facilities like CFD.

Don't forget Force India could be in financial troubles next season.

If it was fro me to choose I would go for Sauber anytime

Edited by korzeniow, 17 October 2012 - 13:34.


#1358 Trust

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 13:52

I still don't understand Hulkenberg's move. Not that I doubt it, I just can't wrap my head around it. It's not really a move up or down the grid, but more of a move to the side.

Maybe Hulkenberg saw that no one ever gets promoted from FI, whereas in Sauber often someone is promoted to top team.

#1359 korzeniow

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 14:32

Maybe Hulkenberg saw that no one ever gets promoted from FI, whereas in Sauber often someone is promoted to top team.


You must have forgotten about Fisichella

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#1360 Trust

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 14:36

You must have forgotten about Fisichella

Where did Fisichella get promotion?

#1361 CrossF1

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 14:39

Where did Fisichella get promotion?


To Ferrari.

#1362 TFLB

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 14:40

It seems to me that Hulkenburg is wisely jumping a doomed ship before it sinks.

#1363 dau

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 14:43

To Ferrari.

To Ferrari's retirement home.

#1364 F1ultimate

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 14:43

You must have forgotten about Fisichella


Well the circumstances were extenuating. Where is the chap now? It's not like teams like Mclaren, Red Bull, Williams, Renault or even Ferrari themselves have been chasing him for a seat.

#1365 Trust

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 14:44

To Ferrari.

That's not a promotion.

#1366 jals99

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 15:05

In Belgium, the effect of Kovalainen's two extra stops was wiped out by the safety car, and Trulli spun (or was hit, I can't remember) right after the restart. He had been in front.
In Brazil Trulli had a hydraulics problem, but still finished right behind Kovalainen.
In Abu Dhabi Trulli had a front wing problem from the beginning.
Japan: Trulli was behind, but not by far and he had a big hydraulic problem in the final laps which made him slow down.
Singapore: Kovalainen was ahead but not by much, and Trulli may have finished ahead if not for yet more bad luck.
Hungary: Trulli's strategy was screwed by the safty car.

You can say the same for most races of 2010: Trulli was stronger, but was far more unlucky.

In Japan, Trulli was also screwed by strategy, could easily finished in front without hydraulic problems
In Bahrain Jarno was clearly ahead, when hydraulic problems started
In Canada Jarno also was clearly faster

In 2011 although Trulli lost in quals,he was always close or ahead in races before Korea.
Australia - Jarno was on prime in first stint, then Heikki retired
Malaysia -Jarno spun in the beginning, but he stayed in Kova's pace before retirement
Turkey- Trulli finished ahead
Spain -was ahead by 15 seconds, when Kova crashed
Monaco -was clearly ahead, Heikki cut gap with the help of safety car
Canada -Jarno was ahead, Heikki retired, Jarno had problems.
Valencia -they were close during the race on different strategy, Heikki just had the edge due two 3 stops in the end
Belgium -Trulli was clearly ahead
Monza-Trulli win qual, lost to Kova in start, but was hit by Massa, then he was quicker during the race despite another strategy
Singapore - stayed ahead, but then was hit by Jaime
Suzuka-ran close during all race
Then in Korea and Abu Dhabi Trulli lost a lot to Kova, but in India he was hit by Narain in 1 lpa, and in Brazil it was again different strategy.




#1367 King Six

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 15:29

Number of podiums:
Sauber: 4
Force India: 0

I don't think anyone considers FI as better (bigger) team than Sauber.

Sauber have the best wind tunel, at least many people claim so. They compete in F1 for 19 years. They scored a win and multiple podiums in BMW era. BWM left after upgrading many facilities like CFD.

Don't forget Force India could be in financial troubles next season.

If it was fro me to choose I would go for Sauber anytime

Nobody is saying Force India is better, just that it's not much of a move anyway. Although yes, Sauber traditionally have had links with Ferrari and you've got a better chance of joining them with Sauber than any other midfield team.

Besides, two seasons in a row Force India beat Sauber, and nobody said anything, now Sauber are beating Force India and people are loving to bring up the comparison and talk about how Sauber are a great team etc.. just smacks of cherrypicking the statistics when it serves them well.


#1368 TFLB

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 15:46

Nobody is saying Force India is better, just that it's not much of a move anyway. Although yes, Sauber traditionally have had links with Ferrari and you've got a better chance of joining them with Sauber than any other midfield team.

Besides, two seasons in a row Force India beat Sauber, and nobody said anything, now Sauber are beating Force India and people are loving to bring up the comparison and talk about how Sauber are a great team etc.. just smacks of cherrypicking the statistics when it serves them well.

Sauber have much better facilities than FI, and have more stable ownership. Sauber's problems over the last few years can probably be put down to the chaos caused by BMW's withdrawal, but now everything is sorted, it would take a brave man to bet on them being regularly beaten by Force India in the future.

#1369 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:19

Perhaps Bottas isn't a certainty for next season as lack of mileage could hold his debut back a year;

Asked by AUTOSPORT if he'd had enough testing to make the step, Bottas said: "Well it's the most you can get really so it has to be enough and in the end you just have to have your first race at some point. And then you see where you are.

"But if you asked me would I be ready to race; definitely. I feel I want to have my first race soon.

"I also feel this second half of the season... because this season I have not been driving as much because I am not racing anywhere else... the second half has been a bit more difficult because I am just spending such a little time in the car in the end.

"So definitely I feel it is time to get more laps in."

Bottas added that he would consider racing in another category next season if he failed to secure a race seat in F1.

"Yeah, I would think I would have to," said the former GP3 Series champion. "Because two seasons driving as little as now I think would be too much.

"GP2 is a good option, but the only thing with GP2 is that then you are not allowed to drive on the Fridays with F1... so, but I hope we don't need to look at that. Definitely the priority is to the race seat for Formula 1."



#1370 stewie

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 10:02

Maybe Bottas should do a year in FR3.5 if he doesn't get a F1 seat next year - in conjunction with the FP1 sessions of course.

#1371 SPBHM

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 10:08

wouldn't GP2 be better?
or a seat on the HRT (like Ricciardo did..)

#1372 stewie

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 10:13

With GP2 you loose the FP1 sessions so I suppose it's a case of what the worst scenario is. Thankfully FR3.5 seems pretty good. Williams could pay one of the lower teams to take Bottas but realistically how much point is there driving around in an HRT all season?

#1373 King Six

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 11:53

Ricciardo got that HRT seat because he's got Red Bull backing him. You need money for a HRT seat. I don't think that's an option for Bottas...

#1374 Francesc

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 11:57

Perhaps Bottas isn't a certainty for next season as lack of mileage could hold his debut back a year;


Lack of money I would say.

#1375 TFLB

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:44

wouldn't GP2 be better?
or a seat on the HRT (like Ricciardo did..)

He couldn't do GP2 if Williams still want him to drive in FP1.

#1376 BackmarkerUK

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:53

wouldn't GP2 be better?
or a seat on the HRT (like Ricciardo did..)


Aside from the aforementioned FP1 clash, FR3.5 had a better grid this year than GP2, and with DRS on the new cars it's more relevant to F1 than ever.

#1377 RealRacing

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 17:05

With Massa's renewal at Ferrari, 2014 is now the interesting scenario.

I think Vettel may have performance-based agreements with RBR and Ferrari (maybe even others), just to allow him to jump ship to the best possible car. If, for some reason, RBR start to slip vs. the other top teams and if Ferrari build a better car, he may eventually go there (also provided he can be satisfied that both drivers will have equal status as he has hinted). Alonso looks set to finish his contract (career?) at Ferrari but I think it also depends on whether he wins this year's championship. If he doesn't, although there's mutual love between the team and him, anything can be expected from Ferrari if they don't manage to win. If they end up pulling a Kimi on ALonso and hiring Vettel before the end of FA's contract, where will FA go and who would take his Ferrari seat?

Hamilton is another interesting variable. I am pretty sure he must also have a performance clause at Mercedes. Suppose 2013 is a disaster, could he go to RBR either alongside Vettel if he stays, or with a new teammate if Webber retires (Kimi, Alonso even?).

What about McLaren? If their bet of JB and SP does not pay dividends, will they try to lure one of the big 3 again? However, in their case, LH and FA are probably discarded and Vettel has never been mentioned in relation with McLaren. Kimi?

In any case, it should be pretty exciting, an even bigger shakeout than 2013...

Edited by RealRacing, 19 October 2012 - 17:07.


#1378 King Six

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 22:37

Ricciardo/Vergne haven't really impressed. But no doubt Ricciardo will get the backing from the Anglo world/British media because of his Australian identity. They might just luck into a Red Bull seat by the time Webber retires. But if I was Red Bull I'd probably look outside of their driver programme...

#1379 scheivlak

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 22:44

Ricciardo/Vergne haven't really impressed. But no doubt Ricciardo will get the backing from the Anglo world/British media because of his Australian identity. They might just luck into a Red Bull seat by the time Webber retires. But if I was Red Bull I'd probably look outside of their driver programme...

Robin Frijns will get a chance to try the Red Bull RB8 anyway at Abu Dhabi as a result of his FR 3.5 campaign - whether he wins the title or not.
It will be interesting to see what impression he can make.

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#1380 BackmarkerUK

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 23:05

Robin Frijns will get a chance to try the Red Bull RB8 anyway at Abu Dhabi as a result of his FR 3.5 campaign - whether he wins the title or not.
It will be interesting to see what impression he can make.


Good chance for him to show up the RBJT drivers, given that he turned down the offer to join the team earlier this year. :up: Though in reality he'll probably end up with a slower time than Antonio Felix da Costa.

#1381 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 23:14

Ricciardo/Vergne haven't really impressed. But no doubt Ricciardo will get the backing from the Anglo world/British media because of his Australian identity. But if I was Red Bull I'd probably look outside of their driver programme...

Lol, no doubt JEV will get the backing from the Franco world/media. What does it matter who the British media back for a potential F1 seat? Red Bull have their own ambitions for driver targets that aren't decided by what the media think. Besides Hamilton (if the Mercedes 2013 car is atrocious), Di Resta and any other British driver in F1 will have media backing before Ricciardo. No different to any other national media.

I agree with you about Red Bull looking elsewhere, JEV and Ricciardo aren't too impressive or look like future superstars. They may well end up being good drivers, but don't look good enough to lead a WDC challenging team. Perhaps a Hulkenberg, Kobayashi or Maldonado - if he continues to keep calm like the last few races - could end up at Red Bull if they look at alternatives.

Edited by TheUltimateWorrier, 21 October 2012 - 00:16.


#1382 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 15:01

Don't know about this Kimi Red Bull deal for 2014. Let's not forget he's heading for age 35 at that point. Not an age where Red Bull can invest in. I'd say it's more likely, if Vettel goes at all, it will be Ricciardo or Vergne to step in. Don't see Raikkonen mentoring one of those two anyway, so.

#1383 D.M.N.

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 15:01

Posts removed, this thread is to discuss the remaining 2013 driver seats, not 2014 and beyond. Thanks.

#1384 RealRacing

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 15:24

Posts removed, this thread is to discuss the remaining 2013 driver seats, not 2014 and beyond. Thanks.


Would it not be nice to separate the thread and open a 2014 one?

#1385 lustigson

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 18:20

Would it not be nice to separate the thread and open a 2014 one?

I'll do that, indeed.

#1386 Sakae

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:38

It's great fun to read this thread from its inception.

#1387 jals99

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 13:48

Petrov's manager just told Vitaly will remain in F1 with 99% possibility, there are talks with Caterham and 2 other teams

#1388 lustigson

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 14:05

Petrov's manager just told Vitaly will remain in F1 with 99% possibility, there are talks with Caterham and 2 other teams

I'm not surprised, I have to admit. Even though he brings sponsorship, Petrov isn't a bad driver.

#1389 BackmarkerUK

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 14:17

Petrov's manager just told Vitaly will remain in F1 with 99% possibility, there are talks with Caterham and 2 other teams


Marussia and HRT? Maybe Force India?

#1390 jals99

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 14:27

Marussia and HRT? Maybe Force India?

She excluded Marussia and HRT

#1391 Lennat

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 14:37

Good for him, he deserves to be on the grid in my opinion.

#1392 SUPRAF1

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 14:42

Didn't Alguersuari say a few weeks ago that he was sure he'll be driving in F1 next year, and that he was going to make an announcement very soon? What happened to that? :S

#1393 BackmarkerUK

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 15:06

She excluded Marussia and HRT


In which case I would say that two teams excluding Marussia and HRT is pushing it. Force India and who? Sauber? Seems fairly nailed on that the line-up there will be Hulkenberg-Gutierrez, unless Kobayashi rustles up some sponsors. Williams to replace Senna? Force India, Marussia and HRT seem the only realistic options available to Petrov outside Caterham to me.

#1394 Collective

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 15:09

Didn't Alguersuari say a few weeks ago that he was sure he'll be driving in F1 next year, and that he was going to make an announcement very soon? What happened to that? :S

He then started to follow Force India on Twitter after a second interview where he admitted he didn't have anything signed yet. So... no word yet.

#1395 Anja

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 16:34

"Remain in F1" doesn't necessarily sound to me like he'll have a race seat. Maybe just as a third driver.

Edited by Anja, 22 October 2012 - 16:34.


#1396 jals99

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 16:39

"Remain in F1" doesn't necessarily sound to me like he'll have a race seat. Maybe just as a third driver.

She told Vitaly will be in Sochi as a race driver


#1397 dau

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 16:44

She told Vitaly will be in Sochi as a race driver

So she's talking about 2014?

#1398 jals99

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 19:03

So she's talking about 2014?

She can't be sure about 2014 without 2013



#1399 Anderis

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 19:10

She can't be sure about 2014 without 2013

But it could be a 3rd driver role for 2013 as a part of a deal which would guarantee Petrov to be a race driver for 2014.

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#1400 lustigson

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 20:56

But it could be a 3rd driver role for 2013 as a part of a deal which would guarantee Petrov to be a race driver for 2014.

Which sounds perfectly reasonable, although I wonder which team that could be. Force India, Sauber, Williams? Or simply Caterham?