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2013 Silly Season


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#1551 Vesuvius

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:59

Force India said Heikki is option for them and they described him as a superdriver: Force India: Heikki is a candidate for next year.

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#1552 DrF

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 00:12

Is Grosjean definitely driving for Lotus next year or are we just going on what his fat manager says?

If they've got any sense, they should re-hire Heikki. Romaine's an excellent driver and would be very good as a third driver, but he just gets into too many scrapes. He's had his chance.


#1553 SPBHM

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 00:21

I respect Kovalainen for not starting to collect money in order to get a seat. Who remembers the massive work Rubens did last year in vain?


well, I respect Rubens for trying his best to keep the seat :confused:
but I think Bruno had 3x the amount of money?!

Kovalainen needs to at lest outperform Petrov clearly and consistently, I think he may have done that during the last race, but he failed to do in some occasions this year,


#1554 aray

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:31

Is Grosjean definitely driving for Lotus next year or are we just going on what his fat manager says?

If they've got any sense, they should re-hire Heikki. Romaine's an excellent driver and would be very good as a third driver, but he just gets into too many scrapes. He's had his chance.

Hekki had more chances...in a top team too....
Grosjean is better and more deserving as of now despite his incident-affinity.... :up:

#1555 Wander

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:04

Hekki had more chances...in a top team too....
Grosjean is better and more deserving as of now despite his incident-affinity.... :up:


That is arguable. Kovalainen scored a better percentage of Hamilton's points in 2008 than Grosjean has compared to Kimi right now. And if I remember right, Kovy had his fair share of bad luck on top of clearly being the number 2 in the team.

E: Not to mention that Kovalainen is likely better now than he was in 2008-2009, but this is obviously something that I can't prove.

Edited by Wander, 05 November 2012 - 05:06.


#1556 jals99

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:15

well, I respect Rubens for trying his best to keep the seat :confused:
but I think Bruno had 3x the amount of money?!

Kovalainen needs to at lest outperform Petrov clearly and consistently, I think he may have done that during the last race, but he failed to do in some occasions this year,

You are right, one race did not change anything, Vitaly is leading Kova 8-7 on races in the cource of the season


#1557 Shiroo

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:56

You are right, one race did not change anything, Vitaly is leading Kova 8-7 on races in the cource of the season

Though I believe it isnt the smae Petrov that lost like 17-2 vs Kubica. he improved, by a lot. And people still rate him low, though for me he had better season at Lotus than Senna/Heidfeld

#1558 jals99

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:12

Though I believe it isnt the smae Petrov that lost like 17-2 vs Kubica. he improved, by a lot. And people still rate him low, though for me he had better season at Lotus than Senna/Heidfeld

That's because Petrov has the image of pay driver with big money from the 1-st race, partly fault of his manager, who told a lot about money from the 1-st race. But he deserved his place in F1 on sporting results alone by being vice-champion of GP2, he deserved it more than Kobayashi for example, who was only 16-th.
Terrible first season did not help, but then he improved a lot, and this year is showing himself better driver then Kovalainen, beating him usually in races. And thats without two years in the team, with joining team in last moment after first tests in a car , which was not built for him,and his engineer was changed mid year from experienced Pisanello(who became chief engineer) to young guy. And he still beats Kova, and he deserved place in teams like FI more than his Finnish teammate

Edited by jals99, 05 November 2012 - 08:12.


#1559 Wander

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:50

Saying that Petrov is beating Kovalainen usually in the races is a misconception.

Of the races they've both finished, Petrov is up 9-7 head to head, but these have been influenced heavily by all kinds of car failures. Off the top of my head I remember that Kovalainen lost KERS in India after the first pit stop when he was ahead of Petrov (and had been slightly quicker until that point). I can also remember a few punctures... But that's not even very relevant! I'm sure Petrov has had his fair share of failures too, I was just trying to say that their head-to-head statistics are too close to say that one of them has been beating the other one "usually in the races".

There are a few other ways to compare the two, by the way:

Kovalainen is ahead of Petrov in the championship standings
If they gave points the same way for positions 11-20 as they now do for 1-10, Kovalainen would still be ahead in the championship standings. (126-103)
Qualifying head to head is 12-6 for Kovalainen.

Conclusion:
I think it's far-fetched to say that he has shown himself a better driver than Kovalainen.

And as for Kobayashi, he got his place in F1, because he was impressive as a replacement, coming in with no experience. Toyota ties were of course needed to get the replacement drive in the first place, but Kobayashi was more impressive in F1 in his first season than Petrov by comparison anyway and GP2 results aren't worth shit at that point.

But for Petrov to have been so close to Kovalainen this year, yes, I agree that he has improved. In my books, he has almost matched Heikki, and I suppose that's pretty good. The bad thing for both these drivers is that they indeed both had theír shot at a bigger team and they both blew it. It could be that they are both now doing much better, but how would we know?

Edited by Wander, 05 November 2012 - 17:15.


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#1560 Shiroo

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:23

well I still rate Petrov as solid midfield driver. Should get a chance in midfield teams of likes FI or Williams instead of Senna or to get 2nd seat at FI. I believe he could beat DiResta in FI, or even Maldonado in Williams (Petrov is not the same mistake prone as he was in 1st year, he is rather calm now and do what he is supposed to do, when he see that there might be a incident, he is firm but knows when to give up, and attack in next lap, not like Maldo for example).

He improved by a lot, and I believe he is a better driver than Vergne, Senna (didnt Senna lose vs Petrov?), and few other drivers on the grid that are in better teams than Petrov.

Sadly people rate him only thru his money, he once responded quite well to that: That Alonso is also pay driver (Santander). Hopefully he will get a better seat one day.


#1561 chris72

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 13:10

well I still rate Petrov as solid midfield driver. Should get a chance in midfield teams of likes FI or Williams instead of Senna or to get 2nd seat at FI. I believe he could beat DiResta in FI, or even Maldonado in Williams (Petrov is not the same mistake prone as he was in 1st year, he is rather calm now and do what he is supposed to do, when he see that there might be a incident, he is firm but knows when to give up, and attack in next lap, not like Maldo for example).

He improved by a lot, and I believe he is a better driver than Vergne, Senna (didnt Senna lose vs Petrov?), and few other drivers on the grid that are in better teams than Petrov.

Sadly people rate him only thru his money, he once responded quite well to that: That Alonso is also pay driver (Santander). Hopefully he will get a better seat one day.

Kovalainen has one big advantage over Petrov and that is his qualification speed. He is 13-5 in qualification standings and often out-qualifies Petrov by several tenths. In Caterham that hasn't been an issue since that car has been in no man's land and usual outcome has been positions 19 and 20 for them. But in tightly packed midfield few tenths can easily be 5 positions on the grid. That can easily change the outcome of the race.

#1562 Vesuvius

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:08

Kovalainen has one big advantage over Petrov and that is his qualification speed. He is 13-5 in qualification standings and often out-qualifies Petrov by several tenths. In Caterham that hasn't been an issue since that car has been in no man's land and usual outcome has been positions 19 and 20 for them. But in tightly packed midfield few tenths can easily be 5 positions on the grid. That can easily change the outcome of the race.


This :up: it would be several places between them in midfield teams and as their race pace is similar, petrov would have difficulties to be no where near Heikki and Heikki is also one of the best starters of the grid.Petrov is not a bad driver at all, he did better than his more experienced team mate Heidfeld and I think he is underrated very much just likely Heikki is in many peoples eyes.

#1563 lustigson

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 18:44

I wonder what this thread is about :rolleyes:

#1564 Collective

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 21:48

I wonder what this thread is about :rolleyes:

Oh C'mon! A simple five post reading leaves no doubt this is the Petrov vs Kovalainen scorecard.

#1565 lustigson

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 21:49

Oh C'mon! A simple five post reading leaves no doubt this is the Petrov vs Kovalainen scorecard.

Ah, thanks. :blush: :lol:

#1566 bonneville

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 22:24

Ah, thanks. :blush: :lol:


Seriously though, what have we got left to figure?

Grosjean's seat @ Lotus
Senna's seat @ Williams
Koba's seat @ Sauber
Both seats @ Force India, Caterham
Pic's seat @ Marussia
Karthikeyan's seat @ HRT

I only wish Boullier had the business acumen to put Kamui in that second seat!

#1567 race addicted

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 22:26

...and both Caterham-seats.
Btw, it's 90% sure there's nothing to figure out around Senna's Williams-seat. It's Bottas'.

Edited by race addicted, 05 November 2012 - 22:27.


#1568 William Hunt

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 23:06

I wouldn't be surprised if Senna is considered by Caterham. He brings sponsor money and he has proven that he is a reliable driver who can score points (9 top 10 finishes already this season) so he fits their profile.

#1569 Wander

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 05:53

I wouldn't be surprised if Senna is considered by Caterham. He brings sponsor money and he has proven that he is a reliable driver who can score points (9 top 10 finishes already this season) so he fits their profile.


I agree. Kovalainen might be the better driver, but that is hardly useful for Caterham unless they can get to the mid-pack. They obviously thought that they would be there by now, but with their recent trajectory, I have a hard time seeing them being much better next year.

#1570 Anderis

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:02

From what I know, Senna is actually considered by Caterham.

#1571 Shiroo

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:13

From what I know, Senna is actually considered by Caterham.

whyyyy. Why they all go after money. He is so slow during qualifications that it is painful to watch, like Barcelona, his teammate PP he goes, and he will go 18. sweet god, similar in last race. He is probably the worst driver in F1

#1572 race addicted

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:21

I agree. Kovalainen might be the better driver, but that is hardly useful for Caterham unless they can get to the mid-pack. They obviously thought that they would be there by now, but with their recent trajectory, I have a hard time seeing them being much better next year.


...and I agree as well. Senna is the opposite of Kovalainen when it comes to where his speed is better, but their ability to appease sponsors is very good for both. A pairing of Petrov/Senna would make sense for Caterham next year, but I don't know where they're going with van der Garde? I have the impression Caterham, together with Force India, is the team with most names being linked with them; Kovalainen and Petrov obviously, but also Pic and GvdG, and perhaps Alguersuari.,

#1573 noikeee

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:36

Saward: Ma Qing Hua signs for HRT

http://joesaward.wor...-signs-for-hrt/

God help us. According to his driverdb profile he's never won a single openwheel race at any level: http://www.driverdb....-hua-ma/career/ . Is this the new golden era of paydrivers? Jean-Denis Deletraz called, he wants to know how much is a seat.

#1574 Showty

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:54

Saward: Ma Qing Hua signs for HRT

http://joesaward.wor...-signs-for-hrt/

God help us. According to his driverdb profile he's never won a single openwheel race at any level: http://www.driverdb....-hua-ma/career/ . Is this the new golden era of paydrivers? Jean-Denis Deletraz called, he wants to know how much is a seat.



http://www.chinadail...nt_15882973.htm

China finally has its first Formula One driver.

Ma Qinghua, a 24 year-old man from Shanghai, will represent the Spanish team HRT for F1's 2013 racing season, the team announced at a press conference in Shanghai on Tuesday afternoon, Tencent's sports channel reported.



#1575 prpr

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:13

The outcome of the young driver test in Dubai, starting today, will be interesting. Robert Frijns and Gutierrez will be driving for Sauber. Frijins is a year-one champion in three junior formulae (even if his Formula Renault 3.5 title was achieved in controversial circumstances). If he is considerably faster than Gutierrez, could Sauber do a Raikkonen on him and sign him on a long-term race deal, and hope to sell him on to a bigger team in the future? He doesn't have any money, so it would be a gamble for Sauber.

Frijins is also in action for Red Bull on the final day, so his time in that car may be the real indicator of his potential. Antonio Felix da Costa was also a multiple race winner in FR3.5 this year, and finished fourth in the championship after coming in late in the season. He will be driving the Red Bull on the first two days in Dubai, and may also shine as a potential future F1 star.

Could the Dubai test unearth the next Schumacher/Raikkonen/Hamilton/Vettel?

#1576 encircled

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:24

HRT denies Ma will be racing for 2013

HRT has told GPUpdate.net that Ma Qing Hua has not been confirmed as a race driver for the 2013 Formula 1 season, countering reports emerging in the Chinese press.

“This is not true,” an HRT spokesperson told GPUpdate.net. “The press conference wasn't such thing, but a tribute paid by the Chinese authorities to Ma for what he's achieved this season (as reserve driver). That was it.”



#1577 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:33

The outcome of the young driver test in Dubai, starting today, will be interesting. Robert Frijns and Gutierrez will be driving for Sauber. Frijins is a year-one champion in three junior formulae (even if his Formula Renault 3.5 title was achieved in controversial circumstances). If he is considerably faster than Gutierrez, could Sauber do a Raikkonen on him and sign him on a long-term race deal, and hope to sell him on to a bigger team in the future? He doesn't have any money, so it would be a gamble for Sauber.

Even if he impresses I can't see Frijns in a race seat until 2014, unless Sauber sign him then loan him to whoever. The Slims want Gutierrez on the grid next year, and it seems like it's only a matter of time until their wish is granted.

#1578 lustigson

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:54

... I can't see Frijns in a race seat until 2014...

If you ask me, I'd say Frijns would be better off doing a season or 2 in GP2, before stepping up to F1. I remember too well Verstappen's early baptism — albeit due to Lehto's crash in pre-season testing — throwing him in at the deep end.

#1579 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:06

If you ask me, I'd say Frijns would be better off doing a season or 2 in GP2, before stepping up to F1. I remember too well Verstappen's early baptism — albeit due to Lehto's crash in pre-season testing — throwing him in at the deep end.

I agree with you, there was an episode of 'Britain's next F1 star' on the Sky F1 channel and Seb Morris (I think that was his name) was asking advice from Schumacher. His was advice was not to rush to F1, enjoy the ride there as plenty of drivers he knows who regret getting to F1 'too soon and leaving before they wanted'. This is my only concern about Bottas next year, if he is confirmed, as he's limited himself this year and might hinder his chances next year.

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#1580 race addicted

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:33

If you ask me, I'd say Frijns would be better off doing a season or 2 in GP2, before stepping up to F1. I remember too well Verstappen's early baptism — albeit due to Lehto's crash in pre-season testing — throwing him in at the deep end.


A season in WSR is preparation very, very close to GP2 I think.

#1581 lustigson

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:35

A season in WSR is preparation very, very close to GP2 I think.

True. But the guy is 21 years old and has merely 4 seasons in racecars under his belt. 1 or 2 more would hardly hurt him, I reckon.

#1582 race addicted

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:41

I agree, '14 is early enough. He'd do well to race another season, in either GP2 or WSR again. Has there been any rumours at all connecting him to GP2?

#1583 BackmarkerUK

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:58

True. But the guy is 21 years old and has merely 4 seasons in racecars under his belt. 1 or 2 more would hardly hurt him, I reckon.


I think a more likely and more valuable experience for him would be a season doing FP1 for Sauber, which wouldn't be compatible with a season in GP2. From Sauber's point of view it will keep Gutiérrez and Hulkenberg honest (assuming that's their lineup for next season) as they will have a clear indication that in Frijns Sauber have someone to replace them with if their performances are not up to scratch. For Frijns it gives him experience driving a modern F1 car and will develop those skills. The main downside would be that Frijns would not be gaining race experience during 2013, unless he went back to Formula Renault 3.5 as well. There are no rules preventing a champion from returning to Formula Renault 3.5, but if he did not do well then that could damage his reputation somewhat. The other option would be DTM, which might be a better option: build relationships with manufacturers; a reasonable career option, should a Formula One drive fail to materialise; not expected to win in debut season; contest against ex-F1 or F1-level drivers.

#1584 race addicted

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:01

Personally, I don't think doing DTM or tin-tops in general, provides much preparation for F1 at all.
At 22 years, he should race, and not just do FP1 for Sauber.

Edited by race addicted, 06 November 2012 - 14:19.


#1585 lustigson

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:08

I think a more likely and more valuable experience for him would be a season doing FP1 for Sauber, which wouldn't be compatible with a season in GP2. From Sauber's point of view it will keep Gutiérrez and Hulkenberg honest (assuming that's their lineup for next season) as they will have a clear indication that in Frijns Sauber have someone to replace them with if their performances are not up to scratch. For Frijns it gives him experience driving a modern F1 car and will develop those skills. The main downside would be that Frijns would not be gaining race experience during 2013, unless he went back to Formula Renault 3.5 as well. There are no rules preventing a champion from returning to Formula Renault 3.5, but if he did not do well then that could damage his reputation somewhat. The other option would be DTM, which might be a better option: build relationships with manufacturers; a reasonable career option, should a Formula One drive fail to materialise; not expected to win in debut season; contest against ex-F1 or F1-level drivers.

That's quite an idea, too.

#1586 Myrvold

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:31

True. But the guy is 21 years old and has merely 4 seasons in racecars under his belt. 1 or 2 more would hardly hurt him, I reckon.


While Raikkonen had... 23 races or something after he left karting before he joined Sauber.

#1587 Rob

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:56

While Raikkonen had... 23 races or something after he left karting before he joined Sauber.


Raikkonen was an exception. Most drivers need more time than that.

#1588 lustigson

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:58

While Raikkonen had... 23 races or something after he left karting before he joined Sauber.

But I'd say that Räikkönen is the exception to the rule.

An other example: Jos Verstappen did 49 car races prior to his (somewhat forced) Benetton debut, and, expectations considered, failed.

#1589 prpr

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 15:29

Times for Day 1 below, Magnussen fastest in McLaren, da Costa only .06 slower, Frijins +1.12, probably not enough to justify a 2013 race contract, even though the time was set in a Sauber. Lets see how he goes tomorrow, and on Thursday in the Red Bull.
Pos Driver Team Time Laps
1. Kevin Magnussen McLaren-Mercedes 1m42.651s 40
2. Antonio Felix da Costa Red Bull-Renault 1m42.717s + 0.066s 79
3. Gary Paffett McLaren-Mercedes 1m43.407s + 0.756s 44
4. Robin Frijns Sauber-Ferrari 1m43.775s + 1.124s 78
5. Nicolas Prost Lotus-Renault 1m44.194s + 1.543s 55
6. Luiz Razia Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m44.691s + 2.040s 67
7. Giedo van der Garde Caterham-Renault 1m45.936s + 3.285s 57



#1590 Collective

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 15:41

... Frijins +1.12, probably not enough to justify a 2013 race contract, even though the time was set in a Sauber. Lets see how he goes tomorrow, and on Thursday in the Red Bull...

Sauber said he was never sent on qualy fuel levels. He did test with soft tyres though. Who knows, I take times in these tests not with a pinch, but with a sack of salt. Track should be faster with Sunday's rubber, but there are also new parts, programs and fuel loads to account for. So really, drawing conclusions from these times is no better than drawing them from tea leaves.

#1591 Risil

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 16:10

Sauber said he was never sent on qualy fuel levels. He did test with soft tyres though. Who knows, I take times in these tests not with a pinch, but with a sack of salt.


Lotus-Renault should honour Prost Senior by sending Nicolas on a low-fuel qualifying run to capture best time.

Edited by Risil, 06 November 2012 - 16:12.


#1592 Collective

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 16:11

Lotus-Renault should send out Nicolas Prost on a low-fuel qualifying run to capture best time, in honour of his dad.

Too bad Nicolas is a slow driver... at least in single seaters.

#1593 Risil

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 16:13

Too bad Nicolas is a slow driver... at least in single seaters.


He fits in nicely with Alain's mechanical babies, then.

#1594 Vesuvius

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 17:55

According to TS, Giedo van der Garde to be announced for Caterham next friday.

#1595 prpr

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 18:08

Interesting comparison on Abu Dhabi Test thread, van der Garde closest to his team's fastest qualifying time at the Grand Prix, +.98, Frijins next closest, +1.69.

#1596 noikeee

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 18:29

It's a test, teams are trying parts for next year or the next races, it's not a shootout for the fastest lap. I've read in the Portuguese press that Felix da Costa didn't post a time all afternoon, and the team were telling him to do stuff such as skidding the wheels on purpose to measure temperature levels. That's how inconclusive this is.

Besides from what Frijns said he spent all day first trying to get used to the steering wheel and the G-forces, then trying to understand the tyres, which felt very different from the Michelins he's used to race on. All of which is normal for someone on the 1st day on a job, but indicates whatever drivers do here will be way way off from what they could do when they're on full blown adapted mode.

#1597 BackmarkerUK

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 18:37

According to TS, Giedo van der Garde to be announced for Caterham next friday.


I hope not. Giedo van der Garde will not be the worst driver to make it to Formula One, but as far as I can see, his career will only last as long as his money does. And maybe not even that long.

#1598 race addicted

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 19:09

GvdGarde is underwhelming. Dissapointing, even if half expected.

#1599 korzeniow

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 19:16

According to TS, Giedo van der Garde to be announced for Caterham next friday.


Quite turn around. From knocking on Ferrari's door to not finding a place at Caterham... Schame for Kovalainen because he's a nice guy, but he had his chance so there is nothing unfair about it

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#1600 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 19:41

Quite turn around. From knocking on Ferrari's door to not finding a place at Caterham...

Did Ferrari ever answer the door though?