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2013 Silly Season


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#2601 done

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 15:03

The problem (for him) is, such chance is very unlikely. I can't see any top team choosing him in case if a place opens up. If nobody wanted him a year ago, why would they in the future?


force india this year could be capable of podiums and if sutil drove it and scored some podiums he is gonna shine like perez

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#2602 SpartanChas

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 15:31

Di Resta would beat Sutil this year. He's just had a year of doing nothing.



#2603 tjkoyen

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 15:32

how much did it take button to win the championship ? sutil have to stick in F1 untill a chance rises and jump immediately


Just because one driver got lots of chances to grow and develop as a driver, doesn't mean all drivers get those chances. Button was lucky. And he had some pretty stellar performances at BAR.

force india this year could be capable of podiums and if sutil drove it and scored some podiums he is gonna shine like perez


Except Perez is viewed as a young talent whereas Sutil is far from a fresh young driver with multiple podiums to his name in his 2nd season of F1. Sutil had plenty of top 10 finishes, but so did Senna and look where he is, even WITH massive sponsorship.

#2604 done

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 18:04

Just because one driver got lots of chances to grow and develop as a driver, doesn't mean all drivers get those chances. Button was lucky. And he had some pretty stellar performances at BAR.



Except Perez is viewed as a young talent whereas Sutil is far from a fresh young driver with multiple podiums to his name in his 2nd season of F1. Sutil had plenty of top 10 finishes, but so did Senna and look where he is, even WITH massive sponsorship.


Sutil is way better and reliable than senna , senna was crashing every practice session and to be honest his qualifying against maldonado is totally embarrassing for an F1 driver. Sutil could reach the levels of Webber and Button in 2 years

#2605 ApexMouse

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 18:30

Based on what? The fact that he didn't in 5?

#2606 done

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 19:19

Based on what? The fact that he didn't in 5?


again , what did webber and button achieve in their first 5 years in midfield cars ?

#2607 onewingedangel

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 19:33

again , what did webber and button achieve in their first 5 years in midfield cars ?


Podium finishes.

#2608 done

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 19:43

sutil finished 4th a couple of times , and a lot of 5th places . and by the way mclaren and williams considered him in 2008 season

http://www.forumula1...with-top-teams/

#2609 lustigson

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 19:49

sutil finished 4th a couple of times , and a lot of 5th places . and by the way mclaren and williams considered him in 2008 season http://www.forumula1...with-top-teams/


2008 being 5 years ago. And neither team picked him. That says something.

#2610 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 20:05

again , what did webber and button achieve in their first 5 years in midfield cars ?

LOL Button finished third overall in the championship in his fifth year. But yeah, he achieved nothing in his first five years in Formula 1 :rolleyes: . Say what you like about Button and Webber, but at least when they had a car capable of making it on the podium they achieved it. Sutil squandered those few chances he had.

sutil finished 4th a couple of times , and a lot of 5th places

He has finished fourth once (ITA 2009) and fifth twice (MAL 2010 and BEL 2010).

#2611 olliek88

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 20:13

sutil finished 4th a couple of times , and a lot of 5th places . and by the way mclaren and williams considered him in 2008 season

http://www.forumula1...with-top-teams/


He couldn't of been that well rated by Mclaren, since Rosberg was their first choice but he turned them down so they went for Heikki.

Sutil is a solid driver, no more, no less.

#2612 apoka

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 20:28

2008 being 5 years ago. And neither team picked him. That says something.

It's not that simple. For instance, Sutil was voted 8th best driver by team principals in 2011 despite achieving "nothing". Whether you not you get a cockpit at a top team does not only depend on talent and the past years have shown that driver stability seems to more important than getting the best drivers (or let's say the best 2nd driver).

I think one of the reasons that he didn't get into a top team is that he never quite managed to get in the top results. Remember that 2008 Monza race? Sutil was on his way to a sensational 4th place in a Force India, which was a really bad car at that time (0 WDC points that year) when Kimi lost control under braking and crashed into him. Or Germany a year later - similar story.

He may not be the next Vettel, but he did have success at a backmarker and helped to take it to the midfield. I'd be happy to see him in F1 this year.

Edited by apoka, 16 February 2013 - 20:28.


#2613 Anderis

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 21:02

Remember that 2008 Monza race?

That was Monaco, not Monza. :)

Probably the most sensational performance I have seen in F1 until Hulk in Brazil 2012. And Sutil's drive was ended not by his fault, so it was even better in this aspect.

#2614 sopa

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 21:05

About the Button comparison. Bringing out JBs 2004 season and comparing the success and many podiums to Sutil is a tad unfair, considering Sutil never had a car that good. But to be honest, Sutil in 2010-2011 was quite similar to Button in 2002-2003. No podiums, but solid results and a spearhead among midfield drivers.

#2615 dau

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 21:06

Podium finishes.

The BAR006 was hardly a midfield car and i'd argue even the 2005 Williams was better than anything Sutil had over a full season. I'm not saying he's more than a solid midfielder, but missing podiums doesn't really say much.

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 21:08

LOL Button finished third overall in the championship in his fifth year. But yeah, he achieved nothing in his first five years in Formula 1 :rolleyes: . Say what you like about Button and Webber, but at least when they had a car capable of making it on the podium they achieved it. Sutil squandered those few chances he had.


He has finished fourth once (ITA 2009) and fifth twice (MAL 2010 and BEL 2010).


what would u make of button before 2009 ? he joined williams in 2000 stayed in midfield for 9 years before getting picked by mclaren in 2010 . i am not disliking any driver but i am saying sutil should have a chance at a top team

#2617 Showty

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 21:09

Jaime Alguersari issued a statement today explaining he won´t be on the grid on 2013, interesting points he confirmed:

-He had a verbal agreement with a team (regularly scoring points) to drive in 2013, he finally lost the seat, the team explained him his reasons, he accepted those reasons although he didn´t like them.

-He thinks right now it matters more the money u bring than the talent u have.

-He will continue his duties with Pirelli, very grateful with Paul Hembery.

-He´s convinced his F1 career is not over and he´ll keep on fighting to be back.

http://motor.as.com/...950_959511.html

#2618 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 21:18

Di Resta would beat Sutil this year. He's just had a year of doing nothing.

So did Hulkenberg in 2011 ;)

#2619 ApexMouse

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 21:18

you

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#2620 Myrvold

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 21:24

what would u make of button before 2009 ? he joined williams in 2000 stayed in midfield for 9 years before getting picked by mclaren in 2010 . i am not disliking any driver but i am saying sutil should have a chance at a top team


That he had quite a bit of talent, being beaten in his first year, and also in his second (by a Fisichella on top of his form). But then being faster than Trulli and Villeneuve the next two years. He looked quite good these years.
Sutil however, never looked that good compared to Fisichella which was over the top by the time he ran in Force India. He was better than DiResta and Liuzzi, but Liuzzi was never a top driver, and DiResta, even with all the hype, most likely isn't a future WDC, and he was a rookie.
Sutil never really managed to build on his good reputation from his first years, compared to Button.



#2621 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 22:18

About the Button comparison. Bringing out JBs 2004 season and comparing the success and many podiums to Sutil is a tad unfair, considering Sutil never had a car that good.

Now in fairness, done did say 'what did Button and Webber achieve in their first five years?'. In his fifth year JB finished third. Comparisons aside, what was asked was what did either of those two achieve.

what would u make of button before 2009 ? he joined williams in 2000 stayed in midfield for 9 years before getting picked by mclaren in 2010 . i am not disliking any driver but i am saying sutil should have a chance at a top team

Always rated Button for many of the reasons Myrvold has stated, but mainly as I've been a fan of his :p . Having said that he has been a very lucky man, given the contract disputes in his career, but he regularly finished in the top six early in his career for other team bosses to value him.

I think if Sutil was to have a chance with a top team, it would've happened by now but obviously he hasn't done enough in the eyes of team bosses to merit that opportunity. I don't think he's a bad driver at all, he fulfilled his potential as a solid driver in 2011 but I'd much rather see other drivers with more potential in top seats than him, imo.

#2622 lustigson

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 22:58

So, what does the Sutil-Button comparison have to do with the 2013 silly season again? ;)

#2623 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 23:08

The word silly I guess :p . I suppose the problem with this thread is silly season is pretty much at an end.

#2624 midgrid

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 23:43

Jaime Alguersari issued a statement today explaining he won´t be on the grid on 2013, interesting points he confirmed:

-He had a verbal agreement with a team (regularly scoring points) to drive in 2013, he finally lost the seat, the team explained him his reasons, he accepted those reasons although he didn´t like them.

-He thinks right now it matters more the money u bring than the talent u have.

-He will continue his duties with Pirelli, very grateful with Paul Hembery.

-He´s convinced his F1 career is not over and he´ll keep on fighting to be back.

http://motor.as.com/...950_959511.html


So, definitely Force India then?


#2625 lustigson

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:47

The word silly I guess :p . I suppose the problem with this thread is silly season is pretty much at an end.


It is indeed at its end. The one remaining seat will go to one of two drivers: Sutil or Bianchi. And that's it for 2013.

#2626 Group B

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 09:35

Di Resta would beat Sutil this year. He's just had a year of doing nothing.

Well it's about time di Resta beat someone.

#2627 Dolph

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 10:08

Well it's about time di Resta beat someone.


:rotfl:

#2628 caso

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 10:15

Well it's about time di Resta beat someone.


Don't forget the team orders ;)

#2629 SpartanChas

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 13:54

So did Hulkenberg in 2011 ;)

Hülkenberg was driving practise sessions pretty often. Afaik Sutil hasn't got into a race car of any kind for over a year now.

And yeah, Sutil almost came fourth in Monaco. But it three seasons later it was still a one-off.

#2630 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 14:57

Hülkenberg was driving practise sessions pretty often. Afaik Sutil hasn't got into a race car of any kind for over a year now.

He still missed out on racing rhytm. If Sutil gets to drive the next two test weeks I think it will be fine for Melbourne.

And yeah, Sutil almost came fourth in Monaco. But it three seasons later it was still a one-off.

Don't forget he also finished 10th twice in the championship, being best of the rest.

#2631 Myrvold

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 17:07

And yeah, Sutil almost came fourth in Monaco. But it three seasons later it was still a one-off.


Not to mention that he would've lost the position for passing under yellows anyway.

#2632 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 17:44

So, definitely Force India then?

I think Sauber. They probably wanted to replace Kobayashi with ALG and keep PER. But then HUL became available (because ferrari kept MAssa) , then they had to get HUL. Then PER left to McL, and the fianancial situation made it clear that GUI was the choice to keep Telemex money. So PER leaving kicked ALG out and the fact that they wanted HUL not ALG as teamleader, because who wants a rookie and another rookie who had been absent for a year.

Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 17 February 2013 - 17:47.


#2633 Anderis

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 18:49

Not to mention that he would've lost the position for passing under yellows anyway.

No he wouldn't. http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/68041

#2634 lustigson

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 18:52

Counting one-offs as measurement of someone's abilities would result in Marcus Winkelhock being one of the best drivers ever, leading his one and only Grand Prix.

#2635 apoka

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 18:58

Counting one-offs as measurement of someone's abilities would result in Marcus Winkelhock being one of the best drivers ever, leading his one and only Grand Prix.

I don't want to steer this thread further off-topic, but it was not a one-off performance. He has been a very solid point scorer and was considered to be one of the best midfield drivers (depending on how you count Kubica and Rosberg) by quite a few people.


#2636 lustigson

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 19:08

I don't want to steer this thread further off-topic, but it was not a one-off performance. He has been a very solid point scorer and was considered to be one of the best midfield drivers (depending on how you count Kubica and Rosberg) by quite a few people.


Markus Winkelhock raced in the 2007 European Grand Prix for Spyker. He led the race because of heavy rain and an oddly-planned pitstop. And that was the end of his F1 career.

#2637 Anderis

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 19:10

Winkelhock was leading the race due to a strategy call, not due to extraordinary performance. In fact, he was being much off the pace of everybody that weekend.

#2638 lustigson

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 19:13

Winkelhock was leading the race due to a strategy call, not due to extraordinary performance. In fact, he was being much off the pace of everybody that weekend.


I know. I was being sarcastic. ;)

#2639 Showty

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 19:15

I think Sauber. They probably wanted to replace Kobayashi with ALG and keep PER. But then HUL became available (because ferrari kept MAssa) , then they had to get HUL. Then PER left to McL, and the fianancial situation made it clear that GUI was the choice to keep Telemex money. So PER leaving kicked ALG out and the fact that they wanted HUL not ALG as teamleader, because who wants a rookie and another rookie who had been absent for a year.


Good points in there, however considering the time of his announcement it has to be Force India, makes perfect sense.

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#2640 Anderis

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 19:21

I really think Jaime was more likely to have some kind of agreement with Sauber rather than Force India.

Mallya was always saying he that wanted to keep his 2012 line-up at least for one year longer. I don't think there was any place for early agreements between other drivers and this team.

#2641 Myrvold

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 20:31

No he wouldn't. http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/68041


Happily corrected then! :)

#2642 apoka

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 21:29

Markus Winkelhock raced in the 2007 European Grand Prix for Spyker. He led the race because of heavy rain and an oddly-planned pitstop. And that was the end of his F1 career.

I know that story. :) I was talking about why Sutil was not a one-off.

On topic: Tomorrow, FI may announce the drivers for the next test days, which should at least give a hint at who gets the remaining seat (if they do not finally announce the driver directly).


#2643 Red17

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 22:29

On topic: Tomorrow, FI may announce the drivers for the next test days, which should at least give a hint at who gets the remaining seat (if they do not finally announce the driver directly).

The source is fuzzy, but yesterday while watching Speed Center (Speed Channel) they mentioned that Sutil's seat fitting was done so that he could drive in Barcelona and that he will be evaluated in the same test for the opening.

#2644 DanardiF1

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 06:40

For those trying to compare Sutil's career to Button's early career, the caveat I would add is this... whatever Jenson was doing at the time, there was always the hope and expectation that he was capable of more. I have never heard Sutil talked about in the same way. He found his level when Force India became a consistent points-scoring team from 2010 onwards, and even then he couldn't shake off silly mistakes and off-days.

Button became World Champion like many thought he would. Sutil has spent a year out doing absolutely nothing, because he couldn't get a drive in F1 or anywhere else.

#2645 Jimisgod

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 06:48

For those trying to compare Sutil's career to Button's early career, the caveat I would add is this... whatever Jenson was doing at the time, there was always the hope and expectation that he was capable of more. I have never heard Sutil talked about in the same way. He found his level when Force India became a consistent points-scoring team from 2010 onwards, and even then he couldn't shake off silly mistakes and off-days.

Button became World Champion like many thought he would. Sutil has spent a year out doing absolutely nothing, because he couldn't get a drive in F1 or anywhere else.


Sutil being a naughty boy with a glass is why he was out. Had Brawn not bought Honda it likely would have been a year off for Button, too. A tough '07 and '08 had made his great run in '04 - '06 a distant memory.

Sutil was never spoken of like Button, though, I agree. He hasn't had days of podium pace like Trulli or Fisi did to warrant a front running car.

#2646 Sin

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 07:31

Trulli better than Sutil? I got a different impression then again I stopped watching f1 for 10 years when Trulli had been Frentzens Teammate, but I know what a "Trulli-Train" is....

Frentzen was a better driver than Trulli and yet he did get fired...

Then again .... it would be funny to see both of them back.... Trulli & Sutil the eternal love relationship :clap: :lol:

#2647 SPBHM

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:46

Sutil always looked quick but a little inconsistent, if you look at 2008-2009 Fisichella got better results, and when the car was suddenly really fast Fisi was the one with a pole position and 2nd place, unfortunately at the following race he was driving for Ferrari...
I would rather see Bianchi driving the Force India,

#2648 Anderis

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:53

Sutil had more flashes of speed than Fisi at times when they were team-mates. The fact that he was before his peak then (just one year in F1 when he was paired with Fisi) and a bit unlucky weekend in Spa lead people to draw too much conclusion.

#2649 Jimisgod

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:26

I forgot the Sutil - Fisi - Heikki triangle. They all proved to be about level in the end. Nothing to write home about in either Heikki or Fisi's time in WDC cars. Heikki > Fisi > Sutil.

At least Kobayashi may prove to be around equal to Perez, and if Perez is a WDC contender...

Bring on Bianchi.

#2650 TFLB

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:59

For those trying to compare Sutil's career to Button's early career, the caveat I would add is this... whatever Jenson was doing at the time, there was always the hope and expectation that he was capable of more. I have never heard Sutil talked about in the same way. He found his level when Force India became a consistent points-scoring team from 2010 onwards, and even then he couldn't shake off silly mistakes and off-days.

Button became World Champion like many thought he would. Sutil has spent a year out doing absolutely nothing, because he couldn't get a drive in F1 or anywhere else.

To be honest I think the talk about Button's potential had more to do with him being British. Sutil has been a victim of being a very good German Formula One driver in an era of great ones.