13 replies to this topic

[THead]

In our machine shop at The Old Motor our main work is rebuilding early vintage sports and racing engines. We are doing a special set of posts on
rebuilding a massive 784 cubic inch 1910 Thomas-Flyer engine and how we machine new insert bearings. We will also be covering babbitting, align boring
and connecting rod boring.

Above is a Mercer Raceabout crankcase being align bored in preparation for new insert beaings.

The photo below is showing a new insert bearing shell being machined from bronze stock it is one of 10 in a post that we have up now showing how it is done at theoldmotor.com

Edited by THead, 30 April 2012 - 13:39.

[Ray Bell]

A shame you've caught me away from home...

I have a scad of pics of these bearings being made, the old blocks they go in etc.

Nothing as rorty as a Thomas Flyer, of course, but some interesting old Vintage machinery all the same.

[THead]

A shame you've caught me away from home...

I have a scad of pics of these bearings being made, the old blocks they go in etc.

Nothing as rorty as a Thomas Flyer, of course, but some interesting old Vintage machinery all the same.

Ray love to see them when you get back, you can contact me by leaving a comment at The Old Motor.
Depending on the photos you have, we may like to post them and whatever info you have on them.

[David Birchall]

You don't say where you are located. While this sort of work is relatively easily done in the UK it has become very difficult in N.America. A couple of friends have shipped engines back to England for rebuilding because there are no shops available locally (Vancouver) that can do this anymore--twenty years ago there was.

[arttidesco]

Thanks for introducing the word babbitting to my vocabulary

All the talk of imperial units makes it look like this is being done in the USA David.

[Allan Lupton]

Thanks for introducing the word babbitting to my vocabulary

All the talk of imperial units makes it look like this is being done in the USA David.

Babbitt is US-speak for what we call white metal with reference to bearings. Interesting how line-boring has become align-boring. . .
The idea that the USofA uses Imperial units goes back to the time when we had an Empire and the USofA was in it. I presume you were referring to the use of the cubic inch, an Imperial unit which never caught on here but is appropriate for a Thomas Flyer of course.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 30 April 2012 - 22:37.

[THead]

Babbitt is US-speak for what we call white metal with reference to bearings. Interesting how line-boring has become align-boring. . .
The idea that the USofA uses Imperial units goes back to the time when we had an Empire and the USofA was in it. I presume you were referring to the use of the cubic inch, an Imperial unit which never caught on here but is appropriate for a Thomas Flyer of course.

Yes I am in the USA in New England and have been doing this sort of work for about 25 years. We call it babbit as it was invented by Issac Babbitt. Some of us use the term align-boring here.
Yes we use the cubic inch or used to use it for engine displacement.

In the next installment I will show the rest of the work involved with finishing the inserts and babbittiing.

[Ray Bell]

The bloke I photographed doing this work was from South Africa or Rhodesia or similar...

He's been doing this work for thirty or so years now, in fact I'm only about half a mile from where he works at the moment.

I'll dig out pics when I get home and send them to you for comparison, I took them for a magazine article (in Australian Classic Car) about the process.

[Lee Nicolle]

At 57 I am old enough to understand this archaic process. But have ever only had involvement with it once directly when I was young with a Chev truck older than me.
There is only one place in Adelaide doing that now and probably not for much longer.
I love to see these old cars but am never likely to own one,,, unless I can convert it to slipper bearings.

[maoricar]

Babbitting; remetalling; direct poured/metalling; ( call it what you will) is not QUITE a lost art...........yet.
Some air compressors require remetalling as do sundry other types of reciprocating industrial machines.
Just recently a friend had his early 20's Oldmobile rods and mains re-metalled; no real problems finding a shop to do it, in the Canton/Massilon Ohio area.
What probably IS becoming a lost art, are the techniques involve in hand finishing ( scraping) and shimming-- functions normally carried out by whoever assembled the engine.
In the 60's Glacier Bearings (NZ) Ltd still offered two alloys of whitemetal, in the form of ingots...L-1 and L-2 as I recall...depending upon the amount of tin in the alloy. These ingots were shipped from the parent factory in Middlesex England..........and up to the early 70's were still selling, albeit, slowly.

I find it very encouraging that a company is going to the time, trouble and expense in providing replacement bearings and bearing services, that would otherwise be unobtainable.
Neville MILNE

[GMACKIE]

Some years ago, as a part of the restoration of my 1923 Peugeot 175, I managed to get Dave Mawer to make a set of four con-rods for its 3 litre engine. It seemed like a good idea to make the new rods to suit a a readily available slipper bearing. In his usual way, Dave asked "how many spare crank-shafts do you have?" As the answer was "none", Dave suggested to use white metal, because it was much 'kinder' to the crank, in the event of a bearing failure. This made sense to me, so that's what was done, along with the main bearings.

[maoricar]

Some years ago, as a part of the restoration of my 1923 Peugeot 175, I managed to get Dave Mawer to make a set of four con-rods for its 3 litre engine. It seemed like a good idea to make the new rods to suit a a readily available slipper bearing. In his usual way, Dave asked "how many spare crank-shafts do you have?" As the answer was "none", Dave suggested to use white metal, because it was much 'kinder' to the crank, in the event of a bearing failure. This made sense to me, so that's what was done, along with the main bearings.

That was good advice. Whitemetal ( 'Slipper'; 'shell'; 'insert' ) bearings ARE softer and more tolerant of dirt..with, depending upon the undersize, between .007 and .012 ( approx.) of bearing material, bonded to the steel backing. I once contacted a tech rep from Clevite to ask why they offered whitemetal shell bearings for the 'muscle-car engines and he told me, virtually the same thing, that whitemetal was far easier on the crank journals than the available alternatives..overlay plated copper-lead ( Vandervell used the term..'Lead Indium') and Reticular-Tin Aluminium. he made the point that it was easier and far cheaper, to replace a set of shells, between races, rather than a crankshaft. Later Clevite developed a softer, higher strength material they called 'F-500' which was a copper-lead bearing in which the lead was sintered into the copper bearing surface..as a pretty good compromise between strength and the ability to accept foreign bodies.
If you 'ran' or 'spun' or otherwise damaged a copper-lead bearing, chances were you would be VERY lucky if the crank journal would clean up at .030 or .040 under.........if it would clean up at all.
Neville MILNE

Edited by maoricar, 02 May 2012 - 13:10.

[maoricar]

Some years ago, as a part of the restoration of my 1923 Peugeot 175, I managed to get Dave Mawer to make a set of four con-rods for its 3 litre engine. It seemed like a good idea to make the new rods to suit a a readily available slipper bearing. In his usual way, Dave asked "how many spare crank-shafts do you have?" As the answer was "none", Dave suggested to use white metal, because it was much 'kinder' to the crank, in the event of a bearing failure. This made sense to me, so that's what was done, along with the main bearings.

That was good advice. Whitemetal ( 'Slipper'; 'shell'; 'insert' ) bearings ARE softer and more tolerant of dirt..with, depending upon the undersize, btween .007 and .012 ( approx.) of bearing material, bonded to the steel backing. I once contacted a tech rep from Clevite to ask why they offered whitemetal shell bearings for the 'muscle-car engines and he told me, virtually the same thing, that whitemetal was far easier on the crank journals than the available alternatives..overlay plated copper-lead ( Vandervell used the term..'Lead Indium') and Reticular-Tin Aluminium. he made the point that it was easier and far cheaper, to replace a set of shells, between races, rather than a crankshaft. Later Clevite developed a softer, higher strength material they called 'F-500' which was a copper-lead bearing in which the lead was sintered into the copper bearing surface..as a pretty good compromise between strength and the ability to accept foreign bodies.
If you 'ran' or 'spun' or otherwise damaged a copper-lead bearing, chances were you would be VERY lucky if the crank journal would clean up at .030 or .040 under.........if it would clean up at all.
Neville MILNE

[THead]

That was good advice. Whitemetal ( 'Slipper'; 'shell'; 'insert' ) bearings ARE softer and more tolerant of dirt..with, depending upon the undersize, btween .007 and .012 ( approx.) of bearing material, bonded to the steel backing. I once contacted a tech rep from Clevite to ask why they offered whitemetal shell bearings for the 'muscle-car engines and he told me, virtually the same thing, that whitemetal was far easier on the crank journals than the available alternatives..overlay plated copper-lead ( Vandervell used the term..'Lead Indium') and Reticular-Tin Aluminium. he made the point that it was easier and far cheaper, to replace a set of shells, between races, rather than a crankshaft. Later Clevite developed a softer, higher strength material they called 'F-500' which was a copper-lead bearing in which the lead was sintered into the copper bearing surface..as a pretty good compromise between strength and the ability to accept foreign bodies.
If you 'ran' or 'spun' or otherwise damaged a copper-lead bearing, chances were you would be VERY lucky if the crank journal would clean up at .030 or .040 under.........if it would clean up at all.
Neville MILNE

One other reason to stay with babbitt with really old race and road cars is the lack of an oil filter. Quite a few people find quicker wear on their new inserts and crankshaft after a change over.
Babbitt or white as you mention being more tolerant has the ability to embed dirt were it will do less harm. With tri metal or aluminum insets it wears them and the crankshaft.

Early bearings also have what are called "mud pockets" or grooves at the parting line. They hold oil but also are intended to hold bigger particles that get in where they will do less harm.

I will show this in the next post on the subject on The Old Motor.