32 replies to this topic

[peter kropotk]

[RStock]

Now that's what they call "backing it in"!

Also why I consider the modern day "sport" of "drifting" as a joke.

[Michael Ferner]

Agricultural technology and looks notwithstanding,

YOU GOTTA LOVE DIRT TRACK RACING!!!

[BRG]

Now that's what they call "backing it in"!

Also why I consider the modern day "sport" of "drifting" as a joke.

I agree that drifting is a waste of time and resources that should be used for proper racing. But it is pretty easy to get sideways on damp dirt - especially with wide tyres like that.

[RonPohl]

Not really my type of racing, but I do enjoy a good sprint or midget race on dirt (no wings please).. While taking a close look at one of these strange beast, I was amused to see that only three of the wheels have brakes. Apparently when you touch the breaks, the car pitches sideways setting up the drift.

[RStock]

Not really my type of racing, but I do enjoy a good sprint or midget race on dirt (no wings please).. While taking a close look at one of these strange beast, I was amused to see that only three of the wheels have brakes.

Many now only run one LF brake and one inboard rear brake.

Apparently when you touch the breaks, the car pitches sideways setting up the drift.

Just a typical American race car, try to turn it right all you want, it will still only go left.

[RStock]

I agree that drifting is a waste of time and resources that should be used for proper racing. But it is pretty easy to get sideways on damp dirt - especially with wide tyres like that.

Pretty easy to get sideways trying to rein in 800+ HP too. And the dirt is usually only damp early on. Once it gets "dry slick" it can be as hard as concrete. Still, you're correct it's easier to break the tires loose on dirt, but it isn't all just because of damp dirt and wide tires.

[Romulan]

In physics we can explain the action in terms of laws of motion/classical mechanics/contact force.

"Contact forces are those types of forces that result when the two interacting objects are perceived to be physically contacting each other. Examples of contact forces include frictional forces, tensional forces, normal forces, air resistance forces, and applied forces."

http://www.physicscl...tlaws/u2l2a.cfm


Drift is a normal attribute of F1 racing. And as others have already pointed out -- drift , for the most part, is undesirable. However, like many artisans that use a wide range of tools to get the 'job' done, Formula 1 drivers can use drift to carry speed (to 'x' marks the spot) in some corners.

~

[elansprint72]

... but is it Nostalgia? If so, for what?

[GMACKIE]

OK, but what a great photo.....the eyes say it all.

[eurocardoc]

... but is it Nostalgia? If so, for what?

Well ask Mario, the Unsers, AJ Foyt, Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, this is still just a modern version of cars and driving style from many many years ago. A large following in the USA and Down Under for vintage meets featuring Sprints and Midgets.

[Marc Sproule]

Here are some sideways shots. not on dirt...

For some strange reason this one is my most viewed pic on flickr.....

http://www.flickr.co...57623324227456/

Here are some from my Atlantic set.....

Gilles

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

Keke

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

Price Cobb

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

Kevin Cogan

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

Dan Marvin--with one hand no less

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

Bob Earl

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

Bertil Roos

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

Richard Spenard

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

Laffite

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

Depailler

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

There are probably others in my Atlantic set that I didn't think about

http://www.flickr.co...57623186773769/

[RonPohl]

I read an interview with Mario several years ago. The interviewer ask : Mario, you have driven all types of races...formula 1, Indy, NASCAR, sports car and have driven at all the great tracks. Mario, what is the ultimate racing experience? Mario's answer- Sprint Cars-on the dirt-wingless- 1 mile oval- riding the cushion...... Thats the ultimate racing experience.

[Lee Nicolle]

Unusual bar set up. It seems to have 2 lots of torsion bars. The top one with the arms sliding on the axle and the second hanging underneath ah la a sway bar.
Too crossed up though to go fast..You really should not be very sideways as the stagger turns the car. But a Sprint has that much lock for that reason.
As for the lack of r/f brake that is hardly unusual. Even when they do run a brake on that corner it is only a very sm all one.You never want a left turn car to turn right!!

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 06 May 2012 - 08:41.

[peter kropotk]

[quote name='Marc Sproule' date='May 6 2012, 00:34' post='5699542']
Here are some sideways shots. not on dirt...

For some strange reason this one is my most viewed pic on flickr.....

http://www.flickr.co...57623324227456/

Here are some from my Atlantic set.....

Gilles "jumping" is a marvellous shot and conveys exactly what GV was as a driver!

[peter kropotk]

... but is it Nostalgia? If so, for what?

Perhaps for a never-happened "could have" form of motor sport if the UK had developed big dirt oval tracks? It evolved in the US largely because of the county fair tradition, with its 1/2 and 1-mile dirt ovals for horse racing.
UK history, with small m'cycle speedway cinder/shale tracks (many only 330-380 yards), did not provide the opportunity for fast car racing; and the uniquely-British form of full-contact stock car racing likewise prevented a pure speed contest of this kind.

Maybe if post-war Britain had had the tracks, certainly there were thousands of Jag 6-cylinder motors for the taking, and ----------- who knows?

[Sisyphus]

Many now only run one LF brake and one inboard rear brake.

Just a typical American race car, try to turn it right all you want, it will still only go left.

I remember going to Ascot and watching drivers get to turn 1 and take a big old handful of wheel and turn the wheel right! That always amused me--the 3 brakes got the cars pitched sideways so they were immediately in a power slide.

[peter kropotk]

[quote name='Romulan' date='May 5 2012, 19:58' post='5699320']
In physics we can explain the action in terms of laws of motion/classical mechanics/contact force.

"Contact forces are those types of forces that result when the two interacting objects are perceived to be physically contacting each other. Examples of contact forces include frictional forces, tensional forces, normal forces, air resistance forces, and applied forces."

Thanks. That helps (helps a bit ) explain to me the apparent oddity that sprint cars and dragsters are known to generate their greatest traction when the driven wheels are just beginning to spin --- I guess that comes from "frictional forces". Presumably a good driver senses that state.

[peter kropotk]

I read an interview with Mario several years ago. The interviewer ask : Mario, you have driven all types of races...formula 1, Indy, NASCAR, sports car and have driven at all the great tracks. Mario, what is the ultimate racing experience? Mario's answer- Sprint Cars-on the dirt-wingless- 1 mile oval- riding the cushion...... Thats the ultimate racing experience.

I too remember that quote. Another was from Bobby Unser, who said "A dirt car TALKS to you, unlike other cars."

[brucemoxon]

Unusual bar set up. It seems to have 2 lots of torsion bars. The top one with the arms sliding on the axle and the second hanging underneath ah la a sway bar.
Too crossed up though to go fast..You really should not be very sideways as the stagger turns the car. But a Sprint has that much lock for that reason.
As for the lack of r/f brake that is hardly unusual. Even when they do run a brake on that corner it is only a very sm all one.You never want a left turn car to turn right!!

Maybe it's got one bar for each wheel?




Bruce Moxon

[brucemoxon]

Unusual bar set up. It seems to have 2 lots of torsion bars. The top one with the arms sliding on the axle and the second hanging underneath ah la a sway bar.
Too crossed up though to go fast..You really should not be very sideways as the stagger turns the car. But a Sprint has that much lock for that reason.
As for the lack of r/f brake that is hardly unusual. Even when they do run a brake on that corner it is only a very sm all one.You never want a left turn car to turn right!!

Maybe it's got one bar for each wheel?




Bruce Moxon

[simonlewisbooks]

Perhaps for a never-happened "could have" form of motor sport if the UK had developed big dirt oval tracks? It evolved in the US largely because of the county fair tradition, with its 1/2 and 1-mile dirt ovals for horse racing.
UK history, with small m'cycle speedway cinder/shale tracks (many only 330-380 yards), did not provide the opportunity for fast car racing; and the uniquely-British form of full-contact stock car racing likewise prevented a pure speed contest of this kind.

Maybe if post-war Britain had had the tracks, certainly there were thousands of Jag 6-cylinder motors for the taking, and ----------- who knows?

It has actually been tried - back in the late 90s there were regular sprintcar races between the F1 stock car heats at Coventy, for a season or two. But there were never enough cars on hand to make it take off as intended. And there was some antipathy on the terraces where most regulars seemed to have limited interest in anything without full contact.

I was at Coventry last summer when a full WoO-style car was demo'd in readiness for a future fixture - and it looked and sounded great but on the 300+ yards of narrow shale it also brought to mind Nelson Piquet's comments on racing an F1 car at Monaco: "Like riding a bicycle round your living room" !

At present (and what's likely to change?) there just aren't the right kind of tracks to show this type of racing to full advantage in Britain - more's the pity.

[Lee Nicolle]

Maybe it's got one bar for each wheel?




Bruce Moxon

Bruce, they have one bar for each wheel. Every torsion bar has a seperate housing either immediatly behind or immediatly on top of each other.
That seperate bar/bars hanging below is more akin to a sway bar. Something normally not used on dirt speedway as it effectivly binds the suspension and feeds all the bumps into the other wheel. Not good.

[Lee Nicolle]

It has actually been tried - back in the late 90s there were regular sprintcar races between the F1 stock car heats at Coventy, for a season or two. But there were never enough cars on hand to make it take off as intended. And there was some antipathy on the terraces where most regulars seemed to have limited interest in anything without full contact.

I was at Coventry last summer when a full WoO-style car was demo'd in readiness for a future fixture - and it looked and sounded great but on the 300+ yards of narrow shale it also brought to mind Nelson Piquet's comments on racing an F1 car at Monaco: "Like riding a bicycle round your living room" !

At present (and what's likely to change?) there just aren't the right kind of tracks to show this type of racing to full advantage in Britain - more's the pity.

300+ yards would be ok, just, but narrow shale No.
Sprinters effectivly come in 3 categorys, Wingless with I believe still 360ci limit, 360 Winged cars with iron production blocks and alloy 23 degree production Chev style heads and 410 WOO engines which are [normally] a Chev design based alloy block with free head design. But still must be pushrod.
Here in Oz we have both types of winged cars, and 410s on short tracks just screw the gears out of the diffs, break drivelines and fry tyres etc whereas the less powerfull (around 600hp] generally dont break nearly as many parts. And on the short tracks are near as fast.
But 410s do sound so strong in comparison. Though really are dumb on our generally shorter[than the US] tracks.

[Les]

Of course I can't beat the first pic as its awesome but here's one I like of Patrick and Ronnie in F1:

http://grandprixweb....il-de-1977.html

[brucemoxon]

Bruce, they have one bar for each wheel. Every torsion bar has a seperate housing either immediatly behind or immediatly on top of each other.
That seperate bar/bars hanging below is more akin to a sway bar. Something normally not used on dirt speedway as it effectivly binds the suspension and feeds all the bumps into the other wheel. Not good.

Thanks for that. I was just making a WAG. (Wild-Arsed Guess)

Honestly, I've never really looked at a speedcar or sprintcar's suspension. I'm sure there's a lot to it, as primative as some might think it.

Still a great photo.




BM

[Lee Nicolle]

Thanks for that. I was just making a WAG. (Wild-Arsed Guess)

Honestly, I've never really looked at a speedcar or sprintcar's suspension. I'm sure there's a lot to it, as primative as some might think it.

Still a great photo.




BM

Just because it is old fashioned with beam axles does not mean it is primitive. Quite light, very tough and very easily fully adjustable. You can improve a cars handling by screwing a bolt [on the torsion stops] in and out. They often do that at the all too frequent red lights.Easier than a coil car that has to have the weight lifted from the adjuster to make a change.
The torque tube arrangement though can be archaic as an open drive car generally 'hooks up' better. But having a tailshaft between the drivers legs with 800hp can be daunting!! Though the torque tubes and drive shaft are a frequent replacement in Sprinters particularly.Normally in crashes. They pull the threads out of the diff where the torque tube bolts on frequently, most come with 2 sets of holes these days

[peter kropotk]

Just because it is old fashioned with beam axles does not mean it is primitive. Quite light, very tough and very easily fully adjustable. You can improve a cars handling by screwing a bolt [on the torsion stops] in and out. They often do that at the all too frequent red lights.Easier than a coil car that has to have the weight lifted from the adjuster to make a change.
The torque tube arrangement though can be archaic as an open drive car generally 'hooks up' better. But having a tailshaft between the drivers legs with 800hp can be daunting!! Though the torque tubes and drive shaft are a frequent replacement in Sprinters particularly.Normally in crashes. They pull the threads out of the diff where the torque tube bolts on frequently, most come with 2 sets of holes these days

Here's a "general supplies" van in the pits at my local dirt track. Nice rear axle, anyone? http://oldstox.com/i...s/rear axle.jpg
Single tube axle, no true "diff", just a big ring gear mounted on its center. The quick-change casing in this photo is below, containing the two cogs. The drive shaft would come in at the 'top' bearing, and nowadays they are selling carbon-fibre driveshafts. This strikes me as overkill, since a sprinter rarely has more than 6" of driveshaft, and some of those 220lb drivers scoff a couple of half-pound burgers and fries in the pits ---- how much can you save in weight?

As for the jugs, I don't know whether that's Koolaid or methanol ------.

[Lee Nicolle]

Here's a "general supplies" van in the pits at my local dirt track. Nice rear axle, anyone? http://oldstox.com/i...s/rear axle.jpg
Single tube axle, no true "diff", just a big ring gear mounted on its center. The quick-change casing in this photo is below, containing the two cogs. The drive shaft would come in at the 'top' bearing, and nowadays they are selling carbon-fibre driveshafts. This strikes me as overkill, since a sprinter rarely has more than 6" of driveshaft, and some of those 220lb drivers scoff a couple of half-pound burgers and fries in the pits ---- how much can you save in weight?

As for the jugs, I don't know whether that's Koolaid or methanol ------.

Hey, a driveshaft is usually at least 18". And made from steel so not light. Though carbon should be banned on price alone, without the durability issues.. Probably as should be magnesium diffs.If everyone uses a steel driveshaft and aluminium diff no one is disadvantaged.
That diff is modern but the basics have been around in open axle for 40 years and closed axle for over 50. Hardly new.

as for 220lb drivers, that is Nascar. Most young and hungry drivers are as skinny but a bit brawnier than any open wheel counterpart. Some older drivers may push 180-200lbs. Fat blokes just do not fit in those cars. I struggle to sit in one at 100 kilo. And midgets are oh so squeezy!

Those jugs at a guess is coolant, engine changes require that in about that quantity.

[peter kropotk]

Hey, a driveshaft is usually at least 18". And made from steel so not light. Though carbon should be banned on price alone, without the durability issues.. Probably as should be magnesium diffs.If everyone uses a steel driveshaft and aluminium diff no one is disadvantaged.
That diff is modern but the basics have been around in open axle for 40 years and closed axle for over 50. Hardly new.

as for 220lb drivers, that is Nascar. Most young and hungry drivers are as skinny but a bit brawnier than any open wheel counterpart. Some older drivers may push 180-200lbs. Fat blokes just do not fit in those cars. I struggle to sit in one at 100 kilo. And midgets are oh so squeezy!

Those jugs at a guess is coolant, engine changes require that in about that quantity.

Lee, thanks for putting me straight. As for beefiness, I must have been thinking of Kinser -------

[Chris Frizell]

what a brilliant photo, it captures the essence of dirt track racing for me, right on the limit, completely sideways, the driver connected to his car and his surroundings in a way that would be hard to achieve in most other forms of motor-sport.

As for nostalgia, some would argue that it isn't really a nostalgia shot, but if you took a bunch of Indy Roadsters, some short track midgets and sprint cars from say the last 50 years and boiled them in a big pot, this is what would have been distilled out of it. Raw, powerful, not technologically overkilled, and exciting...

Nothing in my mind comes close to a bunch of 800hp + sprint cars full of testosterone overdosed competitors howling into the first turn of an A-Main race...knowing that there is a good chance that a few of them at least are not gonna make the second turn..but going for it any way..and how many successful drivers started their careers going sideways...

Love it!

[GMACKIE]

what a brilliant photo, it captures the essence of dirt track racing for me, right on the limit, completely sideways, ...and how many successful drivers started their careers going sideways...

Love it!

Sir Jack Brabham, for instance.

[Peter Leversedge]

Sprint Cars
My favorite race cars.............