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#51 jjcale

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:22

Thing is I think teams would have already noticed. They're not dumb.


I put F1 somewhere between wrestling and boxing in terms of integrity ... I hold the view that to a large extent they see themselves as "the F1 community" and they are nowhere near being at each other's throats as they like to suggest publicly.... collectively they have all got very rich off this show. Many of them started with not very much. They have more pressure to stick together than to rat each other out - despite what they suggest - IMO.

Cant tell me that they did not all figure out Singapore 08... people on forums figured it out before the end of the race... but which of them said anything?



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#52 fhaneef

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:25



Also anyone mind telling me how Hamilton the shredder was able to keep his tyres last for so long, button who is known to look after tyres was no where.

Maybe this was Hamilton turn but Mclaren messed it up

#53 kosmos

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:26

I don't believe in any conspiracy, but the tyres are too random for the sake of it, it's like having a monkey in charge of the blue flags, sometimes they wave, sometimes they don't and sometimes they wave the wrong colour.

#54 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:26

I put F1 somewhere between wrestling and boxing in terms of integrity ... I hold the view that to a large extent they see themselves as "the F1 community" and they are nowhere near being at each other's throats as they like to suggest publicly.... collectively they have all got very rich off this show. Many of them started with not very much. They have more pressure to stick together than to rat each other out - despite what they suggest - IMO.

Cant tell me that they did not all figure out Singapore 08... people on forums figured it out before the end of the race... but which of them said anything?


The big teams would have complained. They are in F1 to win.

#55 fabr68

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:30

Also anyone mind telling me how Hamilton the shredder was able to keep his tyres last for so long, button who is known to look after tyres was no where.

Maybe this was Hamilton turn but Mclaren messed it up


So Hamilton goes to great heights to adjust his driver style to be extremely fast on the tires while learning how to manage its wear. Now, we want inferior drivers across all teams to have faster tires because they can't do what Hamilton does?

#56 fhaneef

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:30

The big teams would have complained. They are in F1 to win.


Unless everyone has been promised they will get their turn! F1 is about money, randomness means viewers, viewers means popularity, popularity means sponsors, sponsors mean money, and money means the good times are back!

Btw I am all for it...I love the new F1

#57 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:33

Unless everyone has been promised they will get their turn! F1 is about money, randomness means viewers, viewers means popularity, popularity means sponsors, sponsors mean money, and money means the good times are back!

Btw I am all for it...I love the new F1


Ferrari, Mclaren or Mercedes don't want to "get their turn". They want to win all the time, and beat the other manufacturers. That's just my view anyway, it's impossible to be 100% certain.

#58 jjcale

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:33

The big teams would have complained. They are in F1 to win.


I dont agree.... but we have to agree to disagree.

#59 ZooL

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:36

I think the tyres are too random and its down to poor manufacturing from Pirelli.

Not only do they wear out very quick and cannot tolerate high thermal and lateral load, Pirelli can't even manufacture consistent products and have poor quality control.

No disrespect to Maldanado but when a pay driver like him wins a race you know there is something seriously wrong in F1, and its the tyres.

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#60 Mithrandir

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:37

Funny thread.

#61 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:38

Funny thread.


If it was it would serve some purpose, but it isn´t even that :rolleyes:

#62 ali.unal

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:38

For sure. I have it on good authority that Buttoneer is actually Jean Todt. Don't tell anyone.

Nah. He should have been Schumachereer then.

#63 Siperoth

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:39

I think the tyres are too random and its down to poor manufacturing from Pirelli.

Not only do they wear out very quick and cannot tolerate high thermal and lateral load, Pirelli can't even manufacture consistent products and have poor quality control.

No disrespect to Maldanado but when a pay driver like him wins a race you know there is something seriously wrong in F1, and its the tyres.


If the tyres where inconsistent then a team wouldn't be fast on a weekend and slower in the other but a driver would be fast on one set and slow on the other. That doesn't happen. When a driver gets the set-up right his continuously fast and when the set-up is a mess no matter the tyre set things are horrible so it's car set-ups and driving styles.

#64 MeatPopsicle

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:40

williams win for the first time in 8 years on Frank Williams 70th birthday...

ferrari revival on alonso home grandprix to take 2nd...

it certainly is a coincidence :rotfl:

#65 Anomnader

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:41

williams win for the first time in 8 years on Frank Williams 70th birthday...

ferrari revival on alonso home grandprix to take 2nd...

it certainly is a coincidence :rotfl:


You forget, Merc pulling out of F1, suddenly they find a burst of speed and not they are back to struggling to get into Q3

#66 Fergo

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:42

I actually gave this a bit of thought because with Bernie ultimately running 'the show' it is something that can happen.
However this year the cars are so evenly matched and there's been the fact that Hamilton has been consistent in qualifying throughout the season.

#67 sniper80

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:46

If it's true, than Force India is one of the next teams to pick up a surprise win :D

#68 notguilty56

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:47

Another twist: Pastor's family is very rich. Sergio Pérez's family is very rich. So, when will be Bruno's turn?
:lol:

#69 fhaneef

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:47

If it's true, than Force India is one of the next teams to pick up a surprise win :D


I've got them down for a Canadian win

#70 ali.unal

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:49

I've got them down for a Canadian win

Don't you think Indian GP win fit the most?

#71 ExFlagMan

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:50

So was thinking about this for a while.

There is an argument that the results are somewhat being doctored, Pirelli may be sending over special tyres to teams in a bit to ensure there is a level of unpredictability. The teams don't know they have them because they are randomly allocated, although Pirelli know exactly who are getting them.

It may explain why one weekend one team looks great and the next weekend they're all at sea. The Top teams are always there or there about because of superior downforce, but you can tell with smaller teams. Sauber hasn't been able to replicate their performance from Malaysia, we'll see if Williams can replicate this in Monaco.

This adds some weight as F1 is about to go public, and markets look towards a popular brand liked by everyone rather then enthusiast.

I knew FransMSH had to be lurking out there somewhere :rotfl:

#72 Sausage

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:55

It's the Supermoon and mothers day combined power.

#73 Victor

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:57

So was thinking about this for a while.

There is an argument that the results are somewhat being doctored, Pirelli may be sending over special tyres to teams in a bit to ensure there is a level of unpredictability. The teams don't know they have them because they are randomly allocated, although Pirelli know exactly who are getting them.

It may explain why one weekend one team looks great and the next weekend they're all at sea. The Top teams are always there or there about because of superior downforce, but you can tell with smaller teams. Sauber hasn't been able to replicate their performance from Malaysia, we'll see if Williams can replicate this in Monaco.

This adds some weight as F1 is about to go public, and markets look towards a popular brand liked by everyone rather then enthusiast.


What's the point of this kind of threads? :down:

#74 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:59

No disrespect to Maldanado but when a pay driver like him wins a race you know there is something seriously wrong in F1, and its the tyres.

How is that 'no disrespect' when he just won a race and you're still just trying to pass him off as a pay driver? :rolleyes:

We've seen that Williams have been quick in the races, they just haven't qualified too hot to really show it off.

Ridiculous thread by the way.

#75 Sakae

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:10

It's not a crazy thing to think at all. As Paul hembery said earlier; 'We are in the entertainment business'. Don't be naive.

Wrestling is also entertainment business. I am hoping Mercedes will be talking about next time when they will vote to stay, or leave.

#76 King Six

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:20

Don't mind me. I'm just throwing further fuel onto the fire (no pun intended)

http://www.planetf1....known-assailant

Red Bull's efforts in Barcelona were sorely hampered as both Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber needed new front wings after theirs were mysteriously damaged./B>

Webber was the first to come in for an out-of-sequence pit stop for a new front wing, changing his on lap 18, while Vettel later came in on lap 43.

That, though, wasn't Vettel's only issue on Sunday as the German was also slapped with a drive-through penalty for ignoring yellow flags.

"It was a hard day in the office. I'm not entirely happy," said the reigning World Champion.

"I think we could have been at least one position further up. We had a good recovery in the end.

"It was good fun, but when it's up and down, up and down, it's quite difficult.

"I didn't think I had damage with the nose. It felt like there was something stuck which ruins the aerodynamics.

We decided to come in and change the nose. That cost us some time, but it was right to do.

"We found out that the front end of the wing was actually broken. I don't know why, I didn't hit anybody."

Strangely, his team-mate Webber's afternoon was also undone when he suffered front wing damage. And, like Vettel, he didn't know where or why.


"It was an interesting race. I don't know where I got damage on my front wing but I had to pit for a new nose," said the Aussie, who finished P11.

"When you're out of position round here you have to look after your tyres and when you catch people, your tyres get killed. I was out of position whatever happened with the nose.

"If you push you have to pit. It's a new way, it's good for the fans if they like it, but it makes it more challenging for us in different ways."



#77 rdebourbon

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:26

While I don't want to buy into any of the conspiracy theories, and I have heard repeated comments from drivers & teams about the great behavioural consistency across the Pirelli tyres from 1 set to another - I am starting to find it increasingly difficult to believe that despite all the thousands of testing and now racing kilometres, coupled with all the very smart engineers and extensive tyre modelling capabilities that the big teams are still in the early learning stages with these Pirelli's tyres and are unable to consistently hit the seemingly tiny performance window of these tyres.. Perhaps I could accept it if a big team was nowhere for a while, then "lucked" into a set-up and had that light bulb moment.. but so far this year no one seems to be able to explain or consistently get a handle on the tyre performance from 1 event to another.. If I were a suspicious man I would be inclined to believe such conspiracy theories were far more than pure ho-cum..

#78 Anomnader

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:29

I don't know why Redbull nose changes would add to it, I'd put that more down to Redbull being dodgy ;-)

#79 rdebourbon

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:34

Here's another bit of conspiracy to add ;-)

Bernie got tired of everyone laughing at his sprinkler idea so instead he's gotten Pirelli to make the show more unpredictable by having a couple of *special* sets of tyres that are allocated randomly each event..

1. A super duper set for the lucky winner
2. A super set for a lucky podium
3. A couple of duff sets for a random dismal weekend

Anyone else finding it a little hard to reconcile some of the team mate performance differences so far this year?


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#80 Anomnader

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:38

Here's another bit of conspiracy to add ;-)

Bernie got tired of everyone laughing at his sprinkler idea so instead he's gotten Pirelli to make the show more unpredictable by having a couple of *special* sets of tyres that are allocated randomly each event..

1. A super duper set for the lucky winner
2. A super set for a lucky podium
3. A couple of duff sets for a random dismal weekend

Anyone else finding it a little hard to reconcile some of the team mate performance differences so far this year?


I'm finding it hard to understand how Mercedes/redbull can be awesome one race then midfield the next, does temperatures really alter the performance that much?

#81 Ferrim

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:39

The race stewards were also involved, because Pirelli had messed up, they forgot to give bad tyres to Hamilton and therefore he needed to be heavily punished. And so, McLaren are also in the conspiracy (conspiring against themselves!), that's why they gave Hamilton not enough fuel so that the stewards could punish him. Or, alternatively, they made up the fuel issue. And, for some reason, they couldn't do the easy thing of changing Hamilton's tyres for bad ones; strange, given that McLaren are in the conspiracy as well.

:p

#82 MaxCrazyEddieCayer

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:40

Can i have the phone number for any of your drug dealers please?? its seems a lot of you are getting much better drugs than i am!! A Conspiracy!!! That's a Good One!!!

#83 BMW4life

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:40

Not sure what a pay driver means. Alosno is the biggest pay driver out there with his Spanish sponsorship.

Now, besides the FIA's refusal to ban DDD for 2011 and schumacher's domination, I have never had real, major complaints about F1. F1 has always been F1 for me. Traction control legalization, change to v8's, elimination of TC, rev-limiting the v8's, standard ecu, long life engines and gearboxes, changes to qualifying formats, DRS, elimination of tire war (took a while to accept. but), resource blah blah blah agreement, elimination of pit stops, KERS, tactor-like front wings, elimination of body-work flipups, keeping EBD during the season, (I thought the 2008 and prior cars were gorgeous). Even these tyres, looking at the poor durability during testing and the first race. I have a mind that's as open to change as any.

This though, has me concerned. I'm with Risil on this one, epsecially when we consider that Pirelli complained about having to throw away unused tyres at the end of each weekend. Having to provide different grades from one track to another means, there will be batches sitting around for weeks at a time. I think this is what's going on and for the first time in my life, I gotta say that this isn't F1. :confused:

#84 RealRacing

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:44

Seeing how Pirelli is treating criticism of their tyres and emphasizing the "show" aspect of F1, and knowing BE, I would not discard this immediately. There was also talk, when switching to Pirelli, of a worry that they might favor a fellow Italian marque. Knowing Ferrari and after Singapore 2008, I would not put anything past anyone.

#85 rdebourbon

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:45

I'm finding it hard to understand how Mercedes/redbull can be awesome one race then midfield the next, does temperatures really alter the performance that much?


Yeah I am finding it very hard to reconcile this aspect too - as per my first post.. One would expect the bigger teams to be able to replicate performance pretty reliably - but even with all their vast resources they simply can't seem to extract the performance consistently..

Nonetheless it appears that they truly are that sensitive - look at this past quali.. a cloud blew over the circuit right at the end of Q2, the track temp dropped 4/5degrees and team mates were left seconds apart on "ultimate" pace - simply unable to match times set by team mates a couple of minutes earlier in the "same" equipment..

It almost feels that with such a key component of performance having such a minuscule sweet spot and being so ultra-sensitive they may as well have a lottery draw each race for the rest of the season..

#86 Anomnader

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:47

but the teams must have sensors on the tyres to check the optimum operating temperature.

#87 AlexS

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:51

I'm finding it hard to understand how Mercedes/redbull can be awesome one race then midfield the next, does temperatures really alter the performance that much?


What is the surprise?don't you noticed now that the span of 1 sec separates 1st from 14th?

Edited by AlexS, 13 May 2012 - 16:56.


#88 rdebourbon

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:53

but the teams must have sensors on the tyres to check the optimum operating temperature.


They do!

Virtually every car has a rear facing infra-red sensor mounted in the floor in front of the rear tyres.. Not only do they get real time pressure info, they also get the exact temperature across the entire tyre width at regular sample intervals (perhaps only at end of race with a full ECU download - but they still get it!) - and yet after thousands and thousands of kilometres we're expected to just believe that ALL of the smartest racing engineers in the world haven't figured out the formula for consistent performance yet..

Hmm - forgive me but I smell a rat!!

#89 Gilles12

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:57

They do!

Virtually every car has a rear facing infra-red sensor mounted in the floor in front of the rear tyres.. Not only do they get real time pressure info, they also get the exact temperature across the entire tyre width at regular sample intervals (perhaps only at end of race with a full ECU download - but they still get it!) - and yet after thousands and thousands of kilometres we're expected to just believe that ALL of the smartest racing engineers in the world haven't figured out the formula for consistent performance yet..

Hmm - forgive me but I smell a rat!!


But from what Mark Hughes says it's the carcass temperature that's the key and as yet not one has found a way to measure that

#90 spacekid

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:02

Did anyone else notice that the BBC used the track 'Sabotage' in tribute to Adam Yauch?

Its clearly a message.

#91 Anomnader

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:03

Redbull can't understand it either

#92 spacekid

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:04

Yeah I am finding it very hard to reconcile this aspect too - as per my first post.. One would expect the bigger teams to be able to replicate performance pretty reliably - but even with all their vast resources they simply can't seem to extract the performance consistently..

Nonetheless it appears that they truly are that sensitive - look at this past quali.. a cloud blew over the circuit right at the end of Q2, the track temp dropped 4/5degrees and team mates were left seconds apart on "ultimate" pace - simply unable to match times set by team mates a couple of minutes earlier in the "same" equipment..

It almost feels that with such a key component of performance having such a minuscule sweet spot and being so ultra-sensitive they may as well have a lottery draw each race for the rest of the season..


Well this is the weird thing. In some quali sessions the cars are running reliably and every car on the grid appears to be the same speed (or limited to the same speed by the performance of the tyres), but then a tiny change in temperature and they are all over the place.

I don't go for the conspiracy angle, but its not right.

#93 rdebourbon

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:04

But from what Mark Hughes says it's the carcass temperature that's the key and as yet not one has found a way to measure that


Do you have a link to that article?

If it is the carcass - I would expect the teams to mount a couple of internal temperature probes within the tyre to start co-relating external temp to internal temp and the way in which heat moves through the synthetic rubber and to verify thermal coefficients etc.. But, I would have expected this sort of investigation to happen as a natural part of testing a new compound so that the tyre models could be kept in sync.. I wouldn't expect teams to be so much at sea after so many kms of use and so many GBs of actual data..

#94 August

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:27

There is an argument that the results are somewhat being doctored, Pirelli may be sending over special tyres to teams in a bit to ensure there is a level of unpredictability. The teams don't know they have them because they are randomly allocated, although Pirelli know exactly who are getting them.


Any source for that? If there's, then I could believe this. On the other hand, I don't rule out this possibility completely.

#95 smoothcrim

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:31

I think that the tyres are so degradable it might not be possible to ensure all the tyres are equal.Look at the chunks of rubber flying of the cars,how can they say tyre A will shed rubber at the same rate as tyre B?They have gone to far,i was a supporter but today was a farce.



#96 Dunder

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:36

So was thinking about this for a while.

There is an argument that the results are somewhat being doctored, Pirelli may be sending over special tyres to teams in a bit to ensure there is a level of unpredictability. The teams don't know they have them because they are randomly allocated, although Pirelli know exactly who are getting them.

It may explain why one weekend one team looks great and the next weekend they're all at sea. The Top teams are always there or there about because of superior downforce, but you can tell with smaller teams. Sauber hasn't been able to replicate their performance from Malaysia, we'll see if Williams can replicate this in Monaco.

This adds some weight as F1 is about to go public, and markets look towards a popular brand liked by everyone rather then enthusiast.


How did Williams know which tyres to give Maldanado? Same with Ferrari/Alonso?

#97 rdebourbon

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:57

How did Williams know which tyres to give Maldanado? Same with Ferrari/Alonso?

I was under the impression that an entire drivers allocation is picked at the start of a weekend.. if this is the case, then 1 or 2 random drivers *could* be allocated an entire set of "super" tyres which would last the entire weekend, while everyone else gets the degrading control tyre... The FIA is no longer testing the tyres to the extent they used to in the days of a tyre war because "its the same for everyone".. but what if its not and they're just not bothering to check...

#98 fieraku

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:17

Dunno about that,it's possible but here's what I posted after the race.Puzzling indeed,Hammer the tire whisperer? This show is turning into a freaky one.



If Lewis had started on pole I believe he would have won - he was totally on top of the tyres this weekend quite clearly - when he's in tune with his tyres he's one of the best out there, easily.


True. I'm still baffled how he could "push" in the first 30 laps on old as dirt tires. :confused:



#99 Dunder

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:17

I was under the impression that an entire drivers allocation is picked at the start of a weekend.. if this is the case, then 1 or 2 random drivers *could* be allocated an entire set of "super" tyres which would last the entire weekend, while everyone else gets the degrading control tyre... The FIA is no longer testing the tyres to the extent they used to in the days of a tyre war because "its the same for everyone".. but what if its not and they're just not bothering to check...


Technically speaking the tyres are allocated (by number/unique identifier) by the FIA, not by Pirelli.


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#100 JV97

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:41

Engineers say repeatedly how the good thing about Pirelli's is they are exactly the same each race.