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Top 20 Greatest F1 Drivers of all time - BBC list [split]


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#801 as65p

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 13:28

Now, Schumacher is different.


No he isn't. Every driver fan will argue that his man's achievments and virtues are undervalued, and his transgressions overblown. As you're just doing for Schumacher.

No difference at all.

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#802 schubacca

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 13:39

No he isn't. Every driver fan will argue that his man's achievments and virtues are undervalued, and his transgressions overblown. As you're just doing for Schumacher.

No difference at all.


Yeah, but you got to agree that MS does seem to be under greater scrutiny that some others....

That may change in 10 years, but now...



#803 as65p

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 13:47

Yeah, but you got to agree that MS does seem to be under greater scrutiny that some others....

That may change in 10 years, but now...


Of course he's watched / talked about more than Ricciardo or Verne. Are you really surprised by that? Would you rather have him a low profile like other drivers with similar results?

#804 sailor

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 13:55

The more that I think about it as objectively as I can, their is no shame in MS being 4th.

Clark, Fangio, Senna, Prost, Schumacher.

Heck....

Any order to put them..... The company is good :)

Vettel 8th on the other hand.....


Are you trying to say that Vettel who is a double consecutive champ in one of the most competitive era is not even worthy of top 10?

#805 schubacca

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 14:27

Of course he's watched / talked about more than Ricciardo or Verne. Are you really surprised by that? Would you rather have him a low profile like other drivers with similar results?


Greater scrutiny compared to the other greats....

#806 schubacca

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 14:31

Are you trying to say that Vettel who is a double consecutive champ in one of the most competitive era is not even worthy of top 10?


MS, AS, AP, JC, JMF, FA, JS, NL, GH....

It is pretty crowded in the top 10 as it is.

No slight to Vettel.....

Just my opinion.

#807 Wander

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 15:01

Vettel is going to be 3 times world champion this year though.

#808 ali_M

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 15:50

No he isn't. Every driver fan will argue that his man's achievments and virtues are undervalued, and his transgressions overblown. As you're just doing for Schumacher.

No difference at all.


This isn't about a discussion board and its activities. If that's the case, then I'll agree with you. This is about the media, journalism and a team of respectable journalists coming up with t a list of greats in order of rank. The article on Schumacher is special indeed. I can't wait to see the one on Senna.

#809 sailor

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 16:20

MS, AS, AP, JC, JMF, FA, JS, NL, GH....

It is pretty crowded in the top 10 as it is.

No slight to Vettel.....

Just my opinion.



maybe to you and a bunch of fellow forrummers.

but to the casual bbc site visitor - not finding the current double champ in top 10 will only leave him wondering waht the deal with F1 (at best) or Beeb (at worst) is?

#810 as65p

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 16:21

This isn't about a discussion board and its activities. If that's the case, then I'll agree with you. This is about the media, journalism and a team of respectable journalists coming up with t a list of greats in order of rank. The article on Schumacher is special indeed. I can't wait to see the one on Senna.


It's about your perception that MS is treated differently to all other drivers (by 'media, journalism and a team of respectable journalists'), and I still don't see that as objectively true. If it were, it would imply that MS is measured unfairly, and with a different stick than everyone else. Still sounds like a fans perception to me, unhappiness of ones favourites ranking is explained by the world (i.e. 'media, journalism and a team of respectable journalists') being wrong, not ones own judgement.

You'd have a better case if in the majority of similar lists MS would come out on top, the BBC being the only one to place him as low as 4th. Yet my impression is (could be wrong, I don't keep track of such rankings) that 3rd or 4th is more or less MS' average ranking over the years. In that case it would mean that basically everyone is wrong about Schumacher apart from his fans, what realistic chance of that?

#811 juicy sushi

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 16:23

Ok, I have only finished Senna and Prost so far and it makes for very interesting reading:

Senna had an average finishing position of 3.28, while Prost had an average finishing position of 3.06 over their careers. The average finish, as a % of their teammates was 0.85 and 0.71 respectively (lower is better), which when multiplied by the average finish, leads to a handicapped average finishing position of 2.77 for Senna and 2.16 for Prost. The measure definitely rewards consistency, as win it or bin it drivers might get more points, but not a higher average finish. Interestingly, Senna's two worst performances as a % of his teammates pace, were against Prost. Prost's two worst performances by the same measure were against Niki Lauda in 1984 and Stefan Johansson in 1987.

I will try and do more as quickly as possible, next up are Ascari and Fangio.

Edited by juicy sushi, 24 October 2012 - 16:25.


#812 as65p

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 16:23

Greater scrutiny compared to the other greats....


Not at all, IMO. Any why should it be so anyway?

#813 LiJu914

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 17:03

You'd have a better case if in the majority of similar lists MS would come out on top, the BBC being the only one to place him as low as 4th. Yet my impression is (could be wrong, I don't keep track of such rankings) that 3rd or 4th is more or less MS' average ranking over the years. In that case it would mean that basically everyone is wrong about Schumacher apart from his fans, what realistic chance of that?



I randomly looked up some rankings from recent years - MSC was usually 1st or 2nd.

Not that it really matters... (As i already said, imho all these rankings are quite artificial and i think the order within the Top 5 is basically a matter of "taste").

Edited by LiJu914, 24 October 2012 - 17:05.


#814 PinkZepStones

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 17:08

Are you trying to say that Vettel who is a double consecutive champ in one of the most competitive era is not even worthy of top 10?



:rolleyes: If Prost can only muster 5th Vettel is never going to make a top 10.

#815 sailor

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 17:14

:rolleyes: If Prost can only muster 5th Vettel is never going to make a top 10.

Why.

Should have used another example. Someone who didn't make top 10.

#816 H2H

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 17:37

Not really. After all we are constantly told that the most important thing in motor racing history is Statistics. And British drivers have been disproportionately successful in earning Statistics such as World Titles. May as well say Finland has too many drivers, after all the Finns did produce Leo Kinnunen and Mikko Kozarowitsky.

Besides which, had it been an all-time list, there are only really two candidate British drivers from before 1939 - and one of them was half-Irish and US-born. But would that mean Italian drivers would be disproportionately reprsented, surely? Nuvolari and Varzi in the top ten despite there being fewer Italian than Scots F1 world champs...


I think you didn't quite understand the point. Obvioulsy British drivers had great success in F1, that is absolutely clear and well known. The point is that one can argue that other non-British drivers, even more successful in earning Statistics such as World Titles and arguably equally talented are consistently ranked quite a bit behind their British peers. This goes especially for the first 3 of the British drivers. This is what I see as a clear bias. It might be not intended but it is certainly deeply ingrained.



#817 as65p

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 18:00

I randomly looked up some rankings from recent years - MSC was usually 1st or 2nd.

Not that it really matters... (As i already said, imho all these rankings are quite artificial and i think the order within the Top 5 is basically a matter of "taste").


Agree on the last paragraph. However, I'm surprised you say MS is first in such polls frequently, that wasn't my impression. Care to name a few polls MS came first in?

#818 LiJu914

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 18:29

Agree on the last paragraph. However, I'm surprised you say MS is first in such polls frequently, that wasn't my impression. Care to name a few polls MS came first in?


I said 1st and 2nd.

Polls? Most of of these lists are made by some writers, aren´t they?

When i looked around daily mail and guardian put him in 1st. Autosport and several web-sources had him in 2nd place behind Senna.
IIRC there was also something like a poll in a knockout-tournament-style not too long ago (of course it´s the idea of a k.o.-system is quite silly), in which MSC and AS reached the finals and Senna won by 55% vs 45% or so. Found it: click

#819 Jimisgod

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 18:39

Spence - now more experienced - might have had a relatively good season compared with Stewart in 67 - at least on paper. But in fact, he just hadn´t Stewart´s pace. But Stewart had a huge number of mechanical troubles with his car. He was able to finish just two races that year - but achieved a 2nd and 3rd place-finish in those occasions.

Points aren´t a very good indicator, when the car is rarely able to achieve points or only with some luck.
Taylor was almost never faster than Ireland. In some occasions he was even slower, despite having further developed equipment. And it´s not really like Ireland was cream of the crop himself...


Taylor's victory at Natal came when the car of Hill failed, and Clark had started in 22nd and raced his way up to 2nd. His win in Mexico was by virtue of Clark taking over the car. Only at Cape did he honestly beat Clark on pace, but that was once from dozens of starts.

Spence had roughly the same pace in the BRM as the 25 though. He was new, but Clark was out-qualifying him by a wide margin, poles and 2nds vs. around 8-14.

At the 1967 BRDC trophy, when non championship races meant something, Spence was 3rd and Stewart 1st in qualifying. That said, The greatest gap I think was 6th Stewart, 12th Spence and the least was when Spence out-qualified Jackie, 11th vs. 12th, twice. Average was probably like Stewart 2 or 3 places ahead.

Not entirely sure how a different driver in a new car in 1970 relates to what Clark did in 1962, '63 and '64. I agree it is unfair to judge Schumacher on the failures of his teammates to dominate as he did, but then again, Clark did fairly comprehensively beat a WDC Graham Hill in the same car, which Schumacher didn't.

Either way its semantics given no one respectable will ever place Schumacher or Clark outside the top 4 or 5 drivers, and judging between them is pointless. But that was never my intention.

Edited by Jimisgod, 24 October 2012 - 18:40.


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#820 as65p

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 18:40

I said 1st and 2nd.

Polls? Most of of these lists are made by some writers, aren´t they?

When i looked around daily mail and guardian put him in 1st. Autosport and several web-sources had him in 2nd place behind Senna.
IIRC there was also something like a poll in a knockout-tournament-style not too long ago (of course it´s the idea of a k.o.-system is quite silly), in which MSC and AS reached the finals and Senna won by 55% vs 45% or so. Found it: click


Okay, might have been wrong with my impression, looks like MS is placed regularily higher than on the BBC list.

Even so, I'd still blame this more on his comeback than any deliberate conspiracy among british journalists.

#821 MightyMoose

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 18:41

Please remain on topic and keep to the parameters of discussing only those who have so far appeared on the list.

Debate about Clark, Senna etc can wait till we know their position. At that point you can argue why one is higher than the others and whether a "legacy of death" has improved how they are perceived.

Thanks.

#822 apoka

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 18:44

:rolleyes: If Prost can only muster 5th Vettel is never going to make a top 10.

He is already 8th on the list and 25 years old. The top 5 are a step up from the rest of the list and it will be hard for anyone to make it into that group (although Vettel may do it considering his achievements and age).


#823 man

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 20:48

One has to say that the order given by Benson is laughable to say the least yet it somehow reflects the state of play in other ways. Anyhow, the fact that Prost a driver that is as refined as he is is behind Schumacher - a mistake prone driver with multiple and serious question marks merely provides another fundamental example of what is wrong with the list. Still, it is there for entertainment and should be treated as such.

#824 aditya-now

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 22:17

I said 1st and 2nd.

Polls? Most of of these lists are made by some writers, aren´t they?

When i looked around daily mail and guardian put him in 1st. Autosport and several web-sources had him in 2nd place behind Senna.
IIRC there was also something like a poll in a knockout-tournament-style not too long ago (of course it´s the idea of a k.o.-system is quite silly), in which MSC and AS reached the finals and Senna won by 55% vs 45% or so. Found it: click


In my opinion this regular 2nd place that Michael used to score in such polls is now going to deteriorate to 4th or 5th, thanks no doubt to Michael's showing in 2010-2012.

The BBC Top 20 is just the beginning of that trend.


#825 LiJu914

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 22:35

The BBC Top 20 is just the beginning of that trend.


Maybe. ...chill the champagne.


#826 Zippel

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 23:21

One has to say that the order given by Benson is laughable to say the least yet it somehow reflects the state of play in other ways. Anyhow, the fact that Prost a driver that is as refined as he is is behind Schumacher - a mistake prone driver with multiple and serious question marks merely provides another fundamental example of what is wrong with the list. Still, it is there for entertainment and should be treated as such.


The thing about Prost is, after a critical point in his career, didn't try to go all out in wet conditions and thus was not as successful there... even refusing to participate in a wet race at one point. Many perceptions are that the brilliant drivers prove themselves in wet conditions and so we saw many cases where Prost was.... not at the pointy end. So the fact that Prost proved he could win in a variety of cars while making so few mistakes escapes people. That and the Senna factor of course. Oh, and I think the whole political manoeuvring behind the scenes doesn't endear Prost to a lot of people in the same way it doesn't for Ferrari.

Edited by Zippel, 24 October 2012 - 23:24.


#827 oetzi

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 23:35

In my opinion this regular 2nd place that Michael used to score in such polls is now going to deteriorate to 4th or 5th, thanks no doubt to Michael's showing in 2010-2012.

Nope, it'll happen because the Uk motorsport press & establishment, and some of the motorsport audience don't like him, not because of what he does, did or didn't.

Senna wouldn't make top 5 if he hadn't been a bit mystical then died, but I remember him being a bit mystical and dying, and he'd make my top 5.

Schumacher destroyed a generation to the point it's accepted wisdom he didn't have any worthwhile opposition. He still qualified fastest at Monaco in his dotage (this year), ahead of the 'Greatest Crop Ever', but he is/was clearly rubbish. Lucky to get top 5 in the rankings. All about cheating, FIArrari, reptilians, and 'the boogie'.

That's life.


#828 aditya-now

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 23:47

All about cheating, FIArrari, reptilians, and 'the boogie'.

That's life.


Wow. Never heard about these things. FIArrari meaning they support Schumacher?

That's life.










 ;)


#829 aditya-now

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 00:05

The count of comments after the Michael Schumacher - #4 of all times is now up to 710!

This week's "great driver" stirred quit a debate among the fans - and what surprises me is the tendency of most comments - quit different to the tendency in "our" Michael Schumacher thread and the majority of opinion there.

#830 oetzi

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 00:16

“There is no such thing, at this date of the world’s history, in America, as an independent press. You know it and I know it. There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it will never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job. If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone. The business of the journalist is to destroy the truth; to lie outright; to pervert; to vilify; to fawn at the feet of Mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. You know it and I know it and what folly is this toasting an independent press? We are the tools and vassals for rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes.” – John Swinton, former Chief of Staff of the New York Times, called by his peers “The Dean of his profession”, was asked in 1953 to give a toast before the New York Press Club

#831 Kyo

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 00:27

Ok, I have only finished Senna and Prost so far and it makes for very interesting reading:

Senna had an average finishing position of 3.28, while Prost had an average finishing position of 3.06 over their careers. The average finish, as a % of their teammates was 0.85 and 0.71 respectively (lower is better), which when multiplied by the average finish, leads to a handicapped average finishing position of 2.77 for Senna and 2.16 for Prost. The measure definitely rewards consistency, as win it or bin it drivers might get more points, but not a higher average finish. Interestingly, Senna's two worst performances as a % of his teammates pace, were against Prost. Prost's two worst performances by the same measure were against Niki Lauda in 1984 and Stefan Johansson in 1987.

I will try and do more as quickly as possible, next up are Ascari and Fangio.

Which criteria did you use? I have quite different numbers, but I considered only races that they finished.

Senna had 2.46 0.61 1.50 (Senna had 5% more finishes than his team mates)
Prost had 2.80 0.74 2.07 (Prost had 35% more finishes than his team mates o.O)


#832 BoschKurve

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 00:46

In my opinion this regular 2nd place that Michael used to score in such polls is now going to deteriorate to 4th or 5th, thanks no doubt to Michael's showing in 2010-2012.

The BBC Top 20 is just the beginning of that trend.


One can only hope!

But I think it is only fitting it comes to this.

#833 BoschKurve

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 01:06

One thing still puzzling me: I don't get it how and why Stirling Moss is placed so high up. Then again, he was before my time - and it's questionable if Brabham, Piquet or Hakkinen would deserve a Top 10 entry instead of Moss.


Stirling Moss used to use a year or two year old F1 car in races because he absolutely loved beating the competition who had the "latest and greatest" with an older car.

Had not done that, he would have likely had more wins. He's widely considered to be the greatest driver to never win a WDC. While it is a F1 poll, Moss could drive sports cars as well as he could open-wheelers. He had absolutely no fear either.

#834 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 01:11

In my opinion this regular 2nd place that Michael used to score in such polls is now going to deteriorate to 4th or 5th, thanks no doubt to Michael's showing in 2010-2012.

The BBC Top 20 is just the beginning of that trend.


Michael's 2010 to 2012 were very much sub-standard from the rest of his career.

I think he was hurt a great deal in that motorcycle crash in 2009 which may have contributed to his poor performance. I remember seeing the video of that crash at the time and he was thrown around like a rag doll and landed very hard, laid motionless for quite a long time. It was a serious accident.

Oddly, the video seems to have all but disappeared. I looked for it a few times recently without any success. Does anyone have a link?

#835 LiJu914

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:42

Didn´t read the article about Prost before.

Tbh, as i´d read the MSC-article before, in which the author made his P.O.V. pretty clear about certain on-track incidents, i was suprised to read such a reticent portrayal of a particular key-moment in Prost´s career.

Mid-season, Prost announced his intention to leave - and he took with him to Ferrari the world title. He won because of poorer reliability on Senna's car, and after the Brazilian was disqualified in dubious circumstances following a collision between the two men in Japan


...in comparison to:

....meant the title went down to the wire between Schumacher and Williams' Damon Hill.
Schumacher won it but only after he deliberately drove into Hill, who was trying to pass him after seeing the Benetton go off the track at the previous corner. The collision put both men out of the race.


Dunno if it´s the same or different authors, but maybe they should arrange upon a more homogenous writing style, so that article/passages don´t read to divergent.

Edited by LiJu914, 25 October 2012 - 08:47.


#836 H2H

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:02

Dunno if it´s the same or different authors, but maybe they should arrange upon a more homogenous writing style, so that article/passages don´t read to divergent.


He doesn't even know he his biased to the core...

Edited by H2H, 25 October 2012 - 09:03.


#837 Ferrari2183

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:34

maybe to you and a bunch of fellow forrummers.

but to the casual bbc site visitor - not finding the current double champ in top 10 will only leave him wondering waht the deal with F1 (at best) or Beeb (at worst) is?

The thing with Vettel is that if we only use stats as a guide then he has no business in the top 10. He hasn't been tested in mediocre equipment since his rise to the top, hasn't had as long a career as some of the more illustrious names on the list, and is hardly that much better than Hamilton, if at all, to warrant being that much higher.

This BBC list is using different criteria for different drivers and smells of, I like him more and will twist the reasoning to suit my placing. Piquet, a triple champ, is ranked 16th for God sake behind Hakkinen although they have similar records.

Stirling Moss who won only 16 grand prix in a F1 career spanning 10+ years while finishing bridesmaid for a number of seasons is ranked 6th while Jackie Stewart (3 time champ) who won nearly 30% of F1 races contended while driving in other series as well is ranked behind him. If this weren't an F1 only list then Moss' inclusion that high in the top 10 would make sense but otherwise, no.

#838 as65p

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:04

Didn´t read the article about Prost before.

Tbh, as i´d read the MSC-article before, in which the author made his P.O.V. pretty clear about certain on-track incidents, i was suprised to read such a reticent portrayal of a particular key-moment in Prost´s career.



...in comparison to:


Dunno if it´s the same or different authors, but maybe they should arrange upon a more homogenous writing style, so that article/passages don´t read to divergent.


Certain perceptions ('myth' would be too strong a term IMO) are engraved deeply in motor racing fans folklore, and journalists are no different in that regard. I think it's got mostly to do with the trait of the human brain to put everything into easy to sort categories first, and only thereafter, maybe, look at the finer details. So we end up with Prost the smooth brainiac who'd never do anything dirty, Senna the bully, MS the cheat, and so on. Of course on closer look Prost did not always drive cleanly, the overwhelming majority of Sennas on-track battles were perfectly clean, and MS did questionable things on only a very few occasions. But it's almost impossible to get rid of the household labels that were once established for those men.

#839 aditya-now

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:46

Michael's 2010 to 2012 were very much sub-standard from the rest of his career.

I think he was hurt a great deal in that motorcycle crash in 2009 which may have contributed to his poor performance. I remember seeing the video of that crash at the time and he was thrown around like a rag doll and landed very hard, laid motionless for quite a long time. It was a serious accident.

Oddly, the video seems to have all but disappeared. I looked for it a few times recently without any success. Does anyone have a link?


Shocking to hear that the accident was so severe - I did not know that. So Michael can be happy that he is alive and I hope that he will not do any experiments anymore in this department.

As far as I have heard, he promised so much to his wife Corinna. Now it is horse-riding - of course another excellent opportunity to break his neck. But I guess he needs the adrenalin fix.

Concering the BBC list I must concur with some others - Prost in #4 and Schumacher in #5 would have probably more accurate - however, the sheer weight of Schumacher's statistical record probably helped him to gain 4th place.

As much as I did not like the BBC list for some inexplicable placings (Jack Brabham, Nelson Piquet, Fernando Alonso, Sebastian Vettel) initially, as much I must say I like the Top 20 now, the more the complete picture emerges. Probably any such list will always be imperfect, yet this list does make sense.

No wonder, as Murray Walker is behind it. Does anyone know who else than Walker and Benson contributed to the poll?

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#840 aditya-now

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:52

Certain perceptions ('myth' would be too strong a term IMO) are engraved deeply in motor racing fans folklore, and journalists are no different in that regard. I think it's got mostly to do with the trait of the human brain to put everything into easy to sort categories first, and only thereafter, maybe, look at the finer details. So we end up with Prost the smooth brainiac who'd never do anything dirty, Senna the bully, MS the cheat, and so on. Of course on closer look Prost did not always drive cleanly, the overwhelming majority of Sennas on-track battles were perfectly clean, and MS did questionable things on only a very few occasions. But it's almost impossible to get rid of the household labels that were once established for those men.


:up:

Excellent observations.


#841 LiJu914

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:46

This is definitely a point watching out for. So far, Sebastian has proved that he can dominate in a tailor-made car. That is the same that Michael has proved in his "greatest" period 2000 - 2004. Whether it is enough is up to your judgement.

For sure it looks nice statistically and makes other drivers in less fortunate surroundings (Hamilton, Alonso) look ordinary.

From what they have respectively shown so far, I would rather place Alonso in #8 and Vettel in #10.


Sure, but that´s part of some small contradictions in the BBC-ranking i tried to point out yesterday. On the one hand the BBC put emphasis on the argument, that success means very little without its circumstances - e.g. in order to eplain the relatively high ranking for Moss and the relatively low ranking for MSC in that regard.

On the other hand Vettel is above Alonso...primarily due to the equipment/success-rate he got so far.
And while the main differentiator between someone, who will be in the Top 3 soon, and Rindt is "just" their absolute (statistical) success (as i said, both showed basically the same performances at Lotus, but Rindt was only there for 1,75 seasons unlike the guy, who will be in the Top3) it might suddenly make the difference between P1 and P20.


Edited to please the bureaucratic correctness of our host.
 ;)

Edited by LiJu914, 25 October 2012 - 11:55.


#842 MightyMoose

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:48

Again, please keep to the parameters set out many times in this thread.

Someone has just brought in Jim Clark and as a consequence a whole list of off-topic posts have been removed.

There is just 3 names remaining, as soon as they are released you can talk about them, when all is done, this thread will lose its shackles and be open for anyone to post their own top 20 should they see fit, or debate which order the BBC top 20 should have been in.

Until a driver appears in this list, he's off-topic and posts taking the thread in that direction will be removed.

Thank you.

#843 ali_M

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 14:17

It's about your perception that MS is treated differently to all other drivers (by 'media, journalism and a team of respectable journalists'), and I still don't see that as objectively true. If it were, it would imply that MS is measured unfairly, and with a different stick than everyone else. Still sounds like a fans perception to me, unhappiness of ones favourites ranking is explained by the world (i.e. 'media, journalism and a team of respectable journalists') being wrong, not ones own judgement.

You'd have a better case if in the majority of similar lists MS would come out on top, the BBC being the only one to place him as low as 4th. Yet my impression is (could be wrong, I don't keep track of such rankings) that 3rd or 4th is more or less MS' average ranking over the years. In that case it would mean that basically everyone is wrong about Schumacher apart from his fans, what realistic chance of that?


It's an exchange of many view points based on perceptions of events directly witnessed or otherwise, and not only mine.

Additionally, 'group speak/conventional wisdom' do not gain validity based on the observation that many share such views. I'm a fan of Schumacher and many of the other drivers in so much as that I deeply appreciate what they are doing out there on the grid year after year. I'll step forward when in my opinion, they're being unjustly criticised.... NOT when they are being fairly or justly criticised. None of them are above reproach, especially Michael. There are many who criticise drivers, including Michael, with whom I have nothing to counter or disagree with. Their criticisms are certainly reasonable and appropriate in my view anyway. I don't have a lot of time for these boards and specifically chose Michael's, among other select few threads to participate in for the moment. I'll likely be only lurking again or gone completely for a while very soon.

I do take personal exception to what I consider dirty journalism. It's so based on presenting heresy or unproven claims, ESPECIALLY, defamatory ones as though they are facts. Very, very poor in my book since journalism provides one of the main sources of propagated group think and conventional wisdom. That article by Benson has way too much of that sort of journalism in it.

Please do not shroud the points I'm making into it being the rantings of a deluded fan who can't see things clearly.

Edited by ali_M, 25 October 2012 - 14:21.


#844 BoschKurve

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 14:36

I suppose I may be in the minority, but I would personally rank Alain Prost higher than Schumacher.

He was never a flashy driver, which I suppose may lose him points with the style-obsessed crowd, but he was an incredibly consistent, and quick driver. Were I building a team and had to pick between Alain and Michael, for me, Alain would be the easy pick. The consistency he had across multiple cars/teams is something that tells you just how great of a driver he was. I always felt his methodical approach to be fascinating to watch as it takes the utmost patience to be able to drive the way he did.

Perhaps the biggest drawback though for Prost is that he is the only multiple WDC to have the ignominy of being sacked by two teams in his career.

#845 ensign14

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 15:15

I suppose I may be in the minority, but I would personally rank Alain Prost higher than Schumacher.

Being in the minority is not a problem. More people have bought records by Barbra Streisand than by Patti Smith.

#846 Kvothe

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 15:27

I suppose I may be in the minority, but I would personally rank Alain Prost higher than Schumacher.

He was never a flashy driver, which I suppose may lose him points with the style-obsessed crowd, but he was an incredibly consistent, and quick driver. Were I building a team and had to pick between Alain and Michael, for me, Alain would be the easy pick. The consistency he had across multiple cars/teams is something that tells you just how great of a driver he was. I always felt his methodical approach to be fascinating to watch as it takes the utmost patience to be able to drive the way he did.

Perhaps the biggest drawback though for Prost is that he is the only multiple WDC to have the ignominy of being sacked by two teams in his career.


I think I have to agree,

when comparing between the two ho was the greatest driver, you only need to list the World Champions that Prost was able to beat with the same equipment,

Keke Rosberg
Nigel Mansell
Niki Lauda
Ayrton Senna
Damon Hill

and than compare to Schumacher.

Of course it all subjective.

Edited by Kvothe, 25 October 2012 - 15:28.


#847 LiJu914

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 15:45

I think I have to agree,

when comparing between the two ho was the greatest driver, you only need to list the World Champions that Prost was able to beat with the same equipment,

Keke Rosberg
Nigel Mansell
Niki Lauda
Ayrton Senna
Damon Hill

and than compare to Schumacher.

Of course it all subjective.


1st - Niki Lauda also beat him.
2nd - In my book Alain Prost never beat Senna. It´s more that his car-reliabiltiy did. Even (e.g.) Berger would´ve finish ahead of Senna in 1989, if he would´ve been in Prosts position - and also Mansell´s huge retirement-rate in 1990 was a big help to look comfortably ahead on paper (even though i think Prost would´ve been still ahead without that)
3rd - Damon Hill was a rookie and after he got some race experience, he outscored Prost in the 2nd half of 1993 despite retiring from the lead in Silverstone and Hockenheim


And regarding Schumacher:
Whom should he have beat after Senna/Prost were gone?
He was quicker than Piquet, when he joined Benetton without any experience or preparation, if you want a 1:1 comparison against a "name"

Of course he could´ve become teammate of Hill or Hakkinen later to fulfill the "equal equipment"-criteria. But i think it´s fair to say, that he didn´t beat them with far superior equipment.

Edited by LiJu914, 25 October 2012 - 15:47.


#848 ensign14

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 15:50

1st - Niki Lauda also beat him.
2nd - In my book Alain Prost never beat Senna. It´s more that his car-reliabiltiy did.

These two sentences are mutually contradictory.

#849 BoschKurve

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 15:50

Very good points Kvothe! :up:

That's always been my contention really with the high rankings of Michael. He never had had any World Champion teammate in his career outside of Nelson Piquet at the tail end of the 1991 season....and Nelson wasn't exactly as motivated as he once was. There's no truer test than facing off against a driver on your team who has won at least 1 WDC.

#850 LiJu914

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 15:56

These two sentences are mutually contradictory.



Both - Lauda and Prost - had to retire three times due to technical problems in 84.

Shall i really post the difference between Senna and Prost in 89 in contrast?

Edited by LiJu914, 25 October 2012 - 15:57.