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Top 20 Greatest F1 Drivers of all time - BBC list [split]


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#51 mursuka80

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 17:02

You say it like being Mansell is a bad thing.

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#52 1Devil1

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 17:13

You say it like being Mansell is a bad thing.


It's not a bad thing. Mansell was an fantastic driver. But wouldn't count Mansell in the same league as Prost, Senna, Schumacher and Alonso. Isn't that the aim of Hamilton to get more titles and be remembered as a real giant? I was joking anyway. Maybe Lewis is going to win a lot of titles in the coming years. And if he's doing so, he will get my full respect.


#53 mursuka80

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 17:17

Multiple titles dont make you great. To me the Top 5 are Senna, MS, Prost, Clark and Hakkinen. These are personal preferences, so to me some network making Top lists is little stupid.

#54 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 17:19

Multiple titles dont make you great. To me the Top 5 are Senna, MS, Prost, Clark and Hakkinen. These are personal preferences, so to me some network making Top lists is little stupid.


Yes they do.

#55 mursuka80

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 17:27

Some people believe Gilles is one of the greats and he didnt win a title and Moss didnt either, so no, titles dont make you great. The pictures you leave to the fans heads is what makes you great.

#56 Dunder

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 18:14

Such lists are totally subjective and as such if you ask 100 people, you will get 100 different answers.

#57 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 18:18

Some people believe Gilles is one of the greats and he didnt win a title and Moss didnt either, so no, titles dont make you great. The pictures you leave to the fans heads is what makes you great.


If you win multiple titles you're great, it doesn't matter what people think. I agree about Gilles and Moss though.

Edited by MrMontecarlo, 22 May 2012 - 18:18.


#58 Romulan

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 18:56

Anytime people are asked to make a personal list - I think they should think for themselves and try to do an honest list that they personally think. Not the list they are expected to make. If you work at the BBC maybe you should try to be fair but you should have some personal opinion. It depends on what you prefer. Epic races and no championship might be just as good as a driver collecting points for the championship.

. . .

Personal favourites I would include before I consider drivers like Fittipaldi and Piquet are drivers like Peterson, Mansell or Gilles for having a very big impact through the way they were really racing. I think some of those drives are greater than a championship but those are the choices you would have to make. It is not science.


"The BBC F1 team were asked to provide their own personal top 20s, which were combined to produce a BBC list." - Andrew Benson

A personal favorite list is fine until someone taints it with statistics. An unbiased balance of science and opinion is near impossible to achieve. You and I can shuffle a deck of cards forever to get the hand we want, but cold, hard statistics are what we use to determine the winner.

`

#59 joshb

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 19:24

that will cause uproar against Lewis' fans, behind both Alonso AND Vettel

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#60 Kvothe

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 19:32

that will cause uproar against Lewis' fans, behind both Alonso AND Vettel


Not really
If it was going to happen it would have happened already, as most of us can guess who the other three and after the respective performances of both last year its to be expected. Similarly should the performances that both have showed this year remain the same, I would expect Lewis to be put ahead of Vettel.

Personally I'm just waiting to see how The Bunk manages to somehow show that Vettel being ahead of Lewis is another example of Benson's love for Lewis.

#61 tifosiMac

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 19:33

Well what a surprise a list that hasn't pleased everybody!! haha.
No list is accurate and is only opinion in the purest form. Everyones list would be different and nobody has the right answer.

#62 Skinnyguy

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 19:41

First of all, current drivers shouldn´t be there. Second, the focus should be on performance, not on stats.

About current drivers, trying to order Vettel, Hamilton, Räikkönen and Alonso is an impossible task, they´re too close. IMO Fernando and Kimi should be on top because they´ve had more seasons at top level, but Lewis and Vettel don´t fall short at all comparing their first seasons performances with the ones of the previous two.

#63 Kvothe

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 19:47

First of all, current drivers shouldn´t be there. Second, the focus should be on performance, not on stats.

About current drivers, trying to order Vettel, Hamilton, Räikkönen and Alonso is an impossible task, they´re too close. IMO Fernando and Kimi should be on top because they´ve had more seasons at top level, but Lewis and Vettel don´t fall short at all comparing their first seasons performances with the ones of the previous two.


I can honestly say I don't rate Kimi up there with Seb, Lewis and Alonso. He may be fast and a WDC but he'll always be the guy who lost to Massa who is now getting destroyed by Alonso for the third year in a row. I know comparing drivers based on team mates is a foolish way of proving which driver is the best (Buttoneer even created a specific thread mocking it) but Massa has performed so abysmally against Alonso I think it deserves to be taken into consideration.

Edited by Kvothe, 22 May 2012 - 19:48.


#64 mursuka80

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 19:50

He will prove you wrong kvothe.

#65 Kvothe

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 19:53

He will prove you wrong kvothe.


:up: :up: good answer
If he does I will keep that post as a permanent signature.

#66 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 20:01

You can't compare different eras...

We don't know how the current drivers would perform in the 50's or if Fangio could even be good with a current F1 car in the current grid...

But if someone told me: Look, we have a time-machine and you are going to be team-principal of an F1 team in a random year from 1950 to 2012. You can choose any driver that competed in F1 from any year and you will have him at his best age. I have no doubt, I'd pick Schumacher or Alonso (maybe even Alonso before Schumacher).

Yeah that's fair.

But if someone told me the same thing, only it's one season of say 13 races where there is a mix of equipment (meaning Race 1, 1959 spec cars, Race 2, 1993 spec cars, Race 3, 1963 spec cars....Race 10 2012 spec cars, etc), and you actually get the driver two years before his prime and the goal is to win the championship in the third season?

I think it's down to either Fangio or Schumacher, right?

#67 RealRacing

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 20:16

The only way of judging this close to objectively is by No. of WDCs, so AS=NP>SV=FA>KR=LH...

#68 Antti

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 20:29

Black Jack - constructing his own car and the team...
John Surtees - winning on two wheels and four...

LH might be up there someday, but being credited above those mentioned... words fail me.


#69 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 20:35

Black Jack - constructing his own car and the team...
John Surtees - winning on two wheels and four...

LH might be up there someday, but being credited above those mentioned... words fail me.


That doesn't count in a F1 list.

#70 KirilVarbanov

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 20:48

Yet another pointless chart aimed at creating storm of comments :)

#71 Raziel

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 20:59

So let's see..


Number 15: Lewis Hamilton (x1 WDC, x17 Wins, x21 Pole Positions, x11 Fastest Laps)
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Number 22: Jenson Button (x1 WDC, x13 Wins, x7 Pole Positions, x7 Fastest Laps)
Number 23: Kimi Raikkonen (x1 WDC, x18 Wins, x16 Pole Positions, x36 Fastest Laps)


I assume that JB is in front of Kimi on this list but even if it's the other way around, I think Kimi has much better results then Button and probably deserves to be closer to Hamilton then being just alongside Button. Hamilton in front of Piquet & Brabham x3 WDC's is just wrong! Wrong, wrong wrong! Well we could all agree that their list is not based on pure statistics. :p :well:

Edited by Raziel, 22 May 2012 - 21:04.


#72 discover23

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 21:16

Button ahead of Kimi .. is this guy a joke or what.

Lewis ahead of Piquet, Brahman ?..

clear example of Nationalism. I will not be surprised in Jim Clark tops the list and Moss is second.. :rotfl:

Edited by discover23, 22 May 2012 - 21:16.


#73 E.B.

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 21:19

clear example of Nationalism. I will not be surprised in Jim Clark tops the list and Moss is second.. :rotfl:


Yeah, only 2 WDCs between them, how rubbish were they :rotfl:

[/sarcasm]


#74 robefc

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 21:20

Im suprised Lewis is only 15th. I would have bet BRITISH Broadcasting Company would have put him in Top 10, but apparently they are not that delusional. Predictable Top 3 will be Senna, Fangio and MS.


Clark?

#75 motorhead

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 21:21

Well because even when the car was bad in 2009, Massa was still beating Kimi on points until his accident.


Like Button beat Lewis last year...so by that logic Button is faster than Lewis

#76 Wander

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 21:30

You can't compare different eras...

We don't know how the current drivers would perform in the 50's or if Fangio could even be good with a current F1 car in the current grid...

But if someone told me: Look, we have a time-machine and you are going to be team-principal of an F1 team in a random year from 1950 to 2012. You can choose any driver that competed in F1 from any year and you will have him at his best age. I have no doubt, I'd pick Schumacher or Alonso (maybe even Alonso before Schumacher).


I think that's an interesting thought and might even warrant a thread of its own. I would agree that the best choice would almost definitely have to be a post 1990 driver, but I would rather pick Senna than Schumacher. I also think Alonso, Hamilton and Räikkönen are the best of the current crop so maybe one of them could do the job in any car.



#77 BetaVersion

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 21:33

I imagine how brazilians would bash this list, merely for placing Hamilton ahead of Piquet and Fittipaldi, respectively a 3 and 2 WDC.

#78 TheBunk

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 21:33

So let's see..


Number 15: Lewis Hamilton (x1 WDC, x17 Wins, x21 Pole Positions, x11 Fastest Laps)
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Number 22: Jenson Button (x1 WDC, x13 Wins, x7 Pole Positions, x7 Fastest Laps)
Number 23: Kimi Raikkonen (x1 WDC, x18 Wins, x16 Pole Positions, x36 Fastest Laps)


I assume that JB is in front of Kimi on this list but even if it's the other way around, I think Kimi has much better results then Button and probably deserves to be closer to Hamilton then being just alongside Button. Hamilton in front of Piquet & Brabham x3 WDC's is just wrong! Wrong, wrong wrong! Well we could all agree that their list is not based on pure statistics. :p :well:


Kimi has 36 fastest laps? WOW!!

#79 Kvothe

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 21:36

Like Button beat Lewis last year...so by that logic Button is faster than Lewis


I would suggest you read my whole argument next time.

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#80 Pudu

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 21:39

Don't want to sound heartless and a bit of a p***k but i don't get all the fuss around Gilles and i honestly think that had he lived he wouldn't be half as well revered as he is now. I'd like to stress that i'm not from his time and only have the raw statistics to go on and the odd youtube video but i regard him as a very good, flamboyant racer, but not a great.

*Cue outcry.



It's such a subjective exercise there is no right answer, obviously. You can't compare eras. Even within eras it nearly impossible to compare drivers (for instance Alonso was likely the better driver in 2010 but Vettel took the title, and as for 2011 who knows).

The best indicator is what a driver's peers say of them. To that end Gilles deserves to rank among the greats. Yes, he died prematurely, and therefore people are more generous. But I recall an interview with Ferrari team member who called Gilles the greatest Ferrari driver ever. He said the team coalesced around him and were inspired by him unlike any other driver before or after - including Schumacher. His competition called him the fastest driver of all time.

Stats mean far less than what the driver managed to accomplish on and off track, how they pushed their equipment and their competitors, and how they changed the sport. My point is that you have to take each driver in context to assess greatness - making comparison pointless.

Pointless, but fun.

#81 FenderJaguar

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 21:48

Yeah that's fair.

But if someone told me the same thing, only it's one season of say 13 races where there is a mix of equipment (meaning Race 1, 1959 spec cars, Race 2, 1993 spec cars, Race 3, 1963 spec cars....Race 10 2012 spec cars, etc), and you actually get the driver two years before his prime and the goal is to win the championship in the third season?

I think it's down to either Fangio or Schumacher, right?


Bump! Great thought! Can't decide who I would choose but Senna, Clark and Stewart...

and please - could some of the posters lose the endless stats game where you talk about 2007 and 2008 in every thread?


#82 Wander

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 21:49

Kimi has 36 fastest laps? WOW!!

Yes, 3rd most in history after Schumacher and Prost.

#83 Mandzipop

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 21:50

Clark?


I can pretty much work out who a make up most of the remaining 14. As 3 of them are from the current grid, Schumacher, Alonso and Vettel, then on top of that there are some really obvious ones (not all WDC's).

I am going to hazard a guess of 15 candidates for the remaining 14 spots (in alphabetical order).

Ascari
Alonso
Clark
Fangio
Hakkinen
Lauda
Mansell
Moss
Prost
Senna (A)
Schumacher (M)
Stewart
Surtees
Vettel
Villeneuve (G)

That is a tough order to call of which one doesn't make it as I think they all deserve to be in the top 20. Just my opinion though.


#84 Cesc

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 21:58

Well, Hamilton shouldn´t be that high, definetely. If I had to rate a driver, I would think about several factors:

1. Career record, obviously
2. Capacity to deal with difficult conditions and seasons (overperforming bad cars)
3. Capacity to be competitive with different teams and eras (MSchumacher was fast in 92, 93, 94, 95 ... and in 2001, 2002, 2003... when F1 and cars changed significantly).
4. Team mate comparision (and sorry, I´m thinking a career long comparision, for me, Hamilton is not better than Alonso although they were so close in performance in 2007)
5. And finally, something more subjective, the feeling that the driver gives after all. Something like the eagerness to be competitive in any circumstance that ultimately gives extra points despite the car, or whatever...

So among the current drivers, Alonso has proven to be good in all those aspects, Kimi as well (although in the 5th criteria I would put him behind Alonso). Vettel has the record, no doubt, but we still have to see how will he deal with difficult times, underperforming car, etc... And Hamilton has the speed, no doubt, but he lacks consistency ver a season and he is really struggling with the current tires, so point 3 could be considered an important weakness for him. And still, I would like to see Hamilton in another team at some point of his career. Everything is easier when you jump directly into a McLaren.


#85 E.B.

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 22:00

I hope Brooks makes it in, partly because he deserves it, but mainly to see the thread implode with accusations of rigging and nationalism from people who've never heard of him.




#86 TheBunk

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 22:18

Schumacher (M)


Pretty sure you didnt need to put the M. behind his name. I doubt theres a single soul on earth putting Ralf in that list. ;)

#87 Mandzipop

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 22:21

Pretty sure you didnt need to put the M. behind his name. I doubt theres a single soul on earth putting Ralf in that list.;)


Well as I had to include Gilles, then I had to ensure that nobody got confused with the other drivers.

#88 Anomnader

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 22:29

Wierd how every thread even if its nothing about him becomes another Lewis bash thread by the usual suspects. Why not concentrate on the others instead of doing everything they can to be bring lewis down. And as much as they hate Lewis being in the top 15 I bet these same people won't make a sqweak about Vettel being in the top 10.

#89 as65p

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 22:36

Wierd how every thread even if its nothing about him becomes another Lewis bash thread by the usual suspects. Why not concentrate on the others instead of doing everything they can to be bring lewis down. And as much as they hate Lewis being in the top 15 I bet these same people won't make a sqweak about Vettel being in the top 10.


You don't even see the irony in that sentence, or do you? Different people will make the same fuss about Vettels (or Alonsos, or Schumachers) placing in that list.

#90 1Devil1

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 22:37

Wierd how every thread even if its nothing about him becomes another Lewis bash thread by the usual suspects. Why not concentrate on the others instead of doing everything they can to be bring lewis down. And as much as they hate Lewis being in the top 15 I bet these same people won't make a sqweak about Vettel being in the top 10.


And who are these people? Vettel in the top ten will mean a bunch of haters will post the theory about the Vettel who can only win in the best car - he doesn't belong in the top ten. This thread is about Hamilton because we only know the end of the list

#91 Skinnyguy

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 22:43

The only way of judging this close to objectively is by No. of WDCs, so AS=NP>SV=FA>KR=LH...


Yeah, that´s the most fair way.

And even so, back with the 4 current big stars, any of these drivers could be still no champion or 3 times champion by now changing little things that have nothing to do with their driving. I think trying to order them is pointless.

#92 spacekid

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 23:16

Wierd how every thread even if its nothing about him becomes another Lewis bash thread by the usual suspects. Why not concentrate on the others instead of doing everything they can to be bring lewis down. And as much as they hate Lewis being in the top 15 I bet these same people won't make a sqweak about Vettel being in the top 10.


Lewis is certainly a talking point!!

I very much doubt Vettel will be in the top ten. Even if he is, who cares? These polls are just peoples opinions, not all of them 'experts'. Does it really matter who a team of tv show makers judge F1 drivers they have never seen race?

I have no clue how to judge the relative skills of Fittipaldi and Alonso, for instance. No idea where I would start trying to gauge who was the 'better driver'. They were both great, and better than most of their peers. Thats enough for me.

#93 Tsarwash

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 23:19

The top 10 should include (no particular order)

Ascari
Fangio
Moss
Clark
Stewart
Lauda
Prost
Senna
Schumacher
Alonso


It's pretty much impossible to argue with that list of the top ten best ever.


#94 revlec

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 02:05

that will cause uproar against Lewis' fans, behind both Alonso AND Vettel


uproar?
I personally don't care because I know where Lewis belongs. ;)

#95 RealRacing

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 02:50

They should not include any current drivers in the list...it will only make some of them and their fans more unbearable...

#96 teejay

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 02:56

The only correct list, is my list

/every forum member on every f1 forum in the world

#97 aray

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 04:02

i am pretty sure vettel will be either 14 or 13...they won't risk placing him higher... ;)

#98 apoka

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 05:52

i am pretty sure vettel will be either 14 or 13...they won't risk placing him higher...;)

Well, I can see him a few places higher (but probably not on a BBC list). Of course you are only as good as your last race in forum logic, but his 2011 season was really special. You could argue that his car advantage over the season was smaller compared to other drivers (usually F1 greats as well) who had similarly dominant seasons. What speaks against him is the relatively short length of his career - every year you can compete on top level is an achievement so drivers with long successful careers are likely to be put higher.


#99 mariner

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 07:55

All these lists only end up as the subject of endless debate - which is probably why they are done at all - but I do have to take exception to today's coverage of Lewis Hamilton.
'
He is in at number 15, which may or may not be right, but one of Andrew Bensons statements about Hamilton simply beggars belief as a comment by one of the most widely read F1 journalists

"In Hamilton's case, his natural talent is so great that he can drive almost any car; "

He has only ever driven for McLaren in F1. His rise was so fast that he drove very few cars between karting and F1 so it is an utterly inaccurate statement. The word isnt " could" which might wel be true given the guy is a natural talent but " can" which clearly isn't true.

Its a sad part of modern motor racing that F1 drivers are never seen in any other type of car and you can't get any rapid measure of the skill of a new driver versus an established F1 star very often.

Without being all " nostalgia forum" about it when the F1 stars also did F2 etc. then it was obviuos just how good a Jochen Rindt was when he beat Jim CLark or another F1 star in a F2 race.

Gven the limits on testing these days the F1 drivers do actually have plenty of time to go into other races so its a shame they do not do so.

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#100 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 08:16

It's pretty much impossible to argue with that list of the top ten best ever.


It is possible, Brabham should be there.