Jump to content


Photo
* * - - - 7 votes

Top 20 Greatest F1 Drivers of all time - BBC list [split]


  • Please log in to reply
1662 replies to this topic

#1151 Tiakumosan

Tiakumosan
  • Member

  • 281 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 November 2012 - 14:14

If it was based on Autosport F1 rankings, #1 could be Di Resta :rotfl:

Advertisement

#1152 D.M.N.

D.M.N.
  • RC Forum Host

  • 7,148 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 13 November 2012 - 15:33

Just a note, number 1 has already been announced:

From tonight's Inside F1 on the BBC News Channel - Fangio is number 2 meaning that number 1 is Ayrton Senna.



#1153 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,153 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 13 November 2012 - 15:37

One thing I would like to mention for those talking about Nuvolari and others is that this is a list of F1 drivers. F1 has only existed since 1950.

To do an all-encompassing list, the title would have to be changed from "F1" to "Grand Prix" since it would then open up the field to everyone who came before 1950.

#1154 ForeverF1

ForeverF1
  • RC Forum Host

  • 6,421 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 13 November 2012 - 15:41

From tonight's Inside F1 on the BBC News Channel - Fangio is number 2 meaning that number 1 is Ayrton Senna.

Sorry, but no way should Ayrton be number one. They are playing to the emotive crowds here.

#1155 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,153 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 13 November 2012 - 15:44

Sorry, but no way should Ayrton be number one. They are playing to the emotive crowds here.


Who should be number one then?

#1156 Glengavel

Glengavel
  • Member

  • 505 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 13 November 2012 - 15:47

Senna was one of the most skilful F1 drivers but his behaviour, on and off track, precludes him from labelled a 'great' driver.

#1157 ForeverF1

ForeverF1
  • RC Forum Host

  • 6,421 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 13 November 2012 - 15:50

Who should be number one then?

It should be between Alberto and Juan.

#1158 OoxLox

OoxLox
  • Member

  • 436 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 13 November 2012 - 15:59

It should be between Alberto and Juan.


And what about Tazio? If they were ranking Grand Prix drivers, not just specifically F1 drivers, I wonder where he'd be ranked? Cue the next massive bun fight :wave:

#1159 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,153 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:03

Senna was one of the most skilful F1 drivers but his behaviour, on and off track, precludes him from labelled a 'great' driver.


Off the track?

It should be between Alberto and Juan.


I'd disagree on Ascari. Great driver yes, but I'd still rank Fangio and Clark ahead of him.

Advertisement

#1160 ForeverF1

ForeverF1
  • RC Forum Host

  • 6,421 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:05

And what about Tazio? If they were ranking Grand Prix drivers, not just specifically F1 drivers, I wonder where he'd be ranked? Cue the next massive bun fight :wave:

They were not, as far as I know, ranking Grand Prix drivers, so, what is your point?

#1161 ForeverF1

ForeverF1
  • RC Forum Host

  • 6,421 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:10

I'd disagree on Ascari. Great driver yes, but I'd still rank Fangio and Clark ahead of him.

Having seen all of the driving, I am going to get slated for this I know, but, I see Clark (in F1) as similar to Vettel.

#1162 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,153 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:13

Sorry, but no way should Ayrton be number one. They are playing to the emotive crowds here.


Can't be. Watch the 'emotive crowds' argue their socks off how Senna didn't deserve to be voted no.1 in another meaningless poll.

Oh, I see you already started it yourself... :D  ;)

#1163 OoxLox

OoxLox
  • Member

  • 436 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:20

Having seen all of the driving, I am going to get slated for this I know, but, I see Clark (in F1) as similar to Vettel.


I'd probably agree if it were based only on his F1 races where he took the fastest car designed by the recognised genius of the time and led a lot of races from the front. The fact that Jimmy was superb in everything he sat his arse in and was also recognised by his peers as the best of them sets him above and beyond Vettel or any of the current crop IMHO.

Besides I don't think it's valid to put today's drivers in the same list as the guys who four-wheel-drifted fuel-air bombs around armco-free corners through forests and rocks, or had straw bales between them and drowning in Monte Carlo harbour. That was a completely different ball game.

#1164 ForeverF1

ForeverF1
  • RC Forum Host

  • 6,421 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:24

Can't be. Watch the 'emotive crowds' argue their socks off how Senna didn't deserve to be voted no.1 in another meaningless poll.

Oh, I see you already started it yourself... :D ;)

There is no doubt about it, Ayrton was special, was he the best? not in my mind.

#1165 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,153 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:29

Having seen all of the driving, I am going to get slated for this I know, but, I see Clark (in F1) as similar to Vettel.


I am intrigued, why do you see Clark as similar to Vettel?

#1166 ForeverF1

ForeverF1
  • RC Forum Host

  • 6,421 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:31

I am intrigued, why do you see Clark as similar to Vettel?

In F1, they both were sat in dominant machinery.

#1167 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 2,817 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:33

Concerning "emotive crowds", I think it's pretty clear that for no other driver out of the top 5, "emotion" is such an important element of their respective popular image and rating as it is for Senna.

Edited by Jovanotti, 13 November 2012 - 16:34.


#1168 ForeverF1

ForeverF1
  • RC Forum Host

  • 6,421 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:35

Concerning "emotive crowds", I think it's pretty clear that for no other driver out of the top 5, "emotion" is such an important element of their respective popular image and rating as it is for Senna.

Or the expectation of who should be the top.

#1169 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,153 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:44

In F1, they both were sat in dominant machinery.


Which is true of most consistent race winners.

You could say the same of Fangio.

#1170 ForeverF1

ForeverF1
  • RC Forum Host

  • 6,421 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:47

Which is true of most consistent race winners.

You could say the same of Fangio.

I could, but I won't.

#1171 LiJu914

LiJu914
  • Member

  • 1,776 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:53

Which is true of most consistent race winners.

You could say the same of Fangio.


Well, Fangio "at least" won his titles with four different constructors.

#1172 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,153 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:59

Well, Fangio "at least" won his titles with four different constructors.


All of which were fielding the best cars on the grid.;)

#1173 LiJu914

LiJu914
  • Member

  • 1,776 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 13 November 2012 - 17:13

All of which were fielding the best cars on the grid.;)


...which was already implied in the answer to your post.


Except for a small detail.
I wouldn´t say, that the Maserati of 54 was undoubtedly the best car. When Fangio moved to Mercedes mid-season, he definitely had the best car - but he was already leading the WDC before.

But that is negligible.
My point was, that Fangio became always the major force in all these different enviroments, whereas we never saw Clark in F1 outside of his "cocoon" called Lotus. I´m not implying that he would´ve been useless somewhere else - but still....it would´ve certainly been interesting to see him in another team (e.g. nowadays also most people want to see Vettel leave Red Bull sooner or later).

Edited by LiJu914, 13 November 2012 - 17:30.


#1174 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,153 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 13 November 2012 - 17:34

There is no doubt about it, Ayrton was special, was he the best? not in my mind.


That's of course a perfectly valid opinion. And a bit more reasonably phrased than "no way should Ayrton be no.1".

As I see it, everyone averaging top-5 in such lists can be expected to be no.1 in some of them, and I wouldn't argue a "no way" against any of them. As for the "emotive crowd" that goes both ways when it comes to Senna. Surely Fangio or Clark would have been less controversial no.1's, and maybe that's precisely the reason why a broadcaster, living off publicity and headlines, hasn't chosen one of these two but Senna.

Again, watch the discussion unfold, after some 10 pages more I predict the emotions running at least as high anti-Senna as pro-Senna. I don't see the BBC's choice as a crowd pleaser at all, more like a sh*t stirrer.

#1175 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,153 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 13 November 2012 - 17:57

...which was already implied in the answer to your post.


Except for a small detail.
I wouldn´t say, that the Maserati of 54 was undoubtedly the best car. When Fangio moved to Mercedes mid-season, he definitely had the best car - but he was already leading the WDC before.

But that is negligible.
My point was, that Fangio became always the major force in all these different enviroments, whereas we never saw Clark in F1 outside of his "cocoon" called Lotus. I´m not implying that he would´ve been useless somewhere else - but still....it would´ve certainly been interesting to see him in another team (e.g. nowadays also most people want to see Vettel leave Red Bull sooner or later).


The big difference between Vettel and Jimmy Clark, is that Clark's contemporaries all believed he was by far a better driver than they were, and said as much.

You would not get that with Vettel, were you to ask his contemporaries if he is the best driver on the grid.

#1176 LiJu914

LiJu914
  • Member

  • 1,776 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 13 November 2012 - 18:23

The big difference between Vettel and Jimmy Clark, is that Clark's contemporaries all believed he was by far a better driver than they were, and said as much.

You would not get that with Vettel, were you to ask his contemporaries if he is the best driver on the grid.


I wasn´t comparing the qualities of Vettel and Clark.

It seems, you just want to contradict me for the sake of it.

btw. Good luck believing his colleagues would praise Clark so much , if he would drive nowadays.

Edited by LiJu914, 13 November 2012 - 18:24.


#1177 Kyo

Kyo
  • Member

  • 786 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 13 November 2012 - 18:32

So they placed the fastest as the greatest! *shocked*

#1178 Kvothe

Kvothe
  • Member

  • 6,812 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 13 November 2012 - 18:48

There is no doubt about it, Ayrton was special, was he the best? not in my mind.


The title of the thread is the greatest....

Whether he was or not, it is a far more subjective decision, than a poll based on who is the best.

Edited by Kvothe, 13 November 2012 - 18:49.


#1179 LiJu914

LiJu914
  • Member

  • 1,776 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 13 November 2012 - 18:53

Whether he was or not, it is a far more subjective decision, than a poll based on who is the best.



"Far more"...maybe...but in the sense of "Winning the lottery twice is far more unlikely than winning it once".

Advertisement

#1180 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 36,885 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 13 November 2012 - 18:54

In F1, they both were sat in dominant machinery.

How many WC wins did Clark's team-mates gather?

#1181 Kingshark

Kingshark
  • Member

  • 2,944 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 13 November 2012 - 18:57

So they placed the fastest as the greatest! *shocked*

So how exactly was Senna faster than Ascari, Fangio, Clark, Schumacher or even Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel today? You can't prove that.


Senna is so overrated. The guy wouldn't have been in the top 3 if it wasn't for his death. The most sainted driver ever. Even Prost was better than him.

#1182 1Devil1

1Devil1
  • Member

  • 2,572 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 13 November 2012 - 19:02

So they placed the fastest as the greatest! *shocked*


The fastest doesn't mean he is/was the best in overall terms. Formula One is about more than having one lap pace. I am not arguing Senna is on the wrong place as mentioned it is an individual list. But sometimes I am completely lost with this argument he was the best because of his natural talent/speed. Somehow Prost managed to beat him fair and square like a chess player. I guess formula one has more to offer and many fans love it.

#1183 Glengavel

Glengavel
  • Member

  • 505 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 13 November 2012 - 19:29

Off the track?


Ask Eddie Irvine!

#1184 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,153 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 13 November 2012 - 19:30

I wasn´t comparing the qualities of Vettel and Clark.

It seems, you just want to contradict me for the sake of it.

btw. Good luck believing his colleagues would praise Clark so much , if he would drive nowadays.


I mentioned Vettel because it has already been brought up before you posted, and you even mentioned people wanting to see Vettel leave to see how he does in another car. I think the Vettel comparison is unfair as it was always clear as to how far above everyone else Clark was. Either way, he was a driver worth celebrating because what he did had never been seen before by anyone.

You can't prove one way or another what his colleagues would have said about Jimmy if his career unfolded now. He was fast in everything he drove, that's a fact. There's very few drivers who are/were fast in everything they drive/drove.

#1185 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,153 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 13 November 2012 - 19:32

Ask Eddie Irvine!


Eddie Irvine is an idiot.

#1186 Currahee

Currahee
  • Member

  • 231 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 13 November 2012 - 19:44

I mentioned Vettel because it has already been brought up before you posted, and you even mentioned people wanting to see Vettel leave to see how he does in another car. I think the Vettel comparison is unfair as it was always clear as to how far above everyone else Clark was. Either way, he was a driver worth celebrating because what he did had never been seen before by anyone.

You can't prove one way or another what his colleagues would have said about Jimmy if his career unfolded now. He was fast in everything he drove, that's a fact. There's very few drivers who are/were fast in everything they drive/drove.


it is a myth that Jim Clark was fast in everything. As a Jim Clark fan I'm not biased.

He wasn't quick in his tractor. :lol:

#1187 SennaBoys

SennaBoys
  • Member

  • 59 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 13 November 2012 - 19:51

So how exactly was Senna faster than Ascari, Fangio, Clark, Schumacher or even Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel today? You can't prove that.


Senna is so overrated. The guy wouldn't have been in the top 3 if it wasn't for his death. The most sainted driver ever. Even Prost was better than him.


Well taking in mind it was the BBC who came up with the list, why don't you ask them instead of making personal attacks on drivers and making yourself look like a prize idiot ?? :down:

#1188 LiJu914

LiJu914
  • Member

  • 1,776 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 13 November 2012 - 20:05

I mentioned Vettel because it has already been brought up before you posted, and you even mentioned people wanting to see Vettel leave to see how he does in another car. I think the Vettel comparison is unfair as it was always clear as to how far above everyone else Clark was. Either way, he was a driver worth celebrating because what he did had never been seen before by anyone.


Reading your answers i always get the impression, that i tried to question Clarks legacy (even though your arguments to prove his qualities are pretty unspecific). I didn´t. I just pointed out a difference between him and Fangio.

You can't prove one way or another what his colleagues would have said about Jimmy if his career unfolded now.


I don´t have to. I´m just stating my opinion about that matter. If you think, nowadays the whole grid would say "Jimmy is so much better then everybody else" then say it, instead of deflecting.

He was fast in everything he drove, that's a fact. There's very few drivers who are/were fast in everything they drive/drove.


Irrelevant in a F1 list.

Edited by LiJu914, 13 November 2012 - 20:05.


#1189 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,153 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 13 November 2012 - 20:17

it is a myth that Jim Clark was fast in everything. As a Jim Clark fan I'm not biased.

He wasn't quick in his tractor. :lol:


:rotfl: :up:

He should have asked Chapman to do some modifications to it. :lol:

#1190 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,153 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 13 November 2012 - 20:23

Reading your answers i always get the impression, that i tried to question Clarks legacy (even though your arguments to prove his qualities are pretty unspecific). I didn´t. I just pointed out a difference between him and Fangio.

I don´t have to. I´m just stating my opinion about that matter. If you think, nowadays the whole grid would say "Jimmy is so much better then everybody else" then say it, instead of deflecting.

Irrelevant in a F1 list.


As for point two, we will never know.


#1191 Peter Perfect

Peter Perfect
  • Member

  • 4,838 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 13 November 2012 - 20:37

:rotfl: :up:

He should have asked Chapman to do some modifications to it. :lol:

But it probably would have fallen apart as it finished the last field  ;)

#1192 FenderJaguar

FenderJaguar
  • Member

  • 1,450 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 13 November 2012 - 21:23

It is a list with opinions and that's it. But I don't think Senna is overrated. He was a legend before he died. It is in the way we look at racing. He could do some things with the car that some drivers won't and I started watching F1 before he came into the scene so spare me the "it's only because he died crap". I have never seen that from drivers like Schumacher or Prost even though I rate them highly as well. As for the old era with Fangio and so on they were exciting but it was another time and another sport which makes it difficult to compare drivers from different eras to each other.

Edited by FenderJaguar, 13 November 2012 - 21:24.


#1193 E.B.

E.B.
  • Member

  • 1,635 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 13 November 2012 - 21:39

He was a legend before he died.


I may have misheard, and I've never had cause or chance to check since, but didn't James Hunt make some comment during the 1993 Canadian GP to the effect that Senna was the greatest ever?

I thought at the time that it was a mildly controversial viewpoint (although not far off the mark IMO), but then of course James himself died the following day.

Given the obsession with stats that pervades here, surely Senna would have been considered even more of a legend if he had lived? He'd probably have had at least a couple more titles, some at the expense of Schumi. And his poles record would be in the stratosphere.

Edited by E.B., 13 November 2012 - 21:40.


#1194 1Devil1

1Devil1
  • Member

  • 2,572 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 13 November 2012 - 21:40

It is a list with opinions and that's it. But I don't think Senna is overrated. He was a legend before he died. It is in the way we look at racing. He could do some things with the car that some drivers won't and I started watching F1 before he came into the scene so spare me the "it's only because he died crap". I have never seen that from drivers like Schumacher or Prost even though I rate them highly as well. As for the old era with Fangio and so on they were exciting but it was another time and another sport which makes it difficult to compare drivers from different eras to each other.


I can agree on Prost he never showed magic you have seen in the likes of Schumacher or Senna. He was a completely different type of driver, very calculated, calm, focused. In an equal car he was able to challenge the fastest driver of his generation. He used a different approach as Senna but he was equal successful as the Ayrton. It's our perception that we see the speculator, emotional drivers with different eyes. Nobody would argue Palo Maldini was better than Pele. He scored the goals and was a joy to watch. Their impact on their teams was immense. For the Schumacher-Part he did magical things with his car more than any other driver. Just rewatch his early Ferrari days and his best wet races and you will change your opinion he never drove outside of the cars limit

#1195 Glengavel

Glengavel
  • Member

  • 505 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 13 November 2012 - 22:46

Eddie Irvine is an idiot.


You don't just punch someone because he's an idiot.


#1196 Kyo

Kyo
  • Member

  • 786 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 14 November 2012 - 00:07

So how exactly was Senna faster than Ascari, Fangio, Clark, Schumacher or even Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel today? You can't prove that.

Senna is so overrated. The guy wouldn't have been in the top 3 if it wasn't for his death. The most sainted driver ever. Even Prost was better than him.

Usually there are 2 things that people agreed about Senna. His ability of taking everything the car has to offer over 1 lap and his incredible car control in the wet.

If you want prove go and watch his races in wet conditions and his qualifying laps. The fact that he out-qualified his teammates 90% of the time is a good indication too.

The rest don't deserve a reply so I won't give one...

The fastest doesn't mean he is/was the best in overall terms. Formula One is about more than having one lap pace. I am not arguing Senna is on the wrong place as mentioned it is an individual list. But sometimes I am completely lost with this argument he was the best because of his natural talent/speed. Somehow Prost managed to beat him fair and square like a chess player. I guess formula one has more to offer and many fans love it.

I just said he was the fastest, i didn't said the fastest is the one that will achieve the best overall results. I meant that it is quite natural to place the fastest as the greatest and so there is no surprise in doing it.

Tarso Marques (who the hell was he?) beat Alonso, Button beat Hamilton, Farina beat Fangio, de Angelis beat Mansell. Should I continue? Prost beat Senna, but was nothing like a chess player. Senna never had been involved in so many incidents like in 89 and he would still had won if not for so many mechanical problems.In the other hand 89 was the best ever season for Prost in terms of incidents and mechanical problems. Some stats just to illustrate.

Senna has spun off 0.50 times and collided 0.70 times on average per season (only counting the ones that resulted in retirement). Prost has 0.76 for spun off and 0.54 for collisions.
Senna has an average of 3.50 retirements per season because mechanical problems and Prost 2.92.

But in 89, Senna spun off 1 time, collided 2 times, had 4 mechanical problems and was disqualified in Japan. Prost collided 1 time and had 1 mechanical problem, way below his averages.

and IMO Prost was even more luckier thanks to McLaren been a rocketship and so the huge difference in speed meant only 1 place in the grid position or in the race result for Senna.

The general opinion here is that Senna was only fast in qualifying, but too inconsistent, crashed too much, caused all types of mechanical failures to the cars etc. It's certainly not what his averages show.


You don't just punch someone because he's an idiot.

I would say Senna didn't had a good behavior with anything related with racing inside or outside the track, but he was a completely different person when racing was not involved.

Edited by Kyo, 14 November 2012 - 00:10.


#1197 jj2728

jj2728
  • Member

  • 2,774 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 14 November 2012 - 00:09

Having seen all of the driving, I am going to get slated for this I know, but, I see Clark (in F1) as similar to Vettel.


Perhaps it should read Vettel as similar to Clark?
 ;)

#1198 Kingshark

Kingshark
  • Member

  • 2,944 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:48

Well taking in mind it was the BBC who came up with the list, why don't you ask them instead of making personal attacks on drivers and making yourself look like a prize idiot ?? :down:

When I said Senna is overrated and sainted, you should know that I did not personally attack Senna, but rather his fans (there are too many unintelligent of those).

Secondly, saying that a driver isn't as good as Prost and not in the top 3 greatest drivers list of all time is not an insult.

#1199 Kingshark

Kingshark
  • Member

  • 2,944 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:52

Usually there are 2 things that people agreed about Senna. His ability of taking everything the car has to offer over 1 lap and his incredible car control in the wet.

If you want prove go and watch his races in wet conditions and his qualifying laps. The fact that he out-qualified his teammates 90% of the time is a good indication too.

Couldn't you say the same about Schumacher, Fangio or Clark? In fact, couldn't you say the same about Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso today? There is no way of telling or knowing who was the fastest driver of all time - however, what is obvious is that Senna had certain... questionable traits.

His fanbase is no better, I'm afraid. Search up Senna, Go on any YouTube video, and write a comment claiming that there was a driver in history equally good or better than Senna. Within two days you will receive a bunch of bashing from highly-sensitive Senna admirers.

Advertisement

#1200 Wander

Wander
  • Member

  • 2,264 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 14 November 2012 - 07:41

I believe Senna did enough to show that he was the best of his generation, regardless of any questionable traits. Other than that, I don't know if you can properly compare him with other greats like Fangio or Clark etc.

Edited by Wander, 14 November 2012 - 07:45.