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Top 20 Greatest F1 Drivers of all time - BBC list [split]


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#1351 repcobrabham

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 21:58

was piquet really adored and idolised? i don't know, just some of the posts here strongly suggest otherwise.

GB: you're trying to spark a class war between the son of an industrialist and the son of a politician? in brazil? come on!

Edited by repcobrabham, 21 November 2012 - 21:59.


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#1352 as65p

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 22:23

Yes, it's a problem? I had the opportunity to follow the career of Piquet Sr. and Senna, especially the beginnings, and arriving at the track in a Beetle with a friend and the Formula V in a trailer and then install the engine of the street car in the racing one with no further help did look way cooler than arriving at Kart races with the best tuner (even in categories that didn't allow tuning... ) available under exclusive contract, of course only with best equipment . When now the 'legend' claims a 'middle class' upbringing, I don't know if it's worth believing... And so on... ;)


I still don't understand why you feel the need to make up stuff to justify your dislike of Senna. It's simply not necessary, just say you don't like his personality and be done with it.

Every man and his dog knows that Senna had a wealthy background (as did Piquet, for that matter). It's also documented everywhere that Senna had strived to and usually succeeded in getting the best equipment and support right from the start of his career. These are no secrets covered up by "the legend", as you try to portray it.

#1353 aditya-now

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:54

Like I have said multiple times, AS being #1 is perfectly fine with me. And it is important to understand that AS was MS's idol. And that in his own words, MS has said that AS is #1 :)

It bothers me that some fans talk utter garbage saying that MS did not respect AS because he did not show up to his funeral....


Like we discussed in the MS thread months ago - Schumacher had his reasons, and he is more emotionally vulnerable than many people would believe. I fully respect Michael's decision not to go to Morumbi/Sao Paulo for the funeral - although in the beginning it was not easy to understand. Only in the later years this incident got context.

So there we have it: also MS has said that AS is #1. Of course it would not have looked very good if he had said:"I am #1 of all times!" :D


#1354 aditya-now

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 02:01

Yes, it's a problem? I had the opportunity to follow the career of Piquet Sr. and Senna, especially the beginnings, and arriving at the track in a Beetle with a friend and the Formula V in a trailer and then install the engine of the street car in the racing one with no further help did look way cooler than arriving at Kart races with the best tuner (even in categories that didn't allow tuning... ) available under exclusive contract, of course only with best equipment . When now the 'legend' claims a 'middle class' upbringing, I don't know if it's worth believing... And so on...;)


Gaga, it's not a problem. I like Nelsinho as well, he was a much better driver than he is often attributed for. Even in my own Top 20 ranking he is only P18, and as a three time WDC he could be higher than that - I don't know what it is about him, that in the collective memory NP does not stand out as much. Classic are some of his overtakes on Ayrton, and he was an incredible student of Niki Lauda (in fact the other excellent student of Lauda was Alain Prost) and became a very complete racer.

On another topic: how can the "legend" claim that Senna had a middle class upbringing - 18 1/2 years after his death? In my memory Ayrton never did so - he was always very grateful for his privileged upbringing.

I happen to like Nelson Piquet Sr. a LOT too and he indeed had personality. Loads of personality. Tons of personality. Think of a mixture between the devil-may-care attitude of Raikkonnen with the charisma of James Hunt, plus the urge for doing practical jokes of Gerhard Bergher. All while being a naughty playboy. Plus he was adored and idolized by his mechanics and team(s).


:up:

Very good characterization of Nelsinho - Raikkonen/Hunt/Berger is definitely very well taken. I was often cracking with the practical jokes of Piquet.

Edited by aditya-now, 22 November 2012 - 02:04.


#1355 Craven Morehead

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 02:36

I happen to like Nelson Piquet Sr. a LOT too and he indeed had personality. Loads of personality. Tons of personality. Think of a mixture between the devil-may-care attitude of Raikkonnen with the charisma of James Hunt, plus the urge for doing practical jokes of Gerhard Bergher. All while being a naughty playboy. Plus he was adored and idolized by his mechanics and team(s).


Nice description. :up: He was all those things. NP was a character, he sure enjoyed winding Nigel up didn't he?

#1356 Gag Bueno

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:14

I still don't understand why you feel the need to make up stuff to justify your dislike of Senna. It's simply not necessary, just say you don't like his personality and be done with it.

Every man and his dog knows that Senna had a wealthy background (as did Piquet, for that matter). It's also documented everywhere that Senna had strived to and usually succeeded in getting the best equipment and support right from the start of his career. These are no secrets covered up by "the legend", as you try to portray it.


Legends have often the issue that they vary a little bit, depending on when or where they are told. So, after being 'asked' and having exposed one of the reasons for having more sympathy for Piquet Sr. then for Senna ( for instance I was comparing rather the amount of familiar support for the respective career starts, not the wealth of the families, what would be plain stupid and irrelevant here... ) I couldn't resist to have a dig at the makers of 'Racing is in my blood' who speak about a 'reasonably wealthy Brazilian middle class family' and are often quoted by people ( yes, they do exist... ) trying to sell the myth of 'Senna, the self-made man'. Maybe all these people should have more educated dogs and that's it.

As for the nit-picking demand of exact quotes (in English) for complaints I have mentioned, I have only to say that, even in such a short life, people speak also off-record or with not so acknowledged or specialized international journalists, and if one of the most respected of these journalists confirms my 'made-up-stuff', it's fine with me and no reason for start searching in old magazines.

Edited by Gag Bueno, 22 November 2012 - 18:54.


#1357 sportingcp

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 13:09

I honestly thought that there was nobody who disliked Senna in Brazil. It´s weird to see a brazilian who dislikes Ayrton and has a nick/avatar of Galvão Bueno :lol: :up:.

#1358 Kyo

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 18:27

Compiled some stats for the BBC top 5.

% of wins.
% of poles.

Battle against teammates when both finished the races. (race pace)
Battle against teammates in qualifying. (one lap speed)

% of retirements when the driver was involved in accidents. Car failures are not included. (Capability to stay out of trouble and not make mistakes)

Fangio
47% of wins
57% of poles

Finished ahead 91% of the time
Qualified ahead 86% of the time

0% of retirements

Clark
35% of wins
40% of poles

Finished ahead 76% of the time
Qualified ahead 73% of the time

3% of retirements

Prost
26% of wins
16% of poles

Finished ahead 61% of the time (against -- 26% Senna -- 12% Lauda -- 12% Johansson -- 12% Hill -- 9% Mansell -- 8% Cheever -- 8% Arnoux -- 13% Others)
Qualified ahead 67% of the time

10% of retirements

Senna
26% of wins
40% of poles

Finished ahead 84% of the time (against -- 32% Prost -- 31% Berger -- 11% Nakajima -- 10% de Angelis -- 16% Others)
Qualified ahead 89% of the time

12% of retirements

Schumacher
30% of wins
22% of poles

Finished ahead 75% of the time (against -- 40% Barrichello -- 20% Rosberg -- 16% Irvine -- 8% Massa -- 16% Others)
Qualified ahead 75% of the time

10% of retirements

#1359 ensign14

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 19:26

Fangio

0% of retirements

Nope. Belgium 1953, took over Johnny Claes' car and dumped it on the last lap when 3rd. Cost Claes his only WC points.

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#1360 Kyo

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 19:53

Nope. Belgium 1953, took over Johnny Claes' car and dumped it on the last lap when 3rd. Cost Claes his only WC points.

Thats right. I didn't notice since he shared the drive and his original car had an engine failure. Thats put Fangio with 2%.

#1361 LiJu914

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 19:59

Compiled some stats for the BBC top 5.
[...]


Interesting to see the statistical impact of MSC´s comeback.
Rosberg lowered Schumacher´s overall ratios vs. teammates by 10 percentage points - both in quali and joint race finishes.

Way to go, Nico.  ;)

#1362 Kyo

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 20:15

Interesting to see the statistical impact of MSC´s comeback.
Rosberg lowered Schumacher´s overall ratios vs. teammates by 10 percentage points - both in quali and joint race finishes.

Way to go, Nico. ;)

If not for his comeback against Rosberg, Schumacher would have 83% for races and 85% in quali.

#1363 as65p

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 20:26

Legends have often the issue that they vary a little bit, depending on when or where they are told. So, after being 'asked' and having exposed one of the reasons for having more sympathy for Piquet Sr. then for Senna ( for instance I was comparing rather the amount of familiar support for the respective career starts, not the wealth of the families, what would be plain stupid and irrelevant here... ) I couldn't resist to have a dig at the makers of 'Racing is in my blood' who speak about a 'reasonably wealthy Brazilian middle class family' and are often quoted by people ( yes, they do exist... ) trying to sell the myth of 'Senna, the self-made man'. Maybe all these people should have more educated dogs and that's it.

As for the nit-picking demand of exact quotes (in English) for complaints I have mentioned, I have only to say that, even in such a short life, people speak also off-record or with not so acknowledged or specialized international journalists, and if one of the most respected of these journalists confirms my 'made-up-stuff', it's fine with me and no reason for start searching in old magazines.


More of the same unspecific mutterings, I see. :yawnface:

So not every word and every story told about Senna is 100 percent true? There are varying accounts from various people? Wow, shock-horror! Senna must be the only celebrity for which that is the case. Surely every flattering story told about Piquet is absolutely true in contrast, right?

And again those issues with unnamed brazilian journalists, first with those worshipping Senna, now with a similar nameless kind allegedly agreeing with your views. Tell me why should anyone who never heard or read anything from those nameless people care?

As far as the majority of the world population is concerned, they will get their info about Senna from prominent and renowned places, like the official F1 website, for example:

"...born [] into a wealthy Brazilian family where [] he enjoyed a privileged upbringing."

or Wikipedia:

"The middle child of wealthy Brazilian landowner and factory owner Milton da Silva and his wife Neide Senna da Silva..."

If that kind of info is available in prominent places, why would anyone get out of his way to look for dubious sources being a bit off regarding the privileged position into which Senna was born? And what does it matter anyway regarding Senna the racing driver if a percentage of accounts of his life isn't 100 percent correct? Again, that would be perfectly normal for every other famous person around the world, wouldn't it?

I gather you're quite reluctant to put names and verifiyble quotes to your dark mutterings. That's your right of course, and I suspect you have very sound, if unflattering, reasons for that.

#1364 spacekid

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 22:32

Surely every flattering story told about Piquet is absolutely true in contrast, right?


There are flattering stories about Piquet? I've genuinely never heard one ;)

#1365 Gag Bueno

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 00:48

I honestly thought that there was nobody who disliked Senna in Brazil. It´s weird to see a brazilian who dislikes Ayrton and has a nick/avatar of Galvão Bueno :lol: :up:.


So you got the joke :rotfl: And yes, it's not only me, Brazil is big enough to accommodate a couple of 'dissidents'... Actually I respect Senna for his ultimate speed and rate him high as a driver, but have issues with some of his racing and off-track antics or principally certain people claiming he could walk over water. And so came my tribute to the ultimate bias ( even Lobato could learn a thing or two... ) and consummate ignorance of GB. I tried to find the most 'trollface-like' smile for the avatar, that he seems to use a lot when spreading misinformation. And friends he had (and has), I can tell you ...


And now, unfortunately:


More of the same unspecific mutterings, I see. :yawnface:

So not every word and every story told about Senna is 100 percent true? There are varying accounts from various people? Wow, shock-horror! Senna must be the only celebrity for which that is the case. Surely every flattering story told about Piquet is absolutely true in contrast, right?

And again those issues with unnamed brazilian journalists, first with those worshipping Senna, now with a similar nameless kind allegedly agreeing with your views. Tell me why should anyone who never heard or read anything from those nameless people care?

As far as the majority of the world population is concerned, they will get their info about Senna from prominent and renowned places, like the official F1 website, for example:

"...born [] into a wealthy Brazilian family where [] he enjoyed a privileged upbringing."

or Wikipedia:

"The middle child of wealthy Brazilian landowner and factory owner Milton da Silva and his wife Neide Senna da Silva..."

If that kind of info is available in prominent places, why would anyone get out of his way to look for dubious sources being a bit off regarding the privileged position into which Senna was born? And what does it matter anyway regarding Senna the racing driver if a percentage of accounts of his life isn't 100 percent correct? Again, that would be perfectly normal for every other famous person around the world, wouldn't it?

I gather you're quite reluctant to put names and verifiyble quotes to your dark mutterings. That's your right of course, and I suspect you have very sound, if unflattering, reasons for that.


First of all, I would like to remind you that we are only guests in this forum, maybe people are not interested at all in our more private 'discussion' here. But some things are difficult to tolerate. I have referred to a book ( 'Ayrton Senna, the revealed hero', still don't know if available in English ) which is carefully researched and approved by Senna's family and friends (at least their interviews and comments are featured) and imo a must-read for any Senna fan in Brazil (a good read BTW, bias or not... ) and also posted links to an article by David Tremayne or to a documentary made in the early 90ties, with the blessing of ... St. Ayrton himself. This are 'obscure sources' according to you, but Uncle Bernie's Politically Correct Page (!!!) or Wikipedia ( :stoned: ) are the 'fountain of truth'... Actually I would like to ask if you're joking or really wanted to disqualify yourself this way...

Maybe I should stop here, but I must ( again... ) quote ensign14. Having a discussion with him in this very thread about (wonder of wonders!) a flattering story about Piquet Sr. I wasn't aware of, somebody else asked if a video of the incident was available. The answer was:

I don't know, although there's no video of the Battle of Hastings and people seem to think it happened.


So true... And gave me a good opportunity to do some research and shut up... maybe I could recommend it ...


#1366 as65p

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 01:51

First of all, I would like to remind you that we are only guests in this forum, maybe people are not interested at all in our more private 'discussion' here.


It's not a private discussion as far as I'm concerned. I simply react to the things you post about a topic I'm interested in, mainly by asking you to specify and substantiate you claims. Unfortunately you continue to run away from that.

But some things are difficult to tolerate. I have referred to a book ( 'Ayrton Senna, the revealed hero', still don't know if available in English ) which is carefully researched and approved by Senna's family and friends (at least their interviews and comments are featured) and imo a must-read for any Senna fan in Brazil (a good read BTW, bias or not... )


There is more than one book about Senna. You seem to have issues with a specific one, maybe it's crap, maybe it's not, I have no way to tell. But why should those issues be relevant to me?

...and also posted links to an article by David Tremayne


We've been trough this already. You claimed that Senna himself stated something which later turned out has been a statement of Tremayne instead.

or to a documentary made in the early 90ties, with the blessing of ... St. Ayrton himself. This are 'obscure sources' according to you, but Uncle Bernie's Politically Correct Page (!!!) or Wikipedia ( :stoned: ) are the 'fountain of truth'... Actually I would like to ask if you're joking or really wanted to disqualify yourself this way...


Oh, I love disqualifying myself by providing verifiable quotes and sources instead of unspecific ramblings, which seems to be your domain. Quite funny how first you complain about one handpicked source not quite meeting your demands in describing the wealth of Sennas family, yet when I give you two popular sources who do that, you now try to discredit those sources.

Maybe I should stop here, but I must ( again... ) quote ensign14. Having a discussion with him in this very thread about (wonder of wonders!) a flattering story about Piquet Sr. I wasn't aware of, somebody else asked if a video of the incident was available. The answer was:

So true... And gave me a good opportunity to do some research and shut up... maybe I could recommend it ...


Well, what worked once... may indeed be recommendable again. Or you could just carry on your unspecific and nebolous ways, it's your choice alone. Just don't be surprised if I may interfere from time to time with a pesky request to substantiate your ramblings. Unfortunately here on a public board you're not in such a privileged position like that guy in your avatar, able to spout any old crap without anyone objecting.

Edited by as65p, 23 November 2012 - 01:56.


#1367 Wander

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 08:14

I've had some looks at other lists. By comparison, the BBC list really is hardly controversial at all. For controversial opinions, take a look at something like this (from 2008):
http://www.telegraph...00-drivers.html

I'd love to read his book to see his reasoning for some of those.

Edited by Wander, 23 November 2012 - 08:16.


#1368 ali_M

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 10:50

I've had some looks at other lists. By comparison, the BBC list really is hardly controversial at all. For controversial opinions, take a look at something like this (from 2008):
http://www.telegraph...00-drivers.html

I'd love to read his book to see his reasoning for some of those.


I'd not....

:smoking:

#1369 ensign14

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:12

I'd certainly like Mr Henry to explain where, when and how Bernd Rosemeyer drove a Formula 1 car.

And if he is going to include pre-war Grands Prix, to put Caracciola at 33 - next to Didier Pironi, for Christ's sake - suggests he needs to see a doctor.

#1370 aditya-now

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:17

That's a good one! Care to elaborate what exactly makes FA better than AP and MSC in your personal list?


Bob McMurray's article just makes an eloquent statement on that matter. Many of you are perhaps not registering, that we are witnessing one of the greatest of all times driving right now, and that driver is Fernando Alonso.

Bob McMurray has worked since the early 1970s with McLaren and has been in the team during the Emerson Fittipaldi/James Hunt/Niki Lauda/Alain Prost/Ayrton Senna and Mika Hakkinen days. Not a bad list of champions to compare Fernando Alonso with.

#1371 aditya-now

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:50

I'd certainly like Mr Henry to explain where, when and how Bernd Rosemeyer drove a Formula 1 car.

And if he is going to include pre-war Grands Prix, to put Caracciola at 33 - next to Didier Pironi, for Christ's sake - suggests he needs to see a doctor.


As objectionable as Mr.Henry's list seems to be to some, and as surprising some of his placings are, it is not totally out of this world to include pre-war Grand Prix drivers like Nuvolari, Varzi, Rosemeyer and Carrciola in his Top 40. Those drivers were exactly what F1 drivers are nowadays, although the official term "F1" is missing. That does not make them anything less, once the term "of all time" is used, and that is exactly what Alan Henry thought to do.

I do not concur with his hero worship of Stirling Moss (at least I would not have placed him at P1), and I do not think that having Didier Pironi at P34 is so out of place - it was an unfortunate accident that separated Didier from the 1982 WDC title and possibly the 1983 WDC would have followed.

But these lists are all what they are: opinions that are personal, and thus not verifiable. Any counter-argument is as good as any pro-argument. This is why the "popularity contests" like the ones mentioned before in this thread carry possibly the most significance - the majority of fans, F1 drivers or even the BBC team cannot err as much as any list put forward by a single individual (like Alan Henry or myself) can.

The only fact I find deplorable is that great drivers of tradition like Nuvolari, Varzi, Rosemeyer and Carrciola are excluded from most lists, simply because they are missing the F1 tag.

#1372 ensign14

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:51

I saw it somewhere recently - Roebuck? - that some high-ups in Ferrari have expressed the view that Alonso is better than Schumacher...

#1373 schubacca

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 14:28

I saw it somewhere recently - Roebuck? - that some high-ups in Ferrari have expressed the view that Alonso is better than Schumacher...


And what have those high-ups at Ferrari won since MS left them? Those high-ups need to make sure that their wind tunnel is working like when MS-Todt-Brawn-Bryne were working there! :p

But hey some feel that KR is better than Hakinnen....

#1374 ensign14

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 14:38

That might be more a reflection of not having Brawn/Byrne et al on board, or that Schumacher drove in a particularly arid period for driving talent (Coulthard as the second-best F1 driver?).

#1375 aditya-now

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 14:39

And what have those high-ups at Ferrari won since MS left them? Those high-ups need to make sure that their wind tunnel is working like when MS-Todt-Brawn-Bryne were working there! :p

But hey some feel that KR is better than Hakinnen....


Kimi and Mika is definitely an interesting comparison, and Kimi's two lost championships (2003 and 2005) indicate that he has/had a triple WDC crown in him, like Mika did if his steam hadn't run out. Both of them lost opportunities sadly.


#1376 aditya-now

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 14:40

That might be more a reflection of not having Brawn/Byrne et al on board, or that Schumacher drove in a particularly arid period for driving talent (Coulthard as the second-best F1 driver?).


Agreed - DC wouldn't have been #2 on this years grid, even if he were in his prime.

#1377 schubacca

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 14:47

Kimi and Mika is definitely an interesting comparison, and Kimi's two lost championships (2003 and 2005) indicate that he has/had a triple WDC crown in him, like Mika did if his steam hadn't run out. Both of them lost opportunities sadly.


I think that Mika is highly under-rated and does not get the respect especially when compared to the Iceman.... That is just me though.

#1378 schubacca

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 14:48

That might be more a reflection of not having Brawn/Byrne et al on board, or that Schumacher drove in a particularly arid period for driving talent (Coulthard as the second-best F1 driver?).


Perhaps,

But you cannot forget the first 4 years of MSC at Ferrari.

He did amazing feats with those cars.

#1379 Wander

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 15:37

like Mika did if his steam hadn't run out.


It is interesting that Mika did indeed say in a recent interview that after 99 he was so spent, he supposedly said to Coulthard that "next year, it's your turn, I cannot do this anymore."

I personally think that Kimi is very close to Mika in career achievements. After this season, he has now equalled the number of complete F1 seasons with Mika, so you can do pretty valid comparison:

Starts:
Mika 161
Kimi 175

Wins:
Mika 20 (12%)
Kimi 19 (11%)

Podiums:
Mika 51 (32%)
Kimi 69 (39%)

Poles:
Mika 26 (16%)
Kimi 16 (9%)

For bonus, top 6 placings:

Mika 83 (52%)
Kimi 101 (58%)

Fastest laps:
Mika 25 (16%)
Kimi 37 (21%)

Championships:
Mika 2 (20%) + 1 time runner-up
Kimi 1 (10%) + 2 times runner-up

I think it's pretty clear to see that statistically the two are very close. They've even spent comparable amounts in bad, decent and great cars. Saying that Kimi might be better is imo. a perfectly valid argument. Both great drivers nevertheless, and I always find it difficult to decide who was the best Finnish F1 driver anyway between Keke, Mika and Kimi.

Edited by Wander, 23 November 2012 - 15:47.


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#1380 ali_M

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 18:32

Agreed - DC wouldn't have been #2 on this years grid, even if he were in his prime.


He wasn't number 2 on the grid in those times either. Not by a margin. He must have been considered number two because he was driving a dominant McLaren or Williams at points in his career and racking up some points? Like Webber for instance? Just because Webber was leading the points tally for much of 2010 and at one point this year doesn't make him the number 2 driver in the minds of most now.



#1381 ali_M

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 18:33

I think that Mika is highly under-rated and does not get the respect especially when compared to the Iceman.... That is just me though.


I agree. :) He had a serious run of form in his successful years.

#1382 DutchCruijff

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 20:49

Bob McMurray's article just makes an eloquent statement on that matter. Many of you are perhaps not registering, that we are witnessing one of the greatest of all times driving right now, and that driver is Fernando Alonso.

Bob McMurray has worked since the early 1970s with McLaren and has been in the team during the Emerson Fittipaldi/James Hunt/Niki Lauda/Alain Prost/Ayrton Senna and Mika Hakkinen days. Not a bad list of champions to compare Fernando Alonso with.

It's true that we are witnessing one of the greatest of all times, and dare I say it, if by the end of his career he has added 2 more titles then I'd say he could replace MSC as the greatest of all time. Regardless of how all drivers will say Senna is the greatest of all time, each and everyone knows that it is Schumacher who is the true benchmark, the complete one. And it's precisely why the 3 best drivers in the field absolutely admire him. Vettel adores him whilst LH & Alonso are trying to emulate Schumacher's feat in '00 with both Ferrari & Mercedes.

In my opinion?

1) Schumacher
2) Fangio
3) Prost
4) Alonso
5) Senna

Oh and I can see why quoting a Mr."Bob McMurray", peculiar name to say the least, satisifies your thirst.

"I must admit, and this may surprise some people, I don’t have much time for Michael Schumacher. Never did. I do think that it does our sport no favours to have a multiple world champion, a flag bearer for the sport, a driver with huge skill and determination and someone that could have been an ambassador in retirement to act like a complete dork on the track."

Never heard of the man, chats sh*t and, as with all Senna lovers, ignorant to Senna's equivalent "racing".

Want to quote someone? Murray Walker would be someone to quote, never ever has the man produced a piece even bordering on partiality. Who does he rate as number one?  ;)

#1383 Wander

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 20:52

And who does Schumacher himself rate as number one? ;)

#1384 1Devil1

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 21:01

And who does Schumacher himself rate as number one?;)


Yeah and Michael Jordan would rate himself as number one basketball player of all time, I guess :drunk:

#1385 Wander

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 21:55

Yeah and Michael Jordan would rate himself as number one basketball player of all time, I guess :drunk:

Maybe he wouldn't if he isn't.

I wonder if Federer would rate himself as the greatest tennis player of all time. I reckon he really has every reason to do so.

#1386 1Devil1

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 22:03

Maybe he wouldn't if he isn't.

I wonder if Federer would rate himself as the greatest tennis player of all time. I reckon he really has every reason to do so.


You will find a large group of people who don't put Federer at the front spot because his negative record against Nadal. He is such a gentleman player I can't see him say "I was the best of all time" Michael Jordan wouldn't do that like Schumacher wouldn't say that. The only athlete I can imagine is ALI who has the guts to call himself the best of all time no other would break that unwritten law. So I don't give a lot about it when Schumacher said he thinks Senna was the best because like every other athlete he ruled himself out

#1387 SCUDmissile

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 22:32

I read that book by Alan Henry.

He used 'niceness' and 'gentlemanness' as factors. Of all sports, but that's why Ayrton and Michael were lower down than normal.

For what it's worth, hers my top 10 as I can't think of any more. (Only WDC drivers)

1. Schumacher
2. Fangio
3. Senna
4. Prost
5. Clark
6. Stewart
7. Lauda
8. Alonso
9. Brabham
10. Graham Hill

#1388 aditya-now

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:55

In my opinion?

1) Schumacher
2) Fangio
3) Prost
4) Alonso
5) Senna

Oh and I can see why quoting a Mr."Bob McMurray", peculiar name to say the least, satisifies your thirst.

"I must admit, and this may surprise some people, I don’t have much time for Michael Schumacher. Never did. I do think that it does our sport no favours to have a multiple world champion, a flag bearer for the sport, a driver with huge skill and determination and someone that could have been an ambassador in retirement to act like a complete dork on the track."

Never heard of the man, chats sh*t and, as with all Senna lovers, ignorant to Senna's equivalent "racing".

Want to quote someone? Murray Walker would be someone to quote, never ever has the man produced a piece even bordering on partiality. Who does he rate as number one? ;)


Who does Murray rate as #1? And who does Murray's #1 rate as #1? :p

Interesting Top 5 you have, but quite valid. To me Fernando Alonso has broken into the Top 5 this year, even if I cannot place him yet so high personally as I have trouble placing active drivers in that most exclusive five drivers circle.

Bob McMurray is a New Zealander and probably "Robert" McMurray, I do not understand what you find so peculiar, well, you are a Londoner with a Dutch name  ;) and McMurray is a Kiwi with a Scottish name - so what. I am an Austrian with a Czech name.

I did overread his part about Michael Schumacher but thank you very much for alerting me to it, his characterization of MSC gave me much to laugh now. Yes indeed.

#1389 SparkPlug

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:48

And who does Schumacher himself rate as number one?;)



Who does Murray rate as #1? And who does Murray's #1 rate as #1? :p

I dont think such an argument is valid. Deep down inside, every racing driver with even a race win probably believes that he is the best out there, but such things are rarely, if ever, told to the public or the media, as it is seen as a sign of ultimate arrogance.


#1390 Jimisgod

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:18

Maybe he wouldn't if he isn't.

I wonder if Federer would rate himself as the greatest tennis player of all time. I reckon he really has every reason to do so.


Rod Laver probably, given his tearfulness when Laver gave him a trophy years ago.

#1391 George Costanza

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:37

Kimi had far better cars than Mika did in whole career. (2002, 2004 and 2006 were seasons were Kimi's car was not exactly the best compared to Ferrari (Renault and Ferrari in 2006). Mika? (93 to 97, he couldn't even come close to Williams in those seasons)

If Mika had those cars for his entire career, (not just 1998-2000 seasons) he would have beaten Michael Schumacher and we would have seen a big duel for a long period of the 1990s.

I'd rate Mika better for now. Niow, the faster driver? that's a heck of debate, I'd argue Mika.


Edited by George Costanza, 24 November 2012 - 05:51.


#1392 George Costanza

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:38

And who does Schumacher himself rate as number one?;)


Ayrton Senna.... He has said this himself, but, of course, you can't really make judgments on that.

#1393 grunge

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 06:30

A few interesting points brought up on the last couple of pages.

Schumacher


No i dont think its rational by any stretch of the imagination to compare his two eras...he was on a different level back..pure and simple ...and since we are talking about 3rd party opinions,might i suggest to some here,,Go and read the top drivers ever list that Autosport did last(or was it a couple of years back?) year.Everyone in the judging panel was a relevant selection and there were numerous past drivers in it too..Guess who their No.1 Choice was?

Though something that i personally will always feel is that he had never raced with a competitive team mate..the only time it was forced upon him at the end of 06,he went into retirement...The same can be said about Alonso who only faced someone competitive in 07 and then left apparently cuz he wasnt given an Automatic No.1 Driver treatment

You cant say the same about Hamilton(and not Vettel as yet for that matter)..He seems willing to take on anyone.

Senna.

Lets just say he was one of the best ever...No,not the best IMO

Prost

Underrated again..His aversion to putting his and others life at risk in dripping wet conditions is somehow taken as an inability to drive in the wet per se..Prost could match anyone in the wet when he did race.

Mika and Kimi

One doesnt have to bash KR in order to big up Hakkinen...the latter is surely underrated as he was the one competitor that had Michael's respect in those days..infact if we are talking about Raw pace,id put him slightly ahead of MS...the latter had much better race craft/rain skill though.

KR is a completely different story..Still an enigma for someone like me whos followed him throughout his career..His talent is massive(ask Whitmarsh who said he is probably the greatest talent ever) but then he doesnt have his focus solely on F1 as some of past greats MS,Senna,Prost have had...

So potential wise id put KR ahead of Mika..

My list would be

1.Clark
2.Fangio
3.Prost
4.Schumacher
5.Senna

Alonso and Hamilton have all the makings of an all time top 5 great but ill wait for another 5,7 years to see if they can replicate their performances..

I havent considered people like Caracciola,Rosemeyer or Nuvolari cause ive been able to read precious little stuff on them..i know what they raced and achieved but whats lacking is a 3rd party commentary from that time about how superior they were to the rest of the field.

Which lead to my reason behind putting Clark at NO.1...what i think most important,is the opinion of fellow drivers of the era on how good one was compared to the rest of the field.and the compliments Clark received are unmatched..his rivals on track knew he was in a completely different league.

Edited by grunge, 24 November 2012 - 06:32.


#1394 LiJu914

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:56

A few interesting points brought up on the last couple of pages.

Schumacher


No i dont think its rational by any stretch of the imagination to compare his two eras...he was on a different level back..pure and simple ..and since we are talking about 3rd party opinions,might i suggest to some here,,Go and read the top drivers ever list that Autosport did last(or was it a couple of years back?) year.Everyone in the judging panel was a relevant selection and there were numerous past drivers in it too..Guess who their No.1 Choice was?


Uhm, Senna followed by MSC.


#1395 DutchCruijff

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:18

Who does Murray rate as #1? And who does Murray's #1 rate as #1? :p

Interesting Top 5 you have, but quite valid. To me Fernando Alonso has broken into the Top 5 this year, even if I cannot place him yet so high personally as I have trouble placing active drivers in that most exclusive five drivers circle.

Bob McMurray is a New Zealander and probably "Robert" McMurray, I do not understand what you find so peculiar, well, you are a Londoner with a Dutch name ;) and McMurray is a Kiwi with a Scottish name - so what. I am an Austrian with a Czech name.

I did overread his part about Michael Schumacher but thank you very much for alerting me to it, his characterization of MSC gave me much to laugh now. Yes indeed.

Who did Senna rate as #1? Because he most definitely wouldn't say he was the greatest of all time.

McMurray, Murray is in itself a Scottish surname. The "Mc" making sound twice as Scottish for good measure. And I have Dutch heritage :)

#1396 aditya-now

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:17

Who did Senna rate as #1? Because he most definitely wouldn't say he was the greatest of all time.

McMurray, Murray is in itself a Scottish surname. The "Mc" making sound twice as Scottish for good measure. And I have Dutch heritage :)


I think Ayrton always rated Juan Manuel Fangio as #2 after himself, and he was very touched when he met Fangio and pleased how much Fangio respected his driving. :D

Concerning names when they go to another country: my surname has a v in the middle in the original Czech language and that got changed to a w when in Austria. Many names that go from German to America get a different spelling to resemble phonetically the original. So it could very well be that a Scottish immigrant to New Zealand named Murray chose to put "Mc" before his name to underline he was of Scottish descent.

Be that as it may, Bob McMurray has seen a lot of motorsport history in his 30+ years of working for McLaren International (from 1971 - 2002) and his perspective is surely more educated than the perspective most posters on the BB have.

#1397 Kyo

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:30

Who did Senna rate as #1? Because he most definitely wouldn't say he was the greatest of all time.

McMurray, Murray is in itself a Scottish surname. The "Mc" making sound twice as Scottish for good measure. And I have Dutch heritage :)

Fangio

Just like Schumacher, Hamilton and Alonso rate Senna #1 too.

#1398 DutchCruijff

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:41

I think Ayrton always rated Juan Manuel Fangio as #2 after himself, and he was very touched when he met Fangio and pleased how much Fangio respected his driving. :D

Ayrton was a devout Catholic, vanity wasn't a part of his dictionary.

Kyo's right, he most likely rated Fangio as No.1. So there you have it.

#1399 ensign14

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 13:35

Ayrton was a devout Catholic, vanity wasn't a part of his dictionary.

"But I am Senna."

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#1400 DutchCruijff

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 13:43

"But I am Senna."

And that was in response to his battle with Prost. Glad to be proven wrong, just when I thought the guy couldn't get scummier.