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Top 20 Greatest F1 Drivers of all time - BBC list [split]


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#1401 ensign14

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 14:28

I think that's putting it too harshly. He was two people. Away from racing, he was one of the more thoughtful, caring, decent men who have ever raced in Formula 1. Even in it, when it did not directly concern him, he was an asset to the sport. But any move within motor racing that would suggest he was not the greatest would be seen as an affront to the natural order.

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#1402 aditya-now

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 14:44

Ayrton was a devout Catholic, vanity wasn't a part of his dictionary.

Kyo's right, he most likely rated Fangio as No.1. So there you have it.


You obviously did not spot the irony in my post - Ensign14 did so very well.

Of course Senna said Fangio was the best, "but I am Senna" was in his subconsciousness. This does not mean that Senna is or was "scummy", every driver has a healthy dose of self respect, even Schumacher. But he was Senna. :D

#1403 DutchCruijff

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 14:53

You obviously did not spot the irony in my post - Ensign14 did so very well.

Of course Senna said Fangio was the best, "but I am Senna" was in his subconsciousness. This does not mean that Senna is or was "scummy", every driver has a healthy dose of self respect, even Schumacher. But he was Senna. :D

Do I need the enigma machine to decipher the meaning behind this post?

It does mean Senna is scummy when it was in response to him justifying ramming Prost off the circuit. The true mark of how scummy a man is is by how he carries himself amongst those perceived to be "below" him and by the bad he does. It is most definitely not defined by the good one does because good deeds can be carried out with the worst of intentions.

Either way, smashing Irvine's head in, ramming competitors off in an era of still questionable safety, making Schumacher cry, throwing tantrums and responding to why he rammed off Alain with the words "Because I am Senna", just goes to show how much of an utter tw*t he was.

Edited by DutchCruijff, 24 November 2012 - 14:54.


#1404 DutchCruijff

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 14:56

I think that's putting it too harshly. He was two people. Away from racing, he was one of the more thoughtful, caring, decent men who have ever raced in Formula 1. Even in it, when it did not directly concern him, he was an asset to the sport. But any move within motor racing that would suggest he was not the greatest would be seen as an affront to the natural order.

Yep, punching Irvine and making Schumacher cry? Yep, yep, incredibly thoughtful.

All this "Oh I had an outer body experience in Monaco" and "Oh, I'll get out of my car to save my fellow drivers" soppy bollocks doesn't hold water when he's putting the lives of others at risk + expecting him to be treated like the messiah.

#1405 as65p

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 15:02

And that was in response to his battle with Prost. Glad to be proven wrong, just when I thought the guy couldn't get scummier.


No. He said that during a conversation about Damon Hill weaving in front of him in Imola '93. It was pointed out to him that he might have done the same on other ocassions, and "but I'm Senna" was his response to that. Nothing at all to do with Prost.

I always liked how that anecdote in the shortest way possible sorts the fans from the people who can't stand him. :)

#1406 George Costanza

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 15:04

Yep, punching Irvine and making Schumacher cry? Yep, yep, incredibly thoughtful.

All this "Oh I had an outer body experience in Monaco" and "Oh, I'll get out of my car to save my fellow drivers" soppy bollocks doesn't hold water when he's putting the lives of others at risk + expecting him to be treated like the messiah.





He made Schumacher cry? When didn that happen? Which season?

#1407 as65p

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 15:08

He made Schumacher cry? When didn that happen? Which season?


Must have been around the time he "smashed Irvines head in".  ;)

Oh Dutchy, why did you edit out that gem from your post? :( :drunk:

#1408 aditya-now

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 15:08

He made Schumacher cry? When didn that happen? Which season?


At the PC after Monza 2000, when Schumacher equalled the number of wins that Senna had.

Edited by aditya-now, 24 November 2012 - 15:10.


#1409 aditya-now

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 15:09

Must have been around the time he "smashed Irvines head in". ;)

Oh Dutchy, why did you edit out that gem from your post? :( :drunk:


DutchCruijff got a little agitated over the matter, it seems... :lol:


#1410 DutchCruijff

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 15:10

No. He said that during a conversation about Damon Hill weaving in front of him in Imola '93. It was pointed out to him that he might have done the same on other ocassions, and "but I'm Senna" was his response to that. Nothing at all to do with Prost.

I always liked how that anecdote in the shortest way possible sorts the fans from the people who can't stand him. :)

And that makes him less scummier? My point is that he believed himself to expect certain privileges, he was allowed to behave in a certain way because he was who he was. Thanks for clearing that up but the point still stands.

#1411 DutchCruijff

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 15:12

He made Schumacher cry? When didn that happen? Which season?

Posted Image



Biting of the lip. Tears.

#1412 aditya-now

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 15:13

And that makes him less scummier? My point is that he believed himself to expect certain privileges, he was allowed to behave in a certain way because he was who he was. Thanks for clearing that up but the point still stands.


Okay, DutchCruijff, after you have cleared up that point and made it be known that in your opinion Senna is "scummy", would you please be so kind to return to topic and let us know your Top 20? That's a least what MightyMoose asked us to provide after the BBC completed their Top 20 countdown.

#1413 DutchCruijff

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 15:14

Must have been around the time he "smashed Irvines head in". ;)

Oh Dutchy, why did you edit out that gem from your post? :( :drunk:

:rotfl:

Regardless, punching Irvine was poor, poor form from such an experienced driver.

#1414 ensign14

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 16:08

Yep, punching Irvine and making Schumacher cry? Yep, yep, incredibly thoughtful.

The Irvine thing was following an on-lap incident. When Edmundo had the temerity to dare to overtake His Sennaness.

#1415 as65p

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 16:24

And that makes him less scummier? My point is that he believed himself to expect certain privileges, he was allowed to behave in a certain way because he was who he was. Thanks for clearing that up but the point still stands.


It just makes you having your facts wrong.

#1416 as65p

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 16:29

The Irvine thing was following an on-lap incident. When Edmundo had the temerity to dare to overtake His Sennaness.


If Senna at any time in his career had messed around on track like Irvine that day, interfering with the race leader when a lap behind, you'd still talk about it to this day. :p

Punching is never the right thing to do, but then again with Irvine it could hardly have happened to a better person.

#1417 ensign14

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 18:20

I thought the whole thing was hilarious. It made no difference to the race result anyway. When Senna went into the motorhome post-race, he didn't actually recognize Irvine...

#1418 Wander

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 18:25

Eddie had it coming.

#1419 hogstar

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 21:27

I would say that Senna was probably the fastest driver, but the greatest? His on track antics makes the latter a non starter - His 'win at all costs' attitude to Formula One didn't sit well with me and many others and should of been thrown out of F1 after deliberately driving Prost out at high speed (but our loss may of been CART's gain so it never happened). Would he of been voted top of the pile if he'd of killed Prost? Thought not.

I see him as the Formula One equivalent of John Lennon. Reappraised after his death to become almost a critical free zone. People forget Senna made mistakes. Lots of mistakes. You can be quick and balanced, but in his F1 years on track I never saw that. You could argue that's why Senna is no longer with us and for example, why JYS is. Now there is a great - in every sense.

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#1420 Kyo

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 21:58

I would say that Senna was probably the fastest driver, but the greatest? His on track antics makes the latter a non starter - His 'win at all costs' attitude to Formula One didn't sit well with me and many others and should of been thrown out of F1 after deliberately driving Prost out at high speed (but our loss may of been CART's gain so it never happened). Would he of been voted top of the pile if he'd of killed Prost? Thought not.

I see him as the Formula One equivalent of John Lennon. Reappraised after his death to become almost a critical free zone. People forget Senna made mistakes. Lots of mistakes. You can be quick and balanced, but in his F1 years on track I never saw that. You could argue that's why Senna is no longer with us and for example, why JYS is. Now there is a great - in every sense.

:stoned:

#1421 Wander

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 22:28

You could not argue such a thing. Holy shit.

How did Senna make "lots of mistakes"? Compared to whom?

Edited by Wander, 24 November 2012 - 22:29.


#1422 BoschKurve

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 00:03

http://www.f1rogues....enna-vs-irvine/

#1423 BoschKurve

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 00:12

I would say that Senna was probably the fastest driver, but the greatest? His on track antics makes the latter a non starter - His 'win at all costs' attitude to Formula One didn't sit well with me and many others and should of been thrown out of F1 after deliberately driving Prost out at high speed (but our loss may of been CART's gain so it never happened). Would he of been voted top of the pile if he'd of killed Prost? Thought not.

I see him as the Formula One equivalent of John Lennon. Reappraised after his death to become almost a critical free zone. People forget Senna made mistakes. Lots of mistakes. You can be quick and balanced, but in his F1 years on track I never saw that. You could argue that's why Senna is no longer with us and for example, why JYS is. Now there is a great - in every sense.


Jackie could very easily have met his end at Spa in 1966. Jackie being here today is partially luck that his fuel didn't ignite when he crashed then. There were a lot of factors in those days, and there was a certain amount of luck involved with why some didn't perish in crashes, while others did.

But you can't actually argue that is why Senna is no longer here. What happened at Imola is still debated today, and it doesn't seem anyone will ever know for certain what happened.

The other thing I just want to mention, is that since cameras weren't all over the place like they are today, there's a ton of stuff by highly regarded drivers in the past that was overlooked because only a few people saw it.

#1424 Kyo

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:16

Irvine : Rain. Because on slicks you were quicker than me, on wets you weren’t.
Senna : Really? Really? How did I come and overtake you on wets?
Irvine : Huh?
Senna : How come I overtook you on wets?
Irvine : I can’t remember that. I don’t actually remember the race.


:rotfl:

#1425 jj2728

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:37

The other thing I just want to mention, is that since cameras weren't all over the place like they are today, there's a ton of stuff by highly regarded drivers in the past that was overlooked because only a few people saw it.


Oh I don't know, I don't think there was a ton of stuff that happened back then because the potential consequences were so dire. There were the Willy Mairesse's for sure, but they were the exception rather than the rule.

#1426 BoschKurve

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:48

Irvine : Rain. Because on slicks you were quicker than me, on wets you weren’t.
Senna : Really? Really? How did I come and overtake you on wets?
Irvine : Huh?
Senna : How come I overtook you on wets?
Irvine : I can’t remember that. I don’t actually remember the race.

:rotfl:


I think it is safe to say Eddie Irvine was one of the stupidest people to ever grace F1. :lol:

#1427 Jimisgod

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 06:27

:rotfl:

Regardless, punching Irvine was poor, poor form from such an experienced driver.


http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Would have happened here too, had it not been for 6 million McLaren and Ferrari mechanics.

#1428 flavio81

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:10

There are flattering stories about Piquet? I've genuinely never heard one ;)


There are many of them if you avoid the british and brazilian F1 journalists. In Italy he's idolized, loved and well liked, for example.

#1429 flavio81

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:14

I think that's putting it too harshly. He was two people. Away from racing, he was one of the more thoughtful, caring, decent men who have ever raced in Formula 1.


If you research his romantic life you'll see he wasn't really such a nice guy when being on a relationship.

Anyway, the guy (Senna) was a fantastic racer, part of his talent was to be really obsessive and have a immense amount of self-confidence, focus and determination which was also fueled by a HUGE ego. I don't think one can be an all-around nice guy with such combination.

Do I need the enigma machine to decipher the meaning behind this post?

It does mean Senna is scummy when it was in response to him justifying ramming Prost off the circuit. The true mark of how scummy a man is is by how he carries himself amongst those perceived to be "below" him and by the bad he does. It is most definitely not defined by the good one does because good deeds can be carried out with the worst of intentions.

Either way, smashing Irvine's head in, ramming competitors off in an era of still questionable safety, making Schumacher cry, throwing tantrums and responding to why he rammed off Alain with the words "Because I am Senna", just goes to show how much of an utter tw*t he was.


Yep. He was the fastest qualifier of all times and also the most arrogant driver this sport has seen. People forget (or don't know) that before 1994 Ayrton wasn't so beloved by F1 fans as he is now. On those times he was criticized and hated by MANY people because of all his antics.

The punching of Irvine in the face was ridiculous and unjustifiable by any means. As all the other things he did to Prost in F1, and to Martin Brundle pre-F1. Mansell too wasn't so happy with him. Keke Rosberg was very vocal against the guy too.

As other poster said, it's the John Lennon effect.

Edited by flavio81, 25 November 2012 - 09:20.


#1430 DutchCruijff

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:20

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Would have happened here too, had it not been for 6 million McLaren and Ferrari mechanics.

Context.

Both seniors and the adrenaline was pumping.

#1431 DutchCruijff

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:22

Jackie could very easily have met his end at Spa in 1966. Jackie being here today is partially luck that his fuel didn't ignite when he crashed then. There were a lot of factors in those days, and there was a certain amount of luck involved with why some didn't perish in crashes, while others did.

But you can't actually argue that is why Senna is no longer here. What happened at Imola is still debated today, and it doesn't seem anyone will ever know for certain what happened.


http://news.bbc.co.u...ort/3641633.stm

His death, was most likely, due to his over-excitement in chasing the leader. Brazil '94 being another example.

#1432 ensign14

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:27

I think it is safe to say Eddie Irvine was one of the stupidest people to ever grace F1. :lol:

Eh? A talent that was a little above the mediocre and he makes a hundred million plus from his career and spinoffs, while sleeping with anything with tits he wants? He was winding Senna up a treat.

His death, was most likely, due to his over-excitement in chasing the leader. Brazil '94 being another example.

Other than he was leading.

#1433 repcobrabham

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:35

greatness isn't about being nice or modest or appropriate ... but whoever compared AS to john lennon (noted curmudgeon and wife-beater) is spot on. real-time negatives like ego or rudeness or self-importance dissolve with time but the essential qualities endure. an early death helps with the greatness quotient - see jim, jimi, janis, kurt and also MJ to an extent - but that's a big price to pay. i'm sure AS would rather be alive and ranked #5.

i'd also like to address the emerging AS - NP dichomoty. one only has to see the scene in the senna doco where NP raises the issue about the escape road before suzuka 90 to understand they were in cahoots on that issue. viviane senna is the only one to imply AS represented brasil when NP didn't, while ron is the only one who suggests pole was 'switched' at that race: it's clear that AS realised the RHS pole was no good after his slow start in 89 (after stalling in 88) which is why he requested the change in 90.

#1434 flavio81

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:35

Senna's death was most likely due to a mechanical failure, it's unfair to think he did anything to cause his own death.

In any case, i think choosing the "Greatest of all times" driver would depend on which your criteria is for ranking a driver... For example using the criterias:

a. Best race to win ratio, and winning the championship/races with different team/engines: JUAN MANUEL FANGIO

b. Fastest qualifier: AYRTON SENNA or JIM CLARK

c. Most wins / championships: MICHAEL SCHUMACHER

d. Beat most WDC teammates: ALAIN PROST

all above criterias are good, i think. I personally prefer criteria (d) and thus my favorite driver. I also would nominate NIKI LAUDA for best of all times, too.

Edited by flavio81, 25 November 2012 - 09:39.


#1435 DutchCruijff

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:35

Eh? A talent that was a little above the mediocre and he makes a hundred million plus from his career and spinoffs, while sleeping with anything with tits he wants? He was winding Senna up a treat.


Other than he was leading.

Apologies, when chasing the leader or another pressure from 2nd place :p

Always did think Schumacher got under his skin leading to him making mistakes.

#1436 Wander

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:06

I don't think we should start debating about the cause of Senna's fatal crash, but I will simply say that I've viewed the footage several times, and the way the car just suddenly stops turning mid-corner, does not correlate with making a mistake. To me, the only explanation that has made sense (again, from looking at the footage) is that the steering failed. I don't know if Damon had had a look at the footage himself or if he just thought from his experience that it was possible to lose that car in that corner. Who knows.

In any case, I don't think it's fair to say that Senna's approach to racing lead to his death. Many drivers with none of that kind of approach died (Clark, Rindt) and many very aggressive drivers survived (De Cecaris, Mansell..).

#1437 man

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:10

Quick observations of the BBC list:

Alonso and Hamilton should be rated above Mansell - who despite his heroics is not quite "up there".

Vettel should not be ranked any higher than Alonso and Hamilton despite more favourable circumstances which have enabled him to clock up an impressive cv.

Schumacher is ranked too high - A driver who benefited from preferential treatment, is fairly mistake prone compared to others on the list, and hasn't looked very clever alongside a driver in the mould of N Rosberg.

Also I can't see how Hakkinen could be ranked higher than Hamilton...

In fact there is so much wrong with the list...



#1438 Wander

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:40

Quick observations of the BBC list:

1. Alonso and Hamilton should be rated above Mansell - who despite his heroics is not quite "up there".

2. Vettel should not be ranked any higher than Alonso and Hamilton despite more favourable circumstances which have enabled him to clock up an impressive cv.

3. Schumacher is ranked too high - A driver who benefited from preferential treatment, is fairly mistake prone compared to others on the list, and hasn't looked very clever alongside a driver in the mould of N Rosberg.

4. Also I can't see how Hakkinen could be ranked higher than Hamilton...

In fact there is so much wrong with the list...


1. I agree. Mansell has a negative team mate record. Not only did Prost beat him, but Rosberg and Elio de Angelis. The only one he properly beat was Patrese.

2. The situation between current drivers is changing constantly, making it difficult to judge their careers. I won't even comment.

3. Some agree, some don't. I think he's about where he should be.

4. I do. Häkkinen only ever drove 3 cars capable of a world championship and he did it twice. Hamilton has only one to his name so far. Also, don't forget that this list was done before this year started and Hamilton's last year didn't do much good to his reputation. Also, too early to judge him properly, just like Vettel.

#1439 Cult

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:48

Quick observations of the BBC list:

Alonso and Hamilton should be rated above Mansell - who despite his heroics is not quite "up there".

Vettel should not be ranked any higher than Alonso and Hamilton despite more favourable circumstances which have enabled him to clock up an impressive cv.

Schumacher is ranked too high - A driver who benefited from preferential treatment, is fairly mistake prone compared to others on the list, and hasn't looked very clever alongside a driver in the mould of N Rosberg.

Also I can't see how Hakkinen could be ranked higher than Hamilton...

In fact there is so much wrong with the list...


Schumacher outqualified his teammates 93% of the time before 2002, he earnt his preferential treatment and gave many wins back e.g. Malaysia 99.

Ridiculous that people paint Schumacher out as some unusual creature despite Alonso receiving exactly the same benefit (if not stronger); Senna had clear no.2 drivers with different equipment; same for Fangio who was always given the best team equipment.

I agree with the rest of your points by and large but some of the criticisms against Schumacher are uneven given other greats discretions in the same area.

Edited by Cult, 25 November 2012 - 10:53.


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#1440 CSquared

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 20:42

I don't think we should start debating about the cause of Senna's fatal crash, but I will simply say that I've viewed the footage several times, and the way the car just suddenly stops turning mid-corner, does not correlate with making a mistake. To me, the only explanation that has made sense (again, from looking at the footage) is that the steering failed. I don't know if Damon had had a look at the footage himself or if he just thought from his experience that it was possible to lose that car in that corner. Who knows.

In any case, I don't think it's fair to say that Senna's approach to racing lead to his death. Many drivers with none of that kind of approach died (Clark, Rindt) and many very aggressive drivers survived (De Cecaris, Mansell..).

From the footage and from plenty of other evidence as well. Hill was an employee of Williams who were involved in a legal case at the time. He is not to be considered a reliable source of commentary on the matter.

#1441 ensign14

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 21:05

Had it been a steering failure, they wouldn't have let Hill back out there.

I tend to look at cui bono. And the Italians made bloody sure nobody could properly inspect the car. There was a suspicion that Senna ran over some debris that affected the ride height...

#1442 hogstar

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 21:43

Had it been a steering failure, they wouldn't have let Hill back out there.

I tend to look at cui bono. And the Italians made bloody sure nobody could properly inspect the car. There was a suspicion that Senna ran over some debris that affected the ride height...




The above is one of the more plausible reason/s for the accident. Steering columns just don't break off on the track. It's a ridiculous theory that has gained almost legendary status. Although (maybe too) much has been written on the accident, IMO when all the variables are added up, Senna drove too fast for the conditions. Schumacher said Senna almost lost it on the lap before - why would he make that up? I would add that the Italians would do anything not to be blamed for the crash. Technically speaking the race shouldn't of gone ahead, because in Italian Law if someone dies at an event, the whole event has to then cease. Poor Roland was obviously dead at the track, but 'officially' died off track, so the event didn't have to be cancelled from a legal point.

I would also add that although Hill was a Williams driver, it is disingenuous to say he was not a reliable source. He wasn't an 18 year old kid at the time and has always come across as an honest, decent and fair guy.

#1443 BoschKurve

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 22:19

I don't think we should start debating about the cause of Senna's fatal crash, but I will simply say that I've viewed the footage several times, and the way the car just suddenly stops turning mid-corner, does not correlate with making a mistake. To me, the only explanation that has made sense (again, from looking at the footage) is that the steering failed. I don't know if Damon had had a look at the footage himself or if he just thought from his experience that it was possible to lose that car in that corner. Who knows.

In any case, I don't think it's fair to say that Senna's approach to racing lead to his death. Many drivers with none of that kind of approach died (Clark, Rindt) and many very aggressive drivers survived (De Cecaris, Mansell..).


The thing I've grown to believe it was, is that Senna was running the suspension too low to the ground. I know he liked running the car as low as he could get it.

From the restart on lap 6, you could see plenty of sparks flying out from underneath his FW-16 on his run down to the Tamburello. Even when he went through the Tamburello, you can see a huge shower of sparks fly out.

Now, even though his tires would have been fully warmed out by the time he came around again to the start/finish straight, when he headed down to the Tamburello for the final time, there were still sparks flying out. The car was still bottoming out. If you watch the onboard from Michael's B-194, there is a shower of sparks again from the Williams bottoming out in the middle of the corner, and as soon as the sparks come out, the car veered straight off the track. I think he got the surfboard effect at the absolute worst possible time, and the end result was what it was.

I recall on another message board perhaps, someone saying that for years afterwards, Frank Williams would not let his drivers screw around with the suspension settings. The steering column failure is implausible, but it sounds good because it takes the responsibility away from Senna. I'd have to check again, but I don't recall Damon's FW-16 bottoming out the way Senna's was that day.

#1444 Kyo

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 22:32

Piquet gave an interview about Senna's death. The points that stuck in my memories was he saying there was no chance of being a driver mistake, there was no way any person would get Tamburello corner wrong. The other was that no one would ever admit any culpability. Then the interviewer asked if it is not part of the F1 game to admit mistakes. Piquet just said "Not in death's case".

#1445 SparkPlug

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:59

I thought the whole thing was hilarious. It made no difference to the race result anyway. When Senna went into the motorhome post-race, he didn't actually recognize Irvine...


It wasnt hilarious by any means. Senna had a history of acting like a psychopath once things didnt start going his way. Mika Hakkinen, one of the nicest guys to have ever driven in Formula 1, also had a spat with Senna once. Senna became ice cold with him from the day Hakkinen out qualified him in 1993. Intimidating and threatening opponents both on and off track was one of Senna's favorite pastimes.

Oh I don't know, I don't think there was a ton of stuff that happened back then because the potential consequences were so dire. There were the Willy Mairesse's for sure, but they were the exception rather than the rule.


Gerhard Berger “We drove harder and more brutally,” Berger said. “Three times a lap we drove each other into the walls without complaining. This was just part of it. We would have thought nothing of an action like Michael’s against Barrichello.”

Obviously 3 times a lap is not be taken literally, but maybe we'd all appreciate if we dont paint the 70s and 80s as some sort of saintly era where only gentlemen were racing. There are others who may have watched the era, without the rose tinted glasses, you know ;)


#1446 ensign14

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:53

It wasnt hilarious by any means. Senna had a history of acting like a psychopath once things didnt start going his way. Mika Hakkinen, one of the nicest guys to have ever driven in Formula 1, also had a spat with Senna once. Senna became ice cold with him from the day Hakkinen out qualified him in 1993. Intimidating and threatening opponents both on and off track was one of Senna's favorite pastimes.

It was hilarious cos Irvine was winding Senna up rotten and Senna was in such a blind rage he couldn't notice it. Indeed after Senna shoved Irvine, Eddie's response was "insurance claim there".

As for Mairesse, I think people thought he was more a danger to himself than anyone else, I don't recall any incidents where people feared wheel-to-wheel with him (and for all his Wild Willy reputation he was a monster on the unforgiving Targa Florio). Chris Bristow though was similar to Mairesse...

#1447 Wander

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 13:07

The thing I've grown to believe it was, is that Senna was running the suspension too low to the ground. I know he liked running the car as low as he could get it.

From the restart on lap 6, you could see plenty of sparks flying out from underneath his FW-16 on his run down to the Tamburello. Even when he went through the Tamburello, you can see a huge shower of sparks fly out.

Now, even though his tires would have been fully warmed out by the time he came around again to the start/finish straight, when he headed down to the Tamburello for the final time, there were still sparks flying out. The car was still bottoming out. If you watch the onboard from Michael's B-194, there is a shower of sparks again from the Williams bottoming out in the middle of the corner, and as soon as the sparks come out, the car veered straight off the track. I think he got the surfboard effect at the absolute worst possible time, and the end result was what it was.

I recall on another message board perhaps, someone saying that for years afterwards, Frank Williams would not let his drivers screw around with the suspension settings. The steering column failure is implausible, but it sounds good because it takes the responsibility away from Senna. I'd have to check again, but I don't recall Damon's FW-16 bottoming out the way Senna's was that day.


Note that I never said anything about the column itself failing. I just said that I thought that the footage looked like the steering failed, cause the car stops turning. If this was due to car bottoming out or anything else that could potentially cause the same effect, I can totally accept them as plausible explanations cause I have no evidence at all of what actually happened.

If it was a thing with ride height that would not be a driving mistake as such, but a mistake that was done before the race. I don't know how likely it is that that actually happened, but if similar things have happened before, I guess it could be plausible.

#1448 CSquared

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 19:08

Note that I never said anything about the column itself failing. I just said that I thought that the footage looked like the steering failed, cause the car stops turning. If this was due to car bottoming out or anything else that could potentially cause the same effect, I can totally accept them as plausible explanations cause I have no evidence at all of what actually happened.

If it was a thing with ride height that would not be a driving mistake as such, but a mistake that was done before the race. I don't know how likely it is that that actually happened, but if similar things have happened before, I guess it could be plausible.

When have similar things happened?

#1449 Wander

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 19:12

I don't know. If accidents following from car bottoming out have not happened before or after, then I would obviously see that explanation as just as inplausible as the steering column one.

#1450 Jovanotti

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 19:18

After this season, and with Vettel 8, Alonso 10 and Hamilton 15 it seems such a joke to have Räikkönen not even included in the list...