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Top 20 Greatest F1 Drivers of all time - BBC list [split]


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#1651 LiJu914

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 18:43

If Ferrari was using Massa's car as a test bed for various things -resulting in a constantly changing car that the driver never gets a feel for-- how does one really factor in such things when doing a points comparison between teammates?

This is just a broader statement...can statistics really be effectively used to judge comparisons between Schumacher and Irvine, and then Schumacher and Barichello since team orders were in full play? Assuming the cars are equal, and there are no team orders, a statistical comparison is going to be more effective. Yet, how would we know if the cars were equal? We're taking it for granted both cars are equal. Without knowing all of the other external factors on the situation, it makes any statistical analysis of F1 difficult.


There´s no way to get a reliabe result regarding the drivers abilities from any available statistic. F1 is just too technical for that. Even if we take the easiest scenario possible - e.g. teammates with equal material, equal reliability etc. - there are several factors, which have to be considered. E.g. The general behaviour of the car, might just give edge for one driver as it suits his style better - and we might never know, that the result would´ve been different with other - but still equal - material....or just simply if a driver is "in good shape" in a specific period of time or not (that might sound vague, but i guess that also exists for drivers as it does for other athletes: E.g. Federer achieving a grand slam in year X and not winning sh!t in year Y.....despite using the same racket.;) )

As we all know, the result is, that there are vastly differing opinions about that issue - even if we only focus on the currently active generation, let alone all generations as a whole...



Ps. One small remark about your last passage:
It´s al little bit ironic, when someone puts much emphasis on using MSC as the example for possibly "unequal conditions", and uses a avatar of Senna sitting in a Lotus at the same time.

Edited by LiJu914, 06 December 2012 - 18:50.


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#1652 BoschKurve

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 19:27

There´s no way to get a reliabe result regarding the drivers abilities from any available statistic. F1 is just too technical for that. Even if we take the easiest scenario possible - e.g. teammates with equal material, equal reliability etc. - there are several factors, which have to be considered. E.g. The general behaviour of the car, might just give edge for one driver as it suits his style better - and we might never know, that the result would´ve been different with other - but still equal - material....or just simply if a driver is "in good shape" in a specific period of time or not (that might sound vague, but i guess that also exists for drivers as it does for other athletes: E.g. Federer achieving a grand slam in year X and not winning sh!t in year Y.....despite using the same racket.;) )

As we all know, the result is, that there are vastly differing opinions about that issue - even if we only focus on the currently active generation, let alone all generations as a whole...


I agree. I think the point was really that there are so many factors given the nature of F1, that even though statistics may look cut and dry on the surface, the variables are tremendous. Track surfaces, tires, and so on. Pure spec racing might be the only way to get any real idea for talent levels and so on. Of course F1 was never intended to be a spec race anyhow, although we're closer than ever to it.



Ps. One small remark about your last passage:
It´s al little bit ironic, when someone puts much emphasis on using MSC as the example for possibly "unequal conditions", and uses a avatar of Senna sitting in a Lotus at the same time.


Was it easier to get equal conditions with two F1 cars in 1985/1986 compared to say 2002?

Edited by BoschKurve, 06 December 2012 - 19:27.


#1653 1Devil1

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 19:37

Was it easier to get equal conditions with two F1 cars in 1985/1986 compared to say 2002?


I guess it was easier to build an illegal car in the 80s without any trouble

Edited by 1Devil1, 06 December 2012 - 19:41.


#1654 LiJu914

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 19:46

Was it easier to get equal conditions with two F1 cars in 1985/1986 compared to say 2002?


The latter of course, but i´m not assuming that this was the case at that time or nowadays (only considering equal material) There are of course sometimes exceptions on a single weekend: Like Brazil 2002 at Ferrari or Nürburgring 2009 at McLaren, "Wing-gate" in Silverstone 2010, Ferrari this year in India etc.

Edited by LiJu914, 06 December 2012 - 19:47.


#1655 man

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 23:59

Waiting on Rosberg's 7 titles.


annnnnnd you lose.


Waiting on Schumacher to beat Rosberg for three consecutive seasons in te same team.

So......you lose...again.

Can only beat what is in front of you and 1 time winner Rosberg has done that to Schumacher pretty handsomely.



#1656 as65p

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 00:40

:lol: :lol:

Quoted for hilarity.

Ever as in "up to that point in time" genius. I'm sure people thought radio was the best form of entertainment ever until television showed up...


Calm down. It's fine for you to believe MS is the greatest. Ever, or... whatever. :wave:

#1657 Aloisioitaly

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:30

Greatest f1 driver (list based on average points per race - 2012 scoring system).

1° Juan Manuel Fangio (Argentina) 51 gp, 857 pt – 16,8039 pt/gp
2° Michael Schumacher (Germania) 307 gp, 3.898 pt – 12,6971 pt/gp
3° Alain Prost (Francia) 199 gp, 2.483 pt – 12,4774 pt/gp
4° Sebastian Vettel (Germania) 101 gp, 1.244 pt - 12,3168 pt/gp
5° Lewis Hamilton (Regno Unito) 110 gp, 1.289 pt - 11,7182 pt/gp
6° Ayrton Senna (Brasile) 161 gp, 1.881 pt - 11,6832 pt/gp
7° Jim Clark (Regno Unito) 72 gp, 839 pt - 11,6528 pt/gp
8° Jackie Stewart (Regno Unito) 99 gp, 1.109 pt - 11,2020 pt/gp
9° Fernando Alonso (Spagna) 197 gp, 2.206 pt - 11,1980 pt/gp
10° Kimi Raikkonen (Finlandia) 176 gp, 1.705 pt – 9,6875 pt/gp
11° Damon Hill (Regno Unito) 115 gp, 1.091 pt - 9,4870 pt/gp
12° Stirling Moss (Regno Unito) 66 gp, 601 pt - 9,1061 pt/gp
13° Juan Pablo Montoya (Colombia) 94 gp, 825 pt - 8,7766 pt/gp
14° Mika Hakkinen (Finlandia) 161 gp, 1.382 pt - 8,5839 pt/gp
15° Dennis Hulme (Nuova Zelanda) 112 gp, 940 pt - 8,3929 pt/gp
16° Nelson Piquet (Brasile) 204 gp, 1.688 pt - 8,2745 pt/gp
17° Richard Ginther (Stati Uniti) 52 gp, 422 pt - 8,1154 pt/gp
18° Nigel Mansell (Regno Unito) 187 gp, 1.509 pt - 8,0695 pt/gp
19° Jody Scheckter (Sud Africa) 112 gp, 896 pt - 8,0000 pt/gp
20° Niki Lauda (Austria) 171 gp, 1.343 pt - 7,8538 pt/gp
21° Carlos Reutemann (Argentina) 146 gp, 1.131 pt - 7,7466 pt/gp
22° Bruce McLaren (Nuova Zelanda) 100 gp, 755 pt - 7,5500 pt/gp
23° Jack Brabham (Australia) 126 gp, 939 pt - 7,4524 pt/gp
24° Felipe Massa (Brasile) 172 gp, 1.238 pt - 7,1977 pt/gp
25° Jenson Button (Regno Unito) 228 gp, 1.625 pt - 7,1272 pt/gp
26° David Coulthard (Regno Unito) 246 gp, 1.726 pt - 7,0163 pt/gp
27° Emerson Fittipaldi (Brasile) 144 gp, 994 pt - 6,9028 pt/gp
28° James Hunt (Regno Unito) 92 gp, 629 pt - 6,8370 pt/gp
29° Gerhard Berger (Austria) 210 gp, 1.417 pt - 6,7476 pt/gp
30° Robert Kubica (Polonia) 76 gp, 484 pt - 6,3684 pt/gp
31° Clay Regazzoni (Svizzera) 132 gp, 820 pt - 6,2121 pt/gp
32° Alan Jones (Australia) 116 gp, 707 pt - 6,0948 pt/gp
33° Ralf Schumacher (Germania) 180 gp, 1.096 pt - 6,0889 pt/gp
34° Gilles Villeneuve (Canada) 67 gp, 402 pt - 6,0000 pt/gp
35° Graham Hill (Regno Unito) 176 gp, 1.053 pt - 5,9830 pt/gp
36° Jochen Rindt (Austria) 60 gp, 358 pt - 5,9667 pt/gp
37° Ronnie Peterson (Svezia) 123 gp, 731 pt - 5,9431 pt/gp
38° Mark Webber (Australia) 196 gp, 1.163 pt - 5,9337 pt/gp
39° Didier Pironi (Francia) 70 gp, 414 pt - 5,9143 pt/gp
40° John Surtees (Regno Unito) 111 gp, 656 pt - 5,9099 pt/gp
41° Rubens Barrichello (Brasile) 322 gp, 1.891 pt - 5,8727 pt/gp
42° Jackie Ickx (Belgio) 116 gp, 680 pt - 5,8621 pt/gp
43° Patrick Depailler (Francia) 95 gp, 551 pt - 5,8000 pt/gp
44° Dan Gurney (Stati Uniti) 86 gp, 491 pt - 5,7093 pt/gp
45° Pedro Rodriguez (Messico) 55 gp, 301 pt - 5,4727 pt/gp
46° Eddie Irvine (Regno Unito) 147 gp, 791 pt - 5,3810 pt/gp
47° Mario Andretti (Stati Uniti) 128 gp, 671 pt - 5,2422 pt/gp
48° Jacques Laffite (Francia) 176 gp, 921 pt - 5,2330 pt/gp
49° Keke Rosberg (Finlandia) 114 gp, 595 pt - 5,2193 pt/gp
50° Jacques Villeneuve (Canada) 164 gp, 853 pt - 5,2012 pt/gp


Greatest driver who raced less than 50 gp

- Luigi Fagioli (Italia) 7 gp, 112 pt – 16,0000 pt/gp
- Alberto Ascari (Italia) 32 gp, 443 pt – 13,8438 pt/gp
- Nino Farina (Italia) 33 gp, 432 pt – 13,0909 pt/gp
- Josè Froilan Gonzalez (Argentina) 26 gp, 309 pt – 11,8846 pt/gp
- Mike Hawthorn (Regno Unito) 45 gp, 468 pt – 10,4000 pt/gp


http://www.f1passion...e-della-storia/


#1658 Jimisgod

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 18:43

11° Damon Hill (Regno Unito) 115 gp, 1.091 pt - 9,4870 pt/gp
12° Stirling Moss (Regno Unito) 66 gp, 601 pt - 9,1061 pt/gp


:rotfl: Yeah. Nah. Doesn't take into account the hopeless reliability of years passed and the unbreakable cars of today.



#1659 olliek88

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 19:33

11° Damon Hill (Regno Unito) 115 gp, 1.091 pt - 9,4870 pt/gp
12° Stirling Moss (Regno Unito) 66 gp, 601 pt - 9,1061 pt/gp


:rotfl: Yeah. Nah. Doesn't take into account the hopeless reliability of years passed and the unbreakable cars of today.


Or the quality of cars each driver had at his disposal during the various points of his career. Top 20's or 10s or 5s etc like this are purely subjective and mostly unworkable IMHO.

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#1660 E.B.

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 20:51

33° Ralf Schumacher (Germania) 180 gp, 1.096 pt - 6,0889 pt/gp
34° Gilles Villeneuve (Canada) 67 gp, 402 pt - 6,0000 pt/gp
35° Graham Hill (Regno Unito) 176 gp, 1.053 pt - 5,9830 pt/gp
36° Jochen Rindt (Austria) 60 gp, 358 pt - 5,9667 pt/gp
37° Ronnie Peterson (Svezia) 123 gp, 731 pt - 5,9431 pt/gp


It gets funnier.

Although given the parameters I was half expecting little George Amick to be proclaimed the greatest grand prix driver of all time :drunk:


#1661 beqa16v

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 16:55

I am currently making my own list based on complicated statistical analysis. It looks interesting. Hoping to share it next week

#1662 Kyo

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 19:40

Or the quality of cars each driver had at his disposal during the various points of his career. Top 20's or 10s or 5s etc like this are purely subjective and mostly unworkable IMHO.

not only this as it doesn't take in account the score system of the time. In a 10-6-4-3-2-1 it's worth to risk more for a win as it is if you are in 7th position for example. Same is true when you could discard some results for the championship. And how they did with drivers that shared a car?

Anyway it is still interesting to see Fangio in first with such a large margin to second. I believe Fangio is by far the one with the best stats (relative for the time/races he did).

#1663 schubacca

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 20:23

I think that MS, AS, and AP are my top 3.

MS considers AS as #1.

I consider MS as #1.

I don't think that it is a shame to be in the top 3. I have no issue with AS, AP, JMF, JC being considered #1.

The problem that I have is when MS's accomplishments are belittled so much that some do not even consider him a top 10 driver, and place the likes of FA, SV above him....