135 replies to this topic

[Owen]

Monaco trumps all.

[Ross Stonefeld]

It really doesn't. These days it's 'just another F1 race' and unfolds like one. If anything it accentuates the worst aspects of F1.

[jj2728]

I'd say that Graham Hill was a rookie winner back in 1966. True, he had been to the Brickyard once before - in 1963, when he was signed to drive one of Mickey Thompson's "skateboard" cars. However, Hill decided not to attempt to qualify after hitting the wall during practice - so 1966 was his first Indy race start.

Yes, Graham Hill was considered a rookie at Indy in 1966.

[Collombin]

Yes, Graham Hill was considered a rookie at Indy in 1966.

Yet winning the race wasn't even good enough to win him Rookie of the Year! Fair enough though.

[ClubKid]

Thanks for the corrections

It was Roberto Guerrero who crashed from pole during the pace laps of the 1992 Indy 500

And Graham Hill was a rookie in 1966 when he won the Indianapolis 500

Its fun trying to accumulate facts as to why one leg of the triple crown is tougher then another, but, I'm sure many will agree that there are many drivers capable of doing it even today. If a Mark Webber came to Indianapolis he'd likely get an easy ride in a 3rd Ganassi or 4th Penske car. And if he tried Le Mans again he'd likely get a ride with a factory, easily.

Its just disappointing that most don't attempt it anymore. Alot of F1 guys are worried about the safety at Indianapolis and Le Mans. Michael Schumacher has said he won't try Indianapolis because its a step down from F1 and too dangerous. "I have nothing to prove there. I don't see a challenge in it." he said.

But for every Schumacher there is a Lewis Hamilton, who appears open to racing different forms of motorsport after he is ready to move on from his career in F1.

[EarnardBeccelstone]

It really doesn't. These days it's 'just another F1 race' and unfolds like one. If anything it accentuates the worst aspects of F1 fans.

Fixed it for you...

;)

Edited by EarnardBeccelstone, 07 June 2012 - 23:03.

[jj2728]

Yet winning the race wasn't even good enough to win him Rookie of the Year! Fair enough though.

Jackie Stewart took Rookie of the Year honors in 1966. He was leading by over a lap when his engine let go on lap 190.

[SonnyViceR]

It really doesn't. These days it's 'just another F1 race' and unfolds like one. If anything it accentuates the worst aspects of F1.

Sorry for resurrecting an ancient thread of mine, but (again) this is so sure. Unlike Indy and LM which can be arguably called the blue riband events of their respected genres and how both gain massive hype in advance (for reason), Monaco of today feels just... round X of the championship. Same thing happens as last week, though in historic place of course. Winner of the race doesn't even get very much extra glory. Feels more 'business as usual' and points collecting.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. It is the Month of May now and both Indy & Monaco are happening in the few weeks, with LM due to be run the month after. So start getting excited people! Personally, as always I'll look forward to the single seater aspect with some interest while waiting for the highlight of my year to come (no, not Coca Cola 600 )

Edited by SonnyViceR, 02 May 2013 - 18:54.

[Red17]

Sorry for resurrecting an ancient thread of mine, but (again) this is so sure. Unlike Indy and LM which can be arguably called the blue riband events of their respected genres and how both gain massive hype in advance (for reason), Monaco of today feels just... round X of the championship. Same thing happens as last week.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. It is the Month of May now and both Indy & Monaco are happening in the few weeks, with LM due to be run the month after. So start getting excited people! Personally, as always I'll look forward to the single seater aspect with some interest while waiting for the highlight of my year to come (no, not Coca Cola 600 )

I don't think necroposting is bad, if anything you will hit the limit and the mods will open a new thread.

I think the reason why Monaco may feel bland in your eyes is the FOM coverage, which obeys to the same script as in Valencia and such. But I think the race still has a lot of importance among drivers and teams and there are some small details where the race still feels special, not to mention you get a full day of racing, it's just that the 600 is so bloody late and long that I cannot watch it.

That said, it's probably a good year for Mark Webber to bag his final Monaco and show JPM and JV how a triple crown is won.

[SonnyViceR]

At Monaco, would you seriously risk second place for fighting for a win if it meant that you could lose all of those points if you crashed? Probably not, because winning that race isn't as important as gaining points towards championshp... unlike at the 500 and 24

I also think that the fact that 500 and LM allow one-off entries and other surprises to come and play makes them even more special, it's not all just tied to the same old faces. Also both have eliminations for entrying the race, Le Mans has it's own 56 places + reserve lists, and Indy has bumping (now if only there was some bumping nowadays) if they get too many entries. Bring back Grand Prix pre-qualifying at the very least

Edited by SonnyViceR, 02 May 2013 - 19:00.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Sorry for resurrecting an ancient thread of mine, but (again) this is so sure. Unlike Indy and LM which can be arguably called the blue riband events of their respected genres and how both gain massive hype in advance (for reason), Monaco of today feels just... round X of the championship. Same thing happens as last week, though in historic place of course. Winner of the race doesn't even get very much extra glory. Feels more 'business as usual' and points collecting.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. It is the Month of May now and both Indy & Monaco are happening in the few weeks, with LM due to be run the month after. So start getting excited people! Personally, as always I'll look forward to the single seater aspect with some interest while waiting for the highlight of my year to come (no, not Coca Cola 600 )

I disagree, the TV production may be the same, but if you ask the drivers, they'll all label winning Monaco as one of the big achievements. I mean where else do you collect the prize from a monarch?

The Daytona 500 is like that in NASCAR, sure it's another championship round, but it's created "equal but separate."

[Ross Stonefeld]

At Monaco, would you seriously risk second place for fighting for a win if it meant that you could lose all of those points if you crashed? Probably not, because winning that race isn't as important as gaining points towards championshp... unlike at the 500 and 24

I also think that the fact that 500 and LM allow one-off entries and other surprises to come and play makes them even more special, it's not all just tied to the same old faces. Also both have eliminations for entrying the race, Le Mans has it's own 56 places + reserve lists, and Indy has bumping (now if only there was some bumping nowadays) if they get too many entries. Bring back Grand Prix pre-qualifying at the very least

I think Monaco and Indy are about the same, you'd go for it if you had the chance. Le Mans you'd go for. I don't even know what championship it counts towards these days but whatever it is, few people care.

[DampMongoose]

I must say there is some comedy gold this thread!

Dario has won Indy 3 times and it receives one paragraph in the newspapers at best over here... very few people seem interested anymore!
All the people who suggest a Nascar race being part of the Triple Crown? That's right up there with the Baseball 'World' Series...


My votes

Personal favourite: Le Mans - The ultimate test of machinery, since 1990 it's been a 24 hour sprint according to the drivers.
Most significant: Le Mans - from drivers perspective probably Monaco but for publicity and financial significance it has to be Le Mans, F1 cars and single seaters have no significance to the brands the public know. Ferrari excepted...
Hardest to win: Monaco - You need a F1 seat to race there (only 20 available - previously 16), a very competitive car which at least halves that number and the ability to ride a bike around your living room as Nelson Piquet would put it.

Edited by DampMongoose, 03 May 2013 - 09:40.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Most significant: Le Mans - from drivers perspective probably Monaco but for publicity and financial significance it has to be Le Mans, F1 cars and single seaters have no significance to the brands the public know. Ferrari excepted...

I think you'd be shocked if you saw the media/financial comparison of Le Mans to F1.

[DampMongoose]

I think you'd be shocked if you saw the media/financial comparison of Le Mans to F1.

Probably but the point of the matter though is we are talking about specifically the Monaco GP not F1 as a whole. Winning Le Mans has more relevance to selling road cars than Red Bull/Infiniti winning at Monaco. Monaco GP is only of financial significance to the manufacturer teams of Mercedes and Ferrari for advertising their own brand, but so are the other races. Lotus aren't Lotus so I wouldn't include them, the others are merely there for competition and to have a racing team...

Which may explain why I haven't seen more than 5 Infiniti's on the road yet, despite the huge TV audience for F1 in the UK... Audi TDI however?

[ebc]

My favorite is the Monaco GP, best drivers in the world and F1 looks great through the streets.

Hardest to win would be Monaco GP again as you need to be a top F1 driver in a top car to have a chance, Le mans doesn't really have top class drivers anymore nor does the Indy 500.

Most prestigious would also be the Monaco GP as it has the best drivers, highest TV audience, is the most famous and hardest to win.

After the Monaco GP i would say that the Daytona 500 is next greatest 'event' race, certainly it is more important than Indy 500 these days and has much better drivers and coverage than Le mans.
I think that after F1, NASCAR has the best drivers and that series is the one to be in in North America. Indycar racing IS the 500, it is almost like Le mans were it is one race and the rest are forgotten that is not the case in F1 and NASCAR.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Probably but the point of the matter though is we are talking about specifically the Monaco GP not F1 as a whole. Winning Le Mans has more relevance to selling road cars than Red Bull/Infiniti winning at Monaco. Monaco GP is only of financial significance to the manufacturer teams of Mercedes and Ferrari for advertising their own brand, but so are the other races. Lotus aren't Lotus so I wouldn't include them, the others are merely there for competition and to have a racing team...

Which may explain why I haven't seen more than 5 Infiniti's on the road yet, despite the huge TV audience for F1 in the UK... Audi TDI however?

That assumes Infiniti and Audi sales are heavily tied to their motorsport programs. And ignores how much longer Audi has been around or how much larger it is.

Monaco has a prestige over the other races due to the nature of the race but also it's history. Although I'm not sure it's really more difficult than any other random F1 weekend.

Le Mans is nice and everything but it's sort of the European Indy 500. In fact I'd say Indy is bigger in America than Le Mans is in Europe.

[DampMongoose]

That assumes Infiniti and Audi sales are heavily tied to their motorsport programs. And ignores how much longer Audi has been around or how much larger it is.

Monaco has a prestige over the other races due to the nature of the race but also it's history. Although I'm not sure it's really more difficult than any other random F1 weekend.

Le Mans is nice and everything but it's sort of the European Indy 500. In fact I'd say Indy is bigger in America than Le Mans is in Europe.

I'd disagree, if Infiniti didn't think it relevent why are they sponsoring a car, they have been connected to the F1 champions for a while now and I bet very few people here would have heard of them, so much for F1's media benefit? Also Audi were small fry in the UK before the Le Mans programme. They had 1% of the UK market in 1999 the year they returned to Le Mans, selling 40,000 cars. This year they have 6% with 140,000 (Given they have supported Le Mans every year and gained 11 wins during that time might hint at some correlation, they can see a return)

Yes Monaco has more prestige but as I said from a drivers perspective they would rate that as a higher achievement, Le Mans however, is about teams not individuals so as a marketing excercise (Ferrari excepted) it is more beneficial to the manufacturers... but driving without error and avoiding the barriers is obviously harder than any other F1 circuit where there is a margin for error hence I think that it would be most difficult among the other reasons, I think you'll have a hard time supporting your view on it being comparable in difficulty to any other GP, but no doubt you'll try!

As a one off I suppose Le Mans is more comparable to Indy, although I doubt that in popularity it has a bigger audience/following. US sport has always been somewhat insular with respect of their events, you think it's the centre of the universe no one in the world else seems to agree on that... also I would argue that any series with spec cars is not going to appeal as broadly as an event with some diversity of entries.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I'd disagree, if Infiniti didn't think it relevent why are they sponsoring a car, they have been connected to the F1 champions for a while now and I bet very few people here would have heard of them, so much for F1's media benefit? Also Audi were small fry in the UK before the Le Mans programme. They had 1% of the UK market in 1999 the year they returned to Le Mans, selling 40,000 cars. This year they have 6% with 140,000 (Given they have supported Le Mans every year and gained 11 wins during that time might hint at some correlation, they can see a return)

Eh? That's not what I said at all. My point was just because *you* have only seen a few Infinitis in the UK doesn't say anything about their F1 program or Audi's Le Mans program or the values of each series.

Yes Monaco has more prestige but as I said from a drivers perspective they would rate that as a higher achievement, Le Mans however, is about teams not individuals so as a marketing excercise (Ferrari excepted) it is more beneficial to the manufacturers... but driving without error and avoiding the barriers is obviously harder than any other F1 circuit where there is a margin for error hence I think that it would be most difficult among the other reasons, I think you'll have a hard time supporting your view on it being comparable in difficulty to any other GP, but no doubt you'll try!

It's a bit apples and oranges though. Yeah the tech you can use at Le Mans is more road-relevant than the tech from F1, but if a lot more people are seeing F1 that's better advertising.

And I don't think these days that Monaco is that different from another GP. Hell not with the amount of run off these days. They drive on the limit, they stay on the pavement, and the fastest guy wins. It's value is more in our eyes than on paper. It's kind of like how a home win is more emotionally important even though it's just another race.

As a one off I suppose Le Mans is more comparable to Indy, although I doubt that in popularity it has a bigger audience/following. US sport has always been somewhat insular with respect of their events, you think it's the centre of the universe no one in the world else seems to agree on that... also I would argue that any series with spec cars is not going to appeal as broadly as an event with some diversity of entries.

US sport is insular, but that's because it can be. It has the economy and the population base to support it. Le Mans(of the front runners, not counting gentleman drivers) vs Indy is probably similar in driver talent.

I've seen the marketing numbers on Le Mans, it was a lot smaller than I thought. Given it's reputation you'd have thought it had a massive following. Oddly enough in the UK, Indycar and Le mans have a similar following on TV. Which is to say next to none.

[crespo]

LM
LM
Indy

(not a dig at Monaco in any way, but its being just another round in the championship in the grand scheme of things put the others ahead of it for me)

Edited by crespo, 03 May 2013 - 16:19.

[DampMongoose]

Eh? That's not what I said at all. My point was just because *you* have only seen a few Infinitis in the UK doesn't say anything about their F1 program or Audi's Le Mans program or the values of each series.



It's a bit apples and oranges though. Yeah the tech you can use at Le Mans is more road-relevant than the tech from F1, but if a lot more people are seeing F1 that's better advertising.

And I don't think these days that Monaco is that different from another GP. Hell not with the amount of run off these days. They drive on the limit, they stay on the pavement, and the fastest guy wins. It's value is more in our eyes than on paper. It's kind of like how a home win is more emotionally important even though it's just another race.



US sport is insular, but that's because it can be. It has the economy and the population base to support it. Le Mans(of the front runners, not counting gentleman drivers) vs Indy is probably similar in driver talent.

I've seen the marketing numbers on Le Mans, it was a lot smaller than I thought. Given it's reputation you'd have thought it had a massive following. Oddly enough in the UK, Indycar and Le mans have a similar following on TV. Which is to say next to none.

You suggested Infiniti sales might not be heavily tied to Motorsport, then why would they sponsor an F1 team? Or do they have money to burn? In the UK this marketing has apparently had little impact on their car sales, so here it is not working... Audi has seen significant increases which likely supports them remaining in sportscars. That was my point which directly addressed your suggestion...

As for Monte Carlo If you put a wheel 1 foot wide on exit at 75% of the tracks in F1 does your wheel snap off on the armco or your suspension break? Can't see what you're on about to be honest...

Le Mans won't have as large a marketing benefit at the moment because virtually all the manufacturers have ditched it because the ACO can't make a competitive set of rules! So compared to the past when Porsche, Mercedes, Toyota, Nissan, Jaguar, Aston Martin and Lancia were all running it won't be as beneficial, but the prestige is still there and I would be surprised if the manufacturers see as much benefit from the Monaco GP compared to a Le Mans win.

[Winter98]

Well the Indy 500 should have a huge asterix next to it...it does not draw the best American drivers much less the best drivers in the world...if Indy truly was a leg of the triple then guys like Tony Stewart would run it...

Yeah.

It's gone from the premier NA sports event, one that captivated the attention of everyone, motorsports fans and non-fans alike, to just another stop on the circuit.

My parents, who didn't give a rats for motorsports, always ended up at some party watching the race. It was yesteryear's Super Bowl Sunday.

Edited by Winter98, 03 May 2013 - 18:55.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I'd definitely include an F1 race, probably a NASCAR oval race because ovals are there only thing and that's where all the American talent is and it's a deep field.

I want to include the Indy 500 because it's a weird hybrid of both but I'm not sure. I'd almost say the 3rd leg should be off road like a rally, but that's a weak series too these days.

It's hard for me to get excited about Le Mans, they're basically F1 cars underneath and the drivers, imo, don't have as much of an input. In the sense that I'm more impressed by Ickx and Bell than Kristensen.

[DampMongoose]

Sorry I'm missing something here, we're not picking a triple crown it IS historically acknowledged as the 3 races mentioned! It may be devalued because the modern 500 attracts next to no decent drivers or a selection of cars , or that no big manufacturers enter le mans it is those events...

[Ross Stonefeld]

It's neither the 10 Commandments nor the US Constitution, it can be changed to represent the changes in racing.

[Bob Riebe]

Let's face it boys, "major" racing circuits are not what they used to be.

They are all spec. series of some form, that are a shadow of what they used to be.

[DampMongoose]

Sadly all too true, how NASCAR has become so popular is beyond me! Unfortunately the contrived aspects of it have infiltrated the formerly real racing!

[Wander]

Graham Hill still the only one to win all three?

[DampMongoose]

It's neither the 10 Commandments nor the US Constitution, it can be changed to represent the changes in racing.

Historical meaning is not a strong trait of the us...

[DampMongoose]

Graham Hill still the only one to win all three?

Depends what the triple is this week, according to some!

[Atreiu]

Depends what the triple is this week, according to some!

WSBK, MotoGP and Suzuka 8 hours!
IIRC, only Alexandre Barros has victories in all three.

Edited by Atreiu, 03 May 2013 - 21:47.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Sadly all too true, how NASCAR has become so popular is beyond me! Unfortunately the contrived aspects of it have infiltrated the formerly real racing!

It's still racing though. No matter the gimmicks, no matter the series, you still have to pass the guy and defend your own position. Some series are just more geared towards entertainment. It's a decision of whether you run your championship with the fans or the entrants as the priority.

[DampMongoose]

It's still racing though. No matter the gimmicks, no matter the series, you still have to pass the guy and defend your own position. Some series are just more geared towards entertainment. It's a decision of whether you run your championship with the fans or the entrants as the priority.

there is no race if a lead you built up Is removed by imaginary yellow flags etc, sorry Usain but we had to pop your chute, it just wasn't fun for the crap guys!

That's motorsport OR entertainment...

[Ross Stonefeld]

The nature of oval racing, especially over 500 miles, means you can't really build up big leads anyways. NASCAR is happy to throw the yellow at the slightest provocation because it does have a positive impact on 'the show' and yeah they can even be suspicious but it's an urban legend that it's one made up safety car period after another.

[Juan Kerr]

I think Michael Schumacher should enter the Indy 500 assuming that he could if he wanted jump in a potential winning Le Man car for that race also in the near future.

[Dolph]

I think Michael Schumacher should enter the Indy 500 assuming that he could if he wanted jump in a potential winning Le Man car for that race also in the near future.

Regarding Le Mans... he did it in the past but I'm afraid his ability to judge closing speeds is under question now. And that's very important in sports cars due to mixed classes.