Edited to correct date, that'll teach me for copying EPG
Edited by Crafty, 27 May 2012 - 19:57.
Posted 27 May 2012 - 18:17
Edited by Crafty, 27 May 2012 - 19:57.
Posted 27 May 2012 - 23:06
Posted 28 May 2012 - 10:56
Posted 28 May 2012 - 11:02
Posted 28 May 2012 - 11:03
Posted 28 May 2012 - 12:11
Posted 28 May 2012 - 13:50
It must have been filmed a while back, given that Salvo appears and seems fine.
Posted 28 May 2012 - 14:05
It was first shown on BBC4 during May 2009 so probably filmed during the previous year
Posted 28 May 2012 - 14:09
Posted 28 May 2012 - 15:19
Posted 28 May 2012 - 15:39
Don't forget that some blondes, particularly the North American sub-species, weather the years ratherwellThe Copyright stamp at the end stated 'MMII' - which means 2002. I reckon that some of the interviewing was done years earlier than that - the blonde, for instance, was surely not 40 years older (when interviewed) than she had been when Shelby hired her in the first place ?
AAGR
Posted 28 May 2012 - 15:48
Don't forget that some blondes, particularly the North American sub-species, weather the years ratherwell ;)
I watched it when it first came out, perhaps I'll watch it again tonight, although that's after my usual bed time.
Posted 28 May 2012 - 19:15
Posted 28 May 2012 - 20:03
But you have to say that Enzo doubtless went away from Le Mans in 1964 thoroughly pleased with a 1-2-3 victory and probably didn't even notice some Yanks winning the GT class...
Posted 29 May 2012 - 06:30
I liked the piece of presumably period US coverage of Le Mans with a be-blazered type declaiming about Ferrari's domination. Apart form the five years of Jaguar dominance that is...
Edited by Nigel Beresford, 29 May 2012 - 06:38.
Posted 29 May 2012 - 06:56
I doubt if Enzo was ever aware that there was a 'war' on at all, certainly not at the time. Didn't he mostly leave the GT class to his customers ?
Posted 29 May 2012 - 08:15
At no point does the film make any effort to point out that we are talking the lesser GT category and Ferrari would only have seen being beaten by Shelby as a minor irritation.
Posted 29 May 2012 - 09:18
Exactly. I don't wish to knock the efforts of Mr. Shelby or the Cobra team but this film was "spun" to give a totally false impression to a non specialist audience. Le Mans '64 was the scene of one of the first "battles" of the "Ford Ferrari Wars" but that wasn't what the film was about! I find it truly irritating that Shelby's efforts to race GT cars in Europe are portrayed as tiny newcomer against the might of Ferrari. Given that Ferrari factory GT entries rarely happened, GTOs were almost always raced by customers whereas the Cobras were a works team, backed by Ford and able to employ the likes of Dan Gurney the truth is really the other way round. Sledgehammer to crack a nut springs to mind.
At no point does the film make any effort to point out that we are talking the lesser GT category and Ferrari would only have seen being beaten by Shelby as a minor irritation.
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Posted 29 May 2012 - 16:05
Ah, was it? I know of him, of course, but am not familiar with his looks. He was wearing a blazer, and if he did know about Jaguar, he didn't seem to let it get in the way of what he said!Not a "be-blazered type" at all... that was Chris Economaki, a man worthy of much respect and surely aware of Jaguar's record at Le Mans.
Posted 29 May 2012 - 20:03
Ah, was it? I know of him, of course, but am not familiar with his looks. He was wearing a blazer, and if he did know about Jaguar, he didn't seem to let it get in the way of what he said!
Edited by Nigel Beresford, 29 May 2012 - 20:32.
Posted 29 May 2012 - 20:46
Posted 29 May 2012 - 20:47
...if he did know about Jaguar, he didn't seem to let it get in the way of what he said!
Posted 29 May 2012 - 20:51
.....much of which seemed to be concerned with re-writing history.
Posted 29 May 2012 - 22:25
Posted 30 May 2012 - 10:16
At least we have been consistent in our comments in both threads!Well, this is called The Nostalgia Forum for very good reasons.
But wasn't that a piece of period footage? So unless Chris is psychic, he wouldn't have known in 1964 what these film makers wanted him to say?I'm sure he would have known, but that wasn't what the film makers wanted him to say. It wouldn't have fitted in with their agenda, much of which seemed to be concerned with re-writing history.
Posted 30 May 2012 - 11:26
Posted 30 May 2012 - 12:05
The Copyright stamp at the end stated 'MMII' - which means 2002. I reckon that some of the interviewing was done years earlier than that - the blonde, for instance, was surely not 40 years older (when interviewed) than she had been when Shelby hired her in the first place ?
AAGR
Posted 30 May 2012 - 19:39
Exactly. I don't wish to knock the efforts of Mr. Shelby or the Cobra team but this film was "spun" to give a totally false impression to a non specialist audience. Le Mans '64 was the scene of one of the first "battles" of the "Ford Ferrari Wars" but that wasn't what the film was about! I find it truly irritating that Shelby's efforts to race GT cars in Europe are portrayed as tiny newcomer against the might of Ferrari. Given that Ferrari factory GT entries rarely happened, GTOs were almost always raced by customers whereas the Cobras were a works team, backed by Ford and able to employ the likes of Dan Gurney the truth is really the other way round. Sledgehammer to crack a nut springs to mind.
At no point does the film make any effort to point out that we are talking the lesser GT category and Ferrari would only have seen being beaten by Shelby as a minor irritation.
Posted 30 May 2012 - 21:07
Because he foresaw lost salesAgain I think this isn't fully reflective of the truth. Enzo was VERY upset when the FIA refused to homologate the 250LM as a GT. If he wasn't concerned about the GT class why get so upset?
In GT cars at Le Mans?And they were able to employ the Ferrari works drivers such as Surtees, Bandini, Parkes and Scarfiotti, as well as world champions such as Graham Hill and Phil Hill.
Posted 30 May 2012 - 21:32
Phil Hill worked as a double agent in 1964?And they were able to employ the Ferrari works drivers such as Surtees, Bandini, Parkes and Scarfiotti, as well as world champions such as Graham Hill and Phil Hill.
Posted 30 May 2012 - 22:54
Again I think this isn't fully reflective of the truth. Enzo was VERY upset when the FIA refused to homologate the 250LM as a GT. If he wasn't concerned about the GT class why get so upset?
Also the "customers" you refer to were surely semi-works teams. They not only ran GTs but works standard prototypes. And they were able to employ the Ferrari works drivers such as Surtees, Bandini, Parkes and Scarfiotti, as well as world champions such as Graham Hill and Phil Hill.
Posted 31 May 2012 - 09:03
Seems a pretty fair summation of the whole thing RCH.The semi works teams, by which I guess you mean Maranello Concessionaires, Ecurie Francorchamps, NART, Fillipinetti etc were increasingly running prototypes by 1964, something had to be done with those 250LMs, and the drivers you mention would be more likely in a prototype. In fact, as it transpired, Ferrari was able to sell LMs to teams who were happy to run them as prototypes so he was able to let the GT series go hang.
By 1965, when much was made of the Cobras winning the championship, there were few GTOs to be seen. It would appear that the only people making a regular attempt to keep Ferrari in the GT championship were Mike Salmon and Peter Sutcliffe. Whilst I have the greatest respect for both these drivers they were hardly a works team.
Posted 31 May 2012 - 11:00
Posted 31 May 2012 - 11:24
A bit late in with this one, but the "modern" stuff was shot at Goodwood on 21st February 2002, with most of the driving done by Mark Hales.It was first shown on BBC4 during May 2009 so probably filmed during the previous year
Posted 31 May 2012 - 11:41
Posted 31 May 2012 - 12:07
I am glad to see that my own doubts about describing 1965 as a "war" between Ferraris and Cobras are shared by many TNFers.
By 1965 the GTO was getting a bit long in the tooth. Even the aforementioned Salmon and Sutcliffe only took in selected events and certainly didn't embark on a full season of GT qualifying races. In reality there was nothing else around to challenge the Shelby domination. The big GT class tended to be made up of privateer GTOs, and depending where the race was, various other marques. For example the TT at Oulton had a handful of Jaguar Es, whilst the stateside qualifiers would have included a number of Corvettes.
A quick check on an internet site gives the final points score as Shelby 90, Ferrari 71, Austin Healey 8, Jaguar 7, Chevrolet 2. The fact that Ferrari were only 19pts behind gives something of a false impression as they were never in the running for the title, but picked up points at most races from placing, although a GTO did win the class at the Targa in the absence of Cobras.
Posted 31 May 2012 - 12:21
Yes, totally forgot Le Mans!! Not such a good race for the Cobras with 8th overall ( 2nd in class) the best placing.Le Mans was very important to them so in '65 they provided Swaters with a very special 275GTB with paper-thin bodywork and so far under the homologated weight it was a joke; it came 3rd.
Paul M
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 12:39
Yes, totally forgot Le Mans!! Not such a good race for the Cobras with 8th overall ( 2nd in class) the best placing.
Posted 31 May 2012 - 13:29
Knowing a little about Maranello Concessionaires, it's stretching things a bit to refer to them as a semi-works team. They never really had anything to race that was in the same league as the factory cars, they were always deficient in valves per cylinder or something equally important.
Posted 31 May 2012 - 13:59
Posted 31 May 2012 - 14:11
Both Enzo and Carroll were salesmen, promoters and brand builders. I think both of them did a pretty good job of it frankly. Before you throw the next rock you ought try to do it sometime. It isn't really that easy.
Both had periods where they had to do it hand to mouth without a lot of money.
Edited by simonlewisbooks, 31 May 2012 - 14:11.
Posted 31 May 2012 - 14:34
Hear hear!What we are doing is criticizing the overt re-writing of history to create something that never really existed.
Posted 31 May 2012 - 14:47
Hear hear!
Posted 31 May 2012 - 15:00
Couldn't see a thread for it, so heads up for this, back over the story of the Cobra and the late Carroll Shelby's '64 win at LeMans
Edited to correct date, that'll teach me for copying EPG
Posted 31 May 2012 - 18:55
Ferrari may have given up on the GT title for 1965 after having to get a race cancelled to be sure of winning in '64
Paul M
Posted 31 May 2012 - 20:11
Posted 31 May 2012 - 21:01
Shelby's involvement with the works Sunbeam Tiger engines might qualify as not so good a job - as Marcus Chambers certainly implied in his book, although the Coupe des Alpes win/exclusion over homologated valve sizes might be considered more down to Rootes Comps' admin rather than Shelby's?Both Enzo and Carroll were salesmen, promoters and brand builders. I think both of them did a pretty good job of it frankly. Before you throw the next rock you ought try to do it sometime. It isn't really that easy.
Posted 31 May 2012 - 21:57