54 replies to this topic

[scheivlak]

Perhaps a quote from someone who might know what was going on in 1964 is appropriate - Jean Guichet.

"All the cars (64 model GTOs) at Spa were factory cars lent to the distributors. The drivers, too - Parkes, myself, Bandini and Bianchi - we were team drivers and would take all the prize money and split it after the race."

"Ferrari did not wish to appear to compete against customers or to break strikes in Italy, so we had to look like a private team. Ferrari provided the car and the mechanics, but the driver had to make the entry to appear that the car was not entered by the factory."

I'm sorry to say but this just shows how clueless you seem to be.

The Spa 500 was a specific GT event, unlike e.g. the 1964 Le Mans 24 hours. Prototypes were not allowed.

It made some sense for Ferrari - who couldn't enter their prototypes to this specific race - to allow their works drivers to enter this race for affiliate teams like Maranello Concessionaires, Filipinetti etc. (just to be clear: none of them were individual private entries like your text seems to suggest). I can't imagine that there was much secrecy about that.

You can't prove by the specific 1964 Spa 500 GT championship entry that, say, the GTO entries at every event in 1964 or 1965 were works team based. Sometimes they were, far more often they were not, especially when they had to win the prototype battle in the first place.

[RCH]

Perhaps a quote from someone who might know what was going on in 1964 is appropriate - Jean Guichet.

"All the cars (64 model GTOs) at Spa were factory cars lent to the distributors. The drivers, too - Parkes, myself, Bandini and Bianchi - we were team drivers and would take all the prize money and split it after the race."

"Ferrari did not wish to appear to compete against customers or to break strikes in Italy, so we had to look like a private team. Ferrari provided the car and the mechanics, but the driver had to make the entry to appear that the car was not entered by the factory."

This does beg the question, who did the cars actually belong to? Parkes drove the Maranello Concessionaires car 4399 which is well known. It had belonged to MC since May '63, won the TT driven by Graham Hill, was rebodied in the '64 style and was sold to Mike Salmon for 1965. Guichet's car 4675 was again first sold in '63 to Fossati and Francolino who hill climbed it and crashed it in the TdeF after which it was rebodied in the '64 style. Was sold to Scuderia Elmo d'Argento and raced at Spa by Guichet and in the Targa Florio by Guichet and Facetti and then sold again. That does sound as though it was a "works" effort although entered by Fillipinetti at Spa and Scuderia St Ambroeus in the Targa. Bandini's car 5575 was a works car, the one which finished second at Nurburgring and then later sold to NART. It was entered by Fillipinetti at Spa. Bianchi's car 5573 was the Ecurie Francorchamps car. Were any of the "distributors" cars actually owned by them or just loaned by the works?

For some reason Ferrari does seem to have put a lot of effort into this race, take a look at Martin K's website it seems to have been particularly well supported and Ferrari made sure that there were 4 of the latest GTO/64 cars there. Was there good start money on offer?

It would seem that Ferrari was taking an interest in GT cars in '64 but only specific events.

Info from Jess Pouret's book, Ferrari 250GT.

Edited to correct the number of Bianchi's car.

Edited by RCH, 01 June 2012 - 19:56.

[David Wright]

It is an interesting question, who they actually belonged to. But then again in terms of the racing it arguably doesn't matter.

If we look at the racing history of 5573 in the 1964

Sebring - works entry
Spa - Filipinetti
Nurburgring - works entry
Le Mans - NART entry
Reims - NART entry
Freiburg Hillclimb (part of GT championship) - Scuderia Sant Ambroeus entry
Goodwood TT - NART entry

What I'm trying to say is if you're facing Surtees driving this car at Goodwood, or Scarfiotti driving this car at the Freiburg hillclimb, how important is the official entrant or who owns the car?

I'm sorry if the point of my earlier post wasn't clear. I'm not saying every GTO entry in 1964 (and certainly not 1965) was a works entry. Guichet does say the 64 model GTOs entered in theTarga Florio were really works entries with works mechanics and Dragoni present, but in general the concessionaires had their own mechanics. I still feel though that in terms of GT racing at least, in 1964 the concessionaires are semi-works teams. Mike Salmon, who worked for Maranello Concessionaires said ".. they went back (to Ferrari) after every race to be prepared for the next race. So the concessionaires were really a private offshoot of the Ferrari Factory."

[kayemod]

Mike Salmon, who worked for Maranello Concessionaires said ".. they went back (to Ferrari) after every race to be prepared for the next race. So the concessionaires were really a private offshoot of the Ferrari Factory."

Factory fettled maybe, but hardly ever current factory spec, sometimes not even close to it, so hardly a private offshoot of the Ferrari factory, are you sure that's what he meant?

[RCH]

It would seem that the level of factory involvement was greater in '64 than I had realised. However that still doesn't change the fact that GT racing was very much a third line effort for Ferrari after F1 and prototypes whereas the Cobra team was only involved with the GT championship.