Jump to content


Photo

Lotus 22 in Australia


  • Please log in to reply
56 replies to this topic

#1 austmcreg

austmcreg
  • Member

  • 316 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 31 May 2012 - 11:35

I have started this thread because I cannot find another dedicated to Lotus 22; I hope I have not missed one. The photo posted in the Mallory Park thread by Simon Lewis , and identified by Dale Harvey and Ray Bell as R.W.(Bob) Young at Warwick Farm in 1967
http://forums.autosp...w...&start=2680
may just have solved another mystery. In 1968, Tasmanian Brendan Tapp raced a green and white Lotus 22, with 1498 pushrod Ford engine. I have always wondered where it came from, as none of the Tasmanian press that I have seen identified its origin at the time (being the first and I think only 22 seen in Tasmania) and indeed it seems to have disappeared from the state by early 1969 when Tapp bought the 2.5 litre Wren Climax.

I remember one contemporary Tasmanian magazine report noted that the car had a Brabham rear engine cover, which I suspect can be seen in the Bob Young photo.

I have often wondered if this was the ex Geoghegan car (was this the only 22 in Australia?), and would be pleased to know its chassis number for my records. Does the car still live in Australia?

Rob Saward

Advertisement

#2 ellrosso

ellrosso
  • Member

  • 826 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 31 May 2012 - 12:26

Rob, from memory Brendan either bought it from or sold it to Werner Bekker - I can't remember which I'm afraid but I know Bekker was mentioned in connection to the car. It certainly wasn't advertised in Tassy or in RCN/Autosportsman at the time of its sale. I know Brendan went over to Sandown for the Tasman meeting in 1969 - he may have taken the Lotus over to sell and bring the Wren back at the same time. Bert Howard may have some info re this as they were "pit mates"
back then - always next to each other at Bask/Syms - in 1968 at least. I'll put a shot of the car on tomorrow - in both green and yellow/red stripe liveries.
Brendan was also running a Mini SRC car in 1968 - don't know what happened to that.

#3 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 54,083 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 31 May 2012 - 13:07

I don't see any sign of Bekker in race reports in '66 or '69...

Any further clues on this?

#4 john medley

john medley
  • Member

  • 1,167 posts
  • Joined: November 02

Posted 31 May 2012 - 22:29

The Brendan Tapp connection is correct, but the car is not a Lotus 22 . Brendan Tapp called it that, but it was, from memory, a Rennmax , last heard of 12 months ago in Southern Highlands NSW. More later, after more thought.

#5 ellrosso

ellrosso
  • Member

  • 826 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 31 May 2012 - 22:42

Well John, if it wasn't a Lotus he certainly went to a lot of trouble to make it look like one - Lotus badge on the steering wheel, nose, gearknob.... I used to spend a bit of time around their pit area as I was very keen on the Lola and it was a good spot to watch the cars at full speed on Shell Straight.


#6 ellrosso

ellrosso
  • Member

  • 826 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 01 June 2012 - 02:02

Shots of Tapp from 1968. I'll check my RCN's Ray, I know Bekker did race a Lotus 22 in Victoria.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#7 ellrosso

ellrosso
  • Member

  • 826 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 01 June 2012 - 03:17

Ray, I have Werner Bekker, Lotus 22 mentioned in RCN Feb '69 - Calder Jan 19th meeting, battling for 6th spot with Jon Davison in the opening round of the Lucas-Davison series (Garrie Cooper Elfin 600 winning from Quincey in his 600). Also at Phillip Island Easter Sunday meeting (RCN May '69) sharing the front row
with Maurie Quincey's Elfin 600. Ended up fighting with Peter Woodward's Lotus 47 for 4th spot.

#8 john medley

john medley
  • Member

  • 1,167 posts
  • Joined: November 02

Posted 01 June 2012 - 04:34

I think ex-owner David Doubtfire in Vic can probably explain that car as well as any, and I spoke to its most recent owner earlier this year, the car then living just north of Mittagong

#9 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 01 June 2012 - 05:24

I believe the car Bekker raced was 22/J/9, recently (if not now) with Gary Ryan

Allegedly via the Geoghegans, Peter Williamson and Bob Young to Peter Larner by 1968, then Bekker and back to Larner - did Bekker ever own it? John Hill in the early '70s and restored by John Sheppard in the '80s

#10 austmcreg

austmcreg
  • Member

  • 316 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 01 June 2012 - 08:52

Posted Image


Thanks to all for input so far. Looks like the Tapp car was more of a mystery than I ever imagined! The second photo shows Lotus badge and appears to have Lotus wobblyweb wheels at the front but other wheels shown in other photos. Ownership string listed by DM in previous post would tend, if correct to rule out Tapp in 1968. I dont understand why someone would try so hard to disguise a Renmax as a Lotus, unless it was built as a replacement chassis for a damaged Lotus? I understand there were Brabham replica Renmax chassis about.

Lindsay's colour photo of the Symmons Plains grid shows Tapp in green and white colours that it started out with, and which caused me to make a link with the Bob Young W-F photo. For reference, the earliest entry I have of Tapp with the car was Symmons Plains 4/2/68 and the last Symmons Plains 29/9/68, but this may not be complete as I am missing some Baskerville and Symmons programs from 1968. I suspect the grid photo is from 4/2/68.

Was there another 22 in Australia at the time that could be involved in this?

Rob Saward

#11 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 01 June 2012 - 09:21

"The" Geoghegan 22 actually had a 20 chassis number. They also ran 22-J-49 which, as it was later run by Gary Ryan, may be the same car as the one I've called 22-J-9 above

I believe one of the MRC cars was also known at the time as a Lotus 22

#12 BT 35-8

BT 35-8
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 01 June 2012 - 09:51

David ,

I will stand by my 22-J-49 as Leo's chassis number , invoiced to Derek Jolly 3rd. August 1962 .

There was only ever one Lotus 22 in Australia in period , 20-J-965 was altered and became a '' Lotus 31''
a few of the Lotus 20s had a Rennmax conversion kit fitted which turned them into Lotus 22 spec. i.e. 13.0''
rear wheels and top camber link at rear and non fixed length drive shafts and wider wheels etc. as time progressed.
Two cars spring to mind in the car of the late Wally Mitchell which was on Dick White composite 13.0''wheels prior end 1965
and the Hans Tholstrup car that went to Noel Barnes in Tamworth .

Britto and I went through the Lotus 22 spec. cars years ago and came up with 7 off.

The first photo posted appears to have the car on black painted Lotus wobblies on front , second photo of car standing
Lotus wobblies are now light colour painted , 3rd photo shows fronts as Brabham with perhaps composite rears , engine
cover looks like a Brabham BT14.

Certainly looks like Lotus 20 cockpit body section as you can discern the slight '' flats'' each side of radiator opening.

The Werner Bekker car was a Lotus 18 that started life at Russell Racing drivers school , thence to Birchwood driving school in Victoria then to
Werner Bekker , then to Dave Withall then to Ross Gordon 4/12/1968 modified and called a '' Dolphin'' sold 17-2-1973
and has never been seen since.

Bryan Miller.


#13 Team Result

Team Result
  • Member

  • 208 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 01 June 2012 - 10:12

"The" Geoghegan 22 actually had a 20 chassis number. They also ran 22-J-49 which, as it was later run by Gary Ryan, may be the same car as the one I've called 22-J-9 above

I believe one of the MRC cars was also known at the time as a Lotus 22


Yes, David I can confirm that. When I saw the title of this thread, I immediately thought of Queenslander, Malcolm Aldred's 'Lotus 22'. IIRC, it was usually entered under Lionel Ayers' MRC team name and painted the same colours as his 'Lotus 23B', which Lionel ran as an MRC-Ford. As Ray has previously explained, all the MRC's were built by Bob Britton (Rennmax).

Also, Rennmaxs are mentioned here:
http://forums.autosp...w...t=0&start=0

Edited by Team Result, 01 June 2012 - 10:16.


#14 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 4,907 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 01 June 2012 - 10:13

The Brendan Tapp car is shown on my Rennmax BN1 page as it is/was believed by David Doubtfire to be the ex-Laurie Ellis Rennmax which Ellis (and Des Gay) had raced as a Lotus in 1963/64. However, Laurie Ellis may have had more than one Rennmax and it's possible that David didn't allow for this possibility when researching his car's history.


#15 BT 35-8

BT 35-8
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 01 June 2012 - 10:21

Allen,

Laurie didn't have more than one Rennmax and just to spoil the plot Laurie still owns his car
and has been talking to me about historic papers for same quite recently.

Just read the scenario on ORC , Laurie may have helped in the Tapp car , and when I state above '' still owns
I should amend to re-owns and has for many years .

Bryan.

Edited by BT 35-8, 01 June 2012 - 10:25.


#16 austmcreg

austmcreg
  • Member

  • 316 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 01 June 2012 - 11:04

Interesting that little of this agrees exactly with what Blanden wrote in Historic Racing Cars in Australia, but then that should not surprise me knowing something of some fairly major clangers in other parts of the book. Apart from the two different chassis numbers attributed to this car (22-J-9 and 22-J-49), the Blanden history given for the Geoghegan car agrees with that quoted here, now with Gary Ryan.

I accept it likely that my initial reaction that the Bob Young car must be the Tapp car, cannot be correct.

The other '22' in Blanden (also a Geoghegan car) carries a 20 chassis number (??) as mentioned here and the third came to Australia in relatively recent times.

So where are we with the Tapp car's identity, which was/is my interest when I started this thread? It seems clear it cannot be one of the Geoghegan cars. It also seems likely it was not a Lotus at all, and that the Laurie Ellis Rennmax sounds the most likely, especially if it was raced as a Lotus in 1963-64; Bryan mentions that Laurie has had the car for a while now after a gap in his ownership - when was that gap? Did it include 1968?

Rob Saward

Edited by austmcreg, 01 June 2012 - 11:07.


#17 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 54,083 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 01 June 2012 - 12:01

I would have reckoned that there was only one Geoghegan 22...

There was a 20B as well, which ran with a 1475 (IIRC) cc engine, often (if not always) driven by Pete.

It's interesting that Britto did an 'update kit' for the 20s as there was a few of those around. That might account for the lack of 22 sales prospects, as people in Australia weren't used to getting a new car each year.

The earliest Rennmax Lotus copies had a very different looking body, the outstanding one I recall having been raced by Kingsley Hibbard.

#18 austmcreg

austmcreg
  • Member

  • 316 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 01 June 2012 - 12:39

Seeing as this thread is turning into the 'Lotus 22 and copy' thread, I will take it slightly further in that direction.

I have been advised that there was a Lotus copy built by Victorian Ted Whiteford, raced as a Lotus 22 by Ron Hodgson in the 1960s, and currently in Queensland where it is identified as a Whiteford. Whiteford had earlier (c1958) built a Vincent-engined Whiteford which was Tasmanian owned for about 4 years, but now disappeared.

Does anyone know anything about Ted Whiteford and his Lotus-copy chassis building activities? Was the Hodgson car the only one? Are there any other Lotus copies out there?

Rob Saward

#19 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 54,083 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 01 June 2012 - 12:50

I have a notion there is something in the back of my mind about Hoddo driving an open-wheeler...

But I can't bring it to the surface. If he did, it certainly wasn't for very long.

Advertisement

#20 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 4,907 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 01 June 2012 - 14:35

Allen,

Laurie didn't have more than one Rennmax and just to spoil the plot Laurie still owns his car
and has been talking to me about historic papers for same quite recently.

Just read the scenario on ORC , Laurie may have helped in the Tapp car , and when I state above '' still owns
I should amend to re-owns and has for many years .

Bryan.


This is very curious Bryan - we now have three "ex-Ellis" cars here. Kevin Davis has just confirmed to me that he still has his "ex-Laurie Ellis Rennmax" and hopes to have it finished this year and David Doubtfire had his "ex-Laurie Ellis Rennmax/Lotus" four years ago so can't be the one Laurie has owned "for many years" either. Kevin told me that his information had been confirmed by Laurie Ellis and David told me that he had a letter from each owner confirming the chain of ownership. So I am baffled.

Laurie is the key to this. Is anyone in a position to ask him about the car he has today and how it relates to the car he sold to Ivor Valentine in 1969 and the car he sold to Brendan Tapp in 1968?

#21 BT 35-8

BT 35-8
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 01 June 2012 - 21:08

I give up, all I can think is Laurie Ellis is talking on behalf of Kevin Davis , unless I have been talking
to Kevin Davis and have had a brain fade .

Bryan.

#22 Dale Harvey

Dale Harvey
  • Member

  • 276 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 02 June 2012 - 00:17

Seeing as this thread is turning into the 'Lotus 22 and copy' thread, I will take it slightly further in that direction.

I have been advised that there was a Lotus copy built by Victorian Ted Whiteford, raced as a Lotus 22 by Ron Hodgson in the 1960s, and currently in Queensland where it is identified as a Whiteford. Whiteford had earlier (c1958) built a Vincent-engined Whiteford which was Tasmanian owned for about 4 years, but now disappeared.

Does anyone know anything about Ted Whiteford and his Lotus-copy chassis building activities? Was the Hodgson car the only one? Are there any other Lotus copies out there?

Rob Saward


The car in Queensland is known as The Whitford Special (not Whiteford) with 1961 shown as it's year of construction. Currently owned and driven by Alison Frech. It does have body that looks like the Lotus22.
Dale.

#23 Catalina Park

Catalina Park
  • Member

  • 5,729 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 02 June 2012 - 00:23

About Lotus copies, I was told a story back in the early 80's about my MJM Roadrunner Formula Vee. I can't recall who it was that told the story but it went along the lines of Geoghegans dropped their Lotus 20 off at Maurie Miller's place to get something done to the car, while it was there Maurie took a lot of measurements of the chassis and took moulds off the body and he later used this as the basis of the MJM Vee.

The body of the MJM is very Lotus 20 in style with a couple of humps added to fit the Vee stuff in. The chassis is sort of a Lotus inspired around the dash bulkhead to the firewall behind the drivers seat.

Did anyone here know Maurie or know if he knew Britto?

#24 ellrosso

ellrosso
  • Member

  • 826 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 02 June 2012 - 02:23

Rob, I'm wondering if it might be worth contacting Brian Bowe re this? Bob Wright always said that Brian was a good source of info re Tassy racing. I know he's a Northerner like yourself and Brendan was "Down South" but he could be worth a go. As would Bert Howard. As I mentioned before they were quite matey at that time - Brendan actually had the Monza Holden for sale at his Pitstop Motors car yard (Moonah) in I think either late '68, early '69. My brother and I called in and had a look at it on the way back from Max Stephens Motors. We had a good chat to Brendan at the time (wish I had have asked him some questions about the Lotus 22/Rennmax or whatever it is!).
I actually did a big search for Bob Hamilton about 5 years ago, trying to track Brendan down, as Bob thought he had the remains of the Brenman Special.
Finally got onto one of his relatives who thought he had passed away,(his brother Maurice has definitely passed on) but I don't think that is the case as I heard just last year that someone had been in contact with him. Maybe Randall Langdon?
This is turning into a real mystery car....

#25 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 54,083 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:06

What about Lyn?

He would have known what was going on in that era, wouldn't he?

#26 austmcreg

austmcreg
  • Member

  • 316 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:38

Lindsay, Ray, There have been recent attempts to locate Brendan (by others, who have current links to his former cars, but not the 'Lotus') , but without success. Several leads have dried up. I asked Lyn about this car and others some years ago, and he had no knowledge of origins. To him it was a Lotus.

#27 ellrosso

ellrosso
  • Member

  • 826 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 02 June 2012 - 12:04

No, Lyn would have been moving in different circles to the Tapps back then. I tried to find Brendan's son (Michael?) without success - he would be in his late 40's now I'd imagine. If you could locate him you might have some success getting Brendan. I will give David Keep a call next week - he used to know them pretty well back then - crossed swords with them at Richmond Speedway I recall, which could have gotten ugly - Brendan was a very capable boxer back then....


#28 Dick Willis

Dick Willis
  • Member

  • 798 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 02 June 2012 - 21:42

This is very curious Bryan - we now have three "ex-Ellis" cars here. Kevin Davis has just confirmed to me that he still has his "ex-Laurie Ellis Rennmax" and hopes to have it finished this year and David Doubtfire had his "ex-Laurie Ellis Rennmax/Lotus" four years ago so can't be the one Laurie has owned "for many years" either. Kevin told me that his information had been confirmed by Laurie Ellis and David told me that he had a letter from each owner confirming the chain of ownership. So I am baffled.

Laurie is the key to this. Is anyone in a position to ask him about the car he has today and how it relates to the car he sold to Ivor Valentine in 1969 and the car he sold to Brendan Tapp in 1968?


Ron Woodbridge is entered at Lakeside next weekend in a BN1, I will try to get someone who is going there to find out which car it is. Likewise if Laurie Ellis is there I will try to find out where to contact him but he will probably be at Morgan Park next month with his Welsor so I may be able to unravel the BN1 mystery a bit more then.

#29 john medley

john medley
  • Member

  • 1,167 posts
  • Joined: November 02

Posted 02 June 2012 - 22:18

Dick
Or you and I could go to next Wednesday's GEAR Club meeting at Wakefield Park and talk to the current owner(whose name still escapes me)... and I have John Valentin's contact details somewhere...

I attended the presale inspection of your original Milano two days ago

#30 GMACKIE

GMACKIE
  • Member

  • 1,775 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 02 June 2012 - 23:42

GEAR meeting is Wednesday week [13th], John.

#31 GMACKIE

GMACKIE
  • Member

  • 1,775 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 03 June 2012 - 00:15

The memory has been jogged. Wasn't there a Lotus 22 FJ, driven by John Eagar in Historics - mid '80s? He ran into the back of my Jolus FJ at Amaroo.....I was not amused.

#32 BT 35-8

BT 35-8
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 03 June 2012 - 01:31

That is 22-FL-7 , after John Eagar thence to Bruce Mansell who retains , that is the car bought in
from the USA circa 1980 and also driven a few times by dear old departed Paul Collins.

#33 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 54,083 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 03 June 2012 - 09:57

Ex-Seppi, was it not?

Lovely little car with a lithe history...

#34 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 03 June 2012 - 10:49

There's some question (in my mind at least) whether it's ex-Siffert or ex-Raby. The chassis number's 'L' rather than the usual 'J' suggests it was intended for libre racing, which leads me to tend towards the Raby option

#35 ed holly

ed holly
  • Member

  • 198 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 03 June 2012 - 22:51

Here are a couple of photos from Bob Young of his 22. He is going to track down the chassis number whether it was -9 or -49 although looking at the Australian Gold Star Series website the car is listed as chassis 22-J-9

He first ran it at the 1966 Horden Trophy race at Warwick Farm where he was hit by a spinning car on the Northern Crossing and had the nose cone damaged removing a radiator hose. It took 7 laps to get going again with the help of the caretaker at Homestead Corner, something Geoff Sykes found very amusing apparently, as the caretaker there wasn't in the least fussed about motor racing! Bob ran the car at this meeting green, but Archie White soon convinced him it should be red in keeping with Shell colours, and after this meeting that is the way it was, red not green.

At the Tasman meeting in Feb 67, Bob was given the entry number of 23. There is a story behind this too - the grid density was 22 for the track, so that meant no more than 22 starters for the International event. The next number in line then was 23 - or another way of looking at it - No.1for the next grid, which Geoff Sykes arranged for Bob .. And sure enough Bob did win this race, the only Shell sponsored winner that day. And as these photos show Bob kept the No.23 where he could.

Bob's car was always 1475cc not 1498cc as it was a 3 bearing engine bored out, not a 1500 3 bearing type. In the Blanden book the car shows it went from Geoghegan's to Williamson to Young, but Bob says this is incorrect - Bob Salter briefly owned the car in between Williamson and himself and Bob recalls Salter drove it once.

The car as pictured on the other TNF thread above is not Bob Young. The car never had bodywork like in that photo, retaining its normal Lotus 22 bodywork as can be seen in the photos here.

Posted Image

Photo of Bob Young at Oran Park for the start of the WD & HO Wills race which Bob won showing Young on pole with Alan Grice centre, and unsure who was other car on front row. Bob still has the trophy a Rolls Royce Silver Lady on a very nice plinthe.

Posted Image

Photo of Bob during the race.

Posted Image

This photo is of Gary Ryan in the car taken by Bill Clifton.


#36 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 54,083 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 04 June 2012 - 11:54

Good Catalina pics there, Ed... and good information...

So now we are in a dilemma to know what the original car photographed on the previous page was.

#37 austmcreg

austmcreg
  • Member

  • 316 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 04 June 2012 - 12:24

Good Catalina pics there, Ed... and good information...
So now we are in a dilemma to know what the original car photographed on the previous page was.

Indeed, and time to re-post the photo that caused me to start this thread and the one I am trying to get information on (the Tapp car). I hope Simon and Lindsay dont mind. First thing I notice are the two blisters on the sides of the nosecone - they are on both cars. the tail panel bulge over the Webers looks the same, and generally speaking the two cars appear to be twins. I reckon we are back where we started. It seems that neither car is a Lotus, but I reckon there is a fair chance they are the same car, or at least they came from the same place and same body moulds. So who is #23 at Warwick Farm if it is not Bob Young?
Rob Saward
Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

#38 ellrosso

ellrosso
  • Member

  • 826 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 04 June 2012 - 20:42

I must say Rob, I do find it bizarre that back in 1968, when both were outdated racing cars, that you would go to the trouble of putting Lotus badges, genuine Lotus steering wheel etc onto a Rennmax and enter it at every meeting you race at, as a Lotus 22! Maybe it was a case of "buyer beware" though.
At least the Lotus 32B of the Sternbergs was the real McCoy.......

#39 GreenMachine

GreenMachine
  • Member

  • 791 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 04 June 2012 - 22:57

It may be just distortion brought about by the different angle of the photos, but the fairing over the front suspension inboard pickup looks different.

Advertisement

#40 RonPohl

RonPohl
  • Member

  • 125 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 04 June 2012 - 23:12

Does anyone know how many lotus 22 s were built? It seems to me that it was the prototype for the lotus 31, 51 and 61. I never looked at a 41 in detail so I am not sure how close it is to the 22.

#41 BT 35-8

BT 35-8
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 05 June 2012 - 00:33

If the photo dating is wrong and the race meeting is 1967 not 1968 as advised ,
Then we have at the 32nd Australian Grand Prix , Feb. 19th 1967 , event 7 which
was the racing car race for the cars/drivers who did not get a start in the AGP itself
10 laps , 22.5 miles , R.Young , Lotus 22 Ford , 1475cc , Green.


#42 RonPohl

RonPohl
  • Member

  • 125 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 05 June 2012 - 02:40

Does anyone know how many lotus 22 s were built? It seems to me that it was the prototype for the lotus 31, 51 and 61. I never looked at a 41 in detail so I am not sure how close it is to the 22.

Answering my own question (ok, so I am talking to myself) it looks like 77 lotus 22s were produced before being replaced by the lotus 27 in 1963.

#43 Paul Hamilton

Paul Hamilton
  • Member

  • 303 posts
  • Joined: February 04

Posted 05 June 2012 - 03:29

If the photo dating is wrong and the race meeting is 1967 not 1968 as advised ,
Then we have at the 32nd Australian Grand Prix , Feb. 19th 1967 , event 7 which
was the racing car race for the cars/drivers who did not get a start in the AGP itself
10 laps , 22.5 miles , R.Young , Lotus 22 Ford , 1475cc , Green.


Bryan, the photo was identified as 1967 at the very start of this thread buit it would now appear that either the location or date may be wrong. As you have confirmed, car no. 23 at the 1967 AGP meeting was Bob Young's Lotus 22 but the photos Ed has posted of that car show several differences from that in the original photo. Bob's 22 did not have the blisters on each side of the nose or the bulge over the carburettors which feature in the original photo so I suspect that photo may be of another car at another time and place.

The carburettor bulge is particularly interesting as, assuming the car had a pushrod Ford engine, the bulge would imply that the engine was mounted upright in that car. The Lotus 22, however, had the engine canted over on its side which usually allowed the carburettors on a pushrod engine to be wholly within the rear body panel as is evident in Ed's photos. It therefore appears to me that the original photo may not be a Lotus 22 at all.

#44 BT 35-8

BT 35-8
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 05 June 2012 - 07:24

Paul, I agree re. engine installation , the other telling feature as pointed out previously
is that the car appears to be on 15.0'' rears .

For the non type people ,

Lotus 20 s had 13.0'' diameter fronts and 15.0'' rears , no rear camber link as the driveshaft
was the camber link and inboard drums against the gearbox whether Renault or VW.

Lotus 22 s were 13.0'' all round , totally different rear upright incorporating outboard disc in the
normal form and a rear anti-roll bar .

Bryan Miller.

#45 Catalina Park

Catalina Park
  • Member

  • 5,729 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 05 June 2012 - 07:44

Good Catalina pics there, Ed...

Catalina?


#46 austmcreg

austmcreg
  • Member

  • 316 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 05 June 2012 - 07:45

Bryan, the photo was identified as 1967 at the very start of this thread buit it would now appear that either the location or date may be wrong. As you have confirmed, car no. 23 at the 1967 AGP meeting was Bob Young's Lotus 22 but the photos Ed has posted of that car show several differences from that in the original photo. Bob's 22 did not have the blisters on each side of the nose or the bulge over the carburettors which feature in the original photo so I suspect that photo may be of another car at another time and place.

The carburettor bulge is particularly interesting as, assuming the car had a pushrod Ford engine, the bulge would imply that the engine was mounted upright in that car. The Lotus 22, however, had the engine canted over on its side which usually allowed the carburettors on a pushrod engine to be wholly within the rear body panel as is evident in Ed's photos. It therefore appears to me that the original photo may not be a Lotus 22 at all.

Agree with all that. I think we have established that it is unlikely to be a Lotus (despite the badges on the Tapp car). So back to the original, B&W photo. I have tried playing with the photo so see if #23 is a sure thing - definitely 3 as second digit but I cannot be sure the first is a 2 (though that would be my guess). It certainly looks like a Warwick Farm background, but could it be anywhere else? Are those with W-F programs 1965-67 able to check if there were any other cars with #3 as a second digit?

If the (B&W photo) car did become the Tapp car, it was in Tasmania by at least February 1968, painted dark green with white stripe, looking very similar to the B&W photo.

Rob Saward

#47 Glenn Moulds

Glenn Moulds
  • New Member

  • 26 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 05 June 2012 - 08:16

Agree with all that. I think we have established that it is unlikely to be a Lotus (despite the badges on the Tapp car). So back to the original, B&W photo. I have tried playing with the photo so see if #23 is a sure thing - definitely 3 as second digit but I cannot be sure the first is a 2 (though that would be my guess). It certainly looks like a Warwick Farm background, but could it be anywhere else? Are those with W-F programs 1965-67 able to check if there were any other cars with #3 as a second digit?

If the (B&W photo) car did become the Tapp car, it was in Tasmania by at least February 1968, painted dark green with white stripe, looking very similar to the B&W photo.

Rob Saward


Not sure if this helps (or adds to the confusion!) but entered at the Warwick Farm meeting of 16 July 1967, event 3 Racing Car Trophy Race was #23 Entrant AMRD, Driver I Jenkins, Lotus 20 Ford 1098cc Blue/White. His team mate, entered in a Rennmax, was R Salter if that's any help.

#48 BT 35-8

BT 35-8
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 05 June 2012 - 09:06

Ed Holly's post # 23 , I don't like mysteries .

Surely must be front row of grid for 7th May 1967 .

# 12 , Alan Grice in the lovely little Elfin Mono with 1100cc Holbay downdraft .
# 23 , Bob Young , Lotus 1475cc .
# 16 , AMRD / M.Preece, / I. Jenkins , Renmax 1500cc [ Their spelling]

Bryan Miller.

#49 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 54,083 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:21

Originally posted by Catalina Park
Catalina?


You're right, he even identified them as Oran Park... I hadn't seen that...

Originally posted by Ed Holly

Posted Image

Photo of Bob Young at Oran Park for the start of the WD & HO Wills race which Bob won showing Young on pole with Alan Grice centre, and unsure who was other car on front row. Bob still has the trophy a Rolls Royce Silver Lady on a very nice plinthe.

Posted Image


The 'W D & H O Wills' bit threw me, also the timber fence alongside the grid, but I had looked hard at the lights hanging overhead too. Just dumb, I guess.

Just for the unitiated, 'AMRD' was Bob Salter's 'Racing Drivers School'... Australian Motor Racing Developments. They had an 18 as well, and I'm sure they had a 20 or 20B.

Edited by Ray Bell, 05 June 2012 - 10:21.


#50 Paul Hamilton

Paul Hamilton
  • Member

  • 303 posts
  • Joined: February 04

Posted 05 June 2012 - 11:12

Not sure if this helps (or adds to the confusion!) but entered at the Warwick Farm meeting of 16 July 1967, event 3 Racing Car Trophy Race was #23 Entrant AMRD, Driver I Jenkins, Lotus 20 Ford 1098cc Blue/White. His team mate, entered in a Rennmax, was R Salter if that's any help.


That certainly does help as it probably confirms that the original photo was taken at the July '67 Warwick Farm meeting and shows Ian Jenkins in the AMRD Lotus 20 rather than a 22. The photo background is consistent with the 'farm (horserails etc.), the competition number (23) is correct and the car has several features (rear wheels and engine location) which distinguish it from a 22. It does appear to have a 22 style top rear link but that was a pretty common update on Lotus 20s.