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McLaren MP4-27 Part II


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#1 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 11:54

Continuation of the discussion of the McLaren MP4-27. Previous thread: http://forums.autosp...howtopic=166330

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#2 maverick69

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 11:55

To slot or not to slot?

#3 enrm6

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 12:29

To slot or not to slot?


That is the question.

They'll be investigating them, almost certainly.

#4 maverick69

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 12:32

That is the question.

They'll be investigating them, almost certainly.


It's not only what you can do in front of the wheels - but like I said in another thread: Quite simply, if it remains legal, then you have the scope to "install" a "sideslot" DDD...........

#5 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 13:05

Interesting....


Posted Image

Rest of the quote is: "causing him to make poor set up choices"

via this weeks AutoSport Magazine

#6 Markn93

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 13:09

Indeed it is interesting. Any mention of what trickery it might be? If not, any guesses?

#7 maverick69

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 13:09

Interesting....


Posted Image

Rest of the quote is: "causing him to make poor set up choices"

via this weeks AutoSport Magazine


Hmmmm.....

What the bloody hell could that be?!

#8 karlth

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 13:11

Hmmmm.....

What the bloody hell could that be?!


Probably the transponder. It seems to run faster than Hamilton's.


#9 maverick69

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 13:16

Probably the transponder. It seems to run faster than Hamilton's.


:lol:

#10 PNSD

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 13:35

Interesting....


Posted Image

Rest of the quote is: "causing him to make poor set up choices"

via this weeks AutoSport Magazine


Certainly interesting.

It's fair to say that only in two races this year has he felt comfortable, and only in one of them was he quicker than Lewis. In the other 5 races he has arguably been slower.

It is a long championship, and hopefully Mclaren and Jenson can understand the problem more appropriately. I still vouch that if Mclaren can get the car to work for Jenson we will consistently see performances like the back end of 2011 and of course Australia this year. Sensitivity might be his downfall (also advantage in wet!) but it's not upto him to change his style, it's for the team to make the car work for him.

#11 alframsey

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 13:39

Certainly interesting.

It's fair to say that only in two races this year has he felt comfortable, and only in one of them was he quicker than Lewis. In the other 5 races he has arguably been slower.

It is a long championship, and hopefully Mclaren and Jenson can understand the problem more appropriately. I still vouch that if Mclaren can get the car to work for Jenson we will consistently see performances like the back end of 2011 and of course Australia this year. Sensitivity might be his downfall (also advantage in wet!) but it's not upto him to change his style, it's for the team to make the car work for him.

Arguably? I think its clear for all to see Jenson has been slower in all but one race this season, not good for McLarens WCC hopes....

#12 Crafty

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 13:46

so I wonder what the electrickery is controlling? Can't be aero, can't be engine/gearbox as you wouldn't need an extra box.
Maybe a diff controller ?
Is all electronic control of suspension banned ? e.g. could you have something that controls damping rates ?
Variable power steering ?

Edited by Crafty, 01 June 2012 - 13:47.


#13 PNSD

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 13:49

Arguably? I think its clear for all to see Jenson has been slower in all but one race this season, not good for McLarens WCC hopes....


Ah, but as I say it is Mclaren's job to fix that.

As a team, as a constructor their job is to not only produce the quickest car, but also do it so that the drivers can drive it. Both of them. If Button has had set up issues with the car, then you can only lay the fault at Mclaren. Button is a proven winner, proven WDC so if he is not winning/leading races due to car issues then that is only Mclaren's fault. Their job is to provide a car for both drivers and frankly they haven't done that.... for either driver!

#14 robefc

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 13:54

Arguably? I think its clear for all to see Jenson has been slower in all but one race this season, not good for McLarens WCC hopes....


china?

#15 alframsey

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 14:02

china?

Okay I conveniently forgot about that...

#16 werks prototype

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 14:08

so I wonder what the electrickery is controlling? Can't be aero, can't be engine/gearbox as you wouldn't need an extra box.
Maybe a diff controller ?
Is all electronic control of suspension banned ? e.g. could you have something that controls damping rates ?
Variable power steering ?


I'd go for steering related.

#17 jrg19

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 14:51

http://f1zoom.co.cc/...o...3379&full=1

Anyone know why McLaren would have the Red T cam on Lewis car on route to the grid in Monaco?

#18 Crafty

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 15:00

Coloured stickers are normally used for car identification. Given the tight confines of the circuit and surroundings maybe something highly visible on the camera made life easy.

#19 jrg19

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 15:11

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/100041

Jenson to make qualifying priority in Canada.

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#20 maverick69

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 16:03

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/100041

Jenson to make qualifying priority in Canada.


So given this issue..... and the apparent "gizmo" issue - why not take part in the Mugello test JB?....... because it's hardly to be a new thing is it...........

#21 PNSD

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 16:56

Mclaren had other plans for Mugello testing.

The ongoing performance issue of correlation, and confirmation. Mclaren used the test to test what they could not on race weekends.

Marverick are you finding fault at Mclaren, or Jenson?

#22 maverick69

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 17:01

Mclaren had other plans for Mugello testing.

The ongoing performance issue of correlation, and confirmation. Mclaren used the test to test what they could not on race weekends.

Marverick are you finding fault at Mclaren, or Jenson?


Both.

JB is clearly having a driver preference issue that is obviously not new. He should have kicked up all sorts of shat to get it sorted (he may well have TBH.... who knows). But McLaren and their rigid way of going about things may have hampered him.

Turns out that The Brat may well have had a point.......

Edited by D.M.N., 02 June 2012 - 10:49.
okay, maybe not.


#23 mlsnoopy

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 18:07

Ah, but as I say it is Mclaren's job to fix that.

As a team, as a constructor their job is to not only produce the quickest car, but also do it so that the drivers can drive it. Both of them. If Button has had set up issues with the car, then you can only lay the fault at Mclaren. Button is a proven winner, proven WDC so if he is not winning/leading races due to car issues then that is only Mclaren's fault. Their job is to provide a car for both drivers and frankly they haven't done that.... for either driver!


What are you talking about? Lewis is showing that the car can go fast. If Button can't make it go fast that is his problem. Now if the team does something that helps Button but in the process the car becomes slower that would be wrong. It's the job of the driver to get everything out of the car, it's not the job of the car to get everything out of the driver.

#24 Pudu

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 18:11

What are you talking about? Lewis is showing that the car can go fast. If Button can't make it go fast that is his problem. Now if the team does something that helps Button but in the process the car becomes slower that would be wrong. It's the job of the driver to get everything out of the car, it's not the job of the car to get everything out of the driver.



Case in point - Webber 2011

#25 PNSD

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 18:48

What are you talking about? Lewis is showing that the car can go fast. If Button can't make it go fast that is his problem. Now if the team does something that helps Button but in the process the car becomes slower that would be wrong. It's the job of the driver to get everything out of the car, it's not the job of the car to get everything out of the driver.


You are missing the point.

Why would the team develop the car in such a way that would make it slower? The team add performance, but performance can not sometimes just be bolted on. Sometimes to use that performance you have to alter other things to allow the driver feel what performance he does have. The team's job is to make the car comfortable enough for a driver to push to HIS limits (Lewis might have different boundaries to Jenson!)...

OR

Is it Kimi's fault that Lotus had to change the power steering setup during winter, and even Monaco?

If Jenson can not go as quick (do not use the word fast please) as Lewis because of the car, or he feels he is unable to get the max out of it, then it is Mclarens job to fix that. That is a fact, a simple fact.

IF however Jenson is happy with the car yet is half a second behind Lewis (it's happened on numerous occasions) then it is Jenson's fault and he usually admit's to that.

Clearly Jenson has struggled with setup relating to his sensitivity of what the car is doing. More likely meaning does not like how the car react's under certain conditions. It is therefore the team's job to alter HOW he feels that reaction, because that reaction is a product of inherent performance, or added performance.

The evidence is there to see..

Give Jenson a car he can push with, give him a car he can feel performance with, give him a car he can understand the reaction with and he will deliver results. Jenson has always been a driver who relies on what he feels, and it just so happens he probably feels a lot more than many other current drivers. His time with Rubens taught him to understand what he was feeling, and taught him how to set up a car with that knowledge.

#26 pingu666

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 18:56

my hunch would be differential

#27 Peter Perfect

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 19:22

Indeed it is interesting. Any mention of what trickery it might be? If not, any guesses?


My money is on a flux capacitor running at 1.21 gigawatts.

#28 Obi Offiah

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 19:27

My money is on a flux capacitor running at 1.21 gigawatts.

My sources tell me 2.21 gigawatts. There have been significant advancements.

#29 olliek88

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 19:27

My money is on a flux capacitor running at 1.21 gigawatts.


The question is, are they using a Mr. Fusion Home Energy Reactor to generate the power? It would fit in with the new, green approach of Formula One. Although i think Mclaren are missing with a few banana skins.  ;)

#30 River

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 21:31

My money is on a flux capacitor running at 1.21 gigawatts.

Unfortunately it wouldn't work, once they hit 88mph, they'd just disappear into the past/future!

Edited by River, 01 June 2012 - 21:31.


#31 peroa

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 05:40

You are missing the point.

Why would the team develop the car in such a way that would make it slower? The team add performance, but performance can not sometimes just be bolted on. Sometimes to use that performance you have to alter other things to allow the driver feel what performance he does have. The team's job is to make the car comfortable enough for a driver to push to HIS limits (Lewis might have different boundaries to Jenson!)...

OR

Is it Kimi's fault that Lotus had to change the power steering setup during winter, and even Monaco?

If Jenson can not go as quick (do not use the word fast please) as Lewis because of the car, or he feels he is unable to get the max out of it, then it is Mclarens job to fix that. That is a fact, a simple fact.

IF however Jenson is happy with the car yet is half a second behind Lewis (it's happened on numerous occasions) then it is Jenson's fault and he usually admit's to that.

Clearly Jenson has struggled with setup relating to his sensitivity of what the car is doing. More likely meaning does not like how the car react's under certain conditions. It is therefore the team's job to alter HOW he feels that reaction, because that reaction is a product of inherent performance, or added performance.

The evidence is there to see..

Give Jenson a car he can push with, give him a car he can feel performance with, give him a car he can understand the reaction with and he will deliver results. Jenson has always been a driver who relies on what he feels, and it just so happens he probably feels a lot more than many other current drivers. His time with Rubens taught him to understand what he was feeling, and taught him how to set up a car with that knowledge.

The problem is that most of the time a driver in his career won't get such a perfect car to work with.

#32 argiriano

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 06:14

MP4-27 will be bloody fast around Gilles Villeneuve circuit in Q, but the tyres will be much more of a deciding factor in that race than the previous races so I think even if Lewis is able to snatch the pole he will be passed in the race, because McLaren dosent have any closer tyre management to Lotus, RBR and Ferrari... even Sauber and Williams is better than us in that respect. That`s the resaon for slower race pace for me, nothing else. MP4-27 dosen`t lost it`s speed which is shown by 5 front rows this season, it`s just tyres nursing mode that hurts it`s race pace.

#33 Wifey

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 09:33

MP4-27 will be bloody fast around Gilles Villeneuve circuit in Q, but the tyres will be much more of a deciding factor in that race than the previous races so I think even if Lewis is able to snatch the pole he will be passed in the race, because McLaren dosent have any closer tyre management to Lotus, RBR and Ferrari... even Sauber and Williams is better than us in that respect. That`s the resaon for slower race pace for me, nothing else. MP4-27 dosen`t lost it`s speed which is shown by 5 front rows this season, it`s just tyres nursing mode that hurts it`s race pace.



yet in Spain it appeared they had the best tyre deg of everyone! and that is the problem with these tyres if you get them in the right zone you will more then likly end up winning!

#34 KOMORI

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 09:42

The question is, are they using a Mr. Fusion Home Energy Reactor to generate the power? It would fit in with the new, green approach of Formula One. Although i think Mclaren are missing with a few banana skins.  ;)


As long as they don't waste bacon lol :)

#35 Crafty

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 09:45

Ok, so I've been pondering this electrickery device that JB is concerned about. If its been fitted all season and is causing JB to have feedback problems, how come it wasn't a problem in Australia ?

If this device has caused the loss of feeling/confidence in the car so dramatically something must of changed since then.

#36 robefc

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 09:52

You are missing the point.

Why would the team develop the car in such a way that would make it slower? The team add performance, but performance can not sometimes just be bolted on. Sometimes to use that performance you have to alter other things to allow the driver feel what performance he does have. The team's job is to make the car comfortable enough for a driver to push to HIS limits (Lewis might have different boundaries to Jenson!)...

OR

Is it Kimi's fault that Lotus had to change the power steering setup during winter, and even Monaco?

If Jenson can not go as quick (do not use the word fast please) as Lewis because of the car, or he feels he is unable to get the max out of it, then it is Mclarens job to fix that. That is a fact, a simple fact.

IF however Jenson is happy with the car yet is half a second behind Lewis (it's happened on numerous occasions) then it is Jenson's fault and he usually admit's to that.

Clearly Jenson has struggled with setup relating to his sensitivity of what the car is doing. More likely meaning does not like how the car react's under certain conditions. It is therefore the team's job to alter HOW he feels that reaction, because that reaction is a product of inherent performance, or added performance.

The evidence is there to see..

Give Jenson a car he can push with, give him a car he can feel performance with, give him a car he can understand the reaction with and he will deliver results. Jenson has always been a driver who relies on what he feels, and it just so happens he probably feels a lot more than many other current drivers. His time with Rubens taught him to understand what he was feeling, and taught him how to set up a car with that knowledge.


I half think you're right. The other half of me thinks if you build a car capable of certain laptimes and the driver can't reach them because he's not comfortable whilst another driver can then it comes down to the driver not team. For example Lewis had to adjust his driving style around germany 2008 I think it was to get the most out of the updates. You could perhaps argue that adaptability is a strength of Lewis's and not of button's but I have read a few discussions about Newey wanting any updates that show a theoretical increase in lap time on the car, in other words it's up to the driver to exploit the car/update, not for the team to tailor updates to drivers.

The flipside is of course the drivers are fied entities (ahem, at least for a season at a time) so designing cars to suit them/helping them with set up to extract the most from the car etc are all part of the game. But I think Paddy Lowe as commented previously that they do not design a car for a driver/the drivers but simply to make it as fast as possible.

Edited by robefc, 02 June 2012 - 10:16.


#37 Lazy

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 10:09

MP4-27 will be bloody fast around Gilles Villeneuve circuit in Q, but the tyres will be much more of a deciding factor in that race than the previous races so I think even if Lewis is able to snatch the pole he will be passed in the race, because McLaren dosent have any closer tyre management to Lotus, RBR and Ferrari... even Sauber and Williams is better than us in that respect. That`s the resaon for slower race pace for me, nothing else. MP4-27 dosen`t lost it`s speed which is shown by 5 front rows this season, it`s just tyres nursing mode that hurts it`s race pace.


It's possible that that's only in Lewis' hands, JB showed in Aus and China that he could get more out of them.

Quite likely that if/when he gets his current "balance" issues sorted he will be back on top again.

#38 River

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:03

Ok, so I've been pondering this electrickery device that JB is concerned about. If its been fitted all season and is causing JB to have feedback problems, how come it wasn't a problem in Australia ?

If this device has caused the loss of feeling/confidence in the car so dramatically something must of changed since then.

Personally i think its just another Button excuse, he was fine with it in Aus and China. It's just the same as it's always been with Jenson, balance, tyre heating issues, blah blah blah, if he was really good enough, he would deal with it. I mean, just a couple of weeks ago he said how they had put somethign on the car that weekend, bahrain or spain i think and he said that was the problem and that they wouldn't do it again, so they didn't do it again and he's just been slow, or they have done it again? Just more excuses.

Edited by River, 02 June 2012 - 11:08.


#39 Con1

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 02:31

MP4-27 will be bloody fast around Gilles Villeneuve circuit in Q, but the tyres will be much more of a deciding factor in that race than the previous races so I think even if Lewis is able to snatch the pole he will be passed in the race, because McLaren dosent have any closer tyre management to Lotus, RBR and Ferrari... even Sauber and Williams is better than us in that respect. That`s the resaon for slower race pace for me, nothing else. MP4-27 dosen`t lost it`s speed which is shown by 5 front rows this season, it`s just tyres nursing mode that hurts it`s race pace.

So given what the tyre degredation is like at Canada, and the fairly high safety car use, is there not an argument for chasing the pole lap, and then trying to use the tyres rather than preserve them? Actually chase a gap on the field and maybe make one more stop? Try and use any safety car issues to make the extra stop. I worry that the real problem has been constantly trying to pace the car to preserve the tyres.

Having watched Monaco again, I think that there were at least two ways of playing a 2 stopper that would have got Lewis further up the field than running a 1 stopper like everyone else.

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#40 ianwit

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 08:50

Having watched Monaco again, I think that there were at least two ways of playing a 2 stopper that would have got Lewis further up the field than running a 1 stopper like everyone else.


Did you take in to account the average McLaren pit stop performance :cry:

#41 BillBald

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 11:41

Ok, so I've been pondering this electrickery device that JB is concerned about. If its been fitted all season and is causing JB to have feedback problems, how come it wasn't a problem in Australia ?

If this device has caused the loss of feeling/confidence in the car so dramatically something must of changed since then.


Well, of course a lot of things have changed on the car since then. We can see the aero has changed, there will be other things we can't see.

So its not totally surprising that a device which worked at the start of the season, is now causing problems.





#42 Kvothe

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 12:39

Well, of course a lot of things have changed on the car since then. We can see the aero has changed, there will be other things we can't see.

So its not totally surprising that a device which worked at the start of the season, is now causing problems.


You speak with a lot of surety about a device we're not sure even exists. Jenson has not officially come out and said anything about it, and has as Lights has pointed out maintained that he has lacked pace.

#43 BillBald

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 14:07

You speak with a lot of surety about a device we're not sure even exists. Jenson has not officially come out and said anything about it, and has as Lights has pointed out maintained that he has lacked pace.


Not at all, it's just that some seemed to be questioning whether this explanation of Jenson's problems could be correct, since he was OK at the beginning of the season when the device was apparently fitted.

It's all speculation on our part, we only know that something seems to be going wrong from Jenson's point of view, because in the last 2 races, he seemed to have a better setup on the first day than he had in quali.

So there's something about the car that he or his engineers don't understand.



#44 jrg19

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 16:32

http://autoracespons...ck-de-Vries.jpg

With Lucozade backing McLaren young driver and not Vodafone doesn't anyone else see the possibility of our new title sponsor changing when Vondafone contract runs out?

Bright blue McLarens... :eek:

#45 Owen

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 16:52

http://autoracespons...ck-de-Vries.jpg

With Lucozade backing McLaren young driver and not Vodafone doesn't anyone else see the possibility of our new title sponsor changing when Vondafone contract runs out?

Bright blue McLarens... :eek:

I think it may be on the agenda. How about an orange Lucozade McLaren? One for the fanboys. :lol:

#46 handel

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 16:55

I think it may be on the agenda. How about an orange Lucozade McLaren? One for the fanboys. :lol:


Probably not a big enough company though I expect? Anyone know how long the current Voda deal runs until?

#47 jrg19

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 16:56

I think it may be on the agenda. How about an orange Lucozade McLaren? One for the fanboys. :lol:


Yeah or the red colour of the original flavour with raw carbine fibre or dark chrome.

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#48 Markn93

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 16:59

Probably not a big enough company though I expect? Anyone know how long the current Voda deal runs until?


Is GlaxoSmithKline not big enough for you? http://en.wikipedia....2000_to_present

Edit: This is from a little while back, http://www.mclaren.c...gic-partnership

Edited by Markn93, 04 June 2012 - 17:01.


#49 OwenC93

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 16:59

Canada is probably Lewis's best track. Something will have to go wrong for him to win this year I think. Again it will be interesting to see if McLaren bring any updates to this race. A slightly raised nose with some turning vanes and then 2 little vanes on top of the sidepod all year isn't that great.

#50 Absulute

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 18:21

Canada is probably Lewis's best track. Something will have to go wrong for him to win this year I think. Again it will be interesting to see if McLaren bring any updates to this race. A slightly raised nose with some turning vanes and then 2 little vanes on top of the sidepod all year isn't that great.


I'm sure they've updated more than that