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Fernando Alonso - Part II


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#451 bmardini

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 15:38

These pay-driver nuts will only be happy if the sponsors SOLELY went to the team, and then the team from a truly merit standpoint picked Alonso to be the driver, and thereon he became an employee of the team and thus bound to their sponsor obligations.

Because, lets face it. Companies/sponsors NEVER sponsor individual drivers. They only sponsor teams. It is unthinkable that a driver may have developed a good business relationship over the years with a particular company and they follow him and his career, using their muscle to get him into good seats and at the same time paying the team handsomely.

Yes I am being incredibly sarcastic.

99.9% of racing drivers worldwide are pay-drivers; even if they have sponsors. Sometimes the sponsor covers 100% of the cost and the driver is just responsible for insurance deductibles in case of a wreck. Sometimes the sponsor pays half and the driver covers the other half.

Now, how does a driver get a truly free ride? Or, even better, get paid for the pleasure?

1) Team is so well endowed that they pay him
2) He's so good that so many teams want him, so they pay him
3) He (or his family) are so well connected business-wise that various companies "offer" to fund his ride in exchange for managing the family money, building some pipeline, opening the gates for marketing a product in market, etc
4) He's so marketable / celebrity, that regardless of his driving he is worth paying for

So, from current crop of F1, paid drivers include, but not limited to;

LH
JB
FA
FM
MW
SV
MS
NR
KR
RG
PM (have you SEEN that invoice from Williams to PDVSA??? I have)

and maybe one or two more.

So, 10 or so drivers out of a grid of 24 in the most exclusive, most profitable, most competitive motorsport series on earth.

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#452 kosmos

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 15:43

Fernando is going to watch the football match live, like he did in the Eurocup 2008 final, let's hope he brings luck to the team :). This is the words in twitter at least. If I find any photo I will post it.

#453 SirRacer

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 16:27

These pay-driver nuts will only be happy if the sponsors SOLELY went to the team, and then the team from a truly merit standpoint picked Alonso to be the driver, and thereon he became an employee of the team and thus bound to their sponsor obligations.

Because, lets face it. Companies/sponsors NEVER sponsor individual drivers. They only sponsor teams. It is unthinkable that a driver may have developed a good business relationship over the years with a particular company and they follow him and his career, using their muscle to get him into good seats and at the same time paying the team handsomely.

Yes I am being incredibly sarcastic.

99.9% of racing drivers worldwide are pay-drivers; even if they have sponsors. Sometimes the sponsor covers 100% of the cost and the driver is just responsible for insurance deductibles in case of a wreck. Sometimes the sponsor pays half and the driver covers the other half.

Now, how does a driver get a truly free ride? Or, even better, get paid for the pleasure?

1) Team is so well endowed that they pay him
2) He's so good that so many teams want him, so they pay him
3) He (or his family) are so well connected business-wise that various companies "offer" to fund his ride in exchange for managing the family money, building some pipeline, opening the gates for marketing a product in market, etc
4) He's so marketable / celebrity, that regardless of his driving he is worth paying for

So, from current crop of F1, paid drivers include, but not limited to;

LH
JB
FA
FM
MW
SV
MS
NR
KR
RG
PM (have you SEEN that invoice from Williams to PDVSA??? I have)

and maybe one or two more.

So, 10 or so drivers out of a grid of 24 in the most exclusive, most profitable, most competitive motorsport series on earth.

I think people got the pay-driver concept wrong.

Pay driver: pays to drive

I don't think anyone on your list pays to drive, more like the other way arround.

Having sponsors? It's a thing that has always been there and that always had an effect on field, but now with the finnancial crisis, it has an even bigger effect.

/end of story

#454 bmardini

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 16:33

I think people got the pay-driver concept wrong.

Pay driver: pays to drive

I don't think anyone on your list pays to drive, more like the other way arround.

Having sponsors? It's a thing that has always been there and that always had an effect on field, but now with the finnancial crisis, it has an even bigger effect.

/end of story


You're right, I meant PAID driver, my oversight.

#455 fabr68

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 18:52

Well, to call anyone a "pay driver" because of having a sponsor, then everyone is a pay driver.

I think Alonso's answer summarizes nicely of what a pay driver is: Someone who is not paid to drive, but pays (out of his own pocket) to drive.

If Emilio Botin replaces Massa next season as Alonso's teammate, then you could say Botin is a pay driver. Santander sponsoring Alonso does not make him a "pay driver". Alonso is not the owner of Santander.

#456 kosmos

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 19:45

Some people fail to understand that Santander knocked on Alonso's door, not the other way around. If Santander is behind Alonso, is first because Alonso has earn it with his results and second, because Santander thinks it's a profitable deal for them, Santander is not in F1 to do charity.

Only a hater will say that Alonso is a pay driver, Santander/Ferrari are the ones paying Alonso to drive and he is doing a fine job.



#457 velgajski1

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 20:00

Some people fail to understand that Santander knocked on Alonso's door, not the other way around. If Santander is behind Alonso, is first because Alonso has earn it with his results and second, because Santander thinks it's a profitable deal for them, Santander is not in F1 to do charity.

Only a hater will say that Alonso is a pay driver, Santander/Ferrari are the ones paying Alonso to drive and he is doing a fine job.


This. Pay driver uses his own money to put himself in team. If you're good enough, sponsors will pay for you to be part of the sponsored team, that's a big difference many people fail to understand.

#458 SCUDmissile

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 20:03

If Alonso was a pay driver with Santander, you would think that they would have sponsored Renault when he came back, especially as they were in financial trouble, but they didn't.

#459 SirRacer

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 20:58

I think in silverstone Alonso no one will be waiting Alonso in the pits after today's euro final :rotfl:

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#460 e34

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 21:01

With the Santander reference, it is obvious this guy is one of the few leftover widows of a certain F1 driver.


Yep, you know how they are, forever moving the goalposts so every wild shoot of the cool one is a score.



#461 flyer121

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 21:05

Sebastian + Good Car ("not the best") = most exciting championship

Lewis + Good Car ("not the best") = exciting championship

Alonso + Good Car ("not the best") = finish championship


So , in 2011 both Lewis and Alonso had not Good cars then ...

... Or did you find Sebastian winning , exciting in a masochistic sort of way ?

Edited by flyer121, 01 July 2012 - 21:06.


#462 SirRacer

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 21:16

So , in 2011 both Lewis and Alonso had not Good cars then ...

... Or did you find Sebastian winning , exciting in a masochistic sort of way ?

Hamilton and Alonso had average cars compared to that rocketship Vettel and Webber were driving

RedBull got all the poles possible except 1



#463 jstrains

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 22:02

Fernando was apparently watching Spain-Italy final today (twitter). The national anthems at the beginning reminded me of our great Valencia victory. I hope that the Italians will prepare his car as they should after today's game :lol:
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Edited by jstrains, 01 July 2012 - 22:08.


#464 puxanando

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 22:25

Fernando was apparently watching Spain-Italy final today (twitter). The national anthems at the beginning reminded me of our great Valencia victory. I hope that the Italians will prepare his car as they should after today's game :lol:


No, he wasn't! he post it on twitter.

After the match:

Fernando Alonso @alo_oficial
Gracias España!!! Fenómenos!!! Gran torneo de Italia también!! Thanks Spain !!! Great tournament for Italy too!!!



#465 Craven Morehead

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 22:32

This. Pay driver uses his own money to put himself in team. If you're good enough, sponsors will pay for you to be part of the sponsored team, that's a big difference many people idiots fail to understand.


fixed :)

#466 puxanando

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 07:19

Button believes Alonso is one of the best drivers on the grid as not only is he "dangerous" and "very quick" but he's also a "clever" driver who has worked his way into a position where he holds the lead driver spot at Ferrari.

"He has worked for that. He has really got his team behind him. I don't begrudge him that.

"He is in a great position but I don't think he gets different equipment to Felipe (Massa). He is just doing a better job with what he has been given and maybe he has had more influence.

"When you race against him and beat him, it feels special.

"I respect him a lot because he is not just very quick, his talents are more in the race than qualifying and surrounding himself with the right people in the team.

"He is a clever driver, so that is why he is dangerous, but I hope his winning is over, he has his home grand prix and hopefully we can take over now."


WEB

Edited by puxanando, 02 July 2012 - 07:20.


#467 Raelene

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 08:13

Do actually discuss anything or just post links all the time? Just wondering

Edited by Raelene, 02 July 2012 - 08:18.


#468 puxanando

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 08:50

Do actually discuss anything or just post links all the time? Just wondering


My thoughts reading this words from Button were how much he has changed speaking about Alonso.
Seems that now he has him in mind thinking in the title......it was not like this in the beginning of season.....

#469 Lights

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 09:03

My thoughts reading this words from Button were how much he has changed speaking about Alonso.
Seems that now he has him in mind thinking in the title......it was not like this in the beginning of season.....

Nothing changed in his speaking about Alonso. At the beginning of the season he was talking about his car.

#470 puxanando

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 09:20

Nothing changed in his speaking about Alonso. At the beginning of the season he was talking about his car.


Didn't he said, that Alonso would not be a "worry"?

Fernando now seems to be the GREAT rival for RBR:

Christian Horner believes Fernando Alonso is Red Bull's "obvious" rival in the fight for the title, but is expecting challenges for race wins from several teams.


WEB

Edited by puxanando, 02 July 2012 - 09:24.


#471 as65p

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 09:44

Nothing changed in his speaking about Alonso. At the beginning of the season he was talking about his car.


Of course he wasn't discounting Alonso as a driver. Still... it's the sort of unfortunate quote that comes back at you. :D I think JB can deal with it.

#472 flyer121

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 10:02

Hamilton and Alonso had average cars compared to that rocketship Vettel and Webber were driving

RedBull got all the poles possible except 1


So your definition of a GOOD car doesnt include the Ferrari in 2010 and Macca in 2011.

Glad we clarified that :) Perhaps you should have a get-out-free card saying if another car is a dominant one - the last 2 sentences dont apply :lol:

Edited by flyer121, 02 July 2012 - 10:07.


#473 jstrains

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 11:38

Poor statement from poor Jenson...

#474 SirRacer

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 11:45

So your definition of a GOOD car doesnt include the Ferrari in 2010 and Macca in 2011.

Glad we clarified that :) Perhaps you should have a get-out-free card saying if another car is a dominant one - the last 2 sentences dont apply :lol:

De la Rosa is good if you compare him to Kartikheyan, but he is average if you compare him to Alonso.

If there was no RedBull in 2010 and 2011, both Ferrari would have been good cars, but with RedBull added in the equation, they were average.

Pretty simple

#475 flyer121

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 12:16

De la Rosa is good if you compare him to Kartikheyan, but he is average if you compare him to Alonso.

If there was no RedBull in 2010 and 2011, both Ferrari would have been good cars, but with RedBull added in the equation, they were average.

Pretty simple


Yeah - its simple.

I was just clarifying what you or the OP considered a GOOD car. Thats all.;)

#476 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 12:36

Nothing changed in his speaking about Alonso. At the beginning of the season he was talking about his car.


No actually he basically said he wasn't worried about Fernando or the Ferrari at the beginning of the season(couple races in). He said he was worried about the RB.


@Raelene People contribute to the forum in different ways, nothing wrong with that. Plus Puxa also posts words & talks, just a bit on the quiet side. :up:

#477 jstrains

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 12:36

In Formula 1 you have no guarantee that you will have a TOP car. You might sign for several teams during your career and all your decisions might be wrong. It may happen that Alonso will never win a WDC again due not driving the best car...

#478 Mackey

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 12:46

In Formula 1 you have no guarantee that you will have a TOP car. You might sign for several teams during your career and all your decisions might be wrong. It may happen that Alonso will never win a WDC again due not driving the best car...


I think having signed for Ferrari until ¿2016? gives Alonso a big chance to become WDC again.

#479 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 14:12

Jenson has always spoke very very highly of Fernando.

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#480 Lights

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 14:21

No actually he basically said he wasn't worried about Fernando or the Ferrari at the beginning of the season(couple races in). He said he was worried about the RB.

No actually he basically said:

"I'm still only 10 points off the lead, and that's Alonso in a Ferrari. That's not the worry," Button said.
"I'm also only five points behind Lewis, who is the guy in a competitive car, so (it's) still not bad considering the day I had.

What you did was read the headline.

#481 flyer121

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 14:21

Jenson has always spoke very very highly of Fernando.


http://www.planetf1....issing-Going-On

Like this

#482 Lights

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 14:22

http://www.planetf1....issing-Going-On

Like this

https://twitter.com/...726137767636993

#483 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 14:27

No actually he basically said:

"I'm still only 10 points off the lead, and that's Alonso in a Ferrari. That's not the worry," Button said.
"I'm also only five points behind Lewis, who is the guy in a competitive car, so (it's) still not bad considering the day I had.

What you did was read the headline.


I'm not quite sure what you get from that statement, but obviously we disagree about what he's saying. Which is fine, we can agree to disagree.

#484 Lights

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 14:35

I'm not quite sure what you get from that statement, but obviously we disagree about what he's saying. Which is fine, we can agree to disagree.

He even specifies that Hamilton is 'the guy in a competitive car', hence he thought Alonso wasn't in one, else he wouldn't have said it like that.

If you don't get it from this, it just means you want to read it from a negative perspective.

#485 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 14:59

He even specifies that Hamilton is 'the guy in a competitive car', hence he thought Alonso wasn't in one, else he wouldn't have said it like that.

If you don't get it from this, it just means you want to read it from a negative perspective.


Right, exactly. He's saying the Ferrari isn't as competitive as the McLaren, therefore he means that the Ferrari isn't competitive and thus he's not worried about the lead Fernando had at that point because as many here claim the Malaysia win was luck. Either way he thought the Ferrari would show it's true pace(at that point, poor pace) and that it would get results more in line with where it was in the true pecking order. He didn't think Fernando would consistently put the F2012 in the top places thus he would lose the lead in the WDC and be overtaken by the McLarens which had a better car. Read it however you like.

#486 Lights

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 15:23

Right, exactly. He's saying the Ferrari isn't as competitive as the McLaren, therefore he means that the Ferrari isn't competitive and thus he's not worried about the lead Fernando had at that point because as many here claim the Malaysia win was luck. Either way he thought the Ferrari would show it's true pace(at that point, poor pace) and that it would get results more in line with where it was in the true pecking order. He didn't think Fernando would consistently put the F2012 in the top places thus he would lose the lead in the WDC and be overtaken by the McLarens which had a better car. Read it however you like.

Ehm, yes? So where did he say that he wasn't worried about the driver Fernando in particular? He didn't. Yet many write that here. Sepang was a wet race and at that point did seem like a one-off race that happen in many seasons. Nobody knew most of the races would become so unpredictable. At that time Ferrari as a team wasn't seen at all to fight for the championships mainly due to an average performance in Melbourne, but it has steadily improved since then and showed genuine frontrunning pace at races. Why fault Jenson for not being able to see into the future? He could not know the tyres would work out this way and that

#487 PoleMan

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 15:29

He even specifies that Hamilton is 'the guy in a competitive car', hence he thought Alonso wasn't in one, else he wouldn't have said it like that.

If you don't get it from this, it just means you want to read it from a negative perspective.

As Crucial explained, it was a diss on Fernando and Ferrari after just the 2nd race of the season. He was being dismissive of Ferrari's ability to fight back and be competitive...and he's essentially done the same thing again with his latest comments, downplaying the WDC leader.

"He won his home grand prix, when everything fell into place. Sometimes when you make those moves, they don't work out. And you end up in the wall. Was his performance scary? No, he just did a great job, and so did his team with strategy.

"The scary one is Red Bull."


Considering their relative cars and starting positions both in the beginning of the season and in Valencia, that's pretty scary to me. Especially considering that Fernando passed 10 cars before Vettel dropped out and how equal the pace of the Top 10-15 cars was. In short, it seems like Alonso WAS THE WORRY...and still is! :cool:

Edited by PoleMan, 02 July 2012 - 15:41.


#488 Lights

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 15:45

As Crucial explained, it was a diss on Fernando and Ferrari after just the 2nd race of the season. He was being dismissive of Ferrari's ability to fight back and be competitive...and he's essentially done the same thing again with his latest comments, downplaying the WDC leader.

"He won his home grand prix, when everything fell into place. Sometimes when you make those moves, they don't work out. And you end up in the wall. Was his performance scary? No, he just did a great job, and so did his team with strategy.

"The scary one is Red Bull."


Considering their relative starting positions both in the beginning of the season and in Valencia, that's pretty scary to me. Especially considering that Fernando passed 10 cars before Vettel dropped out and how equal the pace of the Top 10-15 cars was. In short, it seems like Alonso WAS THE WORRY...and still is! :cool:

There is no diss. Not then, not know. If you look at Valencia, Red Bull is indeed the scary one. Vettel got pole by over 3 tenths and his racepace was almost a second faster than anyone else, making it the most dominant display of the season so far. Jenson is totally right in saying what he said. Alonso drove a fantastic race, but Ferrari seems to lack qualifying pace and in the race Alonso was way off Vettel and on arguably on par with Hamilton, Lotus etc. He beat those drivers more on strategy and great overtaking than actual pace. If the top 10-15 is so close in pace but you have 1 guy up front driving away with ease, that is more scary than anything else with the rest of the season in mind.

#489 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 15:48

As Crucial explained, it was a diss on Fernando and Ferrari after just the 2nd race of the season. He was being dismissive of Ferrari's ability to fight back and be competitive...and he's essentially done the same thing again with his latest comments, downplaying the WDC leader.

"He won his home grand prix, when everything fell into place. Sometimes when you make those moves, they don't work out. And you end up in the wall. Was his performance scary? No, he just did a great job, and so did his team with strategy.

"The scary one is Red Bull."


Considering their relative starting positions both in the beginning of the season and in Valencia, that's pretty scary to me. Especially considering that Fernando passed 10 cars before Vettel dropped out and how equal the pace of the Top 10-15 cars was. In short, it seems like Alonso WAS THE WORRY...and still is! :cool:


I agree completely. In the first comments he was definitely writing Ferrari off, many did. You can't say Button was saying the Ferrari isn't competitive and with the same breath say he was worried about Fernando. Bottom line is he said the Ferrari isn't competitive and meant Fernando isn't a worry because of said car.

I didn't even read his latest comments until you posted them here PoleMan, and I agree it seems like he's at it again. Unless drivers are mad they don't usually come right out and say certain things. They do like Jenson did above and use little parts that slight the competition. Did some things fall into place for Fernando in Valencia, yes of course but as you mentioned he passed 10 cars without help before Seb went out. I don't expect Jenson to mention that or to even spend time talking about it, but the "fell into place" comment diminishes what Fernando accomplished before Seb went out. And that was his purpose IMHO.

@Lights it's ok if you disagree. We don't all have to agree on everything. You're not going to change my mind, nor I yours. People see & interpret things differently. This is one of those situations. And even though I support Fernando I'm always one of the more objective posters on this board.

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 02 July 2012 - 15:51.


#490 Lights

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 16:31

I agree completely. In the first comments he was definitely writing Ferrari off, many did. You can't say Button was saying the Ferrari isn't competitive and with the same breath say he was worried about Fernando. Bottom line is he said the Ferrari isn't competitive and meant Fernando isn't a worry because of said car.

I didn't even read his latest comments until you posted them here PoleMan, and I agree it seems like he's at it again. Unless drivers are mad they don't usually come right out and say certain things. They do like Jenson did above and use little parts that slight the competition. Did some things fall into place for Fernando in Valencia, yes of course but as you mentioned he passed 10 cars without help before Seb went out. I don't expect Jenson to mention that or to even spend time talking about it, but the "fell into place" comment diminishes what Fernando accomplished before Seb went out. And that was his purpose IMHO.

@Lights it's ok if you disagree. We don't all have to agree on everything. You're not going to change my mind, nor I yours. People see & interpret things differently. This is one of those situations. And even though I support Fernando I'm always one of the more objective posters on this board.

The two sentences in bold contradict each other. Just saying.

On his comments about when everything fell into place, he must think the same of his own win in Canada last year. It does not mean he downplays his performance in any way. Jus read the sentence after it, he's referring to his overtaking moves. There is risk involved and if it falls into place you can win and if it doesn't, you can find yourself in the wall. That was his comment about. If he's in an interview (a.k.a, being 'forced' to spend time talking about it) and he's being asked on whether Vettel or Alonso looked the most dangerous in Valencia when looking at the championship as a whole, then this is his answer.

The only dissing that's going on here is from forum members towards Jenson. What is your issue with him writing Ferrari off? That's all he did. Turned out to be wrong, but worse things have happened I'd say. How weird this season might have been so far, if Red Bull can continue to dominate in pace as they did in Valencia, the rest doesn't stand a chance, even if Alonso is the best driver of the field.

Edited by Lights, 02 July 2012 - 16:32.


#491 kosmos

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 16:40

"He won his home grand prix, when everything fell into place. Sometimes when you make those moves, they don't work out. And you end up in the wall.


So he is describing his win in Canada last year?.

#492 Lights

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 16:46

So he is describing his win in Canada last year?.

Yes.

#493 prty

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 17:02

Yes.


I don't think so. Otherwise he would have said "Sometimes when you make those moves, they don't work out. And I put you in the wall".

#494 Lights

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 17:07

I don't think so. Otherwise he would have said "Sometimes when you make those moves, they don't work out. And I put you in the wall".

Of course not literally, but to races such as.

#495 thechin

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 17:22

Don't be too hard on Jenson - he's hurting right now and is lashing out with sly little digs at people. I noticed in his interview after Valencia he explained how the win was pretty much down to him - apparently if he hadn't been so skilful as to back off on the first lap Alonso would have been in the wall.

Jenson is a very good driver, capable of great performances occasionally, but as soon as the expectation is high and the pressure is on, he tends to lose his edge.

#496 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 17:27

I don't think so. Otherwise he would have said "Sometimes when you make those moves, they don't work out. And I put you in the wall".


:lol:

#497 bub

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 17:32

Noticed that blubbing like a girl line....Cheeky.

Edited by bub, 02 July 2012 - 17:34.


#498 redbarron

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 20:57

I know Jenson said he didn't say the arse kissing thing, but I have to admit to being disappointed in his comments. I have a lot of respect for Jenson, but I would hate to see him taking cheap shots, just because he is struggling in comparison to others.

#499 SirRacer

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 22:41

I know Jenson said he didn't say the arse kissing thing, but I have to admit to being disappointed in his comments. I have a lot of respect for Jenson, but I would hate to see him taking cheap shots, just because he is struggling in comparison to others.

+1

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#500 Lights

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 22:47

Alonso Doesn't Consider Button a Title Rival

“I always respect all my rivals. Even so, I believe there are rivals you have to have more under control and others you can give a certain margin to. I've always said that Hamilton, Vettel or Michael, Felipe are very good drivers who can fight for the title,” said Alonso during a media event with Santander yesterday, according to Autosport.

“Button didn't win the title by chance last year, it was because he deserved it. And now he's leading the championship on his own merit because he has done better than us, so we have to improve. All rivals are respectable, but to me there are two or three I'll keep a closer look on,” added the Ferrari-an, hinting at the 3 names mentioned above.

I'll await the comments on how this was any different. Oh in fact, it is. Because unlike Jenson, Fernando actually personally aimed for Jenson, not the strength of his car.