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Fernando Alonso - Part II


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#751 JBLeon

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 13:49

I know the conventional wisdom is that these two won't be together at Ferrari in 2013, but I SO wish it will happen. I believe Fernando is the best driver for all the assets he brings to a team, but I feel Lewis has the potential to be the greatest...EVER! Alonso has matured and his driving improved so much since they were last together. For Lewis --even tho he's racing more with his head this year -- it's been kind of the opposite. But Alonso brings out the best in Lewis and vice-versa, and with the respect and appreciation they have for each other, I think a reunification would be EPIC! :clap:

Also, with F1 soon to go public, can you think of ANYTHING that would generate more fan interest than [b]ALONSO VS LEWIS: THE SEQUEL?[/b] :lol:

Methinks Fernando does not need Lewis. On the other hand it seems as though Lewis does need Fernando bad.

Lewis is the quintessential marker driver, someone who needs a strong teammate to do well.

I really wish Lewis the best.

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#752 billkaos

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 13:50

Fernando's race again ruined by bad strategy. Makes no sense to start on hards when all your rivals are starting on softs.

#753 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 13:51

Fernando's race again ruined by bad strategy. Makes no sense to start on hards when all your rivals are starting on softs.


Good to know, email Hamashima

#754 RedOne

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 13:54

It was a shame not to get the win but on the upside we only lost points to webber.

#755 JBLeon

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 13:56

I'd say Alonso's race strategy worked to perfection. He finished ahead of Vettel. Fernando finished ahead of Mark, in qualifying, by 5 hundreds of a second, in the rain. What makes people believe that Alonso should've won or gotten second is beyond me.

#756 Techcheat

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 13:58

It was a shame not to get the win but on the upside we only lost points to webber.


Stupid strategy when everyone starting on Softs and you and number 8 guy start with Hards. Than everyone on Softs pits at around lap 11-12 and Nando comes in on lap 15 and Lewis clearly shows that hards have enough to be good till about lap 20.

Even on last stint on softs. Alonso's time really not consistant. As it he got pressured. After being passed by Mark, Alonso's pace went up. If he could have maintained that pace he would have clearly stopped Webber. Pretty inconsistant by Ferrari.

#757 Lights

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 13:58

Red Bull was the better car this weekend, he beat Vettel. Not a bad weekend.

#758 billkaos

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 14:01

Good to know, email Hamashima

What does Hamashima have to do with strategy? Indeed, the Ferrari is working quite well with tyres.

IMVHO, Ferrari's problems with strategy are dating back to at least 2010.

Today the problem was clear: choosing hard tyres when all your rivals are starting on the soft is risky and brings no real advantage. If the choice is correct, you won't gain any position, as FA is on pole. If the choice turns out to be the wrong one, you'll lose some positions.

If you imitate the rest, playing a conservative strategy, you have far better chances to end the race on position 1.

Sorry for the offtopic.

Edited by billkaos, 08 July 2012 - 14:02.


#759 andresitoiniesta

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 14:07

I don´t think the strategy was ok. But as Red Bull was faster today they would have overtaken Alonso sooner or later. Maybe with softs at the beginning Alonso wouldn´t have been able to open a 5 secs gap.
But is always worse for the fans to lose P1 five laps left, so... Yeah, definitely bad strategy.

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#760 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 14:19

What does Hamashima have to do with strategy? Indeed, the Ferrari is working quite well with tyres.

IMVHO, Ferrari's problems with strategy are dating back to at least 2010.

Today the problem was clear: choosing hard tyres when all your rivals are starting on the soft is risky and brings no real advantage. If the choice is correct, you won't gain any position, as FA is on pole. If the choice turns out to be the wrong one, you'll lose some positions.

If you imitate the rest, playing a conservative strategy, you have far better chances to end the race on position 1.

Sorry for the offtopic.


I'm quite sure Hamashima has input about expected tyre wear and performance, which influences strategy. But change the name if you want, fact remains that they have a million times the data and knowledge we have and still you decree that the strategy was wrong, without anything to back it up

#761 zk12

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 14:21

Good result. Next race in Hockenheim, should be ours.

#762 jeze

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 14:23

Awesome driver. Deserves a title soon.

:up:

#763 seahawk

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 14:23

2nd is not bad. I did not expect better than 3rd place for a dry race. And the Ferrari seems to be a car which is at least ok on every circuit.

#764 Nitropower

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 14:30

Why stop so early on with first set of primes? Only one or two laps after Webber with options.... strategy mistake again?...

#765 Showty

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 14:32

I think the strategy was ok, i guess Ferrari was expecting a 8-10 laps soft stint at the end, and they had to go for 14 laps.

If they would had started on soft, considering the problems they had the end, they would have to pit earlier than Alonso´s rivals or lose positions on track and say goodbye to the chance to win, with this strategy they got the chance to win until the very end.

It´s a shame we couldn´t get another W, especially when u are that close, but hey, we got again a better result than the one this car deserves.

#766 LH08WDC

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 14:34

Good race by Fernando. Did everything he could.

#767 fatd

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 14:34

Losing the victory is a little bit costly but he still takes more points than every driver but one. He still carries the great form so there's little to worry about for you Alonso fans, and still so much to worry about for me not being his fan :p
Great race, great season so far Alonso :up:

Edited by fatd, 08 July 2012 - 14:35.


#768 SirRacer

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 14:35

Seems like whenever Ferrari has the car, they **** up with the strategy somehow...

Happy for 2nd but a little sad

#769 prty

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 14:38

As Gené said, Alonso started on hards because in case of rain they wanted to make a long first stint. That way they don't stop early for tyres, starts raining, and they have to pit again for inters.

It didn't work, tough luck, next race.

#770 Lights

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 14:43

Why stop so early on with first set of primes? Only one or two laps after Webber with options.... strategy mistake again?...

In the end I don't think this mattered too much. The problem wasn't the soft tyres hitting the cliff, the problem was that they were just slow.

#771 SirRacer

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 14:49

As Gené said, Alonso started on hards because in case of rain they wanted to make a long first stint. That way they don't stop early for tyres, starts raining, and they have to pit again for inters.

It didn't work, tough luck, next race.

They pitted too early to cover safety car too.

Too much conservative.

#772 andresitoiniesta

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 14:49

You can put as much pressure on Alonso as you want, he will only get better with the pressure :up:


PS: unbeliveable that people come here to say that we should not praise Alonso that much?


You can praise Alonso as much as you can, that´s obvious. But if things go wrong after all this praise, the thump is going to be worst for all you supporters, and you will have given a lot of people many arguments to piss their pants laughing until the end of times. We shoud (as Alonso does) have our feet on the ground about Fernando´s chances, because even if he´s very very good, he´s human after all. Don´t you think so? :up:

#773 puxanando

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 14:49

:) Happy! Alonso has good chance for title!

#774 topical

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 14:56

As Gené said, Alonso started on hards because in case of rain they wanted to make a long first stint. That way they don't stop early for tyres, starts raining, and they have to pit again for inters.


If that's true then they really did make a stupid decision. How many times does the rule have to be repeated: you react to what conditions are on the track, not to the conditions that might come in 40 minutes time.
However Ferrari were so poor on the softs I think they wouldn't have won over race distance anyway. 2nd place is ok, though a disappointment to lose it so late.

#775 SirRacer

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 15:07

You can praise Alonso as much as you can, that´s obvious. But if things go wrong after all this praise, the thump is going to be worst for all you supporters, and you will have given a lot of people many arguments to piss their pants laughing until the end of times. We shoud (as Alonso does) have our feet on the ground about Fernando´s chances, because even if he´s very very good, he´s human after all. Don´t you think so? :up:

Alonso won't let us down :up:

I don't find anything wrong with praising him when he is deserving this :up:

#776 ali_M

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 15:18

If that's true then they really did make a stupid decision. How many times does the rule have to be repeated: you react to what conditions are on the track, not to the conditions that might come in 40 minutes time.
However Ferrari were so poor on the softs I think they wouldn't have won over race distance anyway. 2nd place is ok, though a disappointment to lose it so late.


I think it was just their poor performance on the softs than anything else with the hards not lasting long enough to minimize the time on the softs. I wouldn't be too hard on Ferrari for this. They seem like gods when things work out and they surely messed up when things don't. I don't think we fully realize just how unpredictable the tires and the race evolution can be. Way too much responsibility is being handed out where it's not really warranted.

Alonso did his very best as could clearly be seen and he made no mistakes etc. A fine 2nd under the circumstances.

#777 billkaos

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 15:32

I'm quite sure Hamashima has input about expected tyre wear and performance, which influences strategy. But change the name if you want, fact remains that they have a million times the data and knowledge we have and still you decree that the strategy was wrong, without anything to back it up


Oh well, using that reasoning we should never post in the forum, how can we know? Note that I usually like to shut up, but today it is a clear case.

Again, IMHO the strategy was wrong. I back it up with a simple fact: when you are on pole you want a conservative strategy in order to keep position. Choosing the same tires than your rivals is a good step towards that, as there is a high correlation of them having tire problems if you have.

Choosing a different tyre strategy is useless. If it doesn't work, you'll lose positions. If it works, you gain nothing, you are already in front.

#778 RedOne

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 15:35

:) Happy! Alonso has good chance for title!


Me too! Let's goo!! :up:

#779 Classic Ferrari

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 15:49

Fernando did the maximum today, it didn't come down to much. What's impressive I think is the 29 point gap to Vettel and the 37 to Hamilton.

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#780 prty

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 19:08

Photo in the Red Bull car:

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#781 Skellen

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 19:12

Photo in the Red Bull car:

Posted Image

I bet it was on the Webbers car and thats how he got those additional 6 tenths!

#782 prty

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 19:14

I bet it was on the Webbers car and thats how he got those additional 6 tenths!


It was said that actually he was next to the "1" in Vettel's car!

#783 Skellen

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 19:23

It was said that actually he was next to the "1" in Vettel's car!

Damn, I fear the day when RBR will realize this element works the best on the drivers seat, not somewhere on the chasis.

#784 redbarron

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 21:06

I am happy and sad for the result yesterday. On one hand 2nd really keeps Alonso ahead in the championship. I feel that Vettel is the real competition for the title, as he is ultimately Red Bulls number one. Webber always seems to do well in the middle of the year. On the other hand I feel Ferrari might have lost the win. If they stayed on the Hards a bit longer at the start, it may have made the difference. I'm getting a bit over watching Alonso lose positions in the closing laps because of tires or DRS.

#785 puxanando

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 21:08

:) I am optimistic Fernando will stay on top of championchip!

ALO vs HAM - VIDEO

Edited by puxanando, 08 July 2012 - 21:40.


#786 SirRacer

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 22:51

:) I am optimistic Fernando will stay on top of championchip!

ALO vs HAM - VIDEO

Great to see the two best overtakers overtaking eachother, pure class :up:

#787 SCUDmissile

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 23:30

I am happy and sad for the result yesterday. On one hand 2nd really keeps Alonso ahead in the championship. I feel that Vettel is the real competition for the title, as he is ultimately Red Bulls number one. Webber always seems to do well in the middle of the year. On the other hand I feel Ferrari might have lost the win. If they stayed on the Hards a bit longer at the start, it may have made the difference. I'm getting a bit over watching Alonso lose positions in the closing laps because of tires or DRS.

Yeah for 1 and a bit years, it seems Alonso is always being caught by someone near the end of races when in a good position, for some reason or another.

It is nerve racking and annoying at this stage.

#788 evol88

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 23:40

Methinks Fernando does not need Lewis. On the other hand it seems as though Lewis does need Fernando bad.

Lewis is the quintessential marker driver, someone who needs a strong teammate to do well.

I really wish Lewis the best.


Which is why he won the WDC with HK as his team mate...

#789 Romulan

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 00:55

Congratulations Alonso! :cool:



#790 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 02:13

Oh well, using that reasoning we should never post in the forum, how can we know? Note that I usually like to shut up, but today it is a clear case.


Sure, this is a general problem which unfortunately cannot be helped. But what we can do is to lay out an argument based on the info we have. I would not have said anything had you written in the earlier post what you wrote now (quoted below). Because here you try to make your reasoning transparent, and it's possible to argue. But in your earlier post you just wrote "Fernando's race again ruined by bad strategy. Makes no sense to start on hards when all your rivals are starting on softs", basically ex-cathedra, and it annoyed me because you didn't say why you think so, and no argument is possible. I guess I overreacted because I'm so fed up with the many posters (not you) who visited the Ferrari-related threads in the recent tough months just to state stuff along the lines of "you are screwed, recovery is impossible, deal with it, goodbye". Sorry for the overreaction.

Again, IMHO the strategy was wrong. I back it up with a simple fact: when you are on pole you want a conservative strategy in order to keep position. Choosing the same tires than your rivals is a good step towards that, as there is a high correlation of them having tire problems if you have.

Choosing a different tyre strategy is useless. If it doesn't work, you'll lose positions. If it works, you gain nothing, you are already in front.


I do not agree at all, but as I said you make a discussion possible here, so :up: It's 4 in the morning, so I won't get into a counter argument here, everything has been said in the Ferrari 2012 thread anyway. Cheers.




#791 engel

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 02:19

You can't choose the same tires as your rivals when you don't know what tyres your rivals have chosen ... You choose by default the best strategy for YOUR car. Cars that are gentle on their tyres could get away with running options on full fuel. If Ferrari had run them on full fuel they 'd be done by lap 6.

PS Covering your rivals' pitstops is not a strategy error even if it seems with hindsight that it is. Track position wins every time, that's how F1 strategists think, that it's easier to defend on the road than it is to overtake

Edited by engel, 09 July 2012 - 02:22.


#792 HPT

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 03:20

You can't choose the same tires as your rivals when you don't know what tyres your rivals have chosen ... You choose by default the best strategy for YOUR car. Cars that are gentle on their tyres could get away with running options on full fuel. If Ferrari had run them on full fuel they 'd be done by lap 6.

PS Covering your rivals' pitstops is not a strategy error even if it seems with hindsight that it is. Track position wins every time, that's how F1 strategists think, that it's easier to defend on the road than it is to overtake


Massa ran 15 laps on softs in the first stint but he had really good pace.

#793 George Costanza

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 03:28

I was arround too, and I wasn't that impressed to be honest.

Benneton was very close to the best car in 94 and was the best car in 95, I rate those Benneton similarly to to the Renaults Alonso drove in 05 and 06. Schumacher faced lower competition than Alonso tough (Hill, Berger, Coulthard) vs Alonso's (Schumacher, Raikkonen).

Having said that, 2010, 2011 and specially 2012, Alonso was been on a much higher level than in 05-06, and it is normal that people start to rate him very very high, even if in those years it was Vettel who got the titles.


The Williams was the better car in 1995 by far, it was Schu that made the difference maker.



#794 Ferrari2183

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 08:32

In the end I don't think this mattered too much. The problem wasn't the soft tyres hitting the cliff, the problem was that they were just slow.

This. It is really that simple. Alonso himself said that the balance just wasn't there on the soft tyre. Shit happens.

What fills me with confidence is that both Webber and Vettel didn't sniff Alonso in that 2nd sector.

#795 SCUDmissile

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 09:40

I wonder if the balance would have been better on high fuel soft tyres. I mean felipe had great pace on the soft in the first stint.
I think maybe Ferrari gambled a little on rain, and if it had begun to pour, they would have looked like geniuses.

#796 puxanando

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 09:44

Was Massa strategy the better one?

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#797 SirRacer

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 10:11

Was Massa strategy the better one?

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I don't have any doubt about it

#798 Panktej

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 10:21

I am not sure, if someone have already posted the below; but it feels really good to read such praise from the senior management of the rival teams.

“Alonso does more things right than any other driver in the field” - Patrick Head
“He is simply one of the all-time greats” - Ross Brawn
“He wins races he shouldn’t win, races that he’s got no right to win. And that’s the mark of a great driver” - Mercedes team boss
“Whatever the track, whatever the conditions, there is always one common denominator — Fernando is always near the front.” – Heikki Kovalainen

Source


#799 kosmos

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 12:40

Already posted.

Fun fact, Fernando is very close to Senna podium record.

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#800 topical

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 13:14

This. It is really that simple. Alonso himself said that the balance just wasn't there on the soft tyre. Shit happens.

What fills me with confidence is that both Webber and Vettel didn't sniff Alonso in that 2nd sector.


Pardon my ignorance, but why does that fill you with confidence? Are there a lot of circuits coming up that have similar characteristics to the 2nd sector of Silverstone that makes it more important than the overall lap times?