Jump to content


Photo

Fernando Alonso - Part II


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
4015 replies to this topic

#801 topical

topical
  • Member

  • 2,094 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 09 July 2012 - 13:17

I am not sure, if someone have already posted the below; but it feels really good to read such praise from the senior management of the rival teams.

“Alonso does more things right than any other driver in the field” - Patrick Head
“He is simply one of the all-time greats” - Ross Brawn
“He wins races he shouldn’t win, races that he’s got no right to win. And that’s the mark of a great driver” - Mercedes team boss
“Whatever the track, whatever the conditions, there is always one common denominator — Fernando is always near the front.” – Heikki Kovalainen

Source



Nice comments. For some reason Frank Williams seems not to like Alonso (in a Guardian interview at the weekend he said he rates Hamilton and Vettel as the top drivers of the era), but I doubt he'll lose too much sleep over that.

Advertisement

#802 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 4,816 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 09 July 2012 - 13:20

Nice comments. For some reason Frank Williams seems not to like Alonso (in a Guardian interview at the weekend he said he rates Hamilton and Vettel as the top drivers of the era), but I doubt he'll lose too much sleep over that.


Frank was wrong about Hill too, like he admitted many years later.

#803 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,394 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 09 July 2012 - 13:22

I am not sure, if someone have already posted the below; but it feels really good to read such praise from the senior management of the rival teams.

“Alonso does more things right than any other driver in the field” - Patrick Head
“He is simply one of the all-time greats” - Ross Brawn
“He wins races he shouldn’t win, races that he’s got no right to win. And that’s the mark of a great driver” - Mercedes team boss
“Whatever the track, whatever the conditions, there is always one common denominator — Fernando is always near the front.” – Heikki Kovalainen

Source

One more reason why he should be compared to the statistically greatest of all time, he really grew wisdom and patience in 'his' team. The only thing that he hasn't accomplished (yet) is harvesting members for the Dream Team #2. I think the only two things that differs him from Schumacher is that this era is not about pure speed but a lot of management which really is his strong suit, plus it is likely that inter team battles could revoke an allergic response. But he's a true competitor and a lot of the 'nag'ability of Fernando has disappeared, that's good to see.

#804 Ferrari2183

Ferrari2183
  • Member

  • 8,936 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 09 July 2012 - 16:09

Pardon my ignorance, but why does that fill you with confidence? Are there a lot of circuits coming up that have similar characteristics to the 2nd sector of Silverstone that makes it more important than the overall lap times?

It is one area where the F2012 excels and there are quite a few tracks of that nature like Spa, Korea, Japan, India, Brazil and even the US GP has what seems to be a fast section.

Up until yesterday, I wasn't too sure about Ferrari's high speed performance but now I have little doubt. Sure they have to work on their slow speed performance and top end but seeing as though they keep reiterating that they are working flat out on it, even though they're not that bad, I think we can look forward to very good latter part of the championship.

#805 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 7,038 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 09 July 2012 - 17:02

Nice comments. For some reason Frank Williams seems not to like Alonso (in a Guardian interview at the weekend he said he rates Hamilton and Vettel as the top drivers of the era), but I doubt he'll lose too much sleep over that.


Maybe Fernando has snubbed Frank off once upon a time...


#806 Claudius

Claudius
  • Member

  • 2,277 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 09 July 2012 - 19:43

One more reason why he should be compared to the statistically greatest of all time, he really grew wisdom and patience in 'his' team. The only thing that he hasn't accomplished (yet) is harvesting members for the Dream Team #2. I think the only two things that differs him from Schumacher is that this era is not about pure speed but a lot of management which really is his strong suit, plus it is likely that inter team battles could revoke an allergic response. But he's a true competitor and a lot of the 'nag'ability of Fernando has disappeared, that's good to see.


I agree.
He seems much more balanced now and is performing to the max.
He's doing a stellar job in Ferrari.




#807 Alarcon

Alarcon
  • Member

  • 2,468 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 09 July 2012 - 19:52

Imo he´s doing a stellar job, right, BUT... he don´t have a fast teammate, and here is where Alonso had no pressure.

It´s easier to manage when all the team works just for you and you don´t have a guy with the same car pushing to your limits. Let´s see 2004 when Trulli beated him the time this season... he made some mistakes and was nervous. Let´s see 2007 where he fled away from McLaren like a looser (and that means like: "I have no b... to fight a competitive team mate".)

And after that his teammates were always rookies or ex-drivers like Massa (Massa before the accident was midfield driver and imagine Massa after the accident...) That´s what I´m pointing, when you don´t have a really fast guy next of your box it´s more easy to shine.

Hamilton had the challenge of J.Button (or Kova), Vettel the challenge of Webber... but the only time Alonso had the challenge he "fled away". Of course he´s maybe the most complete driver, always competitive, but in terms of fighting against fast team mates...

Edited by Alarcon, 09 July 2012 - 19:56.


#808 Claudius

Claudius
  • Member

  • 2,277 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 09 July 2012 - 20:09

You have a point there.


#809 SirRacer

SirRacer
  • Member

  • 1,162 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 09 July 2012 - 20:25

Imo he´s doing a stellar job, right, BUT... he don´t have a fast teammate, and here is where Alonso had no pressure.

It´s easier to manage when all the team works just for you and you don´t have a guy with the same car pushing to your limits. Let´s see 2004 when Trulli beated him the time this season... he made some mistakes and was nervous. Let´s see 2007 where he fled away from McLaren like a looser (and that means like: "I have no b... to fight a competitive team mate".)

And after that his teammates were always rookies or ex-drivers like Massa (Massa before the accident was midfield driver and imagine Massa after the accident...) That´s what I´m pointing, when you don´t have a really fast guy next of your box it´s more easy to shine.

Hamilton had the challenge of J.Button (or Kova), Vettel the challenge of Webber... but the only time Alonso had the challenge he "fled away". Of course he´s maybe the most complete driver, always competitive, but in terms of fighting against fast team mates...


- Massa was considered faster than Webber before Alonso joined
- Massa didn't seem slow in Silverstone, he was just behind Vettel
- Drivers usually don't have "pressure" when they're faster than their team-mates. You don't drive faster because you don't have pressure, you don't have pressure because you drive faster.
- In 2007 he was paired with the second best driver on the grid (at that time, who was better, Raikkonen?). Hamilton was hungrier than ever to win, he had a huge support from the team and from the press. Not to mention Ron's Dennis "we're racing Alonso", strange tyre pressures, etc. All in all, he finished tied in points with the arguably second best driver on the grid (that's my opinion, along with many more people). You said Alonso is bad or average at fighting team-mates, do you consider Webber or Button (the ones you mentioned) better drivers than Hamilton in 2007?
- Massa being slow after his accident is bullshit. His doctor said he was perfectly fine. And he showed that he is fast in some races (Bahrein 2010, Germany 2010, ..., Silverstone 2012).

I think that's pretty much all.

#810 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,274 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 09 July 2012 - 20:29

Massa is doing a crap job in recent seasons, but I don´t see how a change in that would affect Alonso´s performance at all.

#811 radosav

radosav
  • Member

  • 100 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 09 July 2012 - 20:30

Imo he´s doing a stellar job, right, BUT... he don´t have a fast teammate, and here is where Alonso had no pressure.

It´s easier to manage when all the team works just for you and you don´t have a guy with the same car pushing to your limits. Let´s see 2004 when Trulli beated him the time this season... he made some mistakes and was nervous. Let´s see 2007 where he fled away from McLaren like a looser (and that means like: "I have no b... to fight a competitive team mate".)

And after that his teammates were always rookies or ex-drivers like Massa (Massa before the accident was midfield driver and imagine Massa after the accident...) That´s what I´m pointing, when you don´t have a really fast guy next of your box it´s more easy to shine.

Hamilton had the challenge of J.Button (or Kova), Vettel the challenge of Webber... but the only time Alonso had the challenge he "fled away". Of course he´s maybe the most complete driver, always competitive, but in terms of fighting against fast team mates...

well, hamilton didn't have challenge of Kova cause Kova had to let him pass many times during 2008.
at the end of 2007 season Hamilton said that Alonso should find another team , and many mclaren team members said the same.
he wasn't at home there so it didn't have any point to stay in team where you aren't wanted.
alonso coped with a lot of pressuure during 2005 and 2006 against kimi and schumi.
all people in F1 world know who he is and what he can do, and they are praising him for reason.
that is why in 2009 brawn GP , red bull and ferrari wanted to sign contract with him.

#812 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,284 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 09 July 2012 - 20:34

Imo he´s doing a stellar job, right, BUT... he don´t have a fast teammate, and here is where Alonso had no pressure.

It´s easier to manage when all the team works just for you and you don´t have a guy with the same car pushing to your limits. Let´s see 2004 when Trulli beated him the time this season... he made some mistakes and was nervous. Let´s see 2007 where he fled away from McLaren like a looser (and that means like: "I have no b... to fight a competitive team mate".)

And after that his teammates were always rookies or ex-drivers like Massa (Massa before the accident was midfield driver and imagine Massa after the accident...) That´s what I´m pointing, when you don´t have a really fast guy next of your box it´s more easy to shine.

Hamilton had the challenge of J.Button (or Kova), Vettel the challenge of Webber... but the only time Alonso had the challenge he "fled away". Of course he´s maybe the most complete driver, always competitive, but in terms of fighting against fast team mates...


Teammates look as fast as you let them. Vettel had it covered last year, it's his problem alone if he can't this year. I feel your pain, but it's got nothing to do with Alonso.

But the best part of your post is the bolded. Don't we all remember that allmighty intra-team battle at McLaren in 2008/09? :drunk:

#813 SCUDmissile

SCUDmissile
  • Member

  • 3,926 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 09 July 2012 - 21:00

I think that argument "Alonso does great because he is with crap drivers" isn't that strong.
Massa maybe you could say he isn't the same after his accident but he was a respected driver who almost won a title before paired with Alonso, now people call him a turd.

Grosjean is doing great this year and in GP2, but he got dominated by Alonso very badly.

Nelson Piquet was as highly rated as Lewis Hamilton at one point. Then he got paired with Alonso.

Fisi as well, and the list goes on....

#814 andresitoiniesta

andresitoiniesta
  • Member

  • 118 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 09 July 2012 - 21:32

Maybe Fernando has snubbed Frank off once upon a time...


I don´t think so. The reason why Frank prefers Hamilton and Vettel is just because he thinks both are better drivers. End of story. Don´t try to find strange explanations for an opinion when it doesn´t fit yours.

#815 puxanando

puxanando
  • Member

  • 3,538 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 09 July 2012 - 21:46

:) Alonso is a great driver!

#816 BestCarWins

BestCarWins
  • Member

  • 196 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 09 July 2012 - 21:56

I don´t think so. The reason why Frank prefers Hamilton and Vettel is just because he thinks both are better drivers. End of story. Don´t try to find strange explanations for an opinion when it doesn´t fit yours.


I seem to recall back in 2009 when there was a quit threat from the manufacturers Alonso was also talking about quitting and said he would not drive for the smaller teams - this would include Williams to my mind (especially seeing as I don't think they were threatening to quit at this time). Here is an article link I found on it:

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8060335.stm

(I think he was actually asked point blank if he would drive for williams and he said no to that but I can't find that quote so can not back it up).

Maybe Frank does just think the other two are better drivers but he may also have been sighted by the above remarks.

#817 andresitoiniesta

andresitoiniesta
  • Member

  • 118 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 09 July 2012 - 21:57

:) Alonso is a great driver!


Are you kidding me?  ;)

#818 mknight

mknight
  • Member

  • 101 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 09 July 2012 - 22:25

Imo he´s doing a stellar job, right, BUT... he don´t have a fast teammate, and here is where Alonso had no pressure.

It´s easier to manage when all the team works just for you and you don´t have a guy with the same car pushing to your limits. Let´s see 2004 when Trulli beated him the time this season... he made some mistakes and was nervous. Let´s see 2007 where he fled away from McLaren like a looser (and that means like: "I have no b... to fight a competitive team mate".)

And after that his teammates were always rookies or ex-drivers like Massa (Massa before the accident was midfield driver and imagine Massa after the accident...) That´s what I´m pointing, when you don´t have a really fast guy next of your box it´s more easy to shine.

Hamilton had the challenge of J.Button (or Kova), Vettel the challenge of Webber... but the only time Alonso had the challenge he "fled away". Of course he´s maybe the most complete driver, always competitive, but in terms of fighting against fast team mates...


I think you're missing the point.

People talk about drivers not having a fast teammate like it's a negative. One can argue that only the truly brilliant drivers can galvonize a team and allow them to lay all their eggs in the one basket. Can McLaren place on their chips on Hamilton? No. Neither Button.
Probably right now only 2 drivers on the grid who haven't had dips in form, Alonso and Vettel.

Alonso is one of the few drivers that teams can afford to focus on and be 100% confident that he will deliver every race of every season. Different people have different philosophies, and Alonso (and let's face it, Schumacher and also Prost) believe maximum success comes from a no.1-no.2 driver hierarchy, which statistically speaking is absolutely evident.

Why should he agree to the idea of having 2 fast team mates taking points off each other? History has proved that this system is fundamentally flawed, and during a time where F1 is more competitive than ever, focusing on 1 driver can make all the difference.

#819 mknight

mknight
  • Member

  • 101 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 09 July 2012 - 22:28

Maybe Fernando has snubbed Frank off once upon a time...


I don't think the opinion of Frank carries much weight. After all, this is a guy who employs Maldonado. He's also a guy who looks at $ over driver skill. Don't get me wrong, he was fantastic back in his day. But recently his decisions have been questionable in terms of leading Williams as a company. The whole stock market flotation was a disaster, he's out of his depth in this modern day F1.

Edited by mknight, 09 July 2012 - 22:28.


Advertisement

#820 revmeister

revmeister
  • Member

  • 213 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 09 July 2012 - 22:29

Alonso doesn't need inter team competition because he is fight strong drivers in faster cars outside of the team. He's not resting on his laurels.

#821 SirRacer

SirRacer
  • Member

  • 1,162 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 09 July 2012 - 22:56

I seem to remember to have read somewhere that Alonso was offered a williams drive

#822 ASFA2011

ASFA2011
  • Member

  • 298 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 09 July 2012 - 23:00

Are you kidding me? ;)


Why would he be kidding ?

#823 ali_M

ali_M
  • Member

  • 1,115 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 10 July 2012 - 00:28

I don't think the opinion of Frank carries much weight. After all, this is a guy who employs Maldonado. He's also a guy who looks at $ over driver skill. Don't get me wrong, he was fantastic back in his day. But recently his decisions have been questionable in terms of leading Williams as a company. The whole stock market flotation was a disaster, he's out of his depth in this modern day F1.


I wouldn't set out to discredit the man in this way. It's totally uncalled for. I suppose you're not cognisant of just how challenging it is to fund a successful F1 team. I'd say it says a lot about Williams that the team is still in F1 AT ALL. Budget has a lot to do with their current driver lineup as well.

Just because he doesn't think THAT highly of Alonso doesn't mean anything much. It's ONE opinion. His priorities and insights may be different. Massa doesn't seem to like Alonso.... this I find quite telling since Massa got along very well with Schumi while playing second fiddle to him. I'll always put the character aside and not in focus. This isn't about how nice Alonso is, but about his abilities and this is why I'll always praise him in this regard. Many dislike Schumi because of how they perceive him as a person. It would seem that Williams has a similar reason behind his less than stellar view of Alonso.

All these drivers are multidimensional and we too often turn them into saints, which they certainly aren't.

#824 Les

Les
  • Member

  • 2,069 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 10 July 2012 - 00:31

I didn't know that Frank apparently doesn't rate Alonso. Ironic as Alonso would make a great 80s/90s Williams driver.

Or as I meant to say would have...

Edited by Les, 10 July 2012 - 00:33.


#825 Starlight

Starlight
  • Member

  • 183 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:29

I wouldn't set out to discredit the man in this way. It's totally uncalled for. I suppose you're not cognisant of just how challenging it is to fund a successful F1 team. I'd say it says a lot about Williams that the team is still in F1 AT ALL. Budget has a lot to do with their current driver lineup as well.

Just because he doesn't think THAT highly of Alonso doesn't mean anything much. It's ONE opinion. His priorities and insights may be different. Massa doesn't seem to like Alonso.... this I find quite telling since Massa got along very well with Schumi while playing second fiddle to him. I'll always put the character aside and not in focus. This isn't about how nice Alonso is, but about his abilities and this is why I'll always praise him in this regard. Many dislike Schumi because of how they perceive him as a person. It would seem that Williams has a similar reason behind his less than stellar view of Alonso.

All these drivers are multidimensional and we too often turn them into saints, which they certainly aren't.


I dont know if this is the case. But if there is some negative feelings, maybe its got to do with how the team has evolved since Alonso arrived? He has afterall got the team behind him pretty much since going over to Ferrari. In Micheal's case, he was there way before Massa arrived, so you cannot really expect Massa to 'not like' Schumi while at Ferrari.

#826 Rybo

Rybo
  • Member

  • 346 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:33

You really have to tip your hat to Alonso. Truly one of the all time greats. One really has to wonder though how many more WDC's he will get. F1 now is all about consistency and that's what he brings week in and week out. But with a resurgent Hamilton and a ever threatening Vettel, it seems unlikely that he will get past 3 or 4 championships.

#827 kosmos

kosmos
  • Member

  • 6,769 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 10 July 2012 - 06:07

Massa doesn't seem to like Alonso....


There is nothing to support that claim but Germany 2010, in fact it seems that they work very well together, they don't need to be friends just work together.



Interview with the lovely Lee McKenzie:



love the chair.



#828 Fontainebleau

Fontainebleau
  • RC Forum Host

  • 2,064 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 10 July 2012 - 06:22

Imo he´s doing a stellar job, right, BUT... he don´t have a fast teammate, and here is where Alonso had no pressure.

It´s easier to manage when all the team works just for you and you don´t have a guy with the same car pushing to your limits. Let´s see 2004 when Trulli beated him the time this season... he made some mistakes and was nervous. Let´s see 2007 where he fled away from McLaren like a looser (and that means like: "I have no b... to fight a competitive team mate".)

And after that his teammates were always rookies or ex-drivers like Massa (Massa before the accident was midfield driver and imagine Massa after the accident...) That´s what I´m pointing, when you don´t have a really fast guy next of your box it´s more easy to shine.

Hamilton had the challenge of J.Button (or Kova), Vettel the challenge of Webber... but the only time Alonso had the challenge he "fled away". Of course he´s maybe the most complete driver, always competitive, but in terms of fighting against fast team mates...

That is absolute nonsense. Alonso left McLaren by common agreement between him and the team - ie, both were happy with the solution. And that had nothing to do with "fearing" a teammate. May I remind you that in the second part of the 2007 season Alonso outscored Hamilton? So much for the "flying away" concept.

As for his other teammates, how short memory is! Why don't you review what was said of Giancarlo Fisichella before he partnered Alonso at Renault? After being chosen the best driver of the 2002 season by his fellow drivers (remember a certain Schumacher who drove that season too?), he was universally named as a future WDC when he had a competitive car; unfortunately for him, when he got it he found Alonso driving the sister car, and the rest is history.

Alonso said once, if I am not mistaken, that by now he is used to people diminishing the achievements of all his teammates just because he beat them as teammates; your rating of, say, Kovalainen as a better driver than Fisichella is just another example of that.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 10 July 2012 - 06:23.


#829 topical

topical
  • Member

  • 2,094 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 10 July 2012 - 06:27

You really have to tip your hat to Alonso. Truly one of the all time greats. One really has to wonder though how many more WDC's he will get. F1 now is all about consistency and that's what he brings week in and week out. But with a resurgent Hamilton and a ever threatening Vettel, it seems unlikely that he will get past 3 or 4 championships.


If he gets a good enough car he will get 4 or 5 championships. If he gets a poor car he will get no more championships. Same with Vettel and Hamilton.

#830 puxanando

puxanando
  • Member

  • 3,538 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 10 July 2012 - 07:13

Interview with the lovely Lee McKenzie:



love the chair.

:up: :) Nice video - thx

#831 velgajski1

velgajski1
  • Member

  • 3,619 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 10 July 2012 - 07:13

That is absolute nonsense. Alonso left McLaren by common agreement between him and the team - ie, both were happy with the solution. And that had nothing to do with "fearing" a teammate. May I remind you that in the second part of the 2007 season Alonso outscored Hamilton? So much for the "flying away" concept.

As for his other teammates, how short memory is! Why don't you review what was said of Giancarlo Fisichella before he partnered Alonso at Renault? After being chosen the best driver of the 2002 season by his fellow drivers (remember a certain Schumacher who drove that season too?), he was universally named as a future WDC when he had a competitive car; unfortunately for him, when he got it he found Alonso driving the sister car, and the rest is history.


The bit about Fisico, it was Schumacher voted as 'Best Driver' that year, Fisico won 'Drivers Driver' category which was something like 'greatest driver in weak car' or 'future WDC potential'. It is a bit stretched to use that award to prove something, it was arguably one of his best seasons (lots of point finishes in a really weak car). But overall if you look his career before that (for years in Benneton, not very great results given that Benneton was one of the top 3-4 teams in 90s, with Schumacher winning 2 titles for them) and after that - he didn't really prove to be all that great.

For me, Fisico was a driver that would have an odd heoric race here and there, but never had consistency needed for a top driver. But he was one of the better teammates Alonso had, so Alonso beating him so hard proves how great Alonso is, but lets not go into exaggerations with how Fisico was a top class driver. IIRC, many people in mid 2000's actually thought Webber to have potential to be fastest/best driver on grid in a right car, but imo - last couple of seasons proved that there are faster/better drivers out there.

Edited by velgajski1, 10 July 2012 - 07:17.


#832 launcher

launcher
  • Member

  • 103 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 10 July 2012 - 08:05

I think that argument "Alonso does great because he is with crap drivers" isn't that strong.
Massa maybe you could say he isn't the same after his accident but he was a respected driver who almost won a title before paired with Alonso, now people call him a turd.

Grosjean is doing great this year and in GP2, but he got dominated by Alonso very badly.

Nelson Piquet was as highly rated as Lewis Hamilton at one point. Then he got paired with Alonso.

Fisi as well, and the list goes on....


:up:

#833 Raelene

Raelene
  • Member

  • 5,338 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 10 July 2012 - 08:32

That is absolute nonsense. Alonso left McLaren by common agreement between him and the team - ie, both were happy with the solution. And that had nothing to do with "fearing" a teammate. May I remind you that in the second part of the 2007 season Alonso outscored Hamilton? So much for the "flying away" concept.

As for his other teammates, how short memory is! Why don't you review what was said of Giancarlo Fisichella before he partnered Alonso at Renault? After being chosen the best driver of the 2002 season by his fellow drivers (remember a certain Schumacher who drove that season too?), he was universally named as a future WDC when he had a competitive car; unfortunately for him, when he got it he found Alonso driving the sister car, and the rest is history.and

Alonso said once, if I am not mistaken, that by now he is used to people diminishing the achievements of all his teammates just because he beat them as teammates; your rating of, say, Kovalainen as a better driver than Fisichella is just another example of that.


I believe fisi was named most liked driver by his peers...not the best driver...and who named his universally as a future WDC???? I alwasy thought he was a journeyman..

Edited by Raelene, 10 July 2012 - 08:32.


#834 dreamerBiH

dreamerBiH
  • Member

  • 206 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 10 July 2012 - 09:53

Hi guys. I didn't read the previous discussion about Nando's tyre issues in the last stint and I don't know if it was mentioned by someone, but Alex Wurz suggested that Alonso possibly had a problem with graining...

If that was the case, then I don't believe that the strategy was bad. I would say that we were just a bit unlucky...

#835 ali_M

ali_M
  • Member

  • 1,115 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 10 July 2012 - 09:55

I dont know if this is the case. But if there is some negative feelings, maybe its got to do with how the team has evolved since Alonso arrived? He has afterall got the team behind him pretty much since going over to Ferrari. In Micheal's case, he was there way before Massa arrived, so you cannot really expect Massa to 'not like' Schumi while at Ferrari.


I don't see why Schumi being there before his arrival have anything to do with liking or disliking him.

Ron was there before Alonso arrived at McLaren. He wasn't even Alonso's co-driver. However, they failed to get along. :)

There is nothing to support that claim but Germany 2010, in fact it seems that they work very well together, they don't need to be friends just work together.

Interview with the lovely Lee McKenzie:



love the chair.


I can think of people I work with but who I'd not like to see socially. We work very well together too. Someone looking from outside would not think of how I feel and it's not hypocrisy either since my personal feelings have little, if any, place in a professional environment. Alonso's comments concerning Massa in that interview were measured, highly professional, and not revealing in any way.

For me, Fisico was a driver that would have an odd heoric race here and there, but never had consistency needed for a top driver. But he was one of the better teammates Alonso had, so Alonso beating him so hard proves how great Alonso is, but lets not go into exaggerations with how Fisico was a top class driver. IIRC, many people in mid 2000's actually thought Webber to have potential to be fastest/best driver on grid in a right car, but imo - last couple of seasons proved that there are faster/better drivers out there.


Fisico lacked mental strength, big time. Similarly Kovaleinen. Once placed in a front running car and having to deal with front running drivers, and even moreso, the expectations once given a front running car to drive, they simply do not shine. They're very good with underdog teams where good results are not expected. This takes the pressure off them. Lewis spoke of this quite well as a rookie in 2007. He was a lot more relaxed in that year since it was his rookie year and not that much was expected. He could lean on that as an excuse for not doing so well. OTOH, Alonso was under immense pressure because he was the double world champion now being raced by the rookie. In 2008, the pressure was on for Hamilton and he said this. No more excuses.

The paradox is that the really good drivers like Alonso will often not do so well if the car isn't competitive at all. They do the opposite of Fisi when the car is competitive. They rise to the occasion and knuckle down with absolute confidence and determination. It is wonderful to witness this.

#836 HPT

HPT
  • Member

  • 1,165 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 10 July 2012 - 10:05

I don't see why Schumi being there before his arrival have anything to do with liking or disliking him.


I think he meant to say that Massa was going into Schumi's team, hence it was easier to accept that Schumi would get preferential treatment, whereas Alonso was going into Massa's team.

#837 HPT

HPT
  • Member

  • 1,165 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 10 July 2012 - 10:07

The paradox is that the really good drivers like Alonso will often not do so well if the car isn't competitive at all. They do the opposite of Fisi when the car is competitive. They rise to the occasion and knuckle down with absolute confidence and determination. It is wonderful to witness this.


I think you're describing the good drivers, such as Button, and not the great drivers like Alonso. Alonso has done very well regardless of the car. The Renaults of 2008/9 come to mind. And also he started his career in a Minardi and already got noticed from there.

#838 ali_M

ali_M
  • Member

  • 1,115 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 10 July 2012 - 10:14

I think he meant to say that Massa was going into Schumi's team, hence it was easier to accept that Schumi would get preferential treatment, whereas Alonso was going into Massa's team.


Massa isn't like that, IMO. He knows Ferrari. He knows what happens when one of them is winning. Things will go the Ferrari way. He's quite the professional. He knows Ferrari isn't HIS team. :well:

#839 ali_M

ali_M
  • Member

  • 1,115 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 10 July 2012 - 10:20

I think you're describing the good drivers, such as Button, and not the great drivers like Alonso. Alonso has done very well regardless of the car. The Renaults of 2008/9 come to mind. And also he started his career in a Minardi and already got noticed from there.


I know what you mean, but I still feel he does even that much better when he smells the chance of winning. I didn't notice Alonso until he was driving for Renault. It was his unrelenting pace that got my attention. When others seemed to be tiring in the midfield, he'd be there working his way through them in the latter stages of races. There was tremendous promise in him. His fierce competitiveness reached a peak while at McLaren. This is where I was even more fascinated with him. Fisi types will simply never be like that when under pressure. :) They'd fold big time, ears down and all.

Advertisement

#840 launcher

launcher
  • Member

  • 103 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 10 July 2012 - 10:31

The paradox is that the really good drivers like Alonso will often not do so well if the car isn't competitive at all.



Yeh he was really horrible in the first half of the season was't he?

#841 Gareth

Gareth
  • RC Forum Host

  • 11,023 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 10 July 2012 - 10:42

your rating of, say, Kovalainen as a better driver than Fisichella is just another example of that.

It's not that far fetched to say Kova was better than Fisi - they did race together the season after Alonso left Fisi and the season before Kova joined Hamilton. And Kova won that battle convincingly, despite being a rookie.

Having said that, I think also agree that there's a bit of revisionism going on IMO with respect to Fisi's reputation prior to joining Alonso. My recollection of that time was of him being very highly rated.

#842 HPT

HPT
  • Member

  • 1,165 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 10 July 2012 - 10:47

I know what you mean, but I still feel he does even that much better when he smells the chance of winning. I didn't notice Alonso until he was driving for Renault. It was his unrelenting pace that got my attention. When others seemed to be tiring in the midfield, he'd be there working his way through them in the latter stages of races. There was tremendous promise in him. His fierce competitiveness reached a peak while at McLaren. This is where I was even more fascinated with him. Fisi types will simply never be like that when under pressure. :) They'd fold big time, ears down and all.


I think you simply failed to notice his quality when his car was less competitive rather than him not performing to his best :)

He has definitely improved over the years but his pace was evident since day one and he was equally unrelenting even from his days driving a Minardi. And as launcher pointed out (sarcastically) above, he was no less impressive even when the F2012 was uncompetitive at the beginning of the season.

#843 launcher

launcher
  • Member

  • 103 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 10 July 2012 - 10:49

Kova only barely beat Fisichella in 2007 really. 31-20 points, and I think they were about even in everything else. It's the sort of variance you expect between two evenly matched talents, although at that stage Fisichella was past it after Alonso's assault.

#844 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,394 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 10 July 2012 - 11:00

- Massa was considered faster than Webber before Alonso joined
- Massa didn't seem slow in Silverstone, he was just behind Vettel
- Drivers usually don't have "pressure" when they're faster than their team-mates. You don't drive faster because you don't have pressure, you don't have pressure because you drive faster.
- In 2007 he was paired with the second best driver on the grid (at that time, who was better, Raikkonen?). Hamilton was hungrier than ever to win, he had a huge support from the team and from the press. Not to mention Ron's Dennis "we're racing Alonso", strange tyre pressures, etc. All in all, he finished tied in points with the arguably second best driver on the grid (that's my opinion, along with many more people). You said Alonso is bad or average at fighting team-mates, do you consider Webber or Button (the ones you mentioned) better drivers than Hamilton in 2007?
- Massa being slow after his accident is bullshit. His doctor said he was perfectly fine. And he showed that he is fast in some races (Bahrein 2010, Germany 2010, ..., Silverstone 2012).

I think that's pretty much all.

Interesting stuff you mention.

The pressure is on both sides of the garage but more is on Massa to keep up this pace and keep going in the right direction. One thing speaks in his advantage, he's a racing driver and those have a mentality that is tough as hell. If he can manage to stay really close to Alonso, I suspect we might get to see a glimpse of the pressure prone Spaniard again. But for now Fernando is still ahead and he's used to pressure so it might even turn out to be a good thing. Massa's got the right attitude when things are going his way and his normal race in Silverstone proved that.

#845 Gareth

Gareth
  • RC Forum Host

  • 11,023 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 10 July 2012 - 11:03

Kova only barely beat Fisichella in 2007 really. 31-20 points, and I think they were about even in everything else. It's the sort of variance you expect between two evenly matched talents, although at that stage Fisichella was past it after Alonso's assault.

So Fisi was one of the best drivers out there in 2004. In 2005 and 2006 he remained one of the best out there, it was just Alonso was so much better. Then in 2007 Fisi was past it? And having your rookie teammate score 150% of your points is being beaten only barely? Come on ...

For what it's worth, I think Alonso is currently the best driver on the grid and has arguably been the best driver for over 5 years now. I think he is fantastic. Right now, I think he is better than my favourite driver (although I think that could change in the future, we'll see). I'm not trying to put Alonso down at all. I think he is brilliant. I just think a fair recollection of the relative talents of Fisi and Kova is reasonable.

#846 andresitoiniesta

andresitoiniesta
  • Member

  • 118 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 10 July 2012 - 11:12

Why would he be kidding ?


IRONY: The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
:up:

#847 velgajski1

velgajski1
  • Member

  • 3,619 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:16

So Fisi was one of the best drivers out there in 2004. In 2005 and 2006 he remained one of the best out there, it was just Alonso was so much better. Then in 2007 Fisi was past it? And having your rookie teammate score 150% of your points is being beaten only barely? Come on ...

For what it's worth, I think Alonso is currently the best driver on the grid and has arguably been the best driver for over 5 years now. I think he is fantastic. Right now, I think he is better than my favourite driver (although I think that could change in the future, we'll see). I'm not trying to put Alonso down at all. I think he is brilliant. I just think a fair recollection of the relative talents of Fisi and Kova is reasonable.


You need to really watch your words here, and you need to specifically tell that you think Alonso is best on grid if you want to dispute some of the fantasies that certian people have on this thread.

Fisico was highly rated until he got a great car under his hands like many other drivers before him, and many other drivers after him (Kovalainen amongst those). If someone wants to make Alonso great they should rather speak about some of his brilliant 2005/2006 wins then bigging up Fisico.

#848 ali_M

ali_M
  • Member

  • 1,115 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 10 July 2012 - 13:48

Fisico was highly rated until he got a great car under his hands like many other drivers before him, and many other drivers after him (Kovalainen amongst those). If someone wants to make Alonso great they should rather speak about some of his brilliant 2005/2006 wins then bigging up Fisico.


:up: Fisi didn't do well in the limelight, especially when he faced a tough challenge as Alonso or any of the front runners during a wheel to wheel battle. He definitely showed himself up as a reasonable No.2 driver for a front running team or even better, a mid-field driver. Kova is another, and I suspect Heidfeld though he never really found himself in competitive machinery (not bad luck either).

#849 puxanando

puxanando
  • Member

  • 3,538 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 10 July 2012 - 17:03

Alonso is the ONLY driver who take away points in EVERY race this season! :)

#850 SirRacer

SirRacer
  • Member

  • 1,162 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 10 July 2012 - 17:48

Alonso is the ONLY driver who take away points in EVERY race this season! :)

Could it be possible that he is also the only driver to outscore/outqualify his team-mate in every race this season?