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Fernando Alonso - Part II


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#851 Fontainebleau

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 20:13

The bit about Fisico, it was Schumacher voted as 'Best Driver' that year, Fisico won 'Drivers Driver' category which was something like 'greatest driver in weak car' or 'future WDC potential'. It is a bit stretched to use that award to prove something, it was arguably one of his best seasons (lots of point finishes in a really weak car). But overall if you look his career before that (for years in Benneton, not very great results given that Benneton was one of the top 3-4 teams in 90s, with Schumacher winning 2 titles for them) and after that - he didn't really prove to be all that great.

Nope:
"Fisichella beats Schumacher in F1 drivers' poll

January 12, 2003 17:44 IST

Italian Giancarlo Fisichella has beaten Ferrari's five times world champion Michael Schumacher in a poll of his fellow Formula One drivers." http://www.rediff.co...03/jan/12f1.htm

So Schumacher was very much a contender for that vote, but came behind Fisichella.

For me, Fisico was a driver that would have an odd heoric race here and there, but never had consistency needed for a top driver. But he was one of the better teammates Alonso had, so Alonso beating him so hard proves how great Alonso is, but lets not go into exaggerations with how Fisico was a top class driver. IIRC, many people in mid 2000's actually thought Webber to have potential to be fastest/best driver on grid in a right car, but imo - last couple of seasons proved that there are faster/better drivers out there.

For you, but not for others:

"Giancarlo is one of the top three and I would say even top two drivers these days," said former commentator and Formula One personality Murray Walker at the annual Grand Prix fundraiser on Saturday.

Giancarlo Fisichella has been described by Jean Alesi as "the second best driver in Formula One at the moment, second only to Michael Schumacher."
Unlike Schumacher though, Fisichella has never been in a competitive car at the right time to challenge for the championship. While Schumacher has racked up a record six world championships, Fisichella has yet to realize his dream of driving for a top team, having endured a career of highs and lows.
http://www.f1network...411.htm?print=1

Edited by Fontainebleau, 10 July 2012 - 20:15.


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#852 Skinnyguy

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 20:22

It´s funny to read these things with the advantage of hindsight :lol:

#853 SirRacer

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 20:25

Except Trulli and Hamilton, apparently drivers start to suck somehow when they get paired with Fernando...

#854 Skinnyguy

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 20:34

Hi guys. I didn't read the previous discussion about Nando's tyre issues in the last stint and I don't know if it was mentioned by someone, but Alex Wurz suggested that Alonso possibly had a problem with graining...

If that was the case, then I don't believe that the strategy was bad. I would say that we were just a bit unlucky...


Mentioned in Spanish TV too. I think it was the case, it fits with Alonso´s pace, it wasn´t a continous drop off, his times were not that bad after Webber passed him.

#855 Creepy

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 21:42

Let´s see 2004 when Trulli beated him the time this season...


Alonso didn't get beat. He got matched. Alonso suffered more retirements than Trulli and even so Trulli only managed to match him regarding points (more or less).

Also Alonso beat Trulli right the year before so it is not that he cannot handle it or shine with a competent team mate.

Let´s see 2007 where he fled away from McLaren like a looser (and that means like: "I have no b... to fight a competitive team mate".)


:rolleyes: You won't really take this and I don't care but just for the record I'm gonna say that I'm pretty sure if Alonso had felt he team was being fair to him he would have stayed. But with such animosity ("they were racing Fernando after all") and clearly preference to Hamilton by Ron Dennis (which is fair anyway) there was no reason to stay in the team. I don't see that about being a loser or having no balls, I actually see it as being sharp, see how things are now :p ).


I agree though with your point that it's easier to shine when you don't have such a good team mate.. But I don't see it relevant, Bringing out that I personally see it just as an attempt to take out Alonso's meriths (which is something Alonso always have to deal with at internet forums when he's fighting for wins). And why I don't see it relevant that about Alonso's team mates? Because it was Alonso who put himself in such preferential treatment because of his skills (without them he would not have gotten support from any team or sponsor, ask Gene or De La Rosa).

You need to really watch your words here, and you need to specifically tell that you think Alonso is best on grid if you want to dispute some of the fantasies that certian people have on this thread.


Unfair remark. Only because some people disagree with you it doesn't mean they are having fantasies or something.

Edited by Creepy, 10 July 2012 - 21:44.


#856 fabr68

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:06

Imo he´s doing a stellar job, right, BUT... he don´t have a fast teammate, and here is where Alonso had no pressure.

It´s easier to manage when all the team works just for you and you don´t have a guy with the same car pushing to your limits. Let´s see 2004 when Trulli beated him the time this season... he made some mistakes and was nervous. Let´s see 2007 where he fled away from McLaren like a looser (and that means like: "I have no b... to fight a competitive team mate".)

And after that his teammates were always rookies or ex-drivers like Massa (Massa before the accident was midfield driver and imagine Massa after the accident...) That´s what I´m pointing, when you don´t have a really fast guy next of your box it´s more easy to shine.

Hamilton had the challenge of J.Button (or Kova), Vettel the challenge of Webber... but the only time Alonso had the challenge he "fled away". Of course he´s maybe the most complete driver, always competitive, but in terms of fighting against fast team mates...


The same argument goes for Vettel. When has he had a fast teammate? Sorry, but Webber is no Hamilton. Not even Button.

#857 Raelene

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:28

Nope:
"Fisichella beats Schumacher in F1 drivers' poll

January 12, 2003 17:44 IST

Italian Giancarlo Fisichella has beaten Ferrari's five times world champion Michael Schumacher in a poll of his fellow Formula One drivers." http://www.rediff.co...03/jan/12f1.htm


you really should so some more research. as I said - it was a poularity contest.... it was discussed by many of us who were here at the time. Actually if you read the link you sent - it also says MSC won driver of the year.

here's another link

http://www.carmag.co...rite-2003-01-13

Jordan driver, Italian Giancarlo Fisichella, was named “Mr Congeniality” by his peers at the 2003 Grand Prix Party held in Birmingham at the weekend.
Better known as the “Bernies” (named after F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone), the Formula One Awards ceremony was run in conjunction with the party - a fund-raiser for Professor Sid Watkins' Brain and Spine Foundation - and was attended by a number of Formula One stars and personalities of the past, present and future.

Fisichella received the “Driver's Driver” award after F1 pilots and test drivers from last season overwhelmingly voted the diminutive Italian their personal favourite driver.
Five-times world champion Michael Schumacher was voted the “Best driver of 2002” by a panel of judges for his performances last season. Jaguar driver Mark Webber received the title of “Best newcomer” after scoring two world championship points for Minardi in the 2002 season opener as well as a superb drive in the Monaco Grand Prix.

"It's certainly great for me to receive a 'Bernie' Award, because after all, he's (Ecclestone) the guy who has made F1 what it is and I'd like to thank everyone on the voting panel," said Webber. "2002 was a highly memorable season for me and I'm sure the Melbourne result helped to earn this award, as a lot of people were genuinely happy to see one of the smaller teams get lucky."

McLaren Mercedes driver David Coulthard presented his boss, Ron Dennis, with the “Lifetime Achievement” award while former ITV commentator, Murray Walker, awarded the `Outstanding Contribution in 2002' title to F1 race director Charlie Whiting

Edited by Raelene, 11 July 2012 - 02:33.


#858 teejay

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:51

Look, I still resent Alonso for what he did/did not do/probably did at McLaren in 07.

But anyone with an ounce of respect about F1 must recognise that he has been in the top 1/2/3 drivers for around half a decade now. His 2 titles probably dont serve just how well he has driven justice, but you could say that about a couple of others I am sure.

#859 velgajski1

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:14

Nope:
"Fisichella beats Schumacher in F1 drivers' poll

January 12, 2003 17:44 IST

Italian Giancarlo Fisichella has beaten Ferrari's five times world champion Michael Schumacher in a poll of his fellow Formula One drivers." http://www.rediff.co...03/jan/12f1.htm

So Schumacher was very much a contender for that vote, but came behind Fisichella.


At the yearly held F-1 Awards Fisico was honoured by fellow race-drivers as driver of the year! :D

Other winners were:
- Michael Schumacher: "Best driver of 2002" - no kidding
- Mark Webber: "Best Newcomer" - well deserved
- Charlie Whiting: "Outstanding Contribution" - he's the race director
- Ron Dennis: "Lifetime Achievement" - Is McLarens boss thinking about retirement?

http://www.automotiv...ver_award_.html


Driver's driver award counted in facts like car which you're driving, potential for the future and things like fair play on track. At the time Fisico was almost 30 and still without a win in F1. He managed a freak win in Jordan F1 later, and props for that, but he never had mental strength or consistency to be regarded as top driver. There were other drivers in 'top 2-3', which proved otherwise when put in a strong car, one of them is certianly Mark Webber for whom, TV commentary on my TV back in 2004-2006 said is on same level as Alonso/Kimi/Schumacher if not better than all of them.

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#860 velgajski1

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:18

Unfair remark. Only because some people disagree with you it doesn't mean they are having fantasies or something.


I'm talking about Fisico being rated as best driver on grid - Schumacher won that award actually. It was more of a popularity contest coupled with the fact that he was a talented driver in not so great car. That is not 'opinion' or something we can agree or disagree about, those are the facts. Schumacher won best driver award, Fisico won 'drivers driver' award which included talent but also fair play and popularity amongst other drivers.

#861 Raelene

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:25

Driver's driver award counted in facts like car which you're driving, potential for the future and things like fair play on track. At the time Fisico was almost 30 and still without a win in F1. He managed a freak win in Jordan F1 later, and props for that, but he never had mental strength or consistency to be regarded as top driver. There were other drivers in 'top 2-3', which proved otherwise when put in a strong car, one of them is certianly Mark Webber for whom, TV commentary on my TV back in 2004-2006 said is on same level as Alonso/Kimi/Schumacher if not better than all of them.


it was Miss Congenialty/most popular girl in school award pretty much... I'm sure he could do a search of the forum and see the discussions many of us had at the time.

#862 Gareth

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:00

As a previous recipient of a "players player" award from my rugby club, I'd like to say that it's a bit more than a "most popular girl in school" award ... :lol:

I also have to say that the "player of the season" award winner was a much, much better player than me!

#863 Fontainebleau

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:26

you really should so some more research. as I said - it was a poularity contest.... it was discussed by many of us who were here at the time. Actually if you read the link you sent - it also says MSC won driver of the year.

here's another link

http://www.carmag.co...rite-2003-01-13

Maybe it is you who shoud do it, given that you seem to think that the Drivers's Driver is a "miss Congeniality" award:

http://www.gpupdate....reams-of-glory/
"GIANCARLO FISICHELLA won the drivers' driver award at the Grand Prix Party in Birmingham on Saturday night. The Italian Jordan driver beat world champion Michael Schumacher in a poll of last year's F1 drivers, who were asked to vote for who they thought was the best driver (they weren't allowed to vote for themselves)."
http://www.thefreeli...art.-a096371416
GIANCARLO Fisichella has beaten five-time world champion Michael Schumacher in a poll of his fellow Formula One drivers.
http://www.gpupdate....say-f1-drivers/
Fisichella better than champ Schumacher, say F1 drivers
Formula One drivers have overlooked five-times world champion Michael Schumacher to name Italian Giancarlo Fisichella as the best in the sport.
Schumacher may have won 64 races in 178 starts with such dominance to prompt an overhaul of the rules, but he was not the sport's number one, according to his peers behind the wheel in a poll after last season's racing.

I am fully aware that Schumacher won the "Best Driver" award; the difference between his and Fisichella's is that in the former the voting is carried out among team principals, and in the latter among drivers.

it was Miss Congenialty/most popular girl in school award pretty much... I'm sure he could do a search of the forum and see the discussions many of us had at the time.


I wonder how comes that you all had such a lengthy discussion and none of you came across the specific question that was asked to drivers. As you can see, it was widely published.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 11 July 2012 - 08:33.


#864 launcher

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:30

These awards are not really important, what is important is that Fisichella beat the following drivers convincingly

Ralf Schumacher
Wurz
Sato
Massa
Button.
Was a match for Sutil even at the end of his career.

A great resume, one of the best actually, hence his very high rating until running into Alonso.

Edited by launcher, 11 July 2012 - 08:32.


#865 Fontainebleau

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:41

Driver's driver award counted in facts like car which you're driving, potential for the future and things like fair play on track. At the time Fisico was almost 30 and still without a win in F1. He managed a freak win in Jordan F1 later, and props for that, but he never had mental strength or consistency to be regarded as top driver. There were other drivers in 'top 2-3', which proved otherwise when put in a strong car, one of them is certianly Mark Webber for whom, TV commentary on my TV back in 2004-2006 said is on same level as Alonso/Kimi/Schumacher if not better than all of them.

Shall we go back to your initial quote, the one I replied to, instead of shifting the goalposts?

You stated that "the only time Alonso had the challenge he "fled away"" and he never had a good teammate (including Fisichella in that description), while Hamilton was challenged by Kovalainen and Vettel by Webber.

I said that you comment was nonsense, and that Fisichella was at the time more than a match for what Kovalainen was in 2008, or Webber before he had a great RBR car. You are now trying to argue if Fisichella was a top driver - as if you rated Kovalainen and Webber as such. And I stand my ground: if you consider that Hamilton's worth was proved by him facing Kovalainen, and Vettel's by him facing Webber, you have to give it to Alonso that he faced Fisichella at a time when he was very highly regarded - so much for your despective "fleeing away from challenges" comment.

As for Hamilton facing Button, please see Launcher's comment above about how Fisichella fared against that same driver.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 11 July 2012 - 08:43.


#866 Fontainebleau

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:44

These awards are not really important, what is important is that Fisichella beat the following drivers convincingly

Ralf Schumacher
Wurz
Sato
Massa
Button.
Was a match for Sutil even at the end of his career.

A great resume, one of the best actually, hence his very high rating until running into Alonso.

In a sense I agree, it is much more important to see the results you listed below. But it is always telling when the drivers themselves give the thums-up to a colleague!  ;)

#867 Raelene

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:46

Maybe it is you who shoud do it, given that you seem to think that the Drivers's Driver is a "miss Congeniality" award:

http://www.gpupdate....reams-of-glory/
"GIANCARLO FISICHELLA won the drivers' driver award at the Grand Prix Party in Birmingham on Saturday night. The Italian Jordan driver beat world champion Michael Schumacher in a poll of last year's F1 drivers, who were asked to vote for who they thought was the best driver (they weren't allowed to vote for themselves)."
http://www.thefreeli...art.-a096371416
GIANCARLO Fisichella has beaten five-time world champion Michael Schumacher in a poll of his fellow Formula One drivers.
http://www.gpupdate....say-f1-drivers/
Fisichella better than champ Schumacher, say F1 drivers
Formula One drivers have overlooked five-times world champion Michael Schumacher to name Italian Giancarlo Fisichella as the best in the sport.
Schumacher may have won 64 races in 178 starts with such dominance to prompt an overhaul of the rules, but he was not the sport's number one, according to his peers behind the wheel in a poll after last season's racing.

I am fully aware that Schumacher won the "Best Driver" award; the difference between his and Fisichella's is that in the former the voting is carried out among team principals, and in the latter among drivers.



I wonder how comes that you all had such a lengthy discussion and none of you came across the specific question that was asked to drivers. As you can see, it was widely published.



I was arokund at the time - I know the "screaming headlines" that were used.... and sorry, earlier you said MSC didn't win the Best Driver award. It really really was a popular vote award..

anyway, it's silly - you got confused about the type of award he won - no worries.

Gareth - i was just teasing..

#868 Fontainebleau

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:51

I was arokund at the time - I know the "screaming headlines" that were used.... and sorry, earlier you said MSC didn't win the Best Driver award. It really really was a popular vote award..

anyway, it's silly - you got confused about the type of award he won - no worries.

Gareth - i was just teasing..

No, I didn't. I have given you all the information you need to understand what the Drivers's Driver award is, including the question asked to drivers (asked to vote for who they thought was the best driver (they weren't allowed to vote for themselves)). And please do point out where I said that Schumacher never won the Best Driver award. The only thing I said of Fisichella was "After being chosen the best driver of the 2002 season by his fellow drivers" - no confusion there, he was indeed.

So please stop being condescendent, because although I am sure I have made mistakes of my own, this time it is you who was wrong.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 11 July 2012 - 08:55.


#869 velgajski1

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:55

You stated that "the only time Alonso had the challenge he "fled away"" and he never had a good teammate (including Fisichella in that description), while Hamilton was challenged by Kovalainen and Vettel by Webber.

I said that you comment was nonsense, and that Fisichella was at the time more than a match for what Kovalainen was in 2008, or Webber before he had a great RBR car. You are now trying to argue if Fisichella was a top driver - as if you rated Kovalainen and Webber as such. And I stand my ground: if you consider that Hamilton's worth was proved by him facing Kovalainen, and Vettel's by him facing Webber, you have to give it to Alonso that he faced Fisichella at a time when he was very highly regarded - so much for your despective "fleeing away from challenges" comment.

As for Hamilton facing Button, please see Launcher's comment above about how Fisichella fared against that same driver.


I'm sorry man, but now you're just making things up. If you go back a bit you will see that another poster said that Alonso fled away, not me. I'm just disputing that Fisico was one of the best on grid.

Also, I don't recall mentioning Kovalainen myself, someone else did that too. I only later said that Kovalainen (mentioned at that time) was amongst those talented drivers that failed in top team just like Fisico did.

The only thing I wrote is that Fisico was not that good, that he is one of the many drivers who seemed to have great talent, but once given decent machinery cracked under pressure. Also, I said that he was clearly a talented driver, and that Alonso beating him so hard proves Alonso quality, but that lifting Fisico above what he really is is just exaggerating.

So, please, next time you accuse me of shifting topics or bashing Alonso, check out who wrote what.

Also, this only confirms my 'unfair' comment that you really need to take care of what you say in this topic. Because if you say anything that doesn't make Alonso like best driver of all times you get bashed for not only things you said, but also for things you never said at all.

Edited by velgajski1, 11 July 2012 - 09:06.


#870 Fontainebleau

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:10

I'm sorry man, but now you're just making things up. If you go back a bit you will see that another poster said that Alonso fled away, not me. I'm just disputing that Fisico was one of the best on grid.

Also, I don't recall mentioning Kovalainen myself, someone else did that too. I only later said that Kovalainen (mentioned at that time) was amongst those talented drivers that failed in top team just like Fisico did.

The only thing I wrote is that Fisico was not that good, that he is one of the many drivers who seemed to have great talent, but once given decent machinery cracked under pressure. Also, I said that he was clearly a talented driver, and that Alonso beating him so hard proves Alonso quality, but that lifting Fisico above what he really is is just exaggerating.

So, please, next time you accuse me of shifting topics or bashing Alonso, check out who wrote what.

You are absolutely correct, it was Alarcon who had written that first post I replied to. But somehow, I always seem to end up locking horns with you! I think that we may need to readress this e-relationship of ours...;)

Anyway, then I think that we are talking the same, because my intention was never to prove that Fisichella was the best driver ever, but only that he was much better than what people now make him to have been.

And by the way, I am not a male but a female - I guess that the nick is a bit confusing.

Also, this only confirms my 'unfair' comment that you really need to take care of what you say in this topic. Because if you say anything that doesn't make Alonso like best driver of all times you get bashed for not only things you said, but also for things you never said at all.


I don't think you are right; yes, I did mistake you with somebody else, but then you replied to my post without any thoughts about which was the point I was trying to refute, to start with.

I have no problems with you thinking Alonso is not the best of all times; I would have a problem if you tried to debase his former teammates just to lower Alonso's achievements in an unfair way (which is what Alarcon did, and what I was trying to reply to).

Edited by Fontainebleau, 11 July 2012 - 09:14.


#871 Raelene

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:17

siggghh

QUOTE (velgajski1 @ Jul 10 2012, 08:13)
The bit about Fisico, it was Schumacher voted as 'Best Driver' that year, Fisico won 'Drivers Driver' category which was something like 'greatest driver in weak car' or 'future WDC potential'. It is a bit stretched to use that award to prove something, it was arguably one of his best seasons (lots of point finishes in a really weak car). But overall if you look his career before that (for years in Benneton, not very great results given that Benneton was one of the top 3-4 teams in 90s, with Schumacher winning 2 titles for them) and after that - he didn't really prove to be all that great.

Your reply:

Nope:
"Fisichella beats Schumacher in F1 drivers' poll


now back to Alonso - I don't think he's the best of all time...yet... but he's certainly, IMO, the best in the field at the moment...and again, IMO, by a good margin....

Edited by Raelene, 11 July 2012 - 09:20.


#872 velgajski1

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:20

You are absolutely correct, it was Alarcon who had written that first post I replied to. But somehow, I always seem to end up locking horns with you! I think that we may need to readress this e-relationship of ours...;)

Anyway, then I think that we are talking the same, because my intention was never to prove that Fisichella was the best driver ever, but only that he was much better than what people now make him to have been.

And by the way, I am not a male but a female - I guess that the nick is a bit confusing.



I don't think you are right; yes, I did mistake you with somebody else, but then you replied to my post without any thoughts about which was the point I was trying to refute, to start with.

I have no problems with you thinking Alonso is not the best of all times; I would have a problem if you tried to debase his former teammates just to lower Alonso's achievements in an unfair way (which is what Alarcon did, and what I was trying to reply to).


No problems there 'man'! J/k :)

Also, I'm sure you'll having hard time finding a post in which I try to devalue Alonso achievements, he's best on the grid this season so don't have lots of ammo even if I wanted.


#873 puxanando

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:26

VIDEO

BBC F1 2011 Evolution in 40 years Ferrari

Alonso Vs Lauda




#874 Raelene

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:29

good video but its not Lauda

#875 puxanando

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:31

good video but its not Lauda


Who it is?


#876 Raelene

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:31

Surtees...they even say it in the video

Edited by Raelene, 11 July 2012 - 09:32.


#877 Fontainebleau

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:42

siggghh


Don't siggghh me, and please read again:

The bit about Fisico, it was Schumacher voted as 'Best Driver' that year, Fisico won 'Drivers Driver' category which was something like 'greatest driver in weak car' or 'future WDC potential'. It is a bit stretched to use that award to prove something, it was arguably one of his best seasons (lots of point finishes in a really weak car). But overall if you look his career before that (for years in Benneton, not very great results given that Benneton was one of the top 3-4 teams in 90s, with Schumacher winning 2 titles for them) and after that - he didn't really prove to be all that great.

For me, Fisico was a driver that would have an odd heoric race here and there, but never had consistency needed for a top driver. But he was one of the better teammates Alonso had, so Alonso beating him so hard proves how great Alonso is, but lets not go into exaggerations with how Fisico was a top class driver. IIRC, many people in mid 2000's actually thought Webber to have potential to be fastest/best driver on grid in a right car, but imo - last couple of seasons proved that there are faster/better drivers out there.


Hence my reply:
Nope:
"Fisichella beats Schumacher in F1 drivers' poll"

Now, could you please tell me why would Schumacher have been a contender in the Drivers's Driver poll had it been an award for "greatest driver in weakest car" or "future WDC potential"? You assumed, I don' know why (since I had underlined in the quote the bit I was replying to, just like I did here), that I was referring to the Best Driver award, but that was never discussed.


now back to Alonso - I don't think he's the best of all time...yet... but he's certainly, IMO, the best in the field at the moment...and again, IMO, by a good margin....

On this we can agree :p

Edited by Fontainebleau, 11 July 2012 - 09:45.


#878 aditya-now

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:55

Interesting stuff you mention.

The pressure is on both sides of the garage but more is on Massa to keep up this pace and keep going in the right direction. One thing speaks in his advantage, he's a racing driver and those have a mentality that is tough as hell. If he can manage to stay really close to Alonso, I suspect we might get to see a glimpse of the pressure prone Spaniard again. But for now Fernando is still ahead and he's used to pressure so it might even turn out to be a good thing. Massa's got the right attitude when things are going his way and his normal race in Silverstone proved that.


What do we have there: Alonso taking on the pressure of the whole field, with partly better cars, and succeeding. The more the pressure, the better he performs. Then, based on some utterances and happenings with Fisichella and Hamilton there is this myth that Fernando cannot take the pressure from his team mate.

Well, first of all, this goes back to 2006/2007 and has not shown itself ever since. Secondly, were there maybe other elements in the play that we do not know of, e.g. Flavio Briatore behaving nasty because FA was heading of to McLaren, Ron Dennis behaving nasty because "we are racing Alonso"?

I personally do not buy the myth that Alonso can take the pressure of a Vettel or Hamilton in other cars but cannot take the pressure of his own team mate.


#879 Raelene

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:56

You were told that MS won the Best Driver that year and that fisi won the Drivers Driver by velgajski

You responded to that post with

"Nope..."

so what the hell else am I supposed to think you are talking about!!!

anyway, it's a "nice" award to win - but it does nothing, IMO, to make Alonso look any better - it's not like he beat a WDC. IMO fisi was an ordinary driver nothing more, nothing less.

Anyway, if you are interested in the discussions at the time around that particular award, search popularity contest...it's talked about in numerous threads (once by myself which is why I clearly remembered the discussions..

Now I'm off for the day - goodnight :)

Edited by Raelene, 11 July 2012 - 09:57.


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#880 HPT

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:59

I personally do not buy the myth that Alonso can take the pressure of a Vettel or Hamilton in other cars but cannot take the pressure of his own team mate.


I'm a big Alonso fan but I totally believe that he couldn't take the pressure from being beaten by a team mate back then. He seems to have matured a lot now but I think that characteristic of his will still show if and when the day comes he has a team mate capable of beating him.

When drivers in other cars beat him, it's easy for him to think that it's the car that beat him, not the driver. But when his team mate beats him, it means his team mate is better. That's why it's different. Being beaten by a team mate is infinitely more pressure than being beaten by a guy from another team.

#881 aditya-now

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 10:06

VIDEO

BBC F1 2011 Evolution in 40 years Ferrari

Alonso Vs Lauda


Thanks for the link, was nice to see that again.

In actuality, that was 47 years of evolution (1964 - 2011), and it was interesting to hear John Surtees' note that the cars from the 50s and early 60s were essentially still the same cars like in the 30s, as WWII had come in between and there was not that much advance in technology.

Contrast that with the advance in technology from 1964 to 1984, several worlds and several ages had been passed in just 20 years....

#882 zk12

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 10:07

I'm a big Alonso fan but I totally believe that he couldn't take the pressure from being beaten by a team mate back then. He seems to have matured a lot now but I think that characteristic of his will still show if and when the day comes he has a team mate capable of beating him.

When drivers in other cars beat him, it's easy for him to think that it's the car that beat him, not the driver. But when his team mate beats him, it means his team mate is better. That's why it's different. Being beaten by a team mate is infinitely more pressure than being beaten by a guy from another team.

this is not true. if the teammate beats you. it can also have different reasons. the car suits him (his driving style) better, the tyres suits him better. the racing team of the team mate works better together with the team mate, than the own racing team with oneself.
differernt seasons, and different regulations profits more some drivers than other.
the thing about alonso is, it doesnt matter what the circumstances, he finds a way to be up there.

it would be too easy just to talk about a driver is faster than the other. that can only be witnessed over a period of years. in one year it is extremely hard to recognise this (although sometimes it is possible, when a teammate is extremly slow a la Karthikeyan).

Having said that, i dont think Alonso ever had problems with any of his teammates. In Mclaren he was struggling with Ron, who tried to screw Alonso. Thats it.

Edited by zk12, 11 July 2012 - 10:08.


#883 aditya-now

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 10:09

When drivers in other cars beat him, it's easy for him to think that it's the car that beat him, not the driver. But when his team mate beats him, it means his team mate is better. That's why it's different. Being beaten by a team mate is infinitely more pressure than being beaten by a guy from another team.


You've got a point here. And yes, Fernando has matured a lot meanwhile. In that respect of course it would be interesting to see him paired with Vettel or Hamilton in 2014, but why risk the fireworks? Why risk the team's peace? And also, for Hamilton or Vettel: why enter the lion's den?

Edited by aditya-now, 11 July 2012 - 10:11.


#884 Architrion

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 12:09

Hell of praise words from Darren Heath

"Fernando Alonso is without a shadow of a doubt Formula 1’s top dog right now". He calls Alonso as the main factor why Webber has choosen to compete against Fritz, and not against Alonso and his mood at Ferrari.

The link
Darren Heath Blog

Edited by Architrion, 11 July 2012 - 12:31.


#885 kosmos

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 13:04

Hell of praise words from Darren Heath

"Fernando Alonso is without a shadow of a doubt Formula 1’s top dog right now". He calls Alonso as the main factor why Webber has choosen to compete against Fritz, and not against Alonso and his mood at Ferrari.

The link
Darren Heath Blog


I like this part too:

Indeed, so settled is he in his latin environment that Alonso appears to be perfecting 'sprezzatura’, the Italian art of making the difficult look easy. Winning races with aplomb, loved by his crew, always affable and approachable, often delivering funny one-liners during press briefings, performing magic tricks when asked, fantastic with his the fans – hell, he’s even getting on with Lewis!



I'm a big Alonso fan but I totally believe that he couldn't take the pressure from being beaten by a team mate back then.



Nonsense, why don't you check his result in the second half of 2007 when the relationship with McLaren was already broken?.



#886 SirRacer

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 13:59

I like this part too:

Nonsense, why don't you check his result in the second half of 2007 when the relationship with McLaren was already broken?.


Indeed, someone who breaks down with pressure does not outscore the other driver in the 2nd half part of a championship.

#887 Starlight

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 14:04

Hell of praise words from Darren Heath

"Fernando Alonso is without a shadow of a doubt Formula 1’s top dog right now". He calls Alonso as the main factor why Webber has choosen to compete against Fritz, and not against Alonso and his mood at Ferrari.

The link
Darren Heath Blog

Thanks! Nice article and very nice pictures too!!! :up:

#888 prty

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 14:35

-724 Km bike (28h)
-53 Km run (4h 30m)
-6h Swimming
-2h gym
-10h (tennis, football, etc)

The guy does like sports!! To be fair my life would be something like that if I had a source of money like he has, makes me jealous.

I remember to read from him that, had he not been a driver, he´d have been cyslist. He must thank have such a massive talent driving, because he´s not good enough even to race with amateurs in Spain, the average of his rides is quite poor, despite the time he dedicates to the bike.


Never heard that one.

Edit:
http://www.abc.es/20...1205061740.html

He said both actually. And football player too.



No way. It´s not disrespect saying what I said, amateurs in Spain is just like continental pros in other countries. Alonso´s averaging 25 km/h trainings. Amateurs do average 33/34 km/h on sort of flat -there´s nothing flat in northern Spain :lol: - long trainings, 28/29 on mountain trainings when they go out alone. That without even pushing, in a normal day. Pushing and in a small group the average goes up to racing speed -in the low 40´s range-.

I know that quote, it wasn´t from Sastre, it was from Novoa, another former Cervelo rider. He was just being polite after their training together. Found the article and it´s full of rubbish, to be honest. It´s a Carlos Miquel production. He says they averaged 37, but then says 110 km in 3 and a half hours, which is slightly under 32. Alonso says too "we did 90 kms in 3 hours, it takes 4 usually for me". That´s 23-24 km/h. Anyone familiar with cycling will know that´s nowhere enough to compete at any level.

http://www.as.com/mo...dasdaimot_1/Tes


Alonso has said himself he´d probably be "a local cyclist" -can´t think of an English accurate translation for what he implied- if he wasn´t driver on a race buildup around that training´s date (early 2009) when asked.






Fernando Alonso ‏@alo_oficial
Hi! 28min 43sec to complete the 20.8km of the time trial..;) Another podium this year, with third place..;)) ‪#happy‬ pic.twitter.com/AgwCkdss

According to another forum that's an average of 43 km/h.

Posted Image

Edited by prty, 11 July 2012 - 14:36.


#889 andresitoiniesta

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 14:38

VIDEO

BBC F1 2011 Evolution in 40 years Ferrari

Alonso Vs Lauda



Are you kidding us? This is John Surtees, not Niki Lauda.

#890 radosav

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 15:01

Are you kidding us? This is John Surtees, not Niki Lauda.

i think it is niki lauda

#891 Architrion

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 15:28

i think it is niki lauda


Did you know Niki Lauda doesn't have ears? That's John Surtees because he has ears, he isn't burned to the bones, and it's said in the video that he is John Surtees

Posted Image--- Niki Lauda
Posted Image--- John Surtees

:kiss:

Edited by Architrion, 11 July 2012 - 15:31.


#892 Skinnyguy

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 15:43

Fernando Alonso ‏@alo_oficial
Hi! 28min 43sec to complete the 20.8km of the time trial..;) Another podium this year, with third place..;)) ‪#happy‬ pic.twitter.com/AgwCkdss

According to another forum that's an average of 43 km/h.

Posted Image


But... does anyone follow cycling here? 43 km/h is a poor average for a 20 km TT, just like 24 km/h is a poor average for a normal training!!

To give some perspective, I´ve done 40 km TT on that sort of average with normal road bike and clothes (no aero helmet, no one piece lycra clothes, no lycra boots, no high profile carbon wheels, no TT frame), and I am well under average in TT in amateur field, as I´m a 60 kg bones bag hopeless on flat roads.

#893 prty

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 15:57

Well, he got 3rd place...

#894 Skinnyguy

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 16:02

Well, he got 3rd place...


Yes, what I don´t know is what kind of category he competes at, I didn´t even know he raced at all. :confused:

Only sensible thing I can think of is that he races master-30 class, and that was a local event -because national master 30 races are still quite fast-. Isn´t there any more info on twitter?

#895 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 17:20

But... does anyone follow cycling here? 43 km/h is a poor average for a 20 km TT, just like 24 km/h is a poor average for a normal training!!

This statement makes little sense without knowing the track in question as well as wind, etc. In any case a 43 km/h average is appears not *that* bad, see this list of the fastest [edit]40km[/edit] time trials. They average ca. 53 km/h, but they are professional cyclists.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 11 July 2012 - 17:21.


#896 figue

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 19:57

Wiggins won last tour TT with a 48 km/h average

:drunk:

#897 fabr68

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 20:06

But... does anyone follow cycling here? 43 km/h is a poor average for a 20 km TT, just like 24 km/h is a poor average for a normal training!!

To give some perspective, I´ve done 40 km TT on that sort of average with normal road bike and clothes (no aero helmet, no one piece lycra clothes, no lycra boots, no high profile carbon wheels, no TT frame), and I am well under average in TT in amateur field, as I´m a 60 kg bones bag hopeless on flat roads.


40 km/h on a downhill track does not compare to 43 km/h at an uphill track

#898 Skinnyguy

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 20:16

This statement makes little sense without knowing the track in question as well as wind, etc.


Totally true :up:

In any case a 43 km/h average is appears not *that* bad, see this list of the fastest [edit]40km[/edit] time trials. They average ca. 53 km/h, but they are professional cyclists.


Let´s put this back into context, before this goes out of the window. This debate started because I said "Alonso´s lucky guy to drive as well, because he isn´t good enough to race with amateurs in Spain". I didn´t ever say Alonso wasn´t fit, his numbers look good enough for an average cyclostourist -don´t know the word in English, in Spain that means someone who rides but doesn´t compete-. I said he´s certainly not good enough to race with amateurs, and it looks like that.

Just to clarify, amateurs -Elite/sub23 is we call it here- is a highly competitive category. In the last Spanish national championships, there were 2 "amateurs" that did beat the 3rd best pro time, in exactly the same circuit, the same afternoon. Someone that doesn´t know too much about cycling might think saying "someone not being good enough to ride with amateurs" might be an insult or something, but it´s not the case. Amateurs aren´t a bunch of hopeless fat guys or untalented guys, amateurs is where the stars of the future -and lots former pros without a contract- race. I know the category very well, and all I´ve read about Fernando suggests he wouldn´t be able to end these races.

#899 radosav

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 20:20

Did you know Niki Lauda doesn't have ears? That's John Surtees because he has ears, he isn't burned to the bones, and it's said in the video that he is John Surtees

Posted Image--- Niki Lauda
Posted Image--- John Surtees

:kiss:

it is the same person.

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#900 Hollow

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 20:58

A blind rabbit and a blind turtle collide in the forest.
In order to recognize, they agree to touch each other.
The turtle says:
- Your hair is very soft.
- Your ears are long.
- You have pompom tail.
- I know! You are a rabbit!
The rabbit nods and says:
- Your neck is wrinkled.
- You don't have ears.
- You have helmet.
- I know! You are Niki Lauda!