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Fernando Alonso - Part II


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#1001 zk12

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:04

It is really just a continuation of what he did last season. He scored points in every race bar Canada last year, and got 10 podiums.

classic alonso. for most of the drivers unreachable, for him it is just usual ;)
but you are right, his last season was awesome. this season he juts gets more awareness because he is in the title hunt. i find it somehow unfair.

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#1002 ZuTiMa

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:09

This season it appears Alonso has one thing more than any other driver - luck.


Hell he must be one lucky driver...

Points consecutively ....... 21 (Europe 2011 to Britian 2012) second to Schumi on 24
5th All-time most wins 29 behind Schumi 91, Prost 51, Senna 41, Mansell 31
4th in podiums 78. behind Schumi 155, Prost 106, Senna 80
2nd in all time points 1215 only Schumi ahead of him on 1540

So if he is lucky ...... then Schumi, Prost, senna etc must have been seriously lucky?


#1003 Ferrari2183

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:50

This season it appears Alonso has one thing more than any other driver - luck.

It's almost as if some divine forces were in play in F1 when Ferrari were struggling at the start of the season because they got the best results possible in those races in things beyond their control, with the top teams cannibalizing points off each other resulting in no one building a significant lead.

Then the rain in Malaysia gave him a crucial win in a car that no expert believed had winning potential.

In Valencia both Seb and Lewis had a DNF, which gave Alonso a significant lead in the WDC. Compare this with FP2/Q2(can't remember :p) in Australia when he spun off and everyone thought Ferrari were done for this season.

It's hard to explain but with what's happened so far it almost feels as if Alonso is destined to be WDC this year :p.

Yet you fail to mention that Ferrari as a team maximised what was available to them in terms of strategy, pit stops... Alonso also made up positions at the start in almost all the early races. The only luck he had then was Grosjean's continued crashing, The Mercedes teams continued reliability ailments when it came to Schumacher and McLaren's horrendous pit stops.

You see a trend there? Luck happens once in a while... I would call the above incompetence on the others behalf because it kept on happening and is still happening halfway into the season.

Edited by Ferrari2183, 15 July 2012 - 08:52.


#1004 garoidb

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:51

Hell he must be one lucky driver...

Points consecutively ....... 21 (Europe 2011 to Britian 2012) second to Schumi on 24
5th All-time most wins 29 behind Schumi 91, Prost 51, Senna 41, Mansell 31
4th in podiums 78. behind Schumi 155, Prost 106, Senna 80
2nd in all time points 1215 only Schumi ahead of him on 1540

So if he is lucky ...... then Schumi, Prost, senna etc must have been seriously lucky?


This can hardly be a relevant statistic, unless some allowance is made for changing points systems (wins are now worth 2.5 times what they were).

Over the last year (starting Germany 2011), the points scored for the main drivers are as follows:

SV 288
FA 274
MW 250
JB 211
LH 210

Things have tightened up a lot at the top.



#1005 Fontainebleau

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 09:36

Expert on what?
Button, Sir Williams share a similar opinion to mine.

And others share an entirely different one. Let's see, from the top of my head: Brawn, Minardi, Hamilton, Montezemolo, his fellow racers in the 2010 poll that Bild had amongst them, Patrick Head, Murray Walker...

Are those guys enough of an expert in F1 for you?

#1006 Fontainebleau

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 09:41

This season it appears Alonso has one thing more than any other driver - luck.

It's almost as if some divine forces were in play in F1 when Ferrari were struggling at the start of the season because they got the best results possible in those races in things beyond their control, with the top teams cannibalizing points off each other resulting in no one building a significant lead.

I have a question for you: who is luckier, the guy that manages to make the best of certain unexpected circumstances, or the one that is given a car that is the class of the grid?

Rain, etc, are often considered to be "equalising" factors; or, in other words, they neutralise the "luck" of those who have a better car.

#1007 ali_M

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 10:48

it was not luck that lewis had a dnf in valencia, it was a mistake by lewis, he forgot for one moment, what is more important. and sometimes it is more important to be smart.


I agree there.

in malaysia: not the rain in malaysia gave alonao a crucial win, it was alonsos outstanding drive.
why alonso is leading the championship right now: coz he showed us the most outstanding performanes, in a car which is not predestined to allow that.


I don't know what you mean. I don't know what is meant when drivers take cars where they shouldn't be. Or is it that they take cars where most other drivers can't? No car is taken where it doesn't have the speed etc. to be in a race. If Alonso wins in a car, the car is capable of winning. Period. It's just that Alonso and his team are able to consistently do it if the car is capable. Alonso knows very much, the importance of the team he has working with him and knew since 2011 that the team had improved enough to be capable of exactly what's happening now. Some teams have a car advantage during races and make mistakes or DNF, hence not maximising on potential results. Some teams do not have a car advantage during a race, but fail to maximise on potential points scoring because of mistakes or DNF's. Alonso/Ferrari have kept this to a minimum... the mark of a championship winning campaign.

coming back to malaysia: the malaysia win is far more important than many are recognizing. with that win, he bought ferrari some time to do their work with less pressure from outside, which allowed the team to improve in a stable surrounding.
Without that win, i am sure, that ferrari wouldnt be that strong right now, and due to that, some ppl would have been replaced.
so the malaysia win is maybe one of the most important wins for ferrari in the last couple of years, especially for the stability in the team.


Yeah, the 'mental application and attitude' element. Very true indeed. However, there's more to it since Hamilton got his win but is now back to the struggles, it would seem. Let's see what Germany has in store for us.

#1008 garoidb

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 11:17

I have a question for you: who is luckier, the guy that manages to make the best of certain unexpected circumstances, or the one that is given a car that is the class of the grid?

Rain, etc, are often considered to be "equalising" factors; or, in other words, they neutralise the "luck" of those who have a better car.


Very good point IMO.

#1009 jstrains

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 11:30

Vettel was lucky to be in the right place in the right time, to drive a car designed by the brilliant Newey who is a class of his own. Even a NASA trained monkey would have taken 2 titles with that car. Fernando said many times that driving for Ferrari is a dream of every little boy who plays with cars si lets hope that he can reach for at least one WDC with this dream team.

Edited by jstrains, 15 July 2012 - 11:31.


#1010 Vesuvius

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 11:37

Vettel was lucky to be in the right place in the right time, to drive a car designed by the brilliant Newey who is a class of his own. Even a NASA trained monkey would have taken 2 titles with that car. Fernando said many times that driving for Ferrari is a dream of every little boy who plays with cars si lets hope that he can reach for at least one WDC with this dream team.


In the same way that Alonso was lucky to be in Renault when they designed the best cars. You always need luck and hard work to have a good car. Vettel is still on same level as Alonso as a driver, not as perfect in every aspect (yet) but in few years he will be even better.

#1011 zk12

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 11:44

No car is taken where it doesn't have the speed etc. to be in a race. If Alonso wins in a car, the car is capable of winning.

i understand. what is meant when someone says a driver won in a car which was not expected to do that, or which hasnt really the speed to do that. in that case intelligence and some bravery is needed. but what does that mean? it means a faster car should with the right strategy always (normally) win. and i am not talking about pit stop strategy. i mean the strategy of a driver to read what is needed in what circumstances and to outwise the opponents.
e.g. monaco 2012: although alonso didnt won it and his car was not really the best, he showed what is possible with the right strategy. he didnt follow the front runners for the first ca. 20 laps, savings his tyres to have them at their best, when he needs them.
same goes for valencia. he didnt attack the force india drivers and maldonado in the beginning. he saved his tyres and did it at the end of the stint. and after the safety car, he knew that his only chance to overtake grosjean was right after the start, because lotus is better in tyre saving, and so he risked everything when it was needed.
just a comparison to hamilton: hamilton fought with alonso in silverstone in a situation where it was not needed, and so losing about 0.5-1 sec because of that. after his pitstop he coould have needed this one second. although maybe it didnt cost hamilton in the end anything. it could have. and he was not wise enough in that situation.
e.g. canada: although ferrari made in the end the wrong call: alonso was very clever in tyre saving true all of his stints and in the end of them he gained time on hamilton.
having said that. if the other drivers would have shown that much of racing intelligence, alonso wouldnt be leading right now in the WDC and maybe even wouldnt have a win in this season.

Edited by zk12, 15 July 2012 - 11:51.


#1012 SirRacer

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 12:58

In the same way that Alonso was lucky to be in Renault when they designed the best cars. You always need luck and hard work to have a good car. Vettel is still on same level as Alonso as a driver, not as perfect in every aspect (yet) but in few years he will be even better.

It's certainly luckier to have a dominant car like Brawn '09, RB '10, RB '11 than to have a great car closely matched with another car (Renault '05, '06, McLaren '07)

#1013 Alondra

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 13:05

It's certainly luckier to have a dominant car like Brawn '09, RB '10, RB '11 than to have a great car closely matched with another car (Renault '05, '06, McLaren '07)


Luck, and lucky, seems to be a favourite word for Alonso's detractors.

#1014 Vesuvius

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 13:47

It's certainly luckier to have a dominant car like Brawn '09, RB '10, RB '11 than to have a great car closely matched with another car (Renault '05, '06, McLaren '07)


R25 on the early season was as dominant as Brawn 09. Redbull 2010 Wasn't that dominant, ferrari and mclaren were very close. 2011 red bull was dominant but only in hands of dominant Vettel.

#1015 fabr68

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 13:49

This season it appears Alonso has one thing more than any other driver - luck.


Actually, it is the opposite. Any other driver is very lucky Alonso did not start the 2012 season with the car at its current form. Because if that was the case he would have a much larger point advantage in the WDC.

Alonso was very unlucky the Ferrari F2012 started the season on the backfoot. It was hard work and not luck what he and the team have done to defeat those who had better cars at the time.

Edited by fabr68, 15 July 2012 - 13:50.


#1016 discover23

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 13:55

R25 on the early season was as dominant as Brawn 09. Redbull 2010 Wasn't that dominant, ferrari and mclaren were very close. 2011 red bull was dominant but only in hands of dominant Vettel.

And mclaren was the dominant car from Silverstone to Brazil. (6 wins in 7 races).. But their car was less reliable.

#1017 velgajski1

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 14:06

I would not call Alonso lucky. Some guys had faster cars, Alonso had better crew perhaps, but overall he does the best job this season so far.

#1018 ViMaMo

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 14:09

That's the thing i don't understand either.
Call me mad, but the team i fear the most this year is Ferrari.

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=5563515
_

I think, Ferrari(the car) is not slow.
they - may be - are behind now (just like McLaren last year during testing) , but i have no doubt they will have more room in term of developments during the year.

If you remember 2010 testing period, Ferrari was pounding laps like crazy(just like McLaren is doing now) with great lap times. I don't like all the optimism in the McLaren thread, so i think we will find out only in the first races were Ferrari belong.
It's obvious they are focusing now in the areas where they have problems, so to speak, their ultimate pace is yet to be seen.

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=5563490

_____

I wrote this posts on March(3rd) in the Ferrari thread. :)
May be i should start a F1 magazine or website..


Its very nice to see that you had a much positive outlook for Ferrari while many including me feared the worst. Makes me think that even though Ferrari is hated/Alonso is hated by certain people, they are also feared. Thanks !!

But I would like to point out that, 'room for more developement' statement doesnt mean anything. Ferrari have a new technical director and whose rep was up for shit, for that 2009 car. Honestly, you only feared just because of Ferrari's consistent form other than anything else. Like wise its foolish to ignore RBR or Mclaren at one's peril. Alonso has been a big factor in Ferrari's form this season, might i say that the team has been tremendous in making the car competitive. So lets not just settle at the chicken and egg arguments. Alonso deserves major accolades too.

Edited by ViMaMo, 15 July 2012 - 14:13.


#1019 ASFA2011

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 14:09

Alonso always make his own luck

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#1020 Vesuvius

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 14:25

Alonso always make his own luck



yes he does, with the help of others of course. Alonso has done well this year and is hard to beat, specially now that Ferrari's car is on the top level.

#1021 prty

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 14:41

R25 on the early season was as dominant as Brawn 09.


No, not really.

#1022 SirRacer

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 14:54

R25 on the early season was as dominant as Brawn 09. Redbull 2010 Wasn't that dominant, ferrari and mclaren were very close. 2011 red bull was dominant but only in hands of dominant Vettel.


Posted Image

And that was Button who was getting pole after pole position with the Brawn, the guy who is in average half a second slower than Lewis in Q.

And really, RedBull '10 and '11 is as dominant as a car can get, even in '10 where RB screwed everything they could, they still got both championships.

#1023 ViMaMo

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 14:55

yes he does, with the help of others of course. Alonso has done well this year and is hard to beat, specially now that Ferrari's car is on the top level.


So how would you describe a car contending for the world championship?

Isnt it the driver who takes the honors for winning a race, why cant they bring the whole team to the podium then, going by your thinking? That would be the fair thing to do, and also abolish WDC.

#1024 JeePee

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 15:02

And really, RedBull '10 and '11 is as dominant as a car can get

Yeah, that's why Webber finished second in both championships.

Oh wait...

And how about the MP4/4 or the FW14B?

Edited by JeePee, 15 July 2012 - 15:02.


#1025 SirRacer

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 15:06

Yeah, that's why Webber finished second in both championships.

Oh wait...

And how about the MP4/4 or the FW14B?

He would've if he didn't lose an average of 3-4 positions per race at the starts.

Edited by SirRacer, 15 July 2012 - 15:06.


#1026 katmen

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 17:16

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#1027 SUPRAF1

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 21:03

I have a question for you: who is luckier, the guy that manages to make the best of certain unexpected circumstances, or the one that is given a car that is the class of the grid?

Rain, etc, are often considered to be "equalising" factors; or, in other words, they neutralise the "luck" of those who have a better car.


Alonso and Ferrari did everything perfectly on things they had control over, with good strategy/pits, no silly errors, and exceptional driving.

When I call him lucky, I was referring to things outside his and Ferrari's control.

Luck = preparedness * opportunity, and he was always prepared :p.


#1028 Creepy

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 21:07

Alonso and Ferrari did everything perfectly on things they had control over, with good strategy/pits, no silly errors, and exceptional driving.

When I call him lucky, I was referring to things outside his and Ferrari's control.

Luck = preparedness * opportunity, and he was always prepared :p.


He and Ferrari both worked by theirselves in order to take advantage of those opportunities. I don't see where the luck is in that.

Edited by Creepy, 15 July 2012 - 21:07.


#1029 puxanando

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 21:11

I think Alonso & Ferrari are doing the best job right now - no more nor less.... :)

#1030 Nitropower

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 22:59

So, all this conspiracy sniveling is something you still cling to? I know what I saw on TV - Hamilton had more problems than Alonso, and his problems were real, visible and costly. On the other hand, Alonso had imaginary problems which I didn't even once hear himself saying, just some crap from posters around here.

EOD from my side, I was just explaining why some Alonso fans here think Alonso was lucky to finish 2007. on points with Hamilton.


I mentioned 3 facts not 3 imaginary problems. Tyre pressure in China admitted by the team, Bahrain platform falling onto Alonso's car reported live on Spanish TV during that GP and before the race (and asked to Alonso who didn't want to talk much about it but admited it) and tires in Hungary something everybody saw on TV :)

#1031 Skinnyguy

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 23:47

I mentioned 3 facts not 3 imaginary problems.


Well, there´s plenty of imagination on your post. :rolleyes:

Bahrain incident happened Friday night, and all the damage it did was a broken front wing. It was replaced, and the car did P3, qualified, and raced perfectly fit and healthy.

In Hungary Alonso himself decided to qualify on primes -not for the first time, he had done it in Turkey too-, as you can check by yourself watching how he was using options sets on Q1 and fuel burning face of Q3.


#1032 Nitropower

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 00:33

Well, there´s plenty of imagination on your post. :rolleyes:

In Hungary Alonso himself decided to qualify on primes -not for the first time, he had done it in Turkey too-, as you can check by yourself watching how he was using options sets on Q1 and fuel burning face of Q3.


Plenty of imagination there too :clap: nice assumption but he almost always qualified with options so it's just your way to justify it. But it's ok if you think that's a more likely reason than he was given worse tires :).

#1033 kosmos

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 02:38

I know that some guy here gets mad when people compliment Alonso but I can't help it.

Lauda:

"He's the toughest guy out there and he is also the cleverest," Lauda is quoted as saying by the Mirror. "He knows what to do and after years at Ferrari he has settled in, knows how to be consistent and has kept the team going forward step by step."

"Red Bull have technically caught up too, but all things considered I see Alonso as the most complete driver," he added.

http://thef1times.co.../06436#page_top






#1034 SirRacer

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:25

It's a non-stop arrival of praise from everywhere and everyone. Lewis and the others will have to work very very hard to get close to Alonso.

I just wish he would've had more luck, like getting a Brawn, or a RedBull '10 & '11 kind of dominant car... (or others not to get it, like this year so far...)

#1035 Jejking

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:34

I think Alonso & Ferrari are doing the best job right now - no more nor less.... :)

That is beyond doubt. Alonso is always on it. His last off-day, I can't even remember.

#1036 JeePee

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:38

I just wish he would've had more luck, like getting a Brawn, or a RedBull '10 & '11 kind of dominant car... (or others not to get it, like this year so far...)

He already had in '05 and '06.

And more luck? 30% of his victories are from races where he was driving in second and the leader had a mechanical issue which gave Alonso the win... More luck he says :rotfl:


#1037 Seanspeed

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:43

When people say somebody is lucky, they usually refer to the person immediately behind somebody who retires, ignoring that EVERYBODY in the field gains a position, not just the one.  ;)

#1038 prty

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:48

And more luck? 30% of his victories are from races where he was driving in second and the leader had a mechanical issue which gave Alonso the win... More luck he says :rotfl:


Well, if the leading driver can't take care of his equipment it's not his fault:

http://www.lotusf1te...Strawberry.html

Rene Speksnijder:
 We learned that you are a bit more harsh on the engine then Romain. In which way does that affect the car? Furthermore, how do you like the engine to pick-up regarding your use of the throttle?

KR: I have driven the car and used the throttle in the same way all my career. Every driver has his own style of going fast. This is mine. It is maybe a bit harsh, but it remains within the scope of what the Renault engine can take.


:)


#1039 Skinnyguy

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 13:51

Plenty of imagination there too :clap: nice assumption but he almost always qualified with options so it's just your way to justify it. But it's ok if you think that's a more likely reason than he was given worse tires :).


What you don´t understand? What assumption buddy? Me justifying what, Alonso´s decission? No assumptions or guessing, it´s there for everyone to see: HE was saving that compound for the final Q3 attempts, because he was using options sets in the less important parts of the session. He considered primes better for the Q3 attempt and the first stint, thus wasted other compound sets.

It´s not as if the team suddenly gave him wrong tyres or anything, using that compound was the plan since the session began.

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#1040 SirRacer

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 13:56

He already had in '05 and '06.

And more luck? 30% of his victories are from races where he was driving in second and the leader had a mechanical issue which gave Alonso the win... More luck he says :rotfl:

Can you please go watch again '05, '06, '09, '10 and '11 seasons please. '05 & '06 there was no dominant car, just to equally matched cars (more or less), not the case in '09, '10 & '11

#1041 Skinnyguy

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 13:57

Well, if the leading driver can't take care of his equipment it's not his fault.


:confused:

Are you serious buddy? I can´t think of anyone with a driving style harsher than Alonso back in the mid 2000´s.

Denying how lucky Alonso is most of times is just as shortsighted as denying his inmense skill.





#1042 SirRacer

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 14:02

:confused:

Are you serious buddy? I can´t think of anyone with a driving style harsher than Alonso back in the mid 2000´s.

Denying how lucky Alonso is most of times is just as shortsighted as denying his inmense skill.


Alonso is as lucky as all the others who gained a position behind a driver that was in 1st position and DNF'd.

#1043 Vesuvius

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 14:45

Can you please go watch again '05, '06, '09, '10 and '11 seasons please. '05 & '06 there was no dominant car, just to equally matched cars (more or less), not the case in '09, '10 & '11


You can take 2010 away,red bull,ferrari and mclaren cars were very close in races that year compareable to what you said about 2005 and 2006.

#1044 prty

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 15:05

:confused:

Are you serious buddy? I can´t think of anyone with a driving style harsher than Alonso back in the mid 2000´s.

Denying how lucky Alonso is most of times is just as shortsighted as denying his inmense skill.


Harsh when needed, soft when needed, that's the difference. See Imola 2005 as an excellent example, where Alonso nursed the car home in a damaged engine when in enormous pressure, while Raikkonen was hitting hard the kerbs despite being told not to and thus damaging the driveshaft and retiring. But oh he was so fast!

#1045 SirRacer

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 15:06

You can take 2010 away,red bull,ferrari and mclaren cars were very close in races that year compareable to what you said about 2005 and 2006.

Sure they were

Posted Image

#1046 dreamerBiH

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 15:15

:confused:

Are you serious buddy? I can´t think of anyone with a driving style harsher than Alonso back in the mid 2000´s.

Denying how lucky Alonso is most of times is just as shortsighted as denying his inmense skill.


It depends what we are talking about. Harsh on tires - YES, harsh on enginge - NO

#1047 Vesuvius

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 15:39

Sure they were

Posted Image



I wrote races...were the gap was usually very small not qualifying.
Winners:
Vettel 5
Alonso 5
Webber 4
Hamilton 3
Button 2

Edited by Vesuvius, 16 July 2012 - 15:44.


#1048 Ferrari2183

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 15:57

I wrote races...were the gap was usually very small not qualifying.
Winners:
Vettel 5
Alonso 5
Webber 4
Hamilton 3
Button 2

Some are talking about luck here so Alonso was lucky to win 2 of those which would have went to Vettel, Turkey could have gone to either of the Red Bull drivers. Those are just off the top of my head...

The Red Bull was quite dominant that year. It was only at a handful of tracks where they were really challenged.

#1049 ghost

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 17:40

That is beyond doubt. Alonso is always on it. His last off-day, I can't even remember.

How many of modern drivers can win so many races not starting from pole?

edit: typo

Edited by ghost, 16 July 2012 - 17:41.


#1050 SirRacer

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 17:45

I wrote races...were the gap was usually very small not qualifying.
Winners:
Vettel 5
Alonso 5
Webber 4
Hamilton 3
Button 2


Races invlove a lot more of driver ability to not crash, to overtake, etc etc. Qualifyings are most accurate in defining how good a car is.

But still, Vettel+Webber had by far the most wins.

Edited by SirRacer, 16 July 2012 - 17:45.