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Fernando Alonso - Part II


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#1051 Theturkeyprize

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 17:49

Races invlove a lot more of driver ability to not crash, to overtake, etc etc. Qualifyings are most accurate in defining how good a car is.

But still, Vettel+Webber had by far the most wins.


Didn't know you were a professional race driver...oh wait! :rotfl:

Maybe Vettel and Webber are just better than Alonso? Maybe that's why they won everything for the past 2 years...

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#1052 Vesuvius

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 18:17

Races invlove a lot more of driver ability to not crash, to overtake, etc etc. Qualifyings are most accurate in defining how good a car is.

But still, Vettel+Webber had by far the most wins.



maybe so, but the best driver did win the title anyway despitate the car advantage :up:

Edited by Vesuvius, 16 July 2012 - 18:17.


#1053 prty

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 18:58

Didn't know you were a professional race driver...oh wait! :rotfl:

Maybe Vettel and Webber are just better than Alonso? Maybe that's why they won everything for the past 2 years...


Maybe. What do you think?

#1054 Jejking

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 19:18

Didn't know you were a professional race driver...oh wait! :rotfl:

Maybe Vettel and Webber are just better than Alonso? Maybe that's why they won everything for the past 2 years...

Dude, respond with a level please. Webber had an off-season last year with the EBD, Alonso was very good on soft tyres last year despite the car not a real winner and a sucker on the harder compounds, Vettel was almost always nailing it in 2011. It's ultimately the car is what separated them in the championship.

#1055 Skinnyguy

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 20:19

Alonso is as lucky as all the others who gained a position behind a driver that was in 1st position and DNF'd.


No, he´s luckiest buddy around when that happens. He gets 8 extra points, all the others not even half ot that in the best case.

Not trying to take away anything from Alonso, he´s easily the best driver of the season, he´s been flawless. But not reckoning his luck is blind fanboyism just as not reckoning his driving has been supreme is blind hate.

#1056 Fontainebleau

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 20:36

He already had in '05 and '06.

And more luck? 30% of his victories are from races where he was driving in second and the leader had a mechanical issue which gave Alonso the win... More luck he says :rotfl:

And what next? Vettel is just a lucky guy because he has had the best cars, but he can seldom win when he is not on pole (15/22 wins from pole - 68%), and never if he does not start in the front row? (Forget about the latter, he actually won once starting third). Hamilton's WDC was a lucky win, had Massa not DNF in Hungary he would have won it? Raikkonen's WDC was just due to luck, too, he only won it because of a glitch in Hamilton's McLaren?

Edited by Fontainebleau, 16 July 2012 - 20:45.


#1057 discover23

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 20:47

No, he´s luckiest buddy around when that happens. He gets 8 extra points, all the others not even half ot that in the best case.

Not trying to take away anything from Alonso, he´s easily the best driver of the season, he´s been flawless. But not reckoning his luck is blind fanboyism just as not reckoning his driving has been supreme is blind hate.

To me that is not luck. That is unluck for the leading driver. Alonso just happens to be the best diver of the day excluding the leading driver. Other dnfs from the lead have happened before when Alonso is not involved - Massa in Hungary 08, vettel last year in Canada and other drivers have also collected wins in the same fashion. It is Alonso's consistency with always being at the front fighting for more podiums than anyone else that has kept him leading that statistic.. It has nothing to do with luck as you said but excellence and consistency.

#1058 discover23

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 20:52

He already had in '05 and '06.

And more luck? 30% of his victories are from races where he was driving in second and the leader had a mechanical issue which gave Alonso the win... More luck he says :rotfl:


Lol, where do these stats come from?

You can see the amount of effort and time spent going throught this data to some how try a find a negative for Alonso.


#1059 puxanando

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 21:00

You can see the amount of effort and time spent going throught this data to some how try a find a negative for Alonso.



Some people here try this all the time, but there are the numbers and the statements of experts! So I am not worry....Alonso will be the driver of the year - sure! :)

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#1060 Skinnyguy

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 21:21

To me that is not luck. That is unluck for the leading driver. Alonso just happens to be the best diver of the day excluding the leading driver.


I respect your view. Of course you still have to be up there to capitalize :)

But for me it´s luck for him too. Whoever´s leading can retire on whatever race: or in a race where he retires, or in one he´s 6th... but it usually fails when he´s second. It just happens SO often for him! I can think of an big list of races he won because of other´s failures:

Imola 05, Europe 05, Germany 05, Monaco 06 - he was leading, but was going to end up 3rd/4th without others misfotune-, Suzuka 06, Bahrain 10, Corea 10, Valencia 12. Don´t know if I miss something, I won´t include races he won because of others mech failures on Saturday or Friday, but that adds some more too. Has everyone on the grid such a big CV for this? I don´t think so. And how many times his car failed him leading? 1!! Spa 04. Has any other top driver around such a stat? Even people with less than half his career have this problem way more times!

And please, no one get me wrong: Alonso is awesome. He´s the man right now, he´s on fire, and he will win his third WDC if world is fair... but he IS lucky. A lot. Other´s unreliability gave him one of his titles, and helped him more than any other driver in his two near misses. He´s a lucky boy, and a very talented one too.



#1061 puxanando

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 21:23

he´s on fire

:) :up: Thats right! And will help a lot!!

#1062 Skinnyguy

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 21:26

:) :up: Thats right! And will help a lot!!


Of course he is. He´s on a streak. He hasn´t made big mistakes for ages, and it isn´t exactly because he´s coasting, he´s being as fast as anyone. His season so far is just incredible, if he keeps this level, no one will even smell him for WDC.

#1063 puxanando

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 21:39

he´s being as fast as anyone......


...but with better results! :)


#1064 JeePee

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 22:29

And what next? Vettel is just a lucky guy because he has had the best cars, but he can seldom win when he is not on pole (15/22 wins from pole - 68%), and never if he does not start in the front row? (Forget about the latter, he actually won once starting third). Hamilton's WDC was a lucky win, had Massa not DNF in Hungary he would have won it? Raikkonen's WDC was just due to luck, too, he only won it because of a glitch in Hamilton's McLaren?

You're missing my point. I'm just saying that you can't complain about Alonso having nog enough luck.
(and of course Vettel can only win from pole. He's on P1 every goddamn saterday when his car is capable of winning)

Lol, where do these stats come from?

You can see the amount of effort and time spent going throught this data to some how try a find a negative for Alonso.

Being a Kimi fan for the last 10 years, and a Seb fan during Kimi's WRC adventures, one starts to wonder how many times Alonso has claimed victory over the mechanical issues of you're idol. After Korea '10 I thought 'OMG AGAIN ALONSO?' and I just made a list. Thought it was 31% or something.

#1065 as65p

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 22:37

You're missing my point. I'm just saying that you can't complain about Alonso having nog enough luck.
(and of course Vettel can only win from pole. He's on P1 every goddamn saterday when his car is capable of winning)


Being a Kimi fan for the last 10 years, and a Seb fan during Kimi's WRC adventures, one starts to wonder how many times Alonso has claimed victory over the mechanical issues of you're idol. After Korea '10 I thought 'OMG AGAIN ALONSO?' and I just made a list. Thought it was 31% or something.


Did it help? :D

#1066 radosav

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 22:48

let's look it this way:
how about adrian newey, the myth maker!
he made myths about vettel's and raikkonen's speed with those fast cars he designed for them.
they were always on P1 with those cars and fernando was the only guy that could follow them, so when they made mistake he would use the oportunity and win.

#1067 fabr68

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:04

I respect your view. Of course you still have to be up there to capitalize :)

But for me it´s luck for him too. Whoever´s leading can retire on whatever race: or in a race where he retires, or in one he´s 6th... but it usually fails when he´s second. It just happens SO often for him! I can think of an big list of races he won because of other´s failures:

Imola 05, Europe 05, Germany 05, Monaco 06 - he was leading, but was going to end up 3rd/4th without others misfotune-, Suzuka 06, Bahrain 10, Corea 10, Valencia 12. Don´t know if I miss something, I won´t include races he won because of others mech failures on Saturday or Friday, but that adds some more too. Has everyone on the grid such a big CV for this? I don´t think so. And how many times his car failed him leading? 1!! Spa 04. Has any other top driver around such a stat? Even people with less than half his career have this problem way more times!

And please, no one get me wrong: Alonso is awesome. He´s the man right now, he´s on fire, and he will win his third WDC if world is fair... but he IS lucky. A lot. Other´s unreliability gave him one of his titles, and helped him more than any other driver in his two near misses. He´s a lucky boy, and a very talented one too.


So having a super fast car with poor reliability is being unlucky but having a slower car with good reliability makes you a lucky driver?

To finish first you must first finish. I don't care if the car is five minutes faster than the field. If it breaks down on the fifth lap, it does not mean you deserved to win the race.

On all those ocassions that you mention, Alonso managed to place himself in second after fighting through the field on a car that could not qualify higher. He is as lucky when the other guy's car explode as when the same guy's rocket car lasts for the whole race.

Edited by fabr68, 17 July 2012 - 02:04.


#1068 RedOne

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:08

Alonso is always there to capitilize if he doesn't quite have the tools to win, people calling his wins 100% luck are wrong. They are diminishing all his hard work to get into those positions, ofcourse with winning there has to be a bit luck involved same with every driver but you have to put yourself in those positions by driving the way Alonso has been this season.

He's made his own luck through hard work and masterclass driving and deserves to be leading considering having such a poor car at the start of the season. I hope he wins the WDC, it would be he's sweetest for sure but still a long way to go.

Edited by RedOne, 17 July 2012 - 02:09.


#1069 Starlight

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:41

Dont really understand all this talk about luck. Really? You just deal with what you are handed and get on with it... Thats how it usually works. Now how you deal with it is key on whether you do well or not. That is just what Alonso is doing. To all those who say he's won the most because he's been lucky, will you say the same thing if someone else (or a different person) won each race? I doubt it. What this shows is just that he gets the most of what car he's given, and if something unfortunate happens to the guy leading, he's there to take full advantage of it. I don't think thats luck. Its called hardwork and maximising potential of the what you have been (both equipment and opportunity) given. I guess it can also be called making your own luck.  ;)

#1070 SirRacer

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 07:01

Luck does not exist anyway. It is just a name we put to our inability to predict outcomes.

And outcomes are not the result of luck, but of a rather large cause-effect chain.

#1071 launcher

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 07:09

I think Alonso has been quite unlucky in his career overall. Entered F1 in the middle of the dominant Schumacher/Ferrari era. The moment Schumacher retired, he is confronted with Hamilton, another once in a generation talent. Then he joins Ferrari on a downslide, and during a dominant Adrian Newey era. He's never worked with Newey or any star designer, and only had the best car or even equal , in only a handful of races in his whole career. and spent half his career in midfield cars. When you think about, its quite amazing he has been this successful.

#1072 velgajski1

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 07:18

Like other drivers, he has been neither especiall lucky of unlucky.

For people claiming he is lucky: as some people said here already, he puts himself into a good position, so its not a matter of luck. For people claiming he is unlucky for not driving better cars, that is also not correct - he maybe didn't have fastest cars on grid, but he was usually in cars/teams that are very reliable and still very fast, often fastest. Maybe he didn't work with Adrian Newey, but he was protege Flavio Briatore which is kind of a good thing to be.
Overall, 2 WDC titles is exactly what Alonso deserved up until this point.

Similar things can be said about Vettel, Hamilton, Button, etc. You can be unlucky over a few events, even over a season - but over 5-10 seasons - its less about luck and more about how good you are.

Edited by velgajski1, 17 July 2012 - 07:21.


#1073 velgajski1

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 07:26

And please, no one get me wrong: Alonso is awesome. He´s the man right now, he´s on fire, and he will win his third WDC if world is fair... but he IS lucky. A lot. Other´s unreliability gave him one of his titles, and helped him more than any other driver in his two near misses. He´s a lucky boy, and a very talented one too.


That is not luck, Kimi simply didn't have as reliable equipment (and maybe his driving style also attributed this a bit). Also, as for him winning WDC if world is fair... this I agree only if he drives like this until the end of the season. In 2010. around this time everything was set for Webber/Hamilton battle for WDC - we all know how that ended.

#1074 SirRacer

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 07:33

Overall, 2 WDC titles is exactly what Alonso deserved up until this point.

No, judging from his driving talent, he deserved more.

Maybe he didn't make the right choices when chosing teams, if you do count that, yes he has what he deserved, but if you take that out of the equation and measure only driving talent, he should have more WDC by now

#1075 Cesc

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 07:46

I think Alonso has been quite unlucky in his career overall. Entered F1 in the middle of the dominant Schumacher/Ferrari era. The moment Schumacher retired, he is confronted with Hamilton, another once in a generation talent. Then he joins Ferrari on a downslide, and during a dominant Adrian Newey era. He's never worked with Newey or any star designer, and only had the best car or even equal , in only a handful of races in his whole career. and spent half his career in midfield cars. When you think about, its quite amazing he has been this successful.


In fact, I think Red Bull made an offer to him in 2008 but he decided going to Renault and Ferrari later on (I think the deal was done even by then) so imagine how things would have been with Alonso 3 or 4 years in Red Bull, including 2009, and 2010... In fact, Vettel has been lucky of Alonso deciding not going to Red Bull in 2008. In that case, maybe he wouldn't have had a chance for going there.

#1076 seahawk

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 07:50

If the driver ahead has a DNF because the car brakes down, the driver behind is lucky, but you can only be lucky if you are in that position. Even if Alonso was "lucky" quite often, he was lucky because he put he was right there behind the fastest car / driver combination, often when his car was not as fast.

Luck in this case means making the best out of what you have at hand and Alonso is the best when it comes to that.

#1077 SirRacer

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 07:53

In fact, I think Red Bull made an offer to him in 2008 but he decided going to Renault and Ferrari later on (I think the deal was done even by then) so imagine how things would have been with Alonso 3 or 4 years in Red Bull, including 2009, and 2010... In fact, Vettel has been lucky of Alonso deciding not going to Red Bull in 2008. In that case, maybe he wouldn't have had a chance for going there.

+1

I think Vettel would have gone to RB anyway, but the story would have been very different :lol:

#1078 zk12

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 08:22

What i dont get is the myth that ferrari has maximised what was available and how perfectly they did this year.
To be honest this is untrue.
Ferrari has messed up this year big time and not just once:
they messed up strategy wise and threw away race wins in at least 3 occassions, we can also argue in 4 occassions:
in monaco, in canada, in great britain and maybe in spain.
so out of 9 races they threw away at least 3 race wins, and some try to argue that ferrari have maximised what was available or that they did perfectly this season. how come?
and their strategy in china and bahrain was also by far not perfect and by far not maximising their potential, so 5 out of 9 they at least threw away better positions.
but how come they are still leading the championship in a car, that isnt really capable of doing it.
because alonso maximised what was available, although the team messed up so many times this year.

it is completely not understandable how this myth about ferrari did perfectly or mnaximised what was available came around.

Edited by zk12, 17 July 2012 - 08:24.


#1079 launcher

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 08:24

Ferrari's strategy has been quite ordinary, maybe even substandard, but the perception of it is higher because they have not really screwed up monumentally, only minor.

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#1080 zk12

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 08:26

Ferrari's strategy has been quite ordinary, maybe even substandard, but the perception of it is higher because they have not really screwed up monumentally, only minor.

throwing away at least 3 race wins is not big?

#1081 launcher

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 08:53

each of those cases is debatable. In silverstone for example I don't think ferrari was fast enough on any strategy. Alonso could not make a big enough gap to Webber in the first stint, which was vital.

#1082 hello86

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 09:11

Kudos Alonso! The best driver of the season (so far)! :) :up:
Ferrari is lucky to have him!

#1083 ali_M

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 09:16

What i dont get is the myth that ferrari has maximised what was available and how perfectly they did this year.
To be honest this is untrue.
Ferrari has messed up this year big time and not just once:
they messed up strategy wise and threw away race wins in at least 3 occassions, we can also argue in 4 occassions:
in monaco, in canada, in great britain and maybe in spain.
so out of 9 races they threw away at least 3 race wins, and some try to argue that ferrari have maximised what was available or that they did perfectly this season. how come?
and their strategy in china and bahrain was also by far not perfect and by far not maximising their potential, so 5 out of 9 they at least threw away better positions.
but how come they are still leading the championship in a car, that isnt really capable of doing it.
because alonso maximised what was available, although the team messed up so many times this year.

it is completely not understandable how this myth about ferrari did perfectly or mnaximised what was available came around.


So if they lose a race, they threw it away? You're nice and confident about it from your warm chair. I don't even wish to ask you just what Ferrari should have done and which crystal ball you use of parallel universes that assured you of victory if they had used different strategies. IOW's, you're not aware of the details. You're not aware of the difficulties they faced making decisions without that gift of hind-sight. It's so easy to criticise after the fact. They've been doing very well assisting Alonso to his championship lead.

#1084 zk12

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 09:19

So if they lose a race, they threw it away? You're nice and confident about it from your warm chair. I don't even wish to ask you just what Ferrari should have done and which crystal ball you use of parallel universes that assured you of victory if they had used different strategies. IOW's, you're not aware of the details. You're not aware of the difficulties they faced making decisions without that gift of hind-sight. It's so easy to criticise after the fact. They've been doing very well assisting Alonso to his championship lead.

i was talking about the myth they did perfectly or maximised what was available. and this is just untrue.

#1085 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 09:33

i was talking about the myth they did perfectly or maximised what was available. and this is just untrue.


Then call it "they maximized it within reasonable expectations".

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 17 July 2012 - 09:33.


#1086 zk12

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 09:35

Then call it "they maximized it within reasonable expectations".

keep the word maximized out of it, and i am fine.
they did well within the reasonable expectations, but they didnt maximize anything, neither they were nearly to perfection.

#1087 puxanando

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 09:43

Stella about Alonso:

“The relationship is more solid and we know each other much better,” maintains the Italian. “From my point of view and that of the other engineers, it is important that we know what the driver wants and what he requires to go fast and this aspect has improved in the two and a half years I have been working with Fernando. At the moment, things are going well, so let’s hope it stays like this.”

Stella compare Kimi vs Fernando:

Kimi was very, very quick when the car was operating in a certain window. In this situation he can be the fastest, although when the car was not in that window, he had to work harder to find the optimal point with the car. And with Fernando, his strong point is that, basically, he does not have weak points! He is strong as a driver in the car in all conditions, from dry to extreme wet and outside the car, he is very consistent and strong mentally, which is very important in modern Formula 1.”

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#1088 kosmos

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 10:05

Stella about Alonso:

“The relationship is more solid and we know each other much better,” maintains the Italian. “From my point of view and that of the other engineers, it is important that we know what the driver wants and what he requires to go fast and this aspect has improved in the two and a half years I have been working with Fernando. At the moment, things are going well, so let’s hope it stays like this.”

Stella compare Kimi vs Fernando:

Kimi was very, very quick when the car was operating in a certain window. In this situation he can be the fastest, although when the car was not in that window, he had to work harder to find the optimal point with the car. And with Fernando, his strong point is that, basically, he does not have weak points! He is strong as a driver in the car in all conditions, from dry to extreme wet and outside the car, he is very consistent and strong mentally, which is very important in modern Formula 1.”

WEB



Nothing new, they regurgitated the Scuderia Ferrari Racing News n.11.

#1089 BruisedLee

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 10:18

Regarding how lucky Fernando is... Yes, he is lucky for having finished every race up until now. But what about starting with a mid-field car at the start of the season?

If looked from a different angle, Vettel is really lucky Fernando did not start with a great car, otherwise his chances to win a third title would be really slim by now.

I don't take what I just said seriously, but it shows how you can bend luck to suit any point of view.

Overall, he has not been lucky. Compare to DNFs, rain, pitstops problems, etc., having a noncompetitive car is still the most consistent reason not to win races or get enough points.

In F1 luck tends to even out by the end of the season. What remains is car + driver.

#1090 prty

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 10:34

these things resist getting a meter airborne and landing down in a car as stiff


Yeah, but they don't resist Montoya running over an alternator at 5 km/h in Hungary. And again you start calling names. Like when you were wrong about diffusers :lol:

#1091 ali_M

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 10:36

keep the word maximized out of it, and i am fine.
they did well within the reasonable expectations, but they didnt maximize anything, neither they were nearly to perfection.


Well, on your side then I don't see how you can say they threw away race wins. It's just as extreme a claim as that they maximised on their potential with Alonso.

#1092 zk12

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 10:47

Well, on your side then I don't see how you can say they threw away race wins. It's just as extreme a claim as that they maximised on their potential with Alonso.

this is something that can be said, after we know how the races went. but you are right, that in the situation it was hard to decide. nevertheless they had the opportunity to win more races and made some calls, which turned out to not be the best for the given situation.

#1093 ali_M

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 10:58

this is something that can be said, after we know how the races went. but you are right, that in the situation it was hard to decide. nevertheless they had the opportunity to win more races and made some calls, which turned out to not be the best for the given situation.


Again, this is not certain. Just as Ferrari made a call in Canada that didn't work when they thought it would, you're doing the same by assuming an alternative strategy would have yielded better results. Unless you see the strategy executed, you cannot assume results. Not from outside. If Alonso were one of two cars in the race and traffic wasn't an issue, then you could have a point. Otherwise, it's just 'backseat driving'. Give the 'backseat driver the wheel' and he messes up even more. It's only then that the respect sets in.

Things will naturally never always go to plan. The teams have to be playing with quite unreliable and finicky tire behaviour. They have to take risks. At times it works. At times it will not. This is only natural and not deserving of heavy criticism's about their having thrown away wins. Alonso is at the top of the points tally. For this, both himself AND Ferrari deserve credit. At least Alonso himself gives them a LOT of credit.

#1094 zk12

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 11:07

My intention was not to criticise ferrari. it was just a try to relativise the myth about them being perfect or maximising what was available.
i am very satisfied with them in this season.

Edited by zk12, 17 July 2012 - 11:07.


#1095 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 11:37

If those going on about Alonso's luck could just read the Wikipedia article on luck and its sources, we could stop talking about this frankly ridiculous topic.

#1096 PoleMan

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 12:06

He already had in '05 and '06.

And more luck? 30% of his victories are from races where he was driving in second and the leader had a mechanical issue which gave Alonso the win... More luck he says :rotfl:

Considering that Fernando has driven for 4 different constructors (Minardi, Renault/TWICE, McLaren & Ferrari), the fact that he is ALWAYS THERE is down to his talent and ability to maximize his results, no matter what the machinery. Fernando can always be relied on to consistently get the best out of himself and his car, even when that equipment is not the best...THAT is why he is rated THE BEST by so many!  ;)

As for those wondering what might have happened if McLaren had worked out better, or if he'd decided to go to Red Bull, I don't mind. By going back to Renault in '08, and being the driver to score the most points in the 2nd half of the season, and what he's managed to do at Ferrari over the past 2.5 seasons, has allowed him to show his worth. Vettel's success is still (Unfairly IMO) often put down to a Newey-built car...can't win when not on front row...etc. Even Schumacher, despite his Mega-Success, is still not rated as high as Senna, due to the (lesser)competition he faced, the superior machinery he won in while at the Scuderia (People seem to forget his brilliance at Benetton!), and his unsporting behavior on track. I believe that path Alonso has traveled has given him the opportunity to prove what a legend he was...once we have the chance to look back on, and relish his career. :cool:

#1097 Skinnyguy

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 16:19

Yeah, but they don't resist Montoya running over an alternator at 5 km/h in Hungary. And again you start calling names. Like when you were wrong about diffusers :lol:


If things are like in that discussion, then it´s not me who has to worry about "being wrong" :rolleyes:

And if isn´t, I guess too: After all it´s you who think driveshaft failures caused by "riding curbs" should be considered "driver´s responsabilty". :lol: And even worse, not even in Monza, or Magny-Cours, where they take off lap after lap: in Imola, with flat curbs. :rolleyes: It´s amazing how dumb things fanboyism/hate can make you say.

Driveshafts resist landings from a meter height, and of course they do resist running over obstacles. Hamilton rode one of his own wheels this very year, bounced, landed, and he kept going. If Montoya´s driveshaft failed only because of that, it´s a car problem. If Kimi´s driveshaft failed without any incident at all, and in a circuit with flat curbs, it´s even more certainly a car problem. Trying to spin a mechanical failure into drivers responsability is beyond ridiculous, even more than ridiculous taking all the previous into consideration... but if that´s the terrain where you want to move, it´s OK. :rolleyes:

Edited by Skinnyguy, 17 July 2012 - 16:28.


#1098 velgajski1

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 16:34

As for those wondering what might have happened if McLaren had worked out better, or if he'd decided to go to Red Bull, I don't mind. By going back to Renault in '08, and being the driver to score the most points in the 2nd half of the season, and what he's managed to do at Ferrari over the past 2.5 seasons, has allowed him to show his worth. Vettel's success is still (Unfairly IMO) often put down to a Newey-built car...can't win when not on front row...etc. Even Schumacher, despite his Mega-Success, is still not rated as high as Senna, due to the (lesser)competition he faced, the superior machinery he won in while at the Scuderia (People seem to forget his brilliance at Benetton!), and his unsporting behavior on track. I believe that path Alonso has traveled has given him the opportunity to prove what a legend he was...once we have the chance to look back on, and relish his career. :cool:


The main reason why Senna is rated as same level as Schumacher is because his career ended too early and not through his own fault. It has nothing to do with lesser competition, superior machinery or unsporting behavior. At the time Schumacher was as long in F1 as Senna at time of his tragic death, they were approximately equally successful with 3 titles each and this is the main reason Senna gets rated so highly.

#1099 prty

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 16:42

If things are like in that discussion, then it´s not me who has to worry about "being wrong" :rolleyes:


You can explain again if you wish how if you press a little the throttle it will go to 100% gasses...

And if isn´t, I guess too: After all it´s you who think driveshaft failures caused by "riding curbs" should be considered "driver´s responsabilty". :lol: And even worse, not even in Monza, or Magny-Cours, where they take off lap after lap: in Imola, with flat curbs. :rolleyes: It´s amazing how dumb things fanboyism/hate can make you say.

Driveshafts resist landings from a meter height, and of course they do resist running over obstacles. Hamilton rode one of his own wheels this very year, bounced, landed, and he kept going. If Montoya´s driveshaft failed only because of that, it´s a car problem. If Kimi´s driveshaft failed without any incident at all, and in a circuit with flat curbs, it´s even more certainly a car problem. Trying to spin a mechanical failure into drivers responsability is beyond ridiculous, even more than ridiculous taking all the previous into consideration... but if that´s the terrain where you want to move, it´s OK. :rolleyes:


Look, you keep on insulting, and you are again wrong:

http://www.f1fanatic...-woes-continue/

It emerged later that McLaren had warned Raikkonen not to use the Imola kerbs too aggressively, but that advice had not been heeded. Team mate Wurz brought the car home third.


http://usenet.su/sho...kkonen-at-Imola

"The Imola track is fairly technical and can be tough on the
cars, which means the car needs to be very well set up. One of the main
factors you need to consider in this are the high kerbs
. You need to keep
the car fairly soft so it rides well over the kerbs without affecting high
speed stability or ability to change direction well through the chicanes


So, since you do not deserve replies, don't bother looking for one, at least from me, in this or any other thread.

Edited by prty, 17 July 2012 - 16:47.


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#1100 Ferrari2183

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 16:48

The main reason why Senna is rated as same level as Schumacher is because his career ended too early and not through his own fault. It has nothing to do with lesser competition, superior machinery or unsporting behavior. At the time Schumacher was as long in F1 as Senna at time of his tragic death, they were approximately equally successful with 3 titles each and this is the main reason Senna gets rated so highly.

Excuse me... Senna started racing in 1984 or '85 whereas Scumacher began his career mid '91. At the time of Senna's death, Schumacher hadn't won a championship. He won his first championship the year Senna died.

I'm not taking anything away from Schumacher's success by the way.