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Fernando Alonso - Part II


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#101 Aieljose

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 20:52

You sound like Hamiltons fans, whenever he doesn't win.

They gambled for the win instead of settling for a safe 2nd place, and they lost. It happens.

Yes i know it happens sometimes but im talking about everything in general from abu dhabi 2010, to the car being bad in 2011, to the car being crap again at the start of this season. Overall it must be extremely dissapointing to fernando and im sure he probably regrets his decision. Also think hamilton fans have a right to be annoyed with mclaren given all the mistakes they have made that has cost hamilton this year and last.

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#102 Aieljose

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 20:56

Of course he's just a dummy and had not input at all in the strategy and/or the possibility of changing it during the race, not. You guys are here every day posting and still have no idea that when it comes to tires and specially during the races, drivers have a huge input. The team, and that includes Alonso, made a huge mistake in not reacting quickly.

First of all we don't know who's decision it was to stay out so im not sure how you've decided that it's all alonso's fault. Alonso is a driver not a strategist.

#103 jj2728

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 20:58

Ferrari rolled the dice and lost, plain and simple. It's racing. It happens.

#104 Fontainebleau

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 21:06

Oh, come on! After Monaco they did have to try and have a go at how long tyres would last. It didn't work, but still they got 10 points and are 2nd in the WDC, only 2 points behind the leader. :)


#105 LH08WDC

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 21:11

Good drive from Fernando. Just didn't work out in the end.

#106 as65p

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 21:17

First of all we don't know who's decision it was to stay out so im not sure how you've decided that it's all alonso's fault. Alonso is a driver not a strategist.


You have to understand that cardin is massively impressed by Alonso strategically orchestrating all of his wins and podiums by himself, so it's understandable that today he blames him for not showing his customary brilliance ein that department.

 ;)

#107 Aieljose

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 21:19

I don't think many of you grasp how much of an epic fail we seen from ferrari today. Vettel made up more then 15 seconds in lass than ten laps!! The team was clueless out there today. If they didn't know what to do today how will they react in similar situations?? Misjudging the tires that badly just shows how badly they understand them. They better get on top of it quick.

#108 aditya-now

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 21:34

You sound like Hamiltons fans, whenever he doesn't win.

They gambled for the win instead of settling for a safe 2nd place, and they lost. It happens.


It is indeed what Jacques Villeneuve was saying on Sky - he was very impressed with the Ferrari team for trying to go for the win.

#109 prty

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 21:38

OTOH, they have to think of the bigger picture. Otherwise they can end up like McLaren in 2005.

#110 P123

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 21:41

It is indeed what Jacques Villeneuve was saying on Sky - he was very impressed with the Ferrari team for trying to go for the win.


I think Domenicali stated after the race that they were covering Vettel. They probably didn't quite expect the tyres to go off that much in the end.

#111 as65p

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 21:46

OTOH, they have to think of the bigger picture. Otherwise they can end up like McLaren in 2005.


Ferrari in it's current guise is normally slammed for being too conservative (as recent as Monaco, when they didn't try to pit Alonso later while he was fast). Today they did risk something, shame it didn't pay off, but I really see no reason to blame them when once in a blue moon they gamble for a possible win.

#112 prty

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 21:47

Ferrari in it's current guise is normally slammed for being too conservative (as recent as Monaco, when they didn't try to pit Alonso later while he was fast). Today they did risk something, shame it didn't pay off, but I really see no reason to blame them when once in a blue moon they gamble for a possible win.


I know, just saying that this should be a one off.

Edit: Btw, Gené said that exhausts are the biggest factor now regarding tyre wear. Could be that since they have new exhausts, they misjudged the drop off with their previous data.

Edited by prty, 10 June 2012 - 21:50.


#113 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 21:48

Ferrari in it's current guise is normally slammed for being too conservative (as recent as Monaco, when they didn't try to pit Alonso later while he was fast). Today they did risk something, shame it didn't pay off, but I really see no reason to blame them when once in a blue moon they gamble for a possible win.

they should have pitted him though when it was clear Lewis was going to easily take this and they reached the "cliff".
Had they reacted probably just Romain would have jumped them

#114 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 21:48

I think Domenicali stated after the race that they were covering Vettel. They probably didn't quite expect the tyres to go off that much in the end.

well they failed to cover Vettel...

#115 RedWull

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 21:55

This fu**ing Canada :mad:

2005 - hit the wall, out of the race
2007 - disaster & overtaken by Sato.
2008 - crash during fight with Heidfeld
2009 - nothing bad...? oh yeah, canada wasn't in calendar that year
2010 - backmakers
2011 - collision with Button
2012 - bad strategy

Please, remove this track from the calendar.


Yes let's remove a track from the race calendar simply because FA doesn't have good luck there. While we're at it, let's remove Monza because LH rarely does well there and Siilverstone because JB sucks there.

#116 as65p

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 21:55

It is indeed what Jacques Villeneuve was saying on Sky - he was very impressed with the Ferrari team for trying to go for the win.


Well, good from JV for being able to look at the bigger picture. :up:



#117 Mc_Silver

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 21:57

Yes let's remove a track from the race calendar simply because FA doesn't have good luck there. While we're at it, let's remove Monza because LH rarely does well there and Siilverstone because JB sucks there.


:lol: :lol:

#118 RedWull

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:00

First of all we don't know who's decision it was to stay out so im not sure how you've decided that it's all alonso's fault. Alonso is a driver not a strategist.


Yes but I would have expected him to give sufficient feedback to the team on how the tyres were feeling and his expectation regarding the strategy. Remember the last race at Monaco where LH was telling his race engineer that "at this pace, the tyres won't last the whole stint". Considering FA's significant experience and noting that he's always been very involved in strategy, asking whether the other drivers are and what the other teams are doing, I suspect that all that radio discussion in Spanish between his race engineer and him today was discussing strategy.

So of course it isn't "all" FA's fault. But just as he was commended in the way he paced himself at Monaco, intentionally dropping back behind LH for many laps before suddenly putting in the quick laps to pass him in the pits, he must also wear some responsibility in the wrong judgement that the tyres would last without another pitstop today.

#119 as65p

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:03

I know, just saying that this should be a one off.

Edit: Btw, Gené said that exhausts are the biggest factor now regarding tyre wear. Could be that since they have new exhausts, they misjudged the drop off with their previous data.


Sounds plausible. Really I expect true tyre issues (i.e. massive drop-off) to vanish during the 2nd half of the season. Teams are getting there slowly, soon they'll be able top predict this stuff to the point.

Somewhat ironic, I think Pirelliy main problem might be that the tyres are still safe even after they have become dead slow. In the eighties, the things used to explode when worn off, so nobody would dare to stretch the limits of tyre life as much as we've seen today.

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#120 Skinnyguy

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:06

Somewhat ironic, I think Pirelliy main problem might be that the tyres are still safe even after they have become dead slow. In the eighties, the things used to explode when worn off, so nobody would dare to stretch the limits of tyre life as much as we've seen today.


Leave it like this. Things go exciting when a driver goes into that zone.

I am very impressed with Alonso´s driving. 1/3 of the season gone and he´s still flawless.


#121 as65p

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:09

they should have pitted him though when it was clear Lewis was going to easily take this and they reached the "cliff".
Had they reacted probably just Romain would have jumped them


Probably. TBH I can't recall the gaps that accurately, and I'm too lazy to look it up right now lap by lap. :blush:

In, ahem, hindsight, I remember the sweet spot on live timing being one or two laps after Hamilton had pitted, when the gap was 14.8 secs. Pitting then would have sealed 2nd place, certainly.

#122 Aieljose

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:14

Yes but I would have expected him to give sufficient feedback to the team on how the tyres were feeling and his expectation regarding the strategy. Remember the last race at Monaco where LH was telling his race engineer that "at this pace, the tyres won't last the whole stint". Considering FA's significant experience and noting that he's always been very involved in strategy, asking whether the other drivers are and what the other teams are doing, I suspect that all that radio discussion in Spanish between his race engineer and him today was discussing strategy.

So of course it isn't "all" FA's fault. But just as he was commended in the way he paced himself at Monaco, intentionally dropping back behind LH for many laps before suddenly putting in the quick laps to pass him in the pits, he must also wear some responsibility in the wrong judgement that the tyres would last without another pitstop today.

Hmm i don't know if this actually happened even though it was probably likely. Still i would put most of the blame on the team as they are the experts and the ultimate decision should come down to them. The fact that they (theoretically) agreed to stay out shows they had no idea what to expect and that they didn't do their job as a team. All theoretical ofcourse as we don't know that these discussion even happened.

#123 as65p

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:21

I understand reading comprehension is at a premium on this boards but it still surprises me how bad the lack of it is.


Please edit that post again to give it sense (sort of). May I suggest a "not" between the first "is" and "at"? :p

#124 RedWull

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:22

Hmm i don't know if this actually happened even though it was probably likely. Still i would put most of the blame on the team as they are the experts and the ultimate decision should come down to them. The fact that they (theoretically) agreed to stay out shows they had no idea what to expect and that they didn't do their job as a team. All theoretical ofcourse as we don't know that these discussion even happened.


Hard to say that the team wear most of the responsibiliity. Ultimately it's up to the driver to relay who the tyres are feeling and what they are doing as he is the only one who can feel the grip on the track. The only way I can blame the team is if FA had informed them that the tyres are going away and he doesn't think they will last the stint and he was informed that pitting now would be a disaster and to try and make the best of it without pitting.

For example, JB was commended in Australia 2010 for judging the right time to go from intermediates to dry tyres and thus winning the race. The team relies on the feedback from the driver regarding grip levels and tyre degradation. It does not seem reasonable to me that Ferrari, with all the respect they have for FA, would have ignored any advice from him regarding the condition of the tyres.

As you said, we don't know what was discussed but I'm guessing that the length discussion in Spanish wasn't about what was going to be for dinner that night.

#125 RedWull

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:24

Please edit that post again to give it sense (sort of). May I suggest a "not" between the first "is" and "at"? :p


No, the way he's worded it is correct in the context he intended. Reading comprehension is at a premium i.e means there isn't much reading comprehension. Ironic in light of your reply above too! :p

#126 Anomnader

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:26

Looks like the championship is now becoming clear, Alonso, Vettel and Lewis, unfortunatly it'll probs come down to tyres.

Hopefully lewis and alonso can pull away and make it between themselves.

#127 velgajski1

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:29

Not the best race from Alonso, not that great of a defence against Lewis after first pit-stop and then lacking tyre managament and being overtaken by other 1-stoppers. But Canada was never his strong track anyway.

#128 velgajski1

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:31

Not the best race from Alonso, not that great of a defence against Lewis after first pit-stop and then lacking tyre managament and being overtaken by other 1-stoppers. But Canada was never his strong track anyway.

#129 Aieljose

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:37

Not the best race from Alonso, not that great of a defence against Lewis after first pit-stop and then lacking tyre managament and being overtaken by other 1-stoppers. But Canada was never his strong track anyway.

This is silly. First of all not all cars manage their tires at the exact same rate. Secondly, hamilton drs'd alonso after the first pit stop. How would you properly defend against someone who is 15 km/h+ faster on the straights? Aside from smashing them into the wall, there's not much you can do.

#130 RedWull

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:44

This is silly. First of all not all cars manage their tires at the exact same rate. Secondly, hamilton drs'd alonso after the first pit stop. How would you properly defend against someone who is 15 km/h+ faster on the straights? Aside from smashing them into the wall, there's not much you can do.


I agree with you. FA managed his tyres just fine, the only thing he/team got wrong was misjudging how much longer they can run on them. The length of the stints they got out of the tyres was comparable to, if not better than, LH and SV.

Also agree regarding defense. FA is a great racer and hard but fair. The only way he could have made a stronger defense was if he acted unfairly. LH's pace was so much greater than FA, both times that he passed him. Similarly SV's pace was so much quicker than FA when he passed him.

#131 Menace

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:45

Alonso drove brilliantly, the end result is perhaps sour due to the fact it looked like he might have this one in the bag, but much like Kimi in China there was nothing else he could do.

To consider he is where he is in the WDC standings, he has been driving flawlessly this season. Best driver of the season so far for me! :up:

#132 as65p

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:47

Thank you for proving my point. I know I can always count on you.


Sure you can. :D

Got that wrong, and indeed your phrasing was correct. :up: Hurts a bit to admit such to a pompous bugger, but I got only myself to blame, no question. :wave:

#133 Aieljose

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:48

I agree with you. FA managed his tyres just fine, the only thing he/team got wrong was misjudging how much longer they can run on them. The length of the stints they got out of the tyres was comparable to, if not better than, LH and SV.

Also agree regarding defense. FA is a great racer and hard but fair. The only way he could have made a stronger defense was if he acted unfairly. LH's pace was so much greater than FA, both times that he passed him. Similarly SV's pace was so much quicker than FA when he passed him.

:up: Alonso is sometimes critisized for not defending his position hard enough but i think he is a smart racer who see's the bigger picture who knows when you should defend as hard as possible and when it's not worth the risk. There was nothing he could have done to stop hamilton after the first pitstop. He deployed all his kers after the hairpin and hamilton still got him.

#134 Menace

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:50

Not to mention he could have gotten on the marbles, and we all saw how that worked out for Kimi in China.

He did all he could to minimize the damage...

#135 Henrik B

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 23:00

"We made the decision to try to win the race and it didn't work out, not because of the strategy, but because of the tyre degradation."

Err, Alonso, "strategy" means finding the optimal way of finishing the race as high up the order as possible. When the strategy is made, tyre degradation is the key factor - strategy is the thing you use to AVOID excessive tyre degradation. Your strategy was wrong today. It's like running out of fuel and then saying there was nothing wrong with the amount put in, there was just a problem with fuel consumption...

#136 Anomnader

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 23:09

Lewis on BBC

"I enjoy racing Fernando, he's the best driver here"

#137 RedWull

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 23:15

"We made the decision to try to win the race and it didn't work out, not because of the strategy, but because of the tyre degradation."

Err, Alonso, "strategy" means finding the optimal way of finishing the race as high up the order as possible. When the strategy is made, tyre degradation is the key factor - strategy is the thing you use to AVOID excessive tyre degradation. Your strategy was wrong today. It's like running out of fuel and then saying there was nothing wrong with the amount put in, there was just a problem with fuel consumption...


Read the full interview and timing breakdown from FA. There's a lot of logic in his explanation. After reading his interview, I'm actually impressed with his and Ferrari's thinking. They quickly realised that pitting after LH would have meant a 4th anyway so they decided to gamble for a win and it didn't work out putting them in 5th. That's an acceptable risk/reward scenario. The potential gain was far greater than the potential loss, from the reference point of where they would be had they pitted with LH.

#138 Aieljose

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 23:19

Read the full interview and timing breakdown from FA. There's a lot of logic in his explanation. After reading his interview, I'm actually impressed with his and Ferrari's thinking. They quickly realised that pitting after LH would have meant a 4th anyway so they decided to gamble for a win and it didn't work out putting them in 5th. That's an acceptable risk/reward scenario. The potential gain was far greater than the potential loss, from the reference point of where they would be had they pitted with LH.

That doesn't make any sense. If they had pitted a lap after hamilton did, they would have rejoined right behind him as the gap was about 14 seconds at that point so how do they conclude they would have finished 4th makes no sense to me. Sounds like they are trying to justify their idiotic strategy to be honest. Ferrari are in denial.

Edited by Aieljose, 10 June 2012 - 23:19.


#139 exogenesis1203

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 01:28

That doesn't make any sense. If they had pitted a lap after hamilton did, they would have rejoined right behind him as the gap was about 14 seconds at that point so how do they conclude they would have finished 4th makes no sense to me. Sounds like they are trying to justify their idiotic strategy to be honest. Ferrari are in denial.

yep, right after Lewis came out he is still 4~5second ahead of Grosjean
Alonso could have easily pitted then and together with Lewis breeze past Seb , or at least force Seb to pit and then it will still just stay HAM-ALO-VET

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#140 Nathan

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 02:09

Looks like the championship is now becoming clear, Alonso, Vettel and Lewis, unfortunatly it'll probs come down to tyres.

Is it better it comes down to aerodynamics?

#141 zeph

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 03:09

I for sure thought Ferrari gambled and lost. It seemed to me that they shouldn't have tried the one-stopper.

But Alonso's explanation of the rationale behind that decision seems reasonable enough.

Take a risk, you may end up losing a place or you may win. That is worth a shot.



#142 pkrash

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 03:18

Ferrari tried to cover Vettel thinking of the championship...but then Vettel pitted and Ferrari failed with their strategy once again.
If they wanted to go for the win they should have pitted Alonso a few laps after and gone with reds. His pace would have been better
than Hamilton's and he could have closed the gap.
The worst result certainly wouldn't have been 5th.
Hello Stefano!!!!!

#143 Reinmuster

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 05:07

Ferrari tried to cover Vettel thinking of the championship...


They are trying to win the race, before thinking about the championship.

"I feel good. We tried to win the race," said Alonso


About championship..

"No one is going to win the championship in the seventh race, there's a lot left. But race by race, if you don't score strong points you may start to lose it. So when it comes to points for the championship it's another very good weekend."




#144 seahawk

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 05:19

Canada was the first bad race by Fernando.

#145 SUPRAF1

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 05:25

Strangely Alonso didn't seem frustrated or annoyed at all in the post-race interviews. Also surprising at their strategy falling apart since Ferrari have shown to have relatively sound strategy this year.

#146 RedWull

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 05:56

Canada was the first bad race by Fernando.


How was it a bad race by FA? He didn't make any driving mistakes, he was quicker than his teammate yet again and even after the strategy error he still finished in front of FM. FA's driving was fine.

#147 kosmos

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 06:05

Canada was the first bad race by Fernando.



I don't think so, it was not a bad race by him, just the result didn't matched the car or what fans expected for obvious circustances.

There is some positive stuff from yesterday apart from the car working and being so close to the championship leader. Fernando has finished consecutively in the points in the last 19 races, only Schumacher is above him in the all time ranking with 24 races, Vettel is tie with Fernando.

#148 Creepy

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 06:39

I'm not sad at all I think. Ferrari has a car to fight for the championship now so one "bad" race shouldn't let our hopes go down. Besides, Alonso himself was faultless, their strategy didn't work but we've got to be doing things right if we feel that finishing 5th is a "terrible" result. :wave:

#149 seahawk

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 07:11

I don't think so, it was not a bad race by him, just the result didn't matched the car or what fans expected for obvious circustances.

There is some positive stuff from yesterday apart from the car working and being so close to the championship leader. Fernando has finished consecutively in the points in the last 19 races, only Schumacher is above him in the all time ranking with 24 races, Vettel is tie with Fernando.


I think it was a bad race bcause he and Ferrari started to gamble.

#150 Obi Offiah

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 07:18

How was it a bad race by FA? He didn't make any driving mistakes, he was quicker than his teammate yet again and even after the strategy error he still finished in front of FM. FA's driving was fine.

:up: