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Fernando Alonso - Part II


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#1501 Clatter

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:00

I don't agree it's the third best car - I think it varies NOW between 2nd and 1st depending on conditions and the track.


I think your right. There is no out and out best car.


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#1502 Raelene

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:04

Wait for a completely dry weekend. It is good in the wet (if that is what you mean).

Edit: By the way, I would love to be proved wrong. However, I saw nothing in Hockenheim that made me believe Alonso could have won from a non-front row slot.


I believe Alonso could (and obviously does) win in not the best car.. I think he is that good a driver... I just think some of the fans in here are hyping up the difficiencies in the car just a little...

#1503 Clatter

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:05

Nobody else won from a non-front row slot either.


FA is the only one to have achieved that so far this year.


#1504 garoidb

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:06

Nobody else won from a non-front row slot either.


Yes, but the pole positions were earned in wet conditions so are somewhat anomalous. From a quick check, only two races this year have been won from other than the front row (Malaysia and Valencia) so it is still very important even in this Pirelli / DRS / KERS era.

#1505 Skellen

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:07

Nobody else won from a non-front row slot either.

What about Malaysia and Valencia?

#1506 garoidb

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:10

I believe Alonso could (and obviously does) win in not the best car.. I think he is that good a driver... I just think some of the fans in here are hyping up the difficiencies in the car just a little...


I take that point, but wouldn't you agree that even small deficiencies are being punished more than ever at the moment, particularly at the very front. The advantage of pole position is as high as it has ever been, even though lower grid positions don't seem to matter so much.

#1507 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:17

What about Malaysia and Valencia?


I thought the discussion was about car pace in Hockenheim.

Yes, but the pole positions were earned in wet conditions so are somewhat anomalous. From a quick check, only two races this year have been won from other than the front row (Malaysia and Valencia) so it is still very important even in this Pirelli / DRS / KERS era.


As I said above, I thought were were talking about Hockenheim, and about race pace. What I meant was that I agree that Alonso probably would not have won unless he was first after L1 (either because he started from pole or made the usual rocket start from a lower spot), but at the same time Vettel did not win from grid P2 either. So IMHO even if the Ferrari was not the fastest car in race trim, I don't think it was much slower than the RBR - either car (and add the Macca) could win only by leading from the start.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 24 July 2012 - 09:21.


#1508 Raelene

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:19

see I see this year so close - even in races, the situation changes!! But he doesn't have the "piece" of rubbish car that many here are claiming - the car has improved significantly as the season has gone on.

That said - he's still the best out there at the present time. Best ever - not yet - I still think MSC is ;)



#1509 mainevent

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:24

I don't agree it's the third best car - I think it varies NOW between 2nd and 1st depending on conditions and the track.


Whens it ever been 1st? :confused:

#1510 mainevent

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:30

As for the race pace, they are second to none and don't blow hot or cold depending on track characteristics and weather conditions. They always have front running pace.


Front running pace is quite vague. Did they have front running pace at Valencia when they were slower than Rebull and Lotus? Or Silverstone, slower than Rebull? They is always someone quicker than Ferrari on race day, that is why everyone is saying its 2nd - 3rd best car.

Adam cooper
Benson
Gary anderson
Mclaren
Ferrari

They all say it.

I notice a trend here.

#1511 mainevent

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:33

I think your right. There is no out and out best car.


Redbull has been the fastest car in 4 out of the last 7 races, and about equal in the other 3. Seems pretty obvious its the best.


#1512 Ferrari2183

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 10:03

Front running pace is quite vague. Did they have front running pace at Valencia when they were slower than Rebull and Lotus? Or Silverstone, slower than Rebull? They is always someone quicker than Ferrari on race day, that is why everyone is saying its 2nd - 3rd best car.

Adam cooper
Benson
Gary anderson
Mclaren
Ferrari

They all say it.

I notice a trend here.

This again... I don't care what those people wrote and McLaren have a history of blowing their own trumpet whereas Ferrari always play down their pace and chances. The lap times don't lie!

Yesterday I gave you the Button/Alonso comparison. Today I give you the Button/Massa comparison.

http://en.mclarenf-1.....Jenson Button

Compare the pace of the two during their second stints from about lap 26 onwards... The stint where you believed the McLaren was the significantly faster car.

As you can see the lap times between the 2 are rather similar although Massa is rather inconsistent. We know Button had clean air during this time and for the most part Massa had as well apart from having to overtake here and there due to running at the back. That said, if past performances are anything to go by Alonso could have gone quite a bit quicker than he did and was merely pacing himself.

Furthermore, I suspect that Button was running a rather high engine mode because on lap 39 his engineer is heard telling him that they're good with fuel, keep pushing.

I really hope we can put this to bed now...



#1513 as65p

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 10:14

I get a feeling the Alonso of recent weeks is getting a bit too impressive. Some Tifosi are getting envious that he steals too much credit from the car. :drunk:

What a "problem", considering the doom and gloom back in March. :lol:

#1514 mainevent

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 10:14

The lap times don't lie!


Apart from the ones when Alonso is 'pacing himself' right?

I think we will continue this at Hungary. I would love for Alonso to drive off into the distance and to say the Ferrari was the best car by miles, but I can't see it happening.

Edited by mainevent, 24 July 2012 - 10:15.


#1515 zk12

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 10:15

This again... I don't care what those people wrote and McLaren have a history of blowing their own trumpet whereas Ferrari always play down their pace and chances. The lap times don't lie!

Yesterday I gave you the Button/Alonso comparison. Today I give you the Button/Massa comparison.

http://en.mclarenf-1.....Jenson Button

Compare the pace of the two during their second stints from about lap 26 onwards... The stint where you believed the McLaren was the significantly faster car.

button was faster, what is your point.
and yes lap times can lie, especially if one is on fresher tyres than the other!

Edited by zk12, 24 July 2012 - 10:17.


#1516 zk12

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 10:22

I get a feeling the Alonso of recent weeks is getting a bit too impressive. Some Tifosi are getting envious that he steals too much credit from the car. :drunk:

this is certainly a bullshit. the tifosi should be thankful for alonso doing this, which is more than unexpected regarding the material he has in his hands in contrast to his main rivals.
and if ferrari, e.g. domenicali is that highly thanking alonso, no tifosi should envy alonso, for stealing the show from the car. whether they like it or not, till now the season is more about alonso than the car.
and this is good so.

#1517 Ferrari2183

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 10:23

button was faster, what is your point.
and yes lap times can lie, especially if one is on fresher tyres than the other!

He is the one who is saying the McLaren was much quicker than the Ferrari in the second stint. I just debunked that theory by showing Massa lapping within a tenth of the McLaren during that phase of the race and if Alonso wanted to go quicker he could of. Unless we're now saying that Massa was the faster Ferrari driver...

And I wouldn't exactly call 3 laps fresher rubber a significant advantage especially since it was the prime tyre.

#1518 zk12

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 10:28

He is the one who is saying the McLaren was much quicker than the Ferrari in the second stint. I just debunked that theory by showing Massa lapping within a tenth of the McLaren during that phase of the race and if Alonso wanted to go quicker he could of.

And I wouldn't exactly call 3 laps fresher rubber a significant advantage especially since it was the prime tyre.

it was 5 laps fresher tyres (button in in lap 19, massa in in lap 24) and in this stint button was about 3 tenths faster than massa.


Unless we're now saying that Massa was the faster Ferrari driver...

avg lap times as seen in your link for the second stint:
alonso: 1:21.830
button: 1:21.710
massa: 1:21.989

Edited by zk12, 24 July 2012 - 10:31.


#1519 Clatter

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 10:39

Redbull has been the fastest car in 4 out of the last 7 races, and about equal in the other 3. Seems pretty obvious its the best.


It's up the sharp end, but being beaten. I don't think it's obviously the best at all.

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#1520 Jon83

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 10:40

Wait for a completely dry weekend. It is good in the wet (if that is what you mean).

Edit: By the way, I would love to be proved wrong. However, I saw nothing in Hockenheim that made me believe Alonso could have won from a non-front row slot.


This is getting tedious now.

The McLaren fans (I don't know if you are one of them by the way so this reply isn't directed solely at you) seem to think that McLaren have a car which is faster than anything ever. When asked why, this being the case, they couldn't pass Alonso on a circuit in which overtaking is possible, they fall silent.

Judging by the team radio clips, Alonso was never concerned about Button and also, given the lap time he set in the penultimate lap, I'd say he had a bit in reserve.

I appreciate Button closed the gap. The McLaren pitstops were excellent compared to Alonso's and Vettel's. Button also benefited from Hamilton being involved with the cars in front. Again, this doesn't devalue his speed, just that IMO, it isn't as black and white as some are making out.

Like in Valencia, when Alonso didn't even make Q3, every attempt possible is being made to devalue his victory and frankly, you can't be lucky all the time.

#1521 Ferrari2183

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 10:44

it was 5 laps fresher tyres (button in in lap 19, massa in in lap 24) and in this stint button was about 3 tenths faster than massa.



avg lap times as seen in your link for the second stint:
alonso: 1:21.830
button: 1:21.710
massa: 1:21.989

Yeah, but as I said, Massa was rather inconsistent and my point was to show that Alonso was lapping well off the cars ultimate pace because where Massa was well within a tenth of Button during certain stages Alonso was quite often between 2 - 5 tenths slower...

#1522 mainevent

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 10:47

He is the one who is saying the McLaren was much quicker than the Ferrari in the second stint. I just debunked that theory


lol how can you debunk the theory when from lap 21 -44, Button lapped 0.253 quicker on average? You are totally ignoring all the facts. That's not healthy.

#1523 ali_M

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 11:04

I believe Alonso could (and obviously does) win in not the best car.. I think he is that good a driver... I just think some of the fans in here are hyping up the difficiencies in the car just a little...


Not just a little. That Ferrari is in very good shape now. Alonso is just capitalizing on it in spades, just as we would expect him to.

#1524 zk12

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 11:37

Yeah, but as I said, Massa was rather inconsistent and my point was to show that Alonso was lapping well off the cars ultimate pace because where Massa was well within a tenth of Button during certain stages Alonso was quite often between 2 - 5 tenths slower...

tyres behave different and alonso was in some stages "fighting" ham.
i think that if ferrari was as fast as RBR or Mclaren that Alonso would have find a way to increase the gap.
Ferrari was a little bit slower and Alonso managed to hide that through his outstanding performance.

Edited by zk12, 24 July 2012 - 11:38.


#1525 Cesc

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:44

tyres behave different and alonso was in some stages "fighting" ham.
i think that if ferrari was as fast as RBR or Mclaren that Alonso would have find a way to increase the gap.
Ferrari was a little bit slower and Alonso managed to hide that through his outstanding performance.


Surprisingly, Alonso set his best lap on 66, with 1.19.0... which makes me wonder if he was just defending his position while taking care of his tyres.

#1526 ali_M

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:50

Surprisingly, Alonso set his best lap on 66, with 1.19.0... which makes me wonder if he was just defending his position while taking care of his tyres.


This shouldn't be a surprise considering he finished 5th in Canada and lost the lead at Silverstone because of tire issues towards race end. So he was managing his race.. not struggling to stay ahead of the McLaren and RB in quicker cars.

#1527 as65p

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 15:01

As if anyone in here could judge the speed of the cars down to the last 2 or 3 tenths. It's hilarious to try and prove one way or the other from the outside. The only thing we get is various sides pushing their agendas, which depend on the car being definitely one way or the other according to said agenda. Obviously some rabid Alonso fans would like to evelate FA by deeming the car slower. They sometimes meet with the the true McLaren and RB team fans who would also like their cars faster than Ferrari. On the opposite end we got the McLaren/RB driver fans who of course don't like the idea that their men are beaten by a superior driver in a slower car. This group is joined by the true tifosi who are a bit miffed a driver get's all the credit instead of their beloved team.

A right mess.... :p

And what makes it worse is the respective team insiders, who have a much better idea, can't be trusted cause they obviously have their own agendas...

I really think the only thing we can conclude with certainty is that it's been mighty close the last 5 or so races, with 3, 4, maybe even 5 teams (Sauber) showing very similar speed and potential. I find that pretty exciting.

#1528 crespo

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 15:17

This shouldn't be a surprise considering he finished 5th in Canada and lost the lead at Silverstone because of tire issues towards race end. So he was managing his race.. not struggling to stay ahead of the McLaren and RB in quicker cars.

He seemed to be slowing down a bit in parts of the tire-demanding 3rd sector, which is also a part of the track where it's very difficult to pass. His two final corners, turn 1 and turn 2 were the key to staying in front. That's where he was able to build a gap every lap in order to stay out of reach of those following him, even with DRS. Obviously, Vettel's low top speed hindered his ability to attack, but keeping Button at bay was, IMO, more impressive. Alonso had a great car set-up and action plan, and he (and his team) executed impeccably. He took advantage of the RB's low top speed weakness, and managed his tires enough to quell Button's (and Hamilton's) attack. Smart, fantastic driving.

Edited by crespo, 24 July 2012 - 15:19.


#1529 ali_M

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 15:18

As if anyone in here could judge the speed of the cars down to the last 2 or 3 tenths. It's hilarious to try and prove one way or the other from the outside. The only thing we get is various sides pushing their agendas, which depend on the car being definitely one way or the other according to said agenda. Obviously some rabid Alonso fans would like to evelate FA by deeming the car slower. They sometimes meet with the the true McLaren and RB team fans who would also like their cars faster than Ferrari. On the opposite end we got the McLaren/RB driver fans who of course don't like the idea that their men are beaten by a superior driver in a slower car. This group is joined by the true tifosi who are a bit miffed a driver get's all the credit instead of their beloved team.

A right mess.... :p

And what makes it worse is the respective team insiders, who have a much better idea, can't be trusted cause they obviously have their own agendas...

I really think the only thing we can conclude with certainty is that it's been mighty close the last 5 or so races, with 3, 4, maybe even 5 teams (Sauber) showing very similar speed and potential. I find that pretty exciting.


The only thing I can conclude with certainty, for me at least, is that based on watching Alonso drive with competitive and uncompetitive machinery, there's no doubt in my mind that the Ferrari is very quick now. He's not taking it where it shouldn't be. He's consistently getting very good results with a car capable of those results. It's no small feat to do this consistently, mind you. Vettel's driving last year has been so undervalued because of claims of superior machinery. However, Webber on the other side of the garage couldn't even consistently place 2nd or third where Vettel won. To be winning or finishing high in the points, you need a competitive car. To be consistently doing so you need a consistent driver in a consistently competitive car. That combo is very special. That combo in car and driver over multlple years is very special indeed. Alonso certainly has proven himself as being one of those drivers. It's now up to Ferrari with him to deliver consistently from here to win this championship and more in the future.

Edited by ali_M, 24 July 2012 - 15:20.


#1530 Seanspeed

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 15:37

As if anyone in here could judge the speed of the cars down to the last 2 or 3 tenths. It's hilarious to try and prove one way or the other from the outside. The only thing we get is various sides pushing their agendas, which depend on the car being definitely one way or the other according to said agenda. Obviously some rabid Alonso fans would like to evelate FA by deeming the car slower. They sometimes meet with the the true McLaren and RB team fans who would also like their cars faster than Ferrari. On the opposite end we got the McLaren/RB driver fans who of course don't like the idea that their men are beaten by a superior driver in a slower car. This group is joined by the true tifosi who are a bit miffed a driver get's all the credit instead of their beloved team.

Exactly. :drunk: :up:

There's plenty of credit to go around, though. We can share. :)

Edited by Seanspeed, 24 July 2012 - 15:38.


#1531 Architrion

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 15:37

The only thing I can conclude with certainty, for me at least, is that based on watching Alonso drive with competitive and uncompetitive machinery, there's no doubt in my mind that the Ferrari is very quick now. He's not taking it where it shouldn't be. He's consistently getting very good results with a car capable of those results. It's no small feat to do this consistently, mind you. Vettel's driving last year has been so undervalued because of claims of superior machinery. However, Webber on the other side of the garage couldn't even consistently place 2nd or third where Vettel won. To be winning or finishing high in the points, you need a competitive car. To be consistently doing so you need a consistent driver in a consistently competitive car. That combo is very special. That combo in car and driver over multlple years is very special indeed. Alonso certainly has proven himself as being one of those drivers. It's now up to Ferrari with him to deliver consistently from here to win this championship and more in the future.


absolutely spot on

#1532 as65p

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 18:46

Exactly. :drunk: :up:

There's plenty of credit to go around, though. We can share. :)


:D :up:

#1533 zk12

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 18:52

The only thing I can conclude with certainty, for me at least, is that based on watching Alonso drive with competitive and uncompetitive machinery, there's no doubt in my mind that the Ferrari is very quick now. He's not taking it where it shouldn't be. He's consistently getting very good results with a car capable of those results. It's no small feat to do this consistently, mind you. Vettel's driving last year has been so undervalued because of claims of superior machinery. However, Webber on the other side of the garage couldn't even consistently place 2nd or third where Vettel won. To be winning or finishing high in the points, you need a competitive car. To be consistently doing so you need a consistent driver in a consistently competitive car. That combo is very special. That combo in car and driver over multlple years is very special indeed. Alonso certainly has proven himself as being one of those drivers. It's now up to Ferrari with him to deliver consistently from here to win this championship and more in the future.

he does. and not only in malaysia.

#1534 Lone

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 19:26

The Ferrari is a very good car, among the fastest. I don't believe that Alonso is flattering the car but showing the potential of the car. Massa is nowhere but I believe it's because the car is build to Alonsos preferences which doesn't suit Massa. Massa gets further and further away from Alonsos pace the longer Alonso is a part of Ferrari.

However, this means in no way that Alonso isn't doing great, on the contrary it shows that if Alonso gets the car he wants he is a serious contender for the WDC, and a very very impressive one. He's a guy who gets the job done when the team listens to him. Does that mean he's the fastest driver out there? Does it really matter since he's doing an extraordinary job for the team. He's performing at a level that any team would have him as their number one choice, bar McLaren for obvious reasons and perhaps RBR because they have Adrian Newey.



#1535 as65p

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 19:27

The only thing I can conclude with certainty, for me at least, is that based on watching Alonso drive with competitive and uncompetitive machinery, there's no doubt in my mind that the Ferrari is very quick now. He's not taking it where it shouldn't be. He's consistently getting very good results with a car capable of those results. It's no small feat to do this consistently, mind you. Vettel's driving last year has been so undervalued because of claims of superior machinery. However, Webber on the other side of the garage couldn't even consistently place 2nd or third where Vettel won. To be winning or finishing high in the points, you need a competitive car. To be consistently doing so you need a consistent driver in a consistently competitive car. That combo is very special. That combo in car and driver over multlple years is very special indeed. Alonso certainly has proven himself as being one of those drivers. It's now up to Ferrari with him to deliver consistently from here to win this championship and more in the future.


I still don't see how you can be so absolutely sure of things, like how quick exactly the Ferrari is in relation to the McLaren and RB. Or how, if you judge Vettel to have been undervalued last season bringing Webber as an indicator, you then feel qualified to basically reduce Alonso to 'consistent', presumably ignoring the Massa indicator. You play it safe by saying Alonso "not taking it where it shouldn't be", cause strictly speaking such is not possible for anyone, so the statement is true, yet it's also meaningless.

Maybe consistently getting very good results with a car capable of those results. is the highest praise you ever give to drivers. If so, okay. If not, I'd like to know what more the Alonso of, say, the last three races needs to do to deserve you're highest and unreserved praise.

#1536 puxanando

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 20:22

Exactly. :drunk: :up:

There's plenty of credit to go around, though. We can share. :)

:smoking: :up:

#1537 ali_M

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 21:34

I still don't see how you can be so absolutely sure of things, like how quick exactly the Ferrari is in relation to the McLaren and RB. Or how, if you judge Vettel to have been undervalued last season bringing Webber as an indicator, you then feel qualified to basically reduce Alonso to 'consistent', presumably ignoring the Massa indicator. You play it safe by saying Alonso "not taking it where it shouldn't be", cause strictly speaking such is not possible for anyone, so the statement is true, yet it's also meaningless.

Maybe consistently getting very good results with a car capable of those results. is the highest praise you ever give to drivers. If so, okay. If not, I'd like to know what more the Alonso of, say, the last three races needs to do to deserve you're highest and unreserved praise.


True but not meaningless... I guess you have to pick one since it can't be both. It's far more 'sexy' for supporters to think he puts the car where it shouldn't be because he finds pace in the car that mortals can't.

I'm not imposing my opinion on you anyway. I'm simply expressing my opinion. Since I'm just giving an opinion, I don't need authority or qualifications to give it. What's the basis for my opinion? Well, just watching Alonso closely since I started supporting his cause in 2003 and when I really saw that he had promise in 2004. The guy simply wouldn't give up and would continue to claw his way through the midfield when all seemed to be sleeping/tired during the closing stages of the race. He'd also keep going even after a few offs with loss of aeroparts and bits. We're just seeing a more matured version in competitive machinery. I don't see any magic compared to those other years or 2010 in terms of being able to take a car where it shouldn't be. That's just commentator hype from where I'm sitting. It's one thing to have an unexpected win because of tough competition that failed to win despite everyone doing what they should. It's another to see a driver taking a less competitive car and always somehow being there to take advantage of any messup by the quicker ones. This latter situation IMO, is Alonso's specialty and the only way this can be is if he's consistently high in his performance level. He's always there and he knows how to maintain an advantage by controlling his race. This is why I say that he's consistent. Consistently high performers are the ones that will make less competitive cars win races because the more competitive ones will make little mistakes. It's whether or not the driver/team that's less competitive isn't too far behind to pounce on the opportunity created by a quicker driver/team's error. If this is what is meant then I have no problem with comments about Alonso taking cars where they shouldn't be. On a superficial view, he shouldn't be there, but on deeper assessment, you see exactly how he got there.... opportunity knocked and as usual, he was there to take full advantage and with supreme skill.

Reminds me of Schumi.

Edited by ali_M, 24 July 2012 - 21:40.


#1538 jeze

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 21:57

I prefer to see myself as a realist. Massa beat Räikkönen on points in 2008 and 2009 and scored a few more points overall in the championships from the beginning of 2007 to his crash. What is clear by this is that Massa at least used to be a top driver.

Alonso dashed out the same treatment to Grosjean as he did to Massa. You could argue that Grosjean is a bit better now, but in fact he was a great F3 driver who looked better there than what Vettel did in the same category. Vettel is better today, but you get my point. He was race fit from GP2 by the time he came in and didn't do THAT bad a job. Boy can drive. Piquet also used to be an up and comer who had taken the fight to Lewis in GP2. Remember him? Well Alonso rubbished his reputation and now he's in the third-tier league of NASCAR. I think he could've been a solid F1 driver had he not been paired with Alonso - but with Kovalainen there as a team mate instead.

If we assume that Grosjean has gained a tenth and Massa lost one since 2009 still Alonso would be doing a better job than Räikkönen. Kimi has been a very solid driver and I doubt many team mates on the grid would match him on raw pace, though. That's what makes me feel that the Ferrari is car #4 on pace right now. Since the field is so close one god damn superstar driver can make the difference being the complete package. Fernando is. And he was last year too. That car had no right to be ahead of one of the McLaren's in the standings.

Edited by jeze, 24 July 2012 - 21:59.


#1539 PoleMan

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 22:07

Some of the commentary hear has me yearning for the early days of the season where so many posters could only see doom and gloom for Ferrari. "Scrap the car and plan for 2013, etc, etc." :lol: :lol:

Jeez, can't we just enjoy the season as it appears to be unfolding very well for BOTH Ferrari and Fernando, in addition to the well-earned victory in Germany?

Isn't is obvious that Alonso couldn't be doing what he has been doing without an improving F2012 underneath him? Isn't it equally true that Ferrari wouldn't be where they are in the standings without the sheer brilliance of Alonso? It's those who feel the need to choose who are acting a bit silly. Motor racing is about the blending of man, machine and TEAM! So far, the Scuderia have managed to pull off Mission Impossible by snatching victory from defeat. IMO, they have done that by acting like a team when things were there bleakest. Backing each other up and not criticizing. That, to me, has been the secret of Ferrari's success. :up: Domenicali seemed to acknowledge that with his thank you to Alonso for not ragging on the team when he knew things were bad.

So, can we please stop acting like cannibals around here and just appreciate the DELICIOUSLY GOOD FORTUNE the first half of the season has brought us? ;)

Edited by PoleMan, 24 July 2012 - 22:08.


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#1540 as65p

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 22:12

True but not meaningless... I guess you have to pick one since it can't be both. It's far more 'sexy' for supporters to think he puts the car where it shouldn't be because he finds pace in the car that mortals can't.

I'm not imposing my opinion on you anyway. I'm simply expressing my opinion. Since I'm just giving an opinion, I don't need authority or qualifications to give it. What's the basis for my opinion? Well, just watching Alonso closely since I started supporting his cause in 2003 and when I really saw that he had promise in 2004. The guy simply wouldn't give up and would continue to claw his way through the midfield when all seemed to be sleeping/tired during the closing stages of the race. He'd also keep going even after a few offs with loss of aeroparts and bits. We're just seeing a more matured version in competitive machinery. I don't see any magic compared to those other years or 2010 in terms of being able to take a car where it shouldn't be. That's just commentator hype from where I'm sitting. It's one thing to have an unexpected win because of tough competition that failed to win despite everyone doing what they should. It's another to see a driver taking a less competitive car and always somehow being there to take advantage of any messup by the quicker ones. This latter situation IMO, is Alonso's specialty and the only way this can be is if he's consistently high in his performance level. He's always there and he knows how to maintain an advantage by controlling his race. This is why I say that he's consistent. Consistently high performers are the ones that will make less competitive cars win races because the more competitive ones will make little mistakes. It's whether or not the driver/team that's less competitive isn't too far behind to pounce on the opportunity created by a quicker driver/team's error. If this is what is meant then I have no problem with comments about Alonso taking cars where they shouldn't be. On a superficial view, he shouldn't be there, but on deeper assessment, you see exactly how he got there.... opportunity knocked and as usual, he was there to take full advantage and with supreme skill.

Reminds me of Schumi.


Indeed (to the bolded). For the rest of your post, I understand even less now what's your issue, is it really just that silly phrase? Your assessment of Alonsos virtues seems pretty accurate to me, some journos (and fans) basically just express the same with a technically inaccurate but catchy phrase. Is it really worth the bother fighting that with so many words?

Oh, and I think it's perfectly possible for a statement to be true and meaningless at the same time.

#1541 mainevent

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 22:45

The only thing I can conclude with certainty, for me at least, is that based on watching Alonso drive with competitive and uncompetitive machinery, there's no doubt in my mind that the Ferrari is very quick now. He's not taking it where it shouldn't be.


Its clear that notion is so bitter, and uncomfortable that you and many others simply cannot accept it, no matter how obviously true it is. The entire season has been an display of Alonso taking the car where it should not be, from the very first race, and its still continuing. When a car is beating faster ones it is being taken to where it shouldn't be, that is a simple fundamental.

#1542 mainevent

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 22:49

As if anyone in here could judge the speed of the cars down to the last 2 or 3 tenths. It's hilarious to try and prove one way or the other from the outside.


"It was a very close race from start to finish. We did not have the quickest car. McLaren and Red Bull had a little bit extra but not enough to get past



#1543 mainevent

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 22:52

Exactly. :drunk: :up:

There's plenty of credit to go around, though. We can share. :)


It's not about holding hands, sharing, so every faction is happy and content. What matters is the truth, however uncomfortable it might be for some. The notion we should blur truth and reality to please everyone is quite disgusting actually.

#1544 mainevent

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 23:08

I don't see any magic compared to those other years or 2010 in terms of being able to take a car where it shouldn't be. That's just commentator hype from where I'm sitting. It's one thing to have an unexpected win because of tough competition that failed to win despite everyone doing what they should. It's another to see a driver taking a less competitive car and always somehow being there to take advantage of any messup by the quicker ones. This latter situation IMO, is Alonso's specialty and the only way this can be is if he's consistently high in his performance level. He's always there and he knows how to maintain an advantage by controlling his race. This is why I say that he's consistent. Consistently high performers are the ones that will make less competitive cars win races because the more competitive ones will make little mistakes. It's whether or not the driver/team that's less competitive isn't too far behind to pounce on the opportunity created by a quicker driver/team's error. If this is what is meant then I have no problem with comments about Alonso taking cars where they shouldn't be. On a superficial view, he shouldn't be there, but on deeper assessment, you see exactly how he got there.... opportunity knocked and as usual, he was there to take full advantage and with supreme skill.


The first situation would not be possible if the quicker opposition performed as it should. The latter situation you describe is exactly what everyone means when they talk about a driver putting the car where it should not be. Either through others mistakes or under performance, so It seems like you do agree, but just had a bit of a distorted view on the situation and hate that term. In pretty much every race this year Alonso has profited from mistakes from his rivals to beat them, which is in accordance to your view. Germany was an example of this though. He gained pole in the wet almost certainly because of the better team tactics, and this payed off in the race.

Edited by mainevent, 24 July 2012 - 23:10.


#1545 DaddyCool

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 23:17

You guys are still living in the (not so remote) past, where the 4th best car could mean that you're 1+ secs off the pace.

This year it's more like +0.2/0.3 secs. It's not like either Ferrari, RB or MC is head and shoulders above one another.

#1546 mainevent

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 23:36

Probably true. Nobody is saying Alonso in doing miracles in rubbish, its close, and the last few % can swing things around.

#1547 juandiego

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 00:03

Guia, a forumer from Planet F1-forum, has wrote this piece on Alonso that's worth reading (all credit to her):

Fernando Alonso has never been more effective. If there's a gap, he finds it; if there's an opportunity, he takes it; if it can be done, he does it. Although it is unfair and illogical to say that where Ferrari fall short, Fernando makes up the difference, the difference he makes is nevertheless plain to see and, certainly, not once in 2012 has Fernando been found lacking. Rather, Ferrari are infused with a savvy and focus that look to be a hallmark of Fernando's comprehensive and inscrutable commitment. There is perhaps no better illustration of this than the F2012 itself - once a recalcitrant and confounding drama of conflicting dynamic characteristics, now the development triumph of the season. Would even Ferrari's redoubted resources of engineering expertise have been able to turn so much stagnant water into wine were it not for the contribution and execution of their resident WDC? Would the Scuderia's race team have performed and continue to perform seeming miracles of alchemy with a chassis just barely capable were it not for the imperforate capabilities of their master pilot? If the best efforts from the other side of the garage are anything to go by, the answer has to be no.

Alonso has long been recognised as a multidisciplined driver, and often likened to Michael Schumacher in that regard. But to me at least, any comparison beyond that has always seemed an underappreciation of Michael at the height of his powers. Until now. Because where Alonso's prodigious talents would invariably occasion brilliance, now he relentlessly and failingly conjures unlikely results at every turn. Now, he really does look like Schumacher.

Why the step up? What has given rise to this fruition? Why and how has Alonso upped his game?

Fernando's pole in Hockenheim represents just the latest coup, his continued place at the top of the leaderboard not just the fruits of four months' toil but a flowering of his mastery at every aspect of driving - from technical expertise and adaptability, to leadership and decision-making, to skill and versatility on track. And while his and Ferrari's resurgence are inseparably remarkable, one wonders at the conditions that have allowed for Alonso's peak in form. He's now comfortable and established at Ferrari; his approach is now reflected in the practices of as well as the design and development direction at Maranello; both Ferrari and Alonso are now in a period of growth as they regroup and emerge from previous disappointment. But all of this could have been said in 2011, and ultimately does little to explain how a driver who most thought couldn't get any better has gone and done just that.


Edited by juandiego, 25 July 2012 - 18:12.


#1548 ali_M

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 01:31

Guia, a forumer from Planet F1-forum, has wrote this piece on Alonso that's worth reading (all credits to him):


I like that article, especially the first couple sentences. This got melodramatic about the car, but I also agree with the opinion that he does now seem like Schumi was in his prime.

#1549 ali_M

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 01:36

The first situation would not be possible if the quicker opposition performed as it should. The latter situation you describe is exactly what everyone means when they talk about a driver putting the car where it should not be. Either through others mistakes or under performance, so It seems like you do agree, but just had a bit of a distorted view on the situation and hate that term. In pretty much every race this year Alonso has profited from mistakes from his rivals to beat them, which is in accordance to your view. Germany was an example of this though. He gained pole in the wet almost certainly because of the better team tactics, and this payed off in the race.


Distorted view... what's the benchmark for this presumed distortion? Your own views? :p

I see you're trying to understand where I'm coming from and I appreciate this. Let's try another way. I'd wager that many here praising Alonso for this season would find it difficult to similarly praise Vettel for his season last year. No? or Yes? This is for arguments sake putting the fanboyish blind bias aside. I'm sure many will say that Vettel's car was so quick last year that there was nothing special about what he did.

#1550 akshay380

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:25

This was the last race with you guys. It was the final race, and we have won both championships again. Thank your for all these years, it has been a pleasure for me to work with you with this success, and I wish you the best for the future... As long as the car is not red, I wish you the best!" :confused: