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Fernando Alonso - Part II


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#1551 mainevent

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:43

I'd wager that many here praising Alonso for this season would find it difficult to similarly praise Vettel for his season last year. No? or Yes? This is for arguments sake putting the fanboyish blind bias aside. I'm sure many will say that Vettel's car was so quick last year that there was nothing special about what he did.


Of course they find it difficult to similarly praise Vettel because its comparing apples and oranges, a dominant car to one that's never been quickest in a single race this season, so trying and draw equivalency between them would be an honest objective view. I can see what your thinking. Alonso getting more praise than driver X is not fair and is automatically the result of bias and fanboyism. It doesn't work like that though because praise is based on merit and achievement not political correctness. Nobody would try to equate Mansell's 92 season with Schumachers in 2000, or Senna in 90, or Prosts 86, and thats simply because his season was not as impressive because of the car advantage.

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#1552 HPT

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 03:22

This was the last race with you guys. It was the final race, and we have won both championships again. Thank your for all these years, it has been a pleasure for me to work with you with this success, and I wish you the best for the future... As long as the car is not red, I wish you the best!" :confused:


Sorry dude, not everyone is a perfect human being like you. Cause I'm absolutely sure you've never said anything in the heat of the moment that you might regret some six years ago. We aren't perfect. Will you still play with us?



#1553 Blackmadonna

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 04:12

This was the last race with you guys. It was the final race, and we have won both championships again. Thank your for all these years, it has been a pleasure for me to work with you with this success, and I wish you the best for the future... As long as the car is not red, I wish you the best!" :confused:


That was 6 years ago. Fernando has moved on, Ferrari has moved on, even Tifosi have moved on- how about you?



#1554 jstrains

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 04:20

This was the last race with you guys. It was the final race, and we have won both championships again. Thank your for all these years, it has been a pleasure for me to work with you with this success, and I wish you the best for the future... As long as the car is not red, I wish you the best!" :confused:


Just to turn your quotation around - Yeah one of the most emotional moments for Fernando and all of his fans. I am looking forward to hearing the one after winning the first title with Ferrari.


Posted Image

I think we all make changes in life, and there is nothing wrong about leaving Renault in 2006. If things had worked out in 2007 he would have had 3 WDC :wave:

Edited by jstrains, 25 July 2012 - 04:24.


#1555 kosmos

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 04:44

This was the last race with you guys. It was the final race, and we have won both championships again. Thank your for all these years, it has been a pleasure for me to work with you with this success, and I wish you the best for the future... As long as the car is not red, I wish you the best!" :confused:



You clearly fail to understand why he said that, first because he had a fierce battle against Ferrari including some questionable stuff happening against him, and secondly, he was going to McLaren, Ferrari's historic rival, so it was a wink to McLaren.


Edited by kosmos, 25 July 2012 - 04:49.


#1556 as65p

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 06:02

Distorted view... what's the benchmark for this presumed distortion? Your own views? :p

I see you're trying to understand where I'm coming from and I appreciate this. Let's try another way. I'd wager that many here praising Alonso for this season would find it difficult to similarly praise Vettel for his season last year. No? or Yes? This is for arguments sake putting the fanboyish blind bias aside. I'm sure many will say that Vettel's car was so quick last year that there was nothing special about what he did.


Hm. So that was really your issue all along, Vettel not getting enough praise for your liking last year, respectively Alonso getting too much this year? :well:

#1557 akshay380

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 07:03

You clearly fail to understand why he said that, first because he had a fierce battle against Ferrari including some questionable stuff happening against him, and secondly, he was going to McLaren, Ferrari's historic rival, so it was a wink to McLaren.

Guys cool down. That was just a simple quote and by all means if Alonso is racing like this, I dont want that jinx to come in the way. Luck plays a very big role in F1 right? And this is coming from a LH fan.

#1558 as65p

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 07:24

Guys cool down. That was just a simple quote and by all means if Alonso is racing like this, I dont want that jinx to come in the way. Luck plays a very big role in F1 right? And this is coming from a LH fan.


Not really, says Kimi, and I couldn't agree more with him.

"Luck is nothing to do with it," said Raikkonen. "It's not unlucky if something goes wrong, it's because we did something wrong ourselves.

#1559 walkindude

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 07:29

This was the last race with you guys. It was the final race, and we have won both championships again. Thank your for all these years, it has been a pleasure for me to work with you with this success, and I wish you the best for the future... As long as the car is not red, I wish you the best!" :confused:

You know,I've never seen a video in which he says the bolded part.Am I missing something?

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#1560 Cesc

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 08:00

That was 6 years ago. Fernando has moved on, Ferrari has moved on, even Tifosi have moved on- how about you?

:up:

#1561 jstrains

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 08:14

Here some more impressions from Hockenheim

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#1562 puxanando

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 08:36

Alonso is the very essence of the sort of dynamic natural leader on which Ferrari thrive and the team seem a natural home for this proud, determined man.


Nice to read!

#1563 Alfons

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 09:45

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/18957703

Interesting yet quite wrong at times , frankly. Not a good qualifier is just absurd considering the lap two races and his storming lap at Italy 2010.

BBC did say that they would be having 4 of the current drivers on the list , Hamilton's already made it , Schumacher will on the top 3 maybe, Alonso is now 10th which means they're going to put Vettel ahead of him.

#1564 kosmos

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 09:52

Lauda:

“He reminds me of myself, and a little bit of Prost,”

“We were analytical, and Fernando too has a vision of the race that no one else can match.”


Stewart:

“I am amused with all the polls about who is the best now in formula one, and I am amazed when I see there is doubt. I do not [doubt] Alonso is number one, (he’s) in another dimension to the others,”


Prost:

“Fernando does things calmly, and knows how to get out the most even without the best equipment.”


Villeneuve:

“the only one who makes no mistakes”.

“Yes, obviously he is the big favourite for the title,”


Hill:

“I admire the work done by Ferrari, but that the team is now so competitive is also to his (Alonso’s) credit.”



From Yallaf1.

Not bad for a driver ranked 10th.





#1565 jstrains

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:00

Not bad for a number 10 driver :rotfl:

#1566 Gareth

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:04

Ah come on, 10th all time for a driver who has yet to finish his career is nothing to be sniffed at*.

I expect there is a decent chance that when Alonso's hung up his helmet he'll be a lot higher in these kind of lists. Until then, if I were a fan of his, I'd be perfectly content with 10th.

(*being ranked behind Vettel would be perfectly understandable to have a problem with, mind you)

#1567 juandiego

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:04


[...] there's no doubt in my mind that the Ferrari is very quick now. He's not taking it where it shouldn't be. He's consistently getting very good results with a car capable of those results. [...]

he does. and not only in malaysia.

By definition, absolutely nothing can be beyond what it's capable of —I guess that, theoretically, the car is even capable of better results, but in, so to speak, God's hands. The question, then, should be up to what point he and his driving have made the difference so far. I doubt that there's any current driver, even a top one, who could have drawn the results he has from the Ferrari, and not because they are slower but because Alonso is better in some other aspects related to race-craft and also probably in technical input for the car development on what's driving-related.

So, somewhat, I agree with both of you.

#1568 jstrains

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:09

I think all these rankings are worth nothing and ridiculous. It is not possible to compare uncomparable. For example championship points ranking is worth nothing as they get nowadays more points than in the past. The number of races is higher as well... this BBC list comes to me like an average of personal opinions of the BBC F1 team members. It is the same like we would make here a ranking of our 20 favorite drivers and then count it

#1569 ali_M

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:11

Hm. So that was really your issue all along, Vettel not getting enough praise for your liking last year, respectively Alonso getting too much this year? :well:


It's not that simple.

What did you think of Alonso's race in Canada vs this last one? I thought he and the team did just as well. The tires let them down though.

#1570 garoidb

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:15

he does. and not only in malaysia.

By definition, absolutely nothing can be beyond what it's capable of —I guess that, theoretically, the car is even capable of better results, but in, so to speak, God's hands. The question, then, should be up to what point he and his driving have made the difference so far. I doubt that there's any current driver, even a top one, who could have drawn the results he has from the Ferrari, and not because they are slower but because Alonso is better in some other aspects related to race-craft and also probably in technical input for the car development on what's driving-related.
So, somewhat, I agree with both of you.


I think this is the whole point. These are human beings in competition with each other. Perfection cannot be achieved, or exceeded, so it is a question of how Alonso's contribution compares to what his competitors can do (or rather, what they actually do).

#1571 ali_M

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:16

Not bad for a number 10 driver :rotfl:


Well, historically, the greats of those times were in another dimension etc. compared to their contemporaries then so....

The same quoted comments above... and more... were heaped upon them.

The vividity of the present sure makes the past seem dim and out of focus. But then, there are those who focus so much on the past that they're unable to appreciate the present.

The number 10 is reasonable at this point of his career. If he continues along this path, the vividity of his presence will surely have him placed higher up the order.

Edited by ali_M, 25 July 2012 - 10:17.


#1572 juandiego

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:37

What did you think of Alonso's race in Canada vs this last one? I thought he and the team did just as well. The tires let them down though.

Well, if Alonso had some input on the decision to stay on track and not to pit when Hamilton did —which seemed to me the wrong choice, I'd say that Alonso didn't do just as well, nor Ferrari obviously. If one takes some risk but fails, is not as well as when it's even not necessary to take the risk, however comprehensible taking the risk may have been.

#1573 zk12

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:52

every list about best formula1 drivers in history which doesnt count alonso in the top5 has no credit at all.

Alonso among the best in history

#1574 Megane

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:53

You know,I've never seen a video in which he says the bolded part.Am I missing something?

Who cares, really. People mature. As someone said Alonso was battling against Ferrari and also some stuff happened against him, it was just the heat of the moment, he was thrilled... Past is past, move on!

Havind said, it seems that Renault Team released radio transcript:

"ALO: Thank you guys. Merci, merci à tous. Thank you. You have done a fantastic job all
season, all season
PS: Thank you Fernando.
ALO: This was the last race with you guys. It was the final race, and we have won both
championships again. Thank your for all these years, it has been a pleasure for me to
work with you with this success, and I wish you the best for the future.
PS: We wish you the best too Fernando.
ALO: As long as the car is not red, I wish you the best!
RN: Don’t worry, we’ll never paint it red mate! Absolutely fantastic, it has been a brilliant year, a
brilliant year mate, well done.
RT: It you can make some noise arriving in the pit-lane, it would be good.
ALO: No, no! This engine has to survive, you have to put it in the museum in Viry.
RT: Don’t worry, we will anyway! Thank you, thank you.
RN: Looking forward to seeing you on the dance floor tonight mate!
"
http://www.renault.c...6_EN_Part_1.pdf (page 17)


#1575 zk12

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:55

what is the problem about this "red car" saga?
and why was it brought up here?

#1576 kosmos

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 11:04

what is the problem about this "red car" saga?
and why was it brought up here?


It was brought out of nowhere and probably to upset people here: http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=5843192.

From the link zk12 posted above, can't be a better reply to the all time ranking.

"Don't draw me into comparisons," said Stella when asked if Alonso was performing at seven-time champion Michael Schumacher's level.

"I just think that, when Fernando performs at these levels, there are just a few drivers in history who can stand the comparison.

"You can perhaps count them on the fingers of one hand, and it's not world titles dictating the standings."


He added: "I wouldn't use the concept of perfection, because you can always improve. But I struggle to remember drivers at this level in every condition, as we've seen in Germany. We ran in the rain, in the damp, in the dry and with every kind of tyre: he was always the best."




Smart comment, specially because he is evaluating driving skills and not stats.

#1577 ali_M

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 11:08

Well, if Alonso had some input on the decision to stay on track and not to pit when Hamilton did —which seemed to me the wrong choice, I'd say that Alonso didn't do just as well, nor Ferrari obviously. If one takes some risk but fails, is not as well as when it's even not necessary to take the risk, however comprehensible taking the risk may have been.


And his second place in Britain?

Prost, in a biography I have of him, once said to the effect that F1 is a curious thing. He found it amusing that he'd drive an amazing race in his view to 7th place and no one would care. He would then drive an easy race or a race with mistakes to victory and he would achieve god status.

Alonso is the one in the background that would be praising the team and be happy even when they didn't win. He's the one that was last year claiming the team to be the best and that all they needed as a good car. He was already noting that they were a well oiled team, maximising on their results. We're now seeing that same level of performance now, but the car is just better hence the wins and the championship lead.

A team will make a solid decision and the weather, unpredictable tire behaviour or some other unpredictable factor lets them down. Hindsight can be a hell of a thing.

Perhaps the great thing about Prost and now Alonso is that side of them. They could give themselves and their team a lot of credit even when they didn't win.

When I see Alonso win, I do smile a lot and shake my head at times at the huge uproar because I know he drove his heart out just as much in races that he did not win. Ferrari were just as passionate in races they didn't win. When the win finally comes, they're ecstatic because their efforts have paid off. It's all the sweeter since it's an emphatic demonstration that will reach the record books, but not necessarily all the greater in truth.

I was watching the British GP in 1981 that John Watson won... what a wonderful drive that was.... but who the HELL was John Watson. :drunk:

#1578 PoleMan

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 11:26

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/18957703

Interesting yet quite wrong at times , frankly. Not a good qualifier is just absurd considering the lap two races and his storming lap at Italy 2010.

BBC did say that they would be having 4 of the current drivers on the list , Hamilton's already made it , Schumacher will on the top 3 maybe, Alonso is now 10th which means they're going to put Vettel ahead of him.


No one should take offence at the BBC poll. They surely know the results already, so the tabulations from this season are likely not even taken into account. It's the list of those who have a vote. Just like you and I have shopping lists or laundry lists, what is on the list reflects a personal taste and choice...nothing more.

The comments of living world champions on his performance is probably worth a bit more, considering they know what it takes for him to do what he's doing. :cool:

#1579 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 11:34

I've said before and I'll say it again, I don't care how others rate Alonso. I know he is up there with the greatest of all time and for me that's all that matters.

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#1580 as65p

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 11:38

It's not that simple.

What did you think of Alonso's race in Canada vs this last one? I thought he and the team did just as well. The tires let them down though.


Sure. But what exactly is your issue? Still don't get it. Should he get more praise for Canada, or less praise for Hockenheim, and how does Vettel come into it?

:confused:

#1581 ali_M

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 11:39

Sure. But what exactly is your issue? Still don't get it. Should he get more praise for Canada, or less praise for Hockenheim, and how does Vettel come into it?

:confused:


See this post http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=5843726

#1582 zk12

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 11:45

I dont really understand what ali_M wants to say.
Maybe he can clarify himself and not talk that cryptical.

#1583 as65p

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 11:51

See this post http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=5843726


I had already. So it appears the issue is that you have to shake your head about a win getting more attention than lesser results although both might have been achieved by the same kind of performance, or maybe even the lesser result might have come by a better performance.

I would say that's a fact in many areas of life, well known since the dark ages, but okay.

#1584 juandiego

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 12:02

And his second place in Britain?

Prost, in a biography I have of him, once said to the effect that F1 is a curious thing. He found it amusing that he'd drive an amazing race in his view to 7th place and no one would care. He would then drive an easy race or a race with mistakes to victory and he would achieve god status.

Alonso is the one in the background that would be praising the team and be happy even when they didn't win. He's the one that was last year claiming the team to be the best and that all they needed as a good car. He was already noting that they were a well oiled team, maximising on their results. We're now seeing that same level of performance now, but the car is just better hence the wins and the championship lead.

A team will make a solid decision and the weather, unpredictable tire behaviour or some other unpredictable factor lets them down. Hindsight can be a hell of a thing.

Perhaps the great thing about Prost and now Alonso is that side of them. They could give themselves and their team a lot of credit even when they didn't win.

When I see Alonso win, I do smile a lot and shake my head at times at the huge uproar because I know he drove his heart out just as much in races that he did not win. Ferrari were just as passionate in races they didn't win. When the win finally comes, they're ecstatic because their efforts have paid off. It's all the sweeter since it's an emphatic demonstration that will reach the record books, but not necessarily all the greater in truth.

I was watching the British GP in 1981 that John Watson won... what a wonderful drive that was.... but who the HELL was John Watson. :drunk:

I see your point and I agree, ali_M. We don't know which performance was actually better and perhaps, even with a wrong choice included, some performance was in fact better than other which looks like absolutely brilliant because of a perfect final result.

#1585 puxanando

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 12:03

Jul.25 (GMM) A swathe of world champions have backed Fernando Alonso to collect his third drivers' title in 2012.
Writing in Italy's La Gazzetta dello Sport, veteran correspondent Pino Allievi referred to the Spaniard, runaway championship leader and Hockenheim winner as "a perfect driver".
He said the Ferrari driver has also "sparked the imagination" of his fellow champions, including legends Niki Lauda, Alain Prost, Sir Jackie Stewart, Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve.
"He reminds me of myself, and a little bit of Prost," Austrian Lauda is quoted as saying.
"We were analytical, and Fernando too has a vision of the race that no one else can match."
Another triple world champion, Stewart, agrees.
"I am amused with all the polls about who is the best now in formula one, and I am amazed when I see there is doubt.
"I do not: Alonso is number one, (he's) in another dimension to the others," he said.
Quadruple title winner Prost said: "Fernando does things calmly, and knows how to get out the most even without the best equipment."
1997 champion Villeneuve shared the Renault garage with Alonso for a time, noting that the almost 31-year-old is "the only one who makes no mistakes".
"Yes, obviously he is the big favourite for the title," the French Canadian added.
1996 winner Hill added: "I admire the work done by Ferrari, but that the team is now so competitive is also to his (Alonso's) credit."


WEB

#1586 garoidb

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 12:20

See this post http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=5843726



I was watching the British GP in 1981 that John Watson won... what a wonderful drive that was.... but who the HELL was John Watson. :drunk:


Well, he started the race as an Irishman having dropped down the field, became an Ulsterman as his race position improved and then became the British winner (at least according to the commentary). :)

#1587 garoidb

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 12:29

And his second place in Britain?

Prost, in a biography I have of him, once said to the effect that F1 is a curious thing. He found it amusing that he'd drive an amazing race in his view to 7th place and no one would care. He would then drive an easy race or a race with mistakes to victory and he would achieve god status.

Alonso is the one in the background that would be praising the team and be happy even when they didn't win. He's the one that was last year claiming the team to be the best and that all they needed as a good car. He was already noting that they were a well oiled team, maximising on their results. We're now seeing that same level of performance now, but the car is just better hence the wins and the championship lead.

A team will make a solid decision and the weather, unpredictable tire behaviour or some other unpredictable factor lets them down. Hindsight can be a hell of a thing.

Perhaps the great thing about Prost and now Alonso is that side of them. They could give themselves and their team a lot of credit even when they didn't win.

When I see Alonso win, I do smile a lot and shake my head at times at the huge uproar because I know he drove his heart out just as much in races that he did not win. Ferrari were just as passionate in races they didn't win. When the win finally comes, they're ecstatic because their efforts have paid off. It's all the sweeter since it's an emphatic demonstration that will reach the record books, but not necessarily all the greater in truth.


I also thought Alonso was very impressive in 2011, and was probably driving just as well as he is today. This was not noticed much by the BBC commentators but he was relentless even when the championship was completely out of reach, and by honing his own performance was ready to take advantage of opportunities as they arose in early and mid-2012.

#1588 ensign14

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 12:36

every list about best formula1 drivers in history which doesnt count alonso in the top5 has no credit at all.

You'd have to have him above one of Clark, Fangio, Prost, Stewart or Senna in that case.

Which one?

#1589 Calorus

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 12:50

You'd have to have him above one of Clark, Fangio, Prost, Stewart or Senna in that case.

Which one?


I don't see it -- Alonso is fantastic and all, but like Schumacher, he's one of those drivers who's never beaten anyone who was ever considered great in equal machinery -- For that reason Prost and Senna validate each other -- and for that reason Moss always deserves a mention. There's so much guess work in all of this, but beating Fisichella, Nelson Piquet junior, a nascent Grosjean and Massa just isn't convincing enough for me.

#1590 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 12:55

Fernando Alonso's race engineer Andrea Stella says the Spaniard stands among the best drivers in Formula 1 history.

The Ferrari driver is leading the championship after taking three wins this season despite not always having the fastest car.

Alonso said he felt he was at the peak of his form after some sensational drives in the first half of the 2012 season.

Speaking to Gazzetta dello Sport, Stella reckons there have been very few drivers as good as the two-time champion.

"Don't draw me into comparisons," said Stella when asked if Alonso was performing at seven-time champion Michael Schumacher's level.

"I just think that, when Fernando performs at these levels, there are just a few drivers in history who can stand the comparison.

"You can perhaps count them on the fingers of one hand, and it's not world titles dictating the standings."

He added: "I wouldn't use the concept of perfection, because you can always improve. But I struggle to remember drivers at this level in every condition, as we've seen in Germany. We ran in the rain, in the damp, in the dry and with every kind of tyre: he was always the best."

Stella reiterated Ferrari's belief that its car is still not the quickest, despite Alonso winning the German Grand Prix last weekend.

"We don't think we have the best car in dry conditions yet, but compared to the others we are making better use of what we have at our disposal. A lot of credit for it goes to the driver and to the team."

The Italian reckons the Maranello squad's car has improved around three seconds since pre-season testing, when the team struggled for pace.

"Compared to the first winter tests in Jerez, we have perhaps improved by some three seconds per lap," he said. "But we have more ideas yet.

"There is a continuous development programme, so the parts that get on the track today were decided one or two months ago. In F1 if you stand still it's all over."


http://www.autosport...t.php/id/101489

#1591 as65p

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 13:02

I don't see it -- Alonso is fantastic and all, but like Schumacher, he's one of those drivers who's never beaten anyone who was ever considered great in equal machinery -- For that reason Prost and Senna validate each other -- and for that reason Moss always deserves a mention. There's so much guess work in all of this, but beating Fisichella, Nelson Piquet junior, a nascent Grosjean and Massa just isn't convincing enough for me.


A bit tough on JYS, calling him unconvincing for being beaten by Graham Hill twice and thereafter never having 'considered great' teammates.  ;)

#1592 zk12

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 13:22

I don't see it -- Alonso is fantastic and all, but like Schumacher, he's one of those drivers who's never beaten anyone who was ever considered great in equal machinery -- For that reason Prost and Senna validate each other -- and for that reason Moss always deserves a mention. There's so much guess work in all of this, but beating Fisichella, Nelson Piquet junior, a nascent Grosjean and Massa just isn't convincing enough for me.

hamilton is regarded great, and alonso has beaten hamilton in 2007 in more races than the other way round. so what is your point.

#1593 zk12

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 13:22

You'd have to have him above one of Clark, Fangio, Prost, Stewart or Senna in that case.

Which one?

out of those, first stewart...

#1594 drag

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 13:24

I don't see it -- Alonso is fantastic and all, but like Schumacher, he's one of those drivers who's never beaten anyone who was ever considered great in equal machinery -- For that reason Prost and Senna validate each other -- and for that reason Moss always deserves a mention. There's so much guess work in all of this, but beating Fisichella, Nelson Piquet junior, a nascent Grosjean and Massa just isn't convincing enough for me.


He didnt beat them he dominate them no question about that,and he performed well in second tier cars.

But you have a point i want to see again Hamilton or Vettel vs Alonso in the same team,it might be who knows.

#1595 garoidb

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 13:30

I don't see it -- Alonso is fantastic and all, but like Schumacher, he's one of those drivers who's never beaten anyone who was ever considered great in equal machinery -- For that reason Prost and Senna validate each other -- and for that reason Moss always deserves a mention. There's so much guess work in all of this, but beating Fisichella, Nelson Piquet junior, a nascent Grosjean and Massa just isn't convincing enough for me.


None of the drivers were world champions, granted, but the fact is that their reputations were lowered precisely because Alonso beat them quite convincingly. They all had respectable CVs before being paired with FA. If he didn't beat them by as much, perhaps he would get more credit! I thought Piquet and Grosjean had good potential for respectable F1 careers when teamed with Alonso at Renault, and Grosjean probably will. Circumstances come into this too. Who knew that Massa would be so unconvincing when they were paired up for the 2010 season (although he was quite combative to begin with).

#1596 ali_M

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 13:39

I had already. So it appears the issue is that you have to shake your head about a win getting more attention than lesser results although both might have been achieved by the same kind of performance, or maybe even the lesser result might have come by a better performance.

I would say that's a fact in many areas of life, well known since the dark ages, but okay.


We all too often seem to forget this, though it's right there to see.

We do see this issue come up when drivers are said to be capable of a lot better results once given an opportunity. However, we've seen that this isn't always the case.

OTOH, Alonso has proven that once given the opportunity, he will win and he will keep winning. He is no doubt one of the greats that we see time and again. There will be more to come. He is on the knife/edge in all areas. Wonderful to see. But gee.... the wins can be overhyped. He and Ferrari deserve praise for their campaign this year, in total. Ups/Downs and all. It's been a difficult year with the Pirellis. An outstanding achievement by Alonso/Ferrari to date.

But alas, it's not yet over and whatever the outcome, my praise for them remains.

IMO, Button/McLaren or Hamilton/McLaren are not at the level of Alonso/Ferrari this year so far. Vettel/RBR are not to be underestimated with 10 races to go. I don't know how they'll react to their fall in fortunes with the recent penalty and run of bad press etc. about potential breaches of technical regulations with their car. They also are faced with having to likely change their engine mappings for Hungary. Should be interesting to see what they're like.

Button is on a high now after Sunday, but like from Britain to here, I wouldn't be surprised if McLaren are down the order again come Hungary. OTOH, Alonso/Ferrari should be there or there abouts. I don't know how they manage it with the tyres.

Edited by ali_M, 25 July 2012 - 13:40.


#1597 ali_M

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 13:44

None of the drivers were world champions, granted, but the fact is that their reputations were lowered precisely because Alonso beat them quite convincingly. They all had respectable CVs before being paired with FA. If he didn't beat them by as much, perhaps he would get more credit! I thought Piquet and Grosjean had good potential for respectable F1 careers when teamed with Alonso at Renault, and Grosjean probably will. Circumstances come into this too. Who knew that Massa would be so unconvincing when they were paired up for the 2010 season (although he was quite combative to begin with).


A genuine paradox isn't it?

#1598 ensign14

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 14:00

But you have a point i want to see again Hamilton or Vettel vs Alonso in the same team,it might be who knows.

We did and Alonso lost. ;)

#1599 Cenotaph

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 14:02

We did and Alonso lost.;)


By a total of 0pts

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#1600 ensign14

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 14:08

out of those, first stewart...

27 wins in 99 WC starts (a world record that stood for 15 years), ten miles from winning the Indy 500 as a rookie when it was the best race in the world, three world titles and winning a race in a March? As well as Can-Am race wins and so on.

Even in F1 alone Alonso's achievements are not even close. Took him nearly twice as long to get up to 27 wins. Even taking the Minardi time out it took a lot longer...