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Fernando Alonso - Part II


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#1601 ensign14

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 14:08

By a total of 0pts

They don't ask how much, they just ask how.

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#1602 mknight

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 14:54

They don't ask how much, they just ask how.


Asking how 2007 happened the way it did would just lead to an answer in favour of Alonso anyway.

#1603 1Devil1

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 15:05

every list about best formula1 drivers in history which doesnt count alonso in the top5 has no credit at all.

Alonso among the best in history


:rolleyes: Why should he in the top5? I'm becoming more and more a Alonso fan these days. He reminds me of Schumacher in his best days. With no doubt he is the best on the grid. But as mentioned his career is not over. Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Piquet, Lauda took more titles than him and all of them showed magical performances. Your are not becoming an all-time great because because you are a good driver winning in a good car. Calm down and wait till his career is over.

#1604 Andy35

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 15:08

Don't everyone get carried away now.

:)

Andy

#1605 Andy35

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 15:14

every list about best formula1 drivers in history which doesnt count alonso in the top5 has no credit at all.



This is the Alan Henry Syndrome. Name you top 100 drivers and then suddenly it is completely wrong because the reader wants a different order. This is more telling on how the reader feels than the writer.

Alonso is not even competing in Formula 2 races this year wearing just an open faced helmet and some goggles !

When he starts doing that maybe he can move up the order :p

This is a silly discussion.

Andy

#1606 ali_M

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 15:47

This is the Alan Henry Syndrome. Name you top 100 drivers and then suddenly it is completely wrong because the reader wants a different order. This is more telling on how the reader feels than the writer.

Alonso is not even competing in Formula 2 races this year wearing just an open faced helmet and some goggles !

When he starts doing that maybe he can move up the order :p

This is a silly discussion.

Andy


Different era now. Very competitive and very complex. There's no time or effort left to compete in other categories. This is the way of the world now. The best of the best of now are superspecialised. In the past, the best of the best competed more broadly.

Edited by ali_M, 25 July 2012 - 15:48.


#1607 ensign14

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:05

Asking how 2007 happened the way it did would just lead to an answer in favour of Alonso anyway.

A double world champion should be monstering a rookie.


#1608 Blackmadonna

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:14

A double world champion should be monstering a rookie.


Groundhog day

#1609 as65p

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:18

A double world champion should be monstering a rookie.


A ROOKIE should should drive like a ROOKIE in his 1st, not in his 5th season. :smoking:

#1610 SCUDmissile

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:25

A ROOKIE should should drive like a ROOKIE in his 1st, not in his 5th season. :smoking:

:up: :up:

#1611 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:28

A ROOKIE should should drive like a ROOKIE in his 1st, not in his 5th season. :smoking:


I gotta admit I had a sly grin on my face when I read this comeback! :p

#1612 puxanando

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:41

A ROOKIE should should drive like a ROOKIE in his 1st, not in his 5th season. :smoking:


:up: :up: :up:


#1613 Ferrari2183

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 18:01

A ROOKIE should should drive like a ROOKIE in his 1st, not in his 5th season. :smoking:

One of the best on this forum in ages.

There is a reason he was nicknamed Ramilton last year.

#1614 juandiego

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 18:09

Groundhog day

That movie always recalls to me the stupid song that is sounding while they are about to take the groundhog out of the cage, and the worst part is that it will keep sounding in my head a couple of days or two.. This piece of sh...

#1615 Blackmadonna

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 18:12

That movie always recalls to me the stupid song that is sounding while they are about to take the groundhog out of the cage, and the worst part is that it will keep sounding in my head a couple of days or two.. This piece of sh...



:rotfl: omg not that one again! But this is exactly how i feel when i see the number 2007 appear in this thread!

Can't we open a sticky thread here and call it 'Groundhog day' where forum members can put all postings regarding everything that has been discussed nonstop without ever reaching any kind of possible consensus, going back to the romans?

Edited by Blackmadonna, 25 July 2012 - 18:15.


#1616 ensign14

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 18:30

A ROOKIE should should drive like a ROOKIE in his 1st, not in his 5th season. :smoking:

Off-form and he won 3 races in the second- or third-best car. But that's OT. Alonso may be in the top 10 of F1's all-time right now; he is not in the top five.

#1617 garoidb

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 18:39

Off-form and he won 3 races in the second- or third-best car. But that's OT. Alonso may be in the top 10 of F1's all-time right now; he is not in the top five.


What car, besides the Red Bull, could you possibly think was better than the 2011 McLaren? It won six races.

Agree about Alonso.

#1618 MightyMoose

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 18:54

Ok, we've had the obligatory (and not in a good way) mention/insertion of Hamilton, 2007 etc into a thread where it doesn't belong and there's been a comedy put-down.

Let's leave the trash out there and move forward with the subject please.

If anyone wishes to debate FA's place in the bbc topic, there is a thread for it, where currently you can discuss how he fits in with those below him - that topic is closely monitored with no allowance at this time for discussion of personal top 20's or drivers not already noted, I suspect at the conclusion of this season FA may well justify a higher place.

Thanks
MM

#1619 f1rookie

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 20:35



Championship leader Alonso pleased with strong come-back with new Girl Friend Dasha Kapustina

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Pictures Gallery - Alonso and his new girlfriend Dasha Kapustina at German GP - http://www.formula1o...girlfriend.html






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#1620 fabr68

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 21:25

We will need her at the Ferrari garage for the rest of the season.

#1621 RedOne

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 21:51

Championship leader Alonso pleased with strong come-back with new Girl Friend Dasha Kapustina

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Pictures Gallery - Alonso and his new girlfriend Dasha Kapustina at German GP - http://www.formula1o...girlfriend.html


Like that Hamashima is studying the tyre in the background, keep it up :up:


#1622 kosmos

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 08:36

Some stats from Hungary.

2001 ret (brakes failure)
2003 1st (+pole)
2004 3rd
2005 11th
2006 ret (wheel nut)
2007 4th
2008 4th
2009 ret (+pole) (fuel pump failure)
2010 2rd
2011 3rd


If we take out the retirements, it's pretty good records there, in 2005 I believe he got squeezed down the inside of the first corner and ran up over the kerb, which damaged his front wing.

Let's see what he can do this time, too bad that his only win is so far back.

Edited by kosmos, 26 July 2012 - 08:37.


#1623 kosmos

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 10:01

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#1624 as65p

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 10:04

Everyone appears to do his best to jinx him right now. :p

#1625 aditya-now

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 10:13

Everyone appears to do his best to jinx him right now. :p


Fernando will not be phased by it. He knows his way, and his goal.


#1626 jstrains

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 12:53

Half-time champ 2012 arrives in Budapest

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#1627 puxanando

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 13:19

Vettel: "Fernando is the most complete driver in the world."


German WEB

#1628 Watkins74

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 13:20

Like that Hamashima is studying the tyre in the background, keep it up :up:

I have been wondering if his input has been vital in this turn around for Ferrari.



#1629 garoidb

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 13:28


This "most complete" driver compliment, when given by a younger driver such as Vettel or Hamilton, always seems less than full blooded. I think it carries an implication that the the younger driver will acquire the beneficial attributes once they have more experience. I'm not so sure this will happen. IMO some of Alonso's advantages in terms of leadership, judgement etc are a product of his character and natural talent.

#1630 kosmos

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 13:40

This "most complete" driver compliment, when given by a younger driver such as Vettel or Hamilton, always seems less than full blooded. I think it carries an implication that the the younger driver will acquire the beneficial attributes once they have more experience. I'm not so sure this will happen. IMO some of Alonso's advantages in terms of leadership, judgement etc are a product of his character and natural talent.



Not only that but not every driver can reach their prime and even if they reach it, that doesn't mean that they will be as good as Alonso, they could be better or they could be worst, it's not a science. The thing that is unique in Alonso is his mental strength (forged by the way his career has gone) and also the way he reads the races.

#1631 RedOne

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 13:56

I have been wondering if his input has been vital in this turn around for Ferrari.


I believe it has curtainly helped and will be even more important for future races and cars.

#1632 RedOne

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 13:58

This "most complete" driver compliment, when given by a younger driver such as Vettel or Hamilton, always seems less than full blooded. I think it carries an implication that the the younger driver will acquire the beneficial attributes once they have more experience. I'm not so sure this will happen. IMO some of Alonso's advantages in terms of leadership, judgement etc are a product of his character and natural talent.


+1

#1633 as65p

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 15:29

This "most complete" driver compliment, when given by a younger driver such as Vettel or Hamilton, always seems less than full blooded. I think it carries an implication that the the younger driver will acquire the beneficial attributes once they have more experience. I'm not so sure this will happen. IMO some of Alonso's advantages in terms of leadership, judgement etc are a product of his character and natural talent.


I would even go a step further. I don't think drivers change all that much from the point they arrive in F1. They'll gain experience which will allow them a few shortcuts and should help avoiding mistakes, but that's about it. The talent for different areas of the job, the working style, strenghts and weaknesses, IMO all that stays roughly the same throughout a drivers career.

#1634 ali_M

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 15:42

I would even go a step further. I don't think drivers change all that much from the point they arrive in F1. They'll gain experience which will allow them a few shortcuts and should help avoiding mistakes, but that's about it. The talent for different areas of the job, the working style, strenghts and weaknesses, IMO all that stays roughly the same throughout a drivers career.


Yes. The basic, fundamental qualities remain the same. Very difficult to change them. Alonso is still the Alonso I knew back in 2003. He's just more refined and matured.

There are exceptions I'd think. I think Hamilton is fundamentally changing in attitude. ATM, it seems forced, and not yet natural. He's trying a new approach, it would seem, rather than being different without effort. Let's see where he goes, but what a great talent behind the wheel he is!

#1635 as65p

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 16:56

Yes. The basic, fundamental qualities remain the same. Very difficult to change them. Alonso is still the Alonso I knew back in 2003. He's just more refined and matured.

There are exceptions I'd think. I think Hamilton is fundamentally changing in attitude. ATM, it seems forced, and not yet natural. He's trying a new approach, it would seem, rather than being different without effort. Let's see where he goes, but what a great talent behind the wheel he is!


Driving talent of LH is second to no one, without doubt. From what I've seen (or rather have never seen yet), the bolded will not work. But it's great to watch such an attempt from the safety of our armchair, isn't it?  ;)

#1636 1Devil1

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 17:04

Alonso could break Schumacher record of 24 consecutive races with points

Fernando Alonso has now scored in 22 consecutive races. The record stands at 24 Grand Prix and is held by Michael Schumacher

Damn, he never threw the car away or hit an opponent despite fighting in the middle against crash kids like Maldonado. Alonso Mrs. Consistency :up: . Hope he catches this record. That shows his strength in this area

#1637 garoidb

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 17:08

Yes. The basic, fundamental qualities remain the same. Very difficult to change them. Alonso is still the Alonso I knew back in 2003. He's just more refined and matured.

There are exceptions I'd think. I think Hamilton is fundamentally changing in attitude. ATM, it seems forced, and not yet natural. He's trying a new approach, it would seem, rather than being different without effort. Let's see where he goes, but what a great talent behind the wheel he is!


Driving talent of LH is second to no one, without doubt. From what I've seen (or rather have never seen yet), the bolded will not work. But it's great to watch such an attempt from the safety of our armchair, isn't it? ;)


I have to agree with as65p.

#1638 ali_M

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 17:32

Driving talent of LH is second to no one, without doubt. From what I've seen (or rather have never seen yet), the bolded will not work. But it's great to watch such an attempt from the safety of our armchair, isn't it?;)


While I may not know how to drive a car at the speeds they do, attitude change is something that we all have to face if we're willing to. I do not speak from an armchair from that standpoint. I speak as someone deep in the trenches, as it were. Once you've experienced it, you know the different phases involved. He's doing fine. Don't think it judgmental on my part but more an observation. It's not negative commentary, but just realistic and actually sympathetic commentary. A driver on the current F1 grid has to come pretty badly for me to give fundamentally negative commentary about them. I may say negative things about something they did, but am very careful about fundamental commentary. It's never to be taken lightly from my perspective. It's usually based on serious thought..... though never to be taken as fact, mind you. It's just my personal sentiments being expressed here.

Hamilton had a bad year last year and he has been addressing aspects of himself that contributed to this as well as past incidents prior to last year. He's currently doing well, IMO. I don't know if he'll make the full transition, but he's just that now.... in a state of transition. He's of a deep character, and not particularly afraid to show the world his 'tender underbelly' as it were and I admire him for this. One definitely can't be hard on him for it, but he's definitely young and has more to learn about things not racing and how it mysteriously impacts on his ontrack performances. Great potential there.

Edited by ali_M, 26 July 2012 - 17:33.


#1639 puxanando

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 17:35

DRIVER-PK with Fernando

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#1640 garoidb

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 17:46

While I may not know how to drive a car at the speeds they do, attitude change is something that we all have to face if we're willing to. I do not speak from an armchair from that standpoint. I speak as someone deep in the trenches, as it were. Once you've experienced it, you know the different phases involved. He's doing fine. Don't think it judgmental on my part but more an observation. It's not negative commentary, but just realistic and actually sympathetic commentary. A driver on the current F1 grid has to come pretty badly for me to give fundamentally negative commentary about them. I may say negative things about something they did, but am very careful about fundamental commentary. It's never to be taken lightly from my perspective. It's usually based on serious thought..... though never to be taken as fact, mind you. It's just my personal sentiments being expressed here.

Hamilton had a bad year last year and he has been addressing aspects of himself that contributed to this as well as past incidents prior to last year. He's currently doing well, IMO. I don't know if he'll make the full transition, but he's just that now.... in a state of transition. He's of a deep character, and not particularly afraid to show the world his 'tender underbelly' as it were and I admire him for this. One definitely can't be hard on him for it, but he's definitely young and has more to learn about things not racing and how it mysteriously impacts on his ontrack performances. Great potential there.


I want to avoid getting into Lewis too much, since this is the wrong thread for that. My original point was that Fernando has aptitudes and talents to do with focus, situational awareness, adaptabillity, team inspiration or motivation (or keeping the pressure off them if necessary). These things are not really about attitude, and don't necessarily come with experience either. Some people are better in these areas than others and it seems to me that Fernando is very good.

Edit: In summary, what I am trying to say is that there is actual native ability involved.

Edited by garoidb, 26 July 2012 - 17:50.


#1641 Architrion

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 18:48

DRIVER-PK with Fernando


jo jo
I like Kimi that much.... he was leaving even before the moderator had said goodbye..... I'm still laughing

What a bunch of silly questions
What a bunch of bored faces
I talk with more sympathy to my own boss

That's the weird face of Formula 1

#1642 prty

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 19:36

DRIVER-PK with Fernando


At 30:10, when asked about whether he will watch the Olympics, is it me or the laughter is in part related to his mispronunciation of "beach" and his new girlfriend? :lol:


#1643 jj2728

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 20:50

27 wins in 99 WC starts (a world record that stood for 15 years), ten miles from winning the Indy 500 as a rookie when it was the best race in the world, three world titles and winning a race in a March? As well as Can-Am race wins and so on.

Even in F1 alone Alonso's achievements are not even close. Took him nearly twice as long to get up to 27 wins. Even taking the Minardi time out it took a lot longer...


And that's the problem with lists and trying to compare the incomparable. Alonso is very good, I think he's driving at his peak this season, but of all the current crop of F1 drivers the only one whom I'd even consider for the all time top 10 would be Schumacher and that may be a stretch. And yes the 1970 March was a truck.....

#1644 ali_M

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 21:46

I want to avoid getting into Lewis too much, since this is the wrong thread for that. My original point was that Fernando has aptitudes and talents to do with focus, situational awareness, adaptabillity, team inspiration or motivation (or keeping the pressure off them if necessary). These things are not really about attitude, and don't necessarily come with experience either. Some people are better in these areas than others and it seems to me that Fernando is very good.

Edit: In summary, what I am trying to say is that there is actual native ability involved.


We seem to believe the same things. Just minor differences. Probably there aren't any really. However, the word games can get out of hand, so I'll be the first to concede and say that it's fine. :smoking:

#1645 juandiego

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 22:06

QUOTE (ensign14 @ Jul 25 2012, 10:08)
27 wins in 99 WC starts (a world record that stood for 15 years), ten miles from winning the Indy 500 as a rookie when it was the best race in the world, three world titles and winning a race in a March? As well as Can-Am race wins and so on.

Even in F1 alone Alonso's achievements are not even close. Took him nearly twice as long to get up to 27 wins. Even taking the Minardi time out it took a lot longer...

And that's the problem with lists and trying to compare the incomparable. Alonso is very good, I think he's driving at his peak this season, but of all the current crop of F1 drivers the only one whom I'd even consider for the all time top 10 would be Schumacher and that may be a stretch. And yes the 1970 March was a truck.....

In my opinion, that rather points to the fact that competitiveness becomes fiercer and fiercer as time goes by. All that happened because their rivals were worse, and I'm not saying Steward was mediocre or something, only that it was long time ago. It's simply impossible that all that could happen nowadays. Of course Alonso is better than Stewart, and probably half the current grid as well, as Usain Bolt is much better than Jessy Owen, or Phelps much better than Spitz: they begin at an early age, have better preparation in any aspect, are selected and prevail amongst much more rivals year after year, etc, etc. The general level of any sport is always increasing because of those reasons; it's a fact. The probability of that some of those old aces' talent is equal to top current driver's is simply very low.

#1646 4MEN

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 22:13

31 Birthday. 31 win?

#1647 jj2728

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 00:27

The probability of that some of those old aces' talent is equal to top current driver's is simply very low.


I'd like to see some of today's 'aces' go flat out for 3 or so hours around the old Nordschleife in say a 1937 Auto Union, or beat the entire field by 4+ minutes at the same track in conditons that today would cause them to not even venture out of their motorhomes, or harness competitively the 1000+ hp of an early '80s turbo, or take the Masta kink flat out in an early 70s F1 car because that's what the 'old aces' did. They had talent in spades, equal to the drivers of today.

#1648 Blackmadonna

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 00:59

I'd like to see some of today's 'aces' go flat out for 3 or so hours around the old Nordschleife in say a 1937 Auto Union, or beat the entire field by 4+ minutes at the same track in conditons that today would cause them to not even venture out of their motorhomes, or harness competitively the 1000+ hp of an early '80s turbo, or take the Masta kink flat out in an early 70s F1 car because that's what the 'old aces' did. They had talent in spades, equal to the drivers of today.


I believe Fernando could do that.



#1649 ali_M

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 01:58

I believe Fernando could do that.


Fun video, thanks!!! Wouldn't have expected otherwise. He looked very comfortable in that car and would have been a great racer in that time, no doubt. Once you have great car control, it really doesn't matter the car now does it???? Each ace simply dr(i|o)ve/s the wheels off whatever exist(s|ed) for them then and now.

I do feel they're fitter now. Not that they weren't back then, but I do believe they're generally a lot fitter. They may not be driving for hours now, but they put up with a lot more in the short space of time in terms of g-forces, corner speeds, car management gizmos and such. It's either the long haul or the shorter more intense experience. Both are exhausting.

#1650 inaki

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:11

I'd like to see some of today's 'aces' go flat out for 3 or so hours around the old Nordschleife in say a 1937 Auto Union, or beat the entire field by 4+ minutes at the same track in conditons that today would cause them to not even venture out of their motorhomes, or harness competitively the 1000+ hp of an early '80s turbo, or take the Masta kink flat out in an early 70s F1 car because that's what the 'old aces' did. They had talent in spades, equal to the drivers of today.


To compare eras is to compare apples and toasters. One can do it, but others may wonder why.
I tend to think, on the contrary to nostalgic guys than present drivers are better than old guys. Not genetically or in raw talent, it will be never possible to compare that. But what I clearly think is that the drivers as a whole from the former eras are simply inferior to modern F1 drivers.
Why?
  • Because today a pilot has much more possibilities to compete, drive, train, get right nutrition, physical fitness, measure or increase aerobic capabilities, train reflexes, strength, know about technical things, etc. In the old days the drivers' physical condition and attention to detail was nowhere near what it is today. Many F1 drivers were smokers, even heavy drinkers and today many of them are close to monks.
  • The background of any driver in F1 nowadays it is simply incredible comparing it with any historical one. When a modern driver arrives to the pinnacle of motorsports they have been driving or competing since they were babies. Take any F1 driver and probably began karting with 3 to 5 years old, since then until today he has been doing nothing but competing in more than 1000 motor races with thousands of people much better than the ones that could exists in the 50s. It’s natural selection. Juan Manuel Fangio won his first WDC with 40 years old, previous to that was a taxi driver in Buenos Aires. The 5th WDC he won he was 46. It certainly could be possible, but extremely difficult that a person with this age can win even a GP today.
  • There are a lot more people doing motorsports today, and it would be safe to assume that there are more talented people involved in the sport. There are no doubts that are better prepared.
The current drivers’ generation and their teams are trying to perfect every single aspect of racing while in the good old days the drivers just jumped in the cars and drove a race every now and then. It was maybe more cool, but they wouldn't stand a chance now.