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Fernando Alonso - Part II


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#2751 Lights

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:40

And this is where it all went wrong... such a shame knowing 2nd was up for grabs.

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#2752 Fontainebleau

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:42

That doesn't mean you can jinx suddenly and change your racing line arbitrarily, Fontainebleau. He actually starts turning in and moving away from Kimi and the edge of the track. Then he sees Button moving left, gets spooked and suddenly moves left even when he knew Raikkonen was there. Why would Raikkonen have lifted already by then if Fernando was already turning in and moving away from him. Fernando should have expected Kimi to still be there.

But that's the point, it would seem he had already overtaken Raikkonen, so he might have expected him not to be there. As for Raikkonen expecting Alonso to turn in, I am not that sure given where the McLaren (which Raikkonen could also see) was.

As I have said, it was a racing incident. But the driver who was in a better position to avoid touching was Raikkonen, because he was behind Alonso and could see him much better than Alonso could see the Lotus. He tried to avoid it, but he failed to do so; these things happen, but I fail to see why people want to put the blame squarely on Alonso.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 07 October 2012 - 10:42.


#2753 xman

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:48

But that's the point, it would seem he had already overtaken Raikkonen, so he might have expected him not to be there. As for Raikkonen expecting Alonso to turn in, I am not that sure given where the McLaren (which Raikkonen could also see) was.

As I have said, it was a racing incident. But the driver who was in a better position to avoid touching was Raikkonen, because he was behind Alonso and could see him much better than Alonso could see the Lotus. He tried to avoid it, but he failed to do so; these things happen, but I fail to see why people want to put the blame squarely on Alonso.


Disagree on all counts. Kimi did all he could avoid touching, he had to yield to grass, it was Alonso who could have avoided this by simply not trying to run Kimi off the track. He did unnecessary aggressive swerve to the left and paid for it dearly. Alonso was 100% at fault here.

#2754 Arry2k

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:51

:confused:

What efforts are you talking about exactly? Giving Alonso a donkey consistently 1 second behind pole position and fighting with midfield teams? The fact that Alonso has been leading the championship this year is DESPITE the efforts of Fry and SD. In fact they seem to be doing their best to lose the titles by consistently failing to improve the car, so I have no idea how you believe they deserve praise for their efforts. Without Alonso they both would have been sacked mid season. SD might have had a mountain to climb but he has not climbed it.




What efforts? Are you being deliberately obtuse here?

SD is the one who brought Alonso to the table as well as PF, given PF free reign to get ex McLaren guys whom he thinks will bring strength and direction to the technical side. Also under SD's watch Hamashima has been brought in and without him I reckon we would be out to sea with regards to understanding the tyres. Ok so we are not the best on tyres, but then Hamashima came in so late in the day he could notinfluence the car's behaviour from the outset, but you cannot under value his contribution.

And as for PF, he has started to change the philosophy and direction of the team and that much is obvious from seeing the three Costa cars to the one Fry car. In 2009, 2010 and 2011 the Costa cars have been chasing trends (namely double diffuser, ebd and F-duct) the car and in the case of 09 and 11 the cars were conceptually wrong. IMO the 11 was the worst as it was fundamentally so badly thought out from the start it was an utter joke. Not only did it lack downforce but had tyre preservation at its heart which as we saw last year was not the way to go.

Whereas Fry was spot on conceptually - how else would we have been able to copy the McLaren exhaust solution and get it working? Ok the detail was wrong, perhaps he was too ambitious especially given Ferrari's lack of understanding of the complexities of exhaust and diffuser interaction. Also the efforts made by the team to take the car to the limits under his watch (namely taking cooling to the extreme or the improvements to pitstops) cannot be undervalued either. He also has to be credited with the turnaround he and the team made between the start of the season and Spain/Canada, or have you forgotten exactly how much the car improved between the start of the season and then?

For all the above reasons they deserve praise and if you don't want to praise that effort then fine, but IMO you are just being obstinate and deliberately so.

All that said I would agree that SD and PF have not yet climbed the mountain and that there is still a way to go, however to ignore what they have achieved and to suggest they are doing all they can to derail any title hope is foolish in the extreme.

#2755 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:54

Rule says you must leave room if the front wing of the rival has fw alongside your rear wheel.

Since the contact was exactly between these parts, and a while after Kimi already loses some ground after going to the grass, there's no room for discussion.


Well, it's well known that some of the usual rules are not being enforced at the start.

And wrt those rules, which one do yo mean? The actual rules are these:

20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
20.4 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.

I don't think either can be constructed to apply. 20.3 regulates one move when defending on corner approach - not applicable. And I don't think you can call what he did "deliberate crowding".

But I think you are referring to the rule clarification that was mad by Whiting this season:

Any driver defending his position on a straight and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his

I think it is difficult to claim that Räikkönen attempted to pass.

#2756 boldhakka

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:00

But that's the point, it would seem he had already overtaken Raikkonen, so he might have expected him not to be there. As for Raikkonen expecting Alonso to turn in, I am not that sure given where the McLaren (which Raikkonen could also see) was.

As I have said, it was a racing incident. But the driver who was in a better position to avoid touching was Raikkonen, because he was behind Alonso and could see him much better than Alonso could see the Lotus. He tried to avoid it, but he failed to do so; these things happen, but I fail to see why people want to put the blame squarely on Alonso.


Your premise is false in several different ways:
1. Fernando wasn't fully ahead when he jinxed left
2. It was not an overtaking maneuver to begin with, so your terminology and the rules you are quoting are irrelevant. This is basic wheel-to-wheel racing at the start.

Fernando changed his line once when he legitimately squeezed Kimi, again when he bagan turning right into the corner, and one final time when he jinxed left on seeing Button.

Alonso had already squeezed Kimi to the fullest extent possible and then gave one last squeeze when he got spooked by Button moving towards him. This last squeeze was over the line. It was a racing accident, Alonso made the mistake, he paid for it substantially, and his comments are out of line. It really is that simple.

#2757 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:03

It was a racing accident, Alonso made the mistake, he paid for it substantially, and his comments are out of line. It really is that simple.


Not all that simple. It was a racing incident, Alonso made the mistake, he paid for it substantially, and his comments are correct: if Kimi wanted to avoid a possible DNF, lifting would have been the smart thing to do (edit: because even if they had not touched, there was no way for him to hang on outside in T1 anyway). He didn't have to and didn't - racing incident.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 07 October 2012 - 11:04.


#2758 Fontainebleau

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:03

Your premise is false in several different ways:
1. Fernando wasn't fully ahead when he jinxed left
2. It was not an overtaking maneuver to begin with, so your terminology and the rules you are quoting are irrelevant. This is basic wheel-to-wheel racing at the start.

Fernando changed his line once when he legitimately squeezed Kimi, again when he bagan turning right into the corner, and one final time when he jinxed left on seeing Button.

Alonso had already squeezed Kimi to the fullest extent possible and then gave one last squeeze when he got spooked by Button moving towards him. This last squeeze was over the line. It was a racing accident, Alonso made the mistake, he paid for it substantially, and his comments are out of line. It really is that simple.

Well, I disagree with you - it really is that simple.

#2759 currupipi

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:04

If Fernando had owned up and something on the lines of: "...we had a battle with Kimi and unfortunately for me I clipped his wing. Ended my race and that is too bad. Mistakes happen - I can only hope that my quota is up now."

Everyone would've said what a down-to-earth guy FA is and how unfortunate it was for a small mistake to end his race. Now that he does nothing of that sort, he gets grilled. On merit I might add.


i dont think alonso is an innocent bystander in what happened but how could he say something like that when it is kimi after touching the grass corrects the car and and touches fa rear tire causing the puncture, you can say that it was alonsos fault for pushing kimi to the grass but the punture is caused when kimi corrects the car not by alonso hitting kimi.


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#2760 boldhakka

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:05

Not all that simple. It was a racing incident, Alonso made the mistake, he paid for it substantially, and his comments are correct: if Kimi wanted to avoid a possible DNF, lifting would have been the smart thing to do (edit: because even if they had not touched, there was no way for him to hang on outside in T1 anyway). He didn't have to and didn't - racing incident.


It is not Alonso's place to say it though.

#2761 Arry2k

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:05

Not all that simple. It was a racing incident, Alonso made the mistake, he paid for it substantially, and his comments are correct: if Kimi wanted to avoid a possible DNF, lifting would have been the smart thing to do. He didn't have to and didn't - racing incident.

I think this sums it up quite well. :up:

#2762 boldhakka

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:05

Well, I disagree with you - it really is that simple.


Yep, no worries, good discussion. Agree to disagree.

#2763 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:13

It is not Alonso's place to say it though.


Man you are being a bit oversensitive, no? I'm sure Kimi has no problem with it.

#2764 boldhakka

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:15

Man you are being a bit oversensitive, no? I'm sure Kimi has no problem with it.


Naw, I don't care (see my response to Fountainbleu above). I just thought it was a bit rich that some were arguing it's Kimi's fault. I'm sure both drivers are pretty cool with it.

#2765 bmardini

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:15

I think its a racing incident because it was so slight, but if I had to lay blame its more on Alonso's feet sorry to say. Reminds me of Vettel-Karthekayan.

#2766 Fontainebleau

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:17

Yep, no worries, good discussion. Agree to disagree.

:)

#2767 canaus

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:21

Watch this video:



Alonso almost seemingly does a Grosjean (at Spa) to Raikkonen.

There's more than enough room on his inside, and I think that one could infer that Alonso was too busy watching Button and trying to get a wider line so he could get on the on the power earlier, and completely forgot about Kimi who had nowhere else to go.

I posted this in the other thread:



At first I thought It was Alonso's fault, that he was weaving or something..... But looking more and more, it's clear that it wasn't his fault at all, no one's fault in fact.

Look from second 0.14 on.

0.15: Alonso is pushing Kimi to the left, still it's room for Kimi. Kimi is now half alongside Alonso. At this moment Button is heading to the right trying to have a look at Grosjean on inside.

0.16: Alonso is realising Kimi will not yield, and he is starting to move a bit to the right, just to give Kimi room. At this moment Button is realising that can't make it to the inside of Grosjean and he is very quickly heading to the left to have the inside of Alonso. Kimi is still comitted to be outside of Alonso in Turn 1, he doesn't see what Button does. There will be no more that 2 cars alongside in that corner, as this truck is very norrow.

0.17: Just at the biginning of the 0.17, Button continue his sudden move to Alonso. Alonso in fact, is still moving to the right to give room to Kimi, but he sees Button coming straight to him. Alonso is aware of both in this moment, but he is surprised by how fast Button is coming into him, he thinks that Button will push him more to the left to have a much better ungle in turn 1 and he is reacting just moving a bit to Kimi, being aware that Kimi is still there and he will be sandwiched. Because of that many of you thought that he was weaving.

0.18: Kimi is pushing into the grass and when he rejoins he touch Alonso's tyre. There is no Button's fault, as he wasn't aware that Kimi still hangging on Fernando.

Absolutly no one to blame, just one of those incidents when 3 cars are going to a corner that can take only 2. Obvously the one in the middle will in most cases lose. No weaving: move right to close Kimi, move left to give space to Kimi, move right because of Button.

What Alonso says is that Kimis should have lift. Probably should, but Kimi didn't know that Button will close Fernando so fast.


#2768 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:30

I posted this in the other thread:



At first I thought It was Alonso's fault, that he was weaving or something..... But looking more and more, it's clear that it wasn't his fault at all, no one's fault in fact.

Look from second 0.14 on.

0.15: Alonso is pushing Kimi to the left, still it's room for Kimi. Kimi is now half alongside Alonso. At this moment Button is heading to the right trying to have a look at Grosjean on inside.

0.16: Alonso is realising Kimi will not yield, and he is starting to move a bit to the right, just to give Kimi room. At this moment Button is realising that can't make it to the inside of Grosjean and he is very quickly heading to the left to have the inside of Alonso. Kimi is still comitted to be outside of Alonso in Turn 1, he doesn't see what Button does. There will be no more that 2 cars alongside in that corner, as this truck is very norrow.

0.17: Just at the biginning of the 0.17, Button continue his sudden move to Alonso. Alonso in fact, is still moving to the right to give room to Kimi, but he sees Button coming straight to him. Alonso is aware of both in this moment, but he is surprised by how fast Button is coming into him, he thinks that Button will push him more to the left to have a much better ungle in turn 1 and he is reacting just moving a bit to Kimi, being aware that Kimi is still there and he will be sandwiched. Because of that many of you thought that he was weaving.

0.18: Kimi is pushing into the grass and when he rejoins he touch Alonso's tyre. There is no Button's fault, as he wasn't aware that Kimi still hangging on Fernando.

Absolutly no one to blame, just one of those incidents when 3 cars are going to a corner that can take only 2. Obvously the one in the middle will in most cases lose. No weaving: move right to close Kimi, move left to give space to Kimi, move right because of Button.

What Alonso says is that Kimis should have lift. Probably should, but Kimi didn't know that Button will close Fernando so fast.

Alonso is checking on his left mirror, turning left more and more and more until he drives Kimi off track
and then, he continues left, the left-right-center montion before the turn is the contact, and then he loses the rear because of the puncture.

#2769 garoidb

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:31

What Alonso says is that Kimis should have lift. Probably should, but Kimi didn't know that Button will close Fernando so fast.


In Kimi's position, Alonso probably would have lifted to avoid (if he could) the contact and wing damage (and correctly so in my opinion). Nevertheless, it is still a racing incident and a consequence of starting 7th more than anything else.

#2770 showtime

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:32

In Kimi's position, Alonso probably would have lifted to avoid (if he could) the contact and wing damage (and correctly so in my opinion). Nevertheless, it is still a racing incident and a consequence of starting 7th more than anything else.


This. :up:

#2771 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:35

In Kimi's position, Alonso probably would have lifted to avoid (if he could) the contact and wing damage (and correctly so in my opinion). Nevertheless, it is still a racing incident and a consequence of starting 7th more than anything else.

Alonso would have lifted, and complained in the radio about Kimi driving him off the track even though he was there, and it is agains tthe rule.
Kimi would have been penalized.
And given how fast the Ferrari was today, Alonso would have just cruised to, at least, a P2 after that.
But Alonso wasn't in Kimi's position...

#2772 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:40

Naw, I don't care (see my response to Fountainbleu above). I just thought it was a bit rich that some were arguing it's Kimi's fault. I'm sure both drivers are pretty cool with it.


Yeah, I wouldn't call it Kimi's fault either. But to balance it out we have people claiming Alonso was wildly swerving across the track which is a distorted view just as much.

#2773 canaus

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:44

Alonso is checking on his left mirror, turning left more and more and more until he drives Kimi off track
and then, he continues left, the left-right-center montion before the turn is the contact, and then he loses the rear because of the puncture.


Did you read my post?

In the first instance he moved left yes, but realized Kimi won't yield and he begins to move right to give Kimi space, then he reacts to Jenson aware that Kimi is still there. Alonso is not the driver to weave or something. He was realizing that Kimi was not going to overtake him, being o his rear left with a fast right hander turn 1, so had no reason to move again across Kimi, other than reacting to Button.

I just don't understand why some wants to put this on Fernando. At first I thought the same, but just isn't the case. Just a classic racing incident, with 3 drivers in a place for 2.

Edited by canaus, 07 October 2012 - 11:47.


#2774 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:49

Alonso would have lifted, and complained in the radio about Kimi driving him off the track even though he was there, and it is agains tthe rule.
Kimi would have been penalized.
And given how fast the Ferrari was today, Alonso would have just cruised to, at least, a P2 after that.
But Alonso wasn't in Kimi's position...

This just in. Kimis response to the complaints of Alonso:
Posted Image

#2775 Spunout

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:50

There was extra space on the right for Alonso.

To me it looked like Button swerved to the left, Alonso reacted and that was it. Button wasn´t to blame, as he did leave more than enough space, for both Alonso and Räikkönen. Räikkönen wasn´t to blame, as he went as far to the left as he could.

But the mistake Alonso did was very, very small IMHO. I did not see him being careless, quite the contrary. If anything, he wanted to be careful with Button and I guess assumed (incorrectly) that Kimi was no longer there. It all happened in fraction of a second; Alonso did not have replays, helicopter cameras and slow mo helping him out.

You could say Alonso was to blame, or simply call it "racing incident".

Edited by Spunout, 07 October 2012 - 12:20.


#2776 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:55

neither of them do have replays and yes, they assume quite a lot of stuff since the brain can only process so much information and you can't always see exactly where everybody is. sometimes these guys can race at 150+mph closer than most of us can park with sensors.

things are bound to go bad from time to time and one of your assumption will be on the wrong side.

#2777 canaus

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:08

There was extra space on the right for Alonso.

To me it looked like Button swerved to the left, Alonso reacted and that was it. Button wasn´t to blame, as he did leave more than enough space, for both Alonso and Räikkönen. Räikkönen wasn´t to blame, as he went as fat to the left as he could.

But the mistake Alonso did was very, very small IMHO. I did not see him being careless, quite the contrary. If anything, he wanted to be careful with Button and I guess assumed (incorrectly) that Kimi was no longer there. It all happened in fraction of a second; Alonso did not have replays, helicopter cameras and slow mo helping him out.

You could say Alonso was to blame, or simply call it "racing incident".


I still think he assumed that Kimi is there and that's why he moved just a little bit, but there was no left "bit" there.

#2778 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:13

This just in. Kimis response to the complaints of Alonso:
Posted Image


There were no complaints.

#2779 showtime

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:23

There were no complaints.

But then it wouldn't be a proper villain! You just have to exaggerate a little bit here and then a little bit there so everyone knows who the bad guy is.

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#2780 muramasa

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:43


This outburst, the extent and amount of hatred and mocking towards Alonso, when opportunity arises, is astounding. Sure he occasionally comes across as quite arrogant and says sth more than honest, but mostly that shows how committed he is to the competition. Usually he looks nice guy. Would these people trashing him hit at Lewis for example the same way, I wonder.

#2781 Konsta

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:53

Not all that simple. It was a racing incident, Alonso made the mistake, he paid for it substantially, and his comments are correct: if Kimi wanted to avoid a possible DNF, lifting would have been the smart thing to do (edit: because even if they had not touched, there was no way for him to hang on outside in T1 anyway). He didn't have to and didn't - racing incident.

If Saint Fernando would've wanted not to hit Kimi then Kimi should not have started the race or at least not have the audacity of returning on track after FA had squeezed him out. That what you're saying?

All the time you have to leave room...judging by the pics and videos Fernando had loads on his right.

#2782 Konsta

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:55

Yeah, I wouldn't call it Kimi's fault either. But to balance it out we have people claiming Alonso was wildly swerving across the track which is a distorted view just as much.

TBH FA swerved from ultimate right to left, then a bit right before turning left ending his race there. If that is not swerving then what?

#2783 Lone

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:08

This outburst, the extent and amount of hatred and mocking towards Alonso, when opportunity arises, is astounding. Sure he occasionally comes across as quite arrogant and says sth more than honest, but mostly that shows how committed he is to the competition. Usually he looks nice guy. Would these people trashing him hit at Lewis for example the same way, I wonder.


I guess you're right about the hatred thing but in this forum it happens to most drivers, not only Alonso. To be fair not too many Kimi fans has called for Alonso to be banned for reckless driving but are instead annyoed at Alonso calling it Kims fault. And I agree that Alonso is very motivated but still should somtimes take blame for his own mistakes.

Edited by Lone, 07 October 2012 - 13:10.


#2784 Konsta

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:12

I guess you're right about the hatred thing but in this forum it happens to most drivers, not only Alonso. To be fair not too many Kimi fans has called for Alonso to be banned for reckless driving but are instead annyoed at Alonso calling it Kims fault. And I agree that Alonso is very motivated but still should somtimes take blame for his own mistakes.

:up: this

#2785 kosmos

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:12

Watching this video, to me it's clear that Kimi was too optimistic, not sure if he thought he could pull an overtake from the left or something.



#2786 Konsta

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:15

Watching this video, to me it's clear that Kimi was too optimistic, not sure if he thought he could pull an overtake from the left or something.

Apparently we see things differently. To me it looked like FA steered all the way to left (OK), then a bit right (still OK) and finally "scared" of JB jinxed left again (not OK).

#2787 Skinnyguy

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:20

Watching this video, to me it's clear that Kimi was too optimistic, not sure if he thought he could pull an overtake from the left or something.


Alonso would have beaten Kimi into turn 1 no doubt but that's irrelevant to the fact that he was alongside him and had right to a car's width room.

#2788 jeze

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:23

Alonso would have beaten Kimi into turn 1 no doubt but that's irrelevant to the fact that he was alongside him and had right to a car's width room.

No he wasn't.




#2789 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:30

There were no complaints.

He basically blamed Kimi.

"I don't understand why Kimi didn't lift off or anything because there was not any room. I don't know what Kimi's idea was for the first corner"

That my friend, is complaining.

#2790 kosmos

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:31

Posted Image

We can discuss if Alonso did an agressive move to the left, but Kimi at this point was going nowhere, he should have hit the brakes a little, Alonso at this point was commited and Button was on the right, there was no place to go for him. At the end I think it was a racing incident but avoidable with a little more sensible racing.


By the way I'm disappointed with Fernando today, it's not true that the car was the same in the last 6 races, they have many updates in the last races, big or small, I don't care. I can give him a pass if it was something he said just 10 minutes after the DNF but he had time to reflect and cool down, the sad part is that Fry and Domenicali have to correct him on the press.

#2791 iMad4

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:44

Wonder why Alonso make a movie like Grojan at Spa and after was not truthfull about his own move.



#2792 Lister of Smeg

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:47

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We can discuss if Alonso did an agressive move to the left, but Kimi at this point was going nowhere, he should have hit the brakes a little, Alonso at this point was commited and Button was on the right, there was no place to go for him. At the end I think it was a racing incident but avoidable with a little more sensible racing.


By the way I'm disappointed with Fernando today, it's not true that the car was the same in the last 6 races, they have many updates in the last races, big or small, I don't care. I can give him a pass if it was something he said just 10 minutes after the DNF but he had time to reflect and cool down, the sad part is that Fry and Domenicali have to correct him on the press.


You don't hit the brakes after being pushed and with 2 wheels off the track.

#2793 iMad4

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:47

There is a story on the net about Santander wanted to bring Alonso to Ferrari allready in 2008 and 2009.

Kimi refused to move. Today Kimi again was spotted against Santander plans to brign his driver to championship.

Now i don't beleive in Alonso as champ this season. Fettel too fast now.

Also Alonso should stop be so emotional and show his emotions witch not make him a real man.

#2794 Fontainebleau

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:52

I guess you're right about the hatred thing but in this forum it happens to most drivers, not only Alonso. To be fair not too many Kimi fans has called for Alonso to be banned for reckless driving but are instead annyoed at Alonso calling it Kims fault. And I agree that Alonso is very motivated but still should somtimes take blame for his own mistakes.

I am sorry but I disagree. Have a look at this same thread, and you will see how certain forumers only come here to bash Alonso at any given opportunity. As for Raikkonen fans, some may be annoyed that Alonso called it Raikkonen's fault (which is an extreme way to interpret his words, but anyway), but others simply cannot let 2009 go.

#2795 Fontainebleau

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:54

You don't hit the brakes after being pushed and with 2 wheels off the track.

No, yo do so when you realise you have lost the position and the car in front is taking a line towards the left - which is what I guess Alonso thought Raikkonen would do.

#2796 canaus

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 14:05

Alonso would have beaten Kimi into turn 1 no doubt but that's irrelevant to the fact that he was alongside him and had right to a car's width room.


Alonso gave him room, until Button moved across.

So what was Kimi idea? 3 cars in turn 1 at Suzuka simply doesn't work. Watching from Massa's car I now don't understand what was Kimi thinking. I don't blame him, but what was he hoping for?

Edited by canaus, 07 October 2012 - 14:18.


#2797 Lone

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 14:21

I am sorry but I disagree. Have a look at this same thread, and you will see how certain forumers only come here to bash Alonso at any given opportunity. As for Raikkonen fans, some may be annoyed that Alonso called it Raikkonen's fault (which is an extreme way to interpret his words, but anyway), but others simply cannot let 2009 go.


Well, you always have some with extreme emotions but I think that most are annoyed by the fact that Alonso called it Kimis fault, and it's not an extreme way to interpret his words. On the other hand there's some Alonso fans who can never admit he's wrong. It doesn't mean that Alonso isn't a fabulous driver, amongst the best in the history of F1, even if he makes a mistakes sometimes, Which is very rarely but on this occasion he did.


#2798 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 14:26

If Saint Fernando would've wanted not to hit Kimi then Kimi should not have started the race or at least not have the audacity of returning on track after FA had squeezed him out. That what you're saying?

All the time you have to leave room...judging by the pics and videos Fernando had loads on his right.


I posted Whiting's clarification wrt to "you always have to leave room" earlier today, it refers to overtaking attempts, which Kimi being there was not. But anyway, it was a race start and those rules don't apply, but sensible driving instead - despite of which things can go wrong.

I said it in the very post you quoted that if blame has to be placed I would put it with Alonso, so your paranoid rant about Saint Fernando is misdirected. What remains is still that even if you are in the right, it sometimes is wiser to lift. In road traffic if you have the right of way and see another guy ignoring your right: do you lift or insist on your right? Same here, even if Alonso had been totally crazy with his move (which he was not) he endangered Kimi and so it would have been better for Kimi to lift. And actually Kimi is smarter than you and tried to help out it all just went down too fast (at least that's how I understand his port-race statement).

If you watch again more closely you will see that yes, initially he had loads of space on the right, and during this time he left plenty for Kimi. But then Button quite suddenly appears on the right, which I think spooked Alonso, and from then on nobody made an actual mistake, it was just 3 cars headed for a piece of road that can take 2, and everything moving too fast even for these three super drivers. That's what's called a racing incident.

AMuS by the way, usually not very Alonso-friendly, had the following to say (German). I do not agree with them, but if even AMuS puts the blame on Räikkönen there really is not cause for you to go ballistic just because someone suggests it was a racing incident which Kimi maybe was in the best position to avoid:

Suzuka is always a difficult start (...). This year there was stress as well. Die first victim was Alonso. The Spaniard was squeezed between Perez and Räikkönen. When Alonso made a wobble to the left, Räikkönen lifted too late and hit the Ferrari at the left rear tyre. Alonso spun through the field.

As soon as the smoke cleared, the Ferrari engine stalled [right, what about this? did it really happen? why?]. The question may be allowed why the anit-stall did not work. Nobody at Ferrari knew an answer. Did the computer switch to neutral too late, or did Alonso forget to pull the clutch? He could have continued, only the left rear tyre was flat.

The collision was Räikkönens fault. Should the stewards have punished him? Even Domenical agreed the with the stewards' opinion of a racing incident: "I could not see any bad intent in Kimi"



TBH FA swerved from ultimate right to left, then a bit right before turning left ending his race there. If that is not swerving then what?


Not every change of direction is swerving

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 07 October 2012 - 14:34.


#2799 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 14:32

He basically blamed Kimi.

That my friend, is complaining.


That, son, is a completely legitimate comment. If the contact situation had been avoided and all three had continued to approach the corner, Kimi would have lost the corner anyway, from the position he was in. So to ask what his idea was is no problem, to me. It was not disrespectful or anything. I thought In general we want drivers not to be corporate robots. But I know, the souls of Kimi fans are extremely fragile. You couldn't take the shit for a day that Alonso supporters had to endure for 5 years ;)

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 07 October 2012 - 14:36.


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#2800 canaus

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 14:34

Well, you always have some with extreme emotions but I think that most are annoyed by the fact that Alonso called it Kimis fault, and it's not an extreme way to interpret his words. On the other hand there's some Alonso fans who can never admit he's wrong. It doesn't mean that Alonso isn't a fabulous driver, amongst the best in the history of F1, even if he makes a mistakes sometimes, Which is very rarely but on this occasion he did.


I recall 2 mistakes from him this year. Australia and China.