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Fernando Alonso - Part II


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#3351 skinnylizard

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:40

Fernando is a driven man, his actions at McLaren and his actions on track prove that. The fact that its his third season in a Ferrari i wonder if he is pissed off at the team for not being able to deliver the machinery.

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#3352 Buttoneer

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:54

END THE CAR DISCUSSION NOW.

The thread is not for discussion of the relative dribveability of the cars, nor is this the thread to be commenting on free practices pace etc. There are separate threads for both of these things. Understand this; it is not somewhere for fans of Alonso to come and discuss all matters of F1 in a fan-only environment.

This thread is to discuss Fernando Alonso ONLY to the extent that the discussion does not fit within the remit of other threads.

#3353 Architrion

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 00:57

Buttoneer is my fu..... hero.

:blush: :blush: :blush: Ooops... I hope this post won't be labeled as out of topic. That would be full circle...

#3354 kosmos

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:14

Not a very good qualy, too bad because Q1 and Q2 were great, another race to battle everything and everyone, and not a very good place to start with some many people around, at least clean side and let's hope HAmilton can stop Vettel, because it's clear that Vettel will be P2 after the first corner.

#3355 LiJu914

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:29

Not a very good qualy, too bad because Q1 and Q2 were great, another race to battle everything and everyone, and not a very good place to start with some many people around, at least clean side and let's hope HAmilton can stop Vettel, because it's clear that Vettel will be P2 after the first corner.


Or he has a poor start and is stuck behind Maldonado after T1...

#3356 Skinnyguy

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 18:15

I think Alonso is choked a bit. Expected good result after Q1 and even Q2, he looked on it all day except when it counted. :down:

He´ll need some fireworks in lap 1, then again you can trust him doing exactly that, he´s been mega all year in lap 1. :up:


#3357 Hanzo

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 19:19

he looked on it all day except when it counted. :down:


Agree, but it is tomorrow when it really counts.

Not very good starts in Singapore and Japan. Excellent starts in Korea and India. I hope he can start well again.
A lot of cars in front and the need of getting a podium through "in track overtaking" Nothing new under the sun, the good thing is that he can do it, but there are always risks starting P6.


#3358 discover23

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 19:22

Alonso can get kimi at the start.. Them move on and nail either Webber or Maldonado who will fall back- button is good at starts- with DRS enable he can pass Button like he did on the last race.. P2 or P3 by the end of lap 2 is possible.

#3359 Ravenak

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 19:25

You're being overly optimistic.

Realistically, he's now starting on the dirty side of the track, so he can maybe jump one car at the first corner and, at best, another one in the first lap.

Podium definitely possible, victory not at all with Hamilton in command, unless something happens of course.

Edit: oh and DRS only activates at lap 3.

Edited by Ravenak, 03 November 2012 - 19:26.


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#3360 discover23

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 19:33

I know.

#3361 showtime

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 20:06

I can't see many overtakes at the start, the first turn seems quite close to the starting line. It's going to be difficult to gain places through the race to. And I have an irrational feeling that he is not going to finish.

#3362 Kelateboy

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:03

I can't see many overtakes at the start, the first turn seems quite close to the starting line. It's going to be difficult to gain places through the race to. And I have an irrational feeling that he is not going to finish.

Why? Grosjean T-bones and takes out half of the field yet again? :)

#3363 kartinhero

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:09

Alonso can get kimi at the start.. Them move on and nail either Webber or Maldonado who will fall back- button is good at starts- with DRS enable he can pass Button like he did on the last race.. P2 or P3 by the end of lap 2 is possible.



LOL. Keep dreaming..

#3364 Bruce

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:11

In normal circumstances I would suspect that third is the very best he could hope to accomplish. However - with Maldonado up front, as well as2 inconsistent McLaren's and a Lotus that always seems to be slower in the race, who knows?

Regradless, he'll have to hang it out - Vettel is going to get into the points....

#3365 Ravenak

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:13

I would not be that optimistic for Vettel, especially if they can't get the straight line speeds up.

And I don't think they will, because it means, basically, reversing the whole setup of the car, which will be a nightmare without testing.

Whatever points Fernando brings home, they will be important.

Edited by Ravenak, 04 November 2012 - 03:14.


#3366 kosmos

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:39

I can't imagine the amount of pressure on Fernando's shoulders today, he has to attack, and he can't do a single mistake today. There is no much room to gain places before turn 1 but at least turn 1 it's not dangerous and it has a good run off area, sadly the dirty side is a penalty to some degree.



#3367 vlado

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:42

ya.. he needs a good drive today. I see 3rd place in his future.. or 2-nd..

How were the McLarens on Friday's long runs ?

#3368 ViMaMo

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 05:16

I can't imagine the amount of pressure on Fernando's shoulders today, he has to attack, and he can't do a single mistake today. There is no much room to gain places before turn 1 but at least turn 1 it's not dangerous and it has a good run off area, sadly the dirty side is a penalty to some degree.


I think it will be a positive pressure. Hope he makes the best of it and the team gets the best strategy and pit stop. :up:


#3369 fastdriver

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:48

I can't imagine the amount of pressure on Fernando's shoulders today, he has to attack, and he can't do a single mistake today. There is no much room to gain places before turn 1 but at least turn 1 it's not dangerous and it has a good run off area, sadly the dirty side is a penalty to some degree.

Considering how far back SV is starting, I actually think FA has almost no pressure. He just has to have a normal race while SV needs to work magic.

#3370 kosmos

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:12

Considering how far back SV is starting, I actually think FA has almost no pressure. He just has to have a normal race while SV needs to work magic.


Just the contrary in my opinion, knowing how the races are going and Ferrari's problems to upgrade the car, this could be his only chance to take a huge bite on Vettels lead. If he manages to nulify or almost nulify the 13 points in this race, then the pressure is on RB/Vettel for the next races, and with some luck and hard work (as they already doing), maybe they will manage to improve the car in qualy for Austin.



#3371 ViMaMo

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:15

Jorge Lorenzo won the title, with Pedrosa almost catching him and then he didnt. I wish Alonso wins this title since he has been almost fantastic this year and deserves it.

#3372 jeze

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:34

Unless Vettel is retiring from either USA or Brazil the title is over anyway. The car is shite and Alonso has underperformed in qualifying with it too lately (was brilliant up until Singapore).

#3373 as65p

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:59

Unless Vettel is retiring from either USA or Brazil the title is over anyway. The car is shite and Alonso has underperformed in qualifying with it too lately (was brilliant up until Singapore).


How do you figure? By Massa being closer, presumably?

Not that it's impossible, but I would also consider that it might be due to Ferrari throwing everything but the kitchen sink at especially Alonsos car in a vain bid to turn it into a worthy competitor to Red Bull. All that testing and getting used to new bits would easily affect the process of working normally over a weekend, there just won't be enough time to tune the car for qualifying and race as usual.

#3374 jeze

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:16

How do you figure? By Massa being closer, presumably?

Not that it's impossible, but I would also consider that it might be due to Ferrari throwing everything but the kitchen sink at especially Alonsos car in a vain bid to turn it into a worthy competitor to Red Bull. All that testing and getting used to new bits would easily affect the process of working normally over a weekend, there just won't be enough time to tune the car for qualifying and race as usual.


Yes, Massa has gone too close to Alonso compared to what we're used too. I think Alonso is overdriving during qualifying and it's only during the more relaxed and methodical race sessions where we see how good he is. Problem is he's stuck in P7 way too often when a more relaxed qualifying lap beats Maldonado and the lot. Yesterday he was baulked by Webber and still did a 41.4 in Q2 and once again his Q3 time goes worse in spite of a clear track. That can't just be random. The track really improved (Maldonado, Button) and Massa almost spun the car and still did a 41.6 in Q3... He should have been P3 today on the grid but overdrove the thing and then blames the team afterwards. So he needs to be relaxed and do his job today and he might have a podium like Singapore. Of course USA is a bit more similar to India in that aspect but there's always the prospects of a P5 in qualifying there too with Vettel on pole... The car is bad but not half as bad now as what Alonso tries to make out. Yesterday he simply had a bad day at work.

Edited by jeze, 04 November 2012 - 09:22.


#3375 BorkoF2012

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:18

Jeze, you are totally unrealistic. Yesterday you said, based on nothing, that the car could have gone 1:41:1, although neither Alonso or Masa have gone faster than 1:41:5.

#3376 Ravenak

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:19

jeze, I truly wish you had the chance to sit down with Fernando, in a friendly manner, and just tell him the same things you tell us, just to 1) see if you'd be able to suggest the same BS in front of him and 2) see his reaction.

Try to imagine what he would reply to you, and don't forget he's a very honest chap, so you'd get a straight and crystal clear answer.




...

OK, thinking done?

#3377 sailor

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:25

LOL. Keep dreaming..

Lol, nailing Maldanado especially funny.

Usually its been Maldo who nails others :cool:

#3378 jeze

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:30

jeze, I truly wish you had the chance to sit down with Fernando, in a friendly manner, and just tell him the same things you tell us, just to 1) see if you'd be able to suggest the same BS in front of him and 2) see his reaction.

Try to imagine what he would reply to you, and don't forget he's a very honest chap, so you'd get a straight and crystal clear answer.




...

OK, thinking done?

If I had the chance to sit down with Fernando, Formula 1 is not among the things I'd bring up, sorry.




#3379 jeze

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:33

Jeze, you are totally unrealistic. Yesterday you said, based on nothing, that the car could have gone 1:41:1, although neither Alonso or Masa have gone faster than 1:41:5.


How come both Maldonado and Button improved by 6-7 tenths in Q3 then? The track got better but Alonso tried too hard.

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#3380 Snic

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:41

How come both Maldonado and Button improved by 6-7 tenths in Q3 then? The track got better but Alonso tried too hard.


Maldonado had less fuel in Q3 giving him at least 3 tenths. Button had an awful Q2 and was struggling with grip throughout, as he said afterwards

#3381 jeze

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:43

Maldonado had less fuel in Q3 giving him at least 3 tenths. Button had an awful Q2 and was struggling with grip throughout, as he said afterwards


Even if the track improved just three tenths Alonso still had trouble with Webber in Q2 so 41.1 was possible. Alonso is not god, especially not in qualifying. Has choked many times in Q3 (in effect going slower than Q2). No driver is better than him over a race distance though but that's another matter altogether.

Edited by jeze, 04 November 2012 - 09:43.


#3382 decoder

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:51

Even if the track improved just three tenths Alonso still had trouble with Webber in Q2 so 41.1 was possible. Alonso is not god, especially not in qualifying. Has choked many times in Q3 (in effect going slower than Q2). No driver is better than him over a race distance though but that's another matter altogether.


He has choked many times in Q3, yet out qualified his team mate 21 times in a row, which is probably a modern day record?

How come both Maldonado and Button improved by 6-7 tenths in Q3 then? The track got better but Alonso tried too hard.


Because they did garbage first runs, while Alonso hits the limit a lot faster. There is nothing to suggest he could have gone quicker, you have wishful thinking. Hamilton's amazing pole lap was on his first run.

#3383 as65p

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:54

Even if the track improved just three tenths Alonso still had trouble with Webber in Q2 so 41.1 was possible. Alonso is not god, especially not in qualifying. Has choked many times in Q3 (in effect going slower than Q2). No driver is better than him over a race distance though but that's another matter altogether.


No need to pit one extreme vs. the other. Nobody talked of god, which would be just as hyperbole as your talk of choking. Or pulling fantasy optimum times out of thin air.

#3384 jeze

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:55

He has choked many times in Q3, yet out qualified his team mate 21 times in a row, which is probably a modern day record?



Because they did garbage first runs, while Alonso hits the limit a lot faster. There is nothing to suggest he could have gone quicker, you have wishful thinking. Hamilton's amazing pole lap was on his first run.

Not a bad qualifier, and there's a reason Massa is barely in Q3 whilst Alonso is there. But the bottom line is that Alonso so often does his best qualifying lap in Q2 not in Q3 when he needs to do better and the track is more rubbered in et cetera. It's a mystery how he loses the brilliant Vettel-esque Q2 instinct when it matters the most...




#3385 decoder

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:00

Not a bad qualifier, and there's a reason Massa is barely in Q3 whilst Alonso is there. But the bottom line is that Alonso so often does his best qualifying lap in Q2 not in Q3 when he needs to do better and the track is more rubbered in et cetera. It's a mystery how he loses the brilliant Vettel-esque Q2 instinct when it matters the most...


So often, really? Go ahead and list all the occasions his best qualifying lap was in Q2.

#3386 jeze

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:07

So often, really? Go ahead and list all the occasions his best qualifying lap was in Q2.


Like I have all Sunday? I'm more thinking losing places between Q2 and Q3 now. Time is irrelevant since track conditions improve more or less between different circuits. But speaking of Q3 choking, Massa is the king. P1 in Q2 at Monaco and nowhere in Q3, a few tenths slower than on the worse track.

#3387 marcm

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:08

Not a bad qualifier, and there's a reason Massa is barely in Q3 whilst Alonso is there. But the bottom line is that Alonso so often does his best qualifying lap in Q2 not in Q3 when he needs to do better and the track is more rubbered in et cetera. It's a mystery how he loses the brilliant Vettel-esque Q2 instinct when it matters the most...


Or perhaps Alonso is one of the few drivers who is maximising the cars performance in Q2, thus there is no way to improve further in Q3.
Quite often heroic looking laps in Q3 only look that way as they underperformed in the previous sessions.

#3388 jeze

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:12

Or perhaps Alonso is one of the few drivers who is maximising the cars performance in Q2, thus there is no way to improve further in Q3.
Quite often heroic looking laps in Q3 only look that way as they underperformed in the previous sessions.


Or perhaps the car is so random no one knows why it was quick/slow...


Anyway the car must improve because if Alonso was given a top car, he'd take pole positions in the dry make no mistake about it. I'm disappointed with him doing a 41.59 (worse than Q2 and barely faster than Massa) and claiming he reached the maximum... that is BS from a driver that has such self-belief it's always the car, never him. Luckily he drives like a god during long runs on high fuel that he scores high more often than not anyway. But no he's not a driver that would outqualify Vettel or Hamilton over a season in equal cars. He'd probably outscore both though. Hats of to Alonso for his season in general, but he seems to think he's infallible and perhaps that's not what will make him a new Schumacher in the red corner. Regardless of how his car was compared to Häkkinen - Michael never publicly commented that Mika was a second-rate driver or things like that. He did it with other drivers, but not with the guy who beat him.

That said should you put Alonso in a 1998 Ferrari up against Vettel in a 1998 McLaren - I think Alonso would win in spite of the car disadvantage. He knows how to drive cars that handle like beasts like I haven't seen since Schumacher. When the RBR car was poor this season Webber was ahead of Vettel in the standings...

Edited by jeze, 04 November 2012 - 10:18.


#3389 Fontainebleau

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:16

Not a bad qualifier, and there's a reason Massa is barely in Q3 whilst Alonso is there. But the bottom line is that Alonso so often does his best qualifying lap in Q2 not in Q3 when he needs to do better and the track is more rubbered in et cetera. It's a mystery how he loses the brilliant Vettel-esque Q2 instinct when it matters the most...

Without knowing how often that has happened, I would think that him doing a better Q2 is not necessarily mysterious: Alonso has often had to do his best in Q2 in order to get the car through to Q3, or if you want to put it differenty, he had to drive in Q2 as if it were Q3. And very often he has only had one new set of the most appropriate tyres for Q3, while others had the luxury of having two attempts with two new sets - making it easier for them to improve their Q2 times as it reduces the chances that an off-mistake spoils your only good lap. I would not be that surprised if in those conditions Alonso sometimes nails it in Q2 rather than in Q3, while others improve in Q3.

But to know exactly what we are talking about, since I don't have the numbers - in how many races has Alonso not improved his Q2 times?

But no he's not a driver that would outqualify Vettel or Hamilton over a season in equal cars.

I don't know why people are so quick in stating such a thing. The only time Hamilton and Alonso drove the same car they ended up 9-8 at qualifying (I don't know how the extra-lap advantage played there), and that in a year in which Alonso was adapting to Bridgestones from Michelin. I'd say that is too close to call. As for Vettel, I cannot really say because I don't know how different both cars are, but when I think of Singapore 2010 I find it difficult to simply assume that he would outqualify Alonso over a season.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 04 November 2012 - 10:30.


#3390 decoder

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:19

Like I have all Sunday? I'm more thinking losing places between Q2 and Q3 now. Time is irrelevant since track conditions improve more or less between different circuits. But speaking of Q3 choking, Massa is the king. P1 in Q2 at Monaco and nowhere in Q3, a few tenths slower than on the worse track.


You are blaming Alonso because you expected the car to be faster. If Alonso was failing so much in qualifying, Massa would out qualify him more than 7 times in 3 years.

#3391 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:14

Yes, Massa has gone too close to Alonso compared to what we're used too. I think Alonso is overdriving during qualifying and it's only during the more relaxed and methodical race sessions where we see how good he is. Problem is he's stuck in P7 way too often when a more relaxed qualifying lap beats Maldonado and the lot. Yesterday he was baulked by Webber and still did a 41.4 in Q2 and once again his Q3 time goes worse in spite of a clear track. That can't just be random. The track really improved (Maldonado, Button) and Massa almost spun the car and still did a 41.6 in Q3... He should have been P3 today on the grid but overdrove the thing and then blames the team afterwards. So he needs to be relaxed and do his job today and he might have a podium like Singapore. Of course USA is a bit more similar to India in that aspect but there's always the prospects of a P5 in qualifying there too with Vettel on pole... The car is bad but not half as bad now as what Alonso tries to make out. Yesterday he simply had a bad day at work.


Fernando Alonso 	
Average		6
AUS			12
MAL			8
CHI			9
BAH			9
SPA			2
MON			5
CAN			3
EUR			11
BRI			1
GER			1
HUN			6
BEL			5
ITA			10
SIN			5
JAP			6
KOR			4
IND			5
ABU			6
UNI 	
BRA


#3392 Goron3

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:22

There are going to be a few things working in our favour today:
-macca's race pace on the softs isn't as strong as the hards, especially in colder temps
-Alonso's race pace on both tyres is strong.
-Two big drs zones and everyone ahead of us except for the Williams are quite a bit slower in a straight line.

#3393 ViMaMo

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 14:18

Might be its all over for FA's WDC challenge.

#3394 jeze

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 14:55

You've got to hand it to Fernando... a fantastic race once again.

IfithadntbeenforGrosjean... :cry:



#3395 kosmos

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 14:57

Amazing race once again, I can't help to be a little sad, because it's not enough, he can fight like a lion and it's not enough.

#3396 Flamini

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:13

It could be a lot worse. After second safety car I thought that Vettel will win this and Alonso will end at P4. So it would be 26 points in general. Instead we have 10.

#3397 garoidb

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:17

Amazing race once again, I can't help to be a little sad, because it's not enough, he can fight like a lion and it's not enough.


It could still go his way, and he will not finish lower than second. It is better to look at the positives - his first laps in the last two races have been fantastic and his race pace has been superb. It is so close with Vettel now that it will go to whoever has the best luck.

Also, Ferrari have pulled 22 points clear of McLaren for 2nd place in the WCC with two races to go. That would be a great scalp to have.

#3398 toxicfusion

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:20

I think honestly its over, which is incredibly sad considering how much fight he's showed throughout the year.

I'd love to be proved wrong though.

Edited by toxicfusion, 04 November 2012 - 15:21.


#3399 seahawk

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:27

Alonso reminds me of Mansell. Never giving up but often ending up with the second place.

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#3400 fnz

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:41

As earlier this season, Fred did some great first laps overtakes without drs.. love it