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Fernando Alonso - Part II


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#3651 jj2728

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 00:11

Alonso nailed the start and drove to a well deserved 3rd place. Well done to Massa also.

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#3652 PoleMan

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 00:33

Howdy ya'll! :D

While I was in Austin, it was more of a working vacation, so not much opportunity to post. I did peek in here a bit when I had a minute, but didn't dare do so after quali, as I feared the conversation here would resemble the last words of a suicide bomber.

Being at the track (Turn 1), it was really difficult to understand why Fernando was so off the pace. Temperature was definitely part of it, but the sun is strong in Texas, and things usually got heated up to near 70 degrees by late am, with everyone down to tee shirts. I think his problem was a combo of tyre temps, the new asphalt, new tweaks to the car, and maybe the Circuit of the Americas just not suiting him. Despite the lackluster quali, EVERYONE should be proud of the result. For those who didn't like the Ferrari Team's tactics, that really is just your problem. What they did was allowed (obviously!) and is just as valid as other allowed team tactics. What is probably more annoying to those folks is that Fernando managed to get another EFFING PODIUM! :lol: How did he do that? On the laps before he lined up for the grid, he was driving with a wide line into turn 1. I think he was anticipating trouble, and his strategy was to make sure there was some rubber there. Sure enough, when the red lights went out, he took that line and 4th place was the result! :clap:

Lewis, Vettel and Fernando drove sublimely today, and that podium truly represents the best in the sport. So glad that folks in Texas got to see that, PLUS a winner with Lewis' complexion. Not something seen in motor racing, generally. Massa also has saved the best for last, which is both great and a shame. This place was PACKED, which was mentioned by all the drivers and track announcers. A total sellout, and crowds were large even for the practices. Bodes well for the future of the race here! :up:

I need to run now, but my last words remain as they generally are: KEEP THE FAITH! Alonso is a dreamer, but is also a DO-ER! He believes that things that don't seem probable, can come true. That's because he has actually exprienced that happening. Not sure if you saw him encouraging his team when he took the podium with his index finger, "1 more!" 1 more race, with 1 more chance. They will need misfortune to Vettel to play its part, but it did for Webber. Alonso MUST also finish in the top 3, but a win should be the goal. My point is, don't give up until things are settled. And even then, don't give up, just look with great anticipation at the next possibilities and work your best to achieve the goal. My own weekend has proven, once again, that that is the only philosophy to have, and you can achieve things that were once the stuff of your imagination.;)

Cheers!

Pole

Edited by PoleMan, 19 November 2012 - 00:37.


#3653 Creepy

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 00:49

I think this Samurai will have his final battle today and lose it.


I see.

#3654 Obi Offiah

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 00:53

It was clearly the right move. I don't understand why people would think otherwise? Team play has always been a part of Grand Prix racing. Massa is completely out of the championship; Fernando has been in it all year. Another championship goes down to the last race. F1 can be so cool. :up:

:up:

#3655 MP422

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:04

Howdy ya'll! :D

While I was in Austin, it was more of a working vacation, so not much opportunity to post. I did peek in here a bit when I had a minute, but didn't dare do so after quali, as I feared the conversation here would resemble the last words of a suicide bomber.

Being at the track (Turn 1), it was really difficult to understand why Fernando was so off the pace. Temperature was definitely part of it, but the sun is strong in Texas, and things usually got heated up to near 70 degrees by late am, with everyone down to tee shirts. I think his problem was a combo of tyre temps, the new asphalt, new tweaks to the car, and maybe the Circuit of the Americas just not suiting him. Despite the lackluster quali, EVERYONE should be proud of the result. For those who didn't like the Ferrari Team's tactics, that really is just your problem. What they did was allowed (obviously!) and is just as valid as other allowed team tactics. What is probably more annoying to those folks is that Fernando managed to get another EFFING PODIUM! :lol: How did he do that? On the laps before he lined up for the grid, he was driving with a wide line into turn 1. I think he was anticipating trouble, and his strategy was to make sure there was some rubber there. Sure enough, when the red lights went out, he took that line and 4th place was the result! :clap:

Lewis, Vettel and Fernando drove sublimely today, and that podium truly represents the best in the sport. So glad that folks in Texas got to see that, PLUS a winner with Lewis' complexion. Not something seen in motor racing, generally. Massa also has saved the best for last, which is both great and a shame. This place was PACKED, which was mentioned by all the drivers and track announcers. A total sellout, and crowds were large even for the practices. Bodes well for the future of the race here! :up:

I need to run now, but my last words remain as they generally are: KEEP THE FAITH! Alonso is a dreamer, but is also a DO-ER! He believes that things that don't seem probable, can come true. That's because he has actually exprienced that happening. Not sure if you saw him encouraging his team when he took the podium with his index finger, "1 more!" 1 more race, with 1 more chance. They will need misfortune to Vettel to play its part, but it did for Webber. Alonso MUST also finish in the top 3, but a win should be the goal. My point is, don't give up until things are settled. And even then, don't give up, just look with great anticipation at the next possibilities and work your best to achieve the goal. My own weekend has proven, once again, that that is the only philosophy to have, and you can achieve things that were once the stuff of your imagination.;)

Cheers!

Pole



Hey they all wear helmets, I don't understand why you mention that in the year 2012. In america we have Basketball, Baseball, Hockey, and Football. All have black athletes. We have no problems with black athletes. We also have a black president.

#3656 ViMaMo

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:13

Massa was faster this weekend? Didnt watch the race. Good for him !! :up:

Hoping for a topsy turvy Brazilian qualifying and race. Rain please :clap:

#3657 Raelene

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:17

What amazes me is that it was all done very openly, as professed by Stefano Domenicali and Felipe Massa. Also lovely to hear from Felipe that he is probably the only driver who would do such acts of teamwork - Alonso has a great team around him, but then again, he deserves it maybe more than others.


and Nelson Piquet Jnr.

I'm not sure what I think about this team order (tactics) ...Alonso, IMO is good enough to win without his teammates helping him.

sound familiar ;)

#3658 JBLeon

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:48

We also have a black president.


He is actually a mulatto.

#3659 Bruce

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:07

and Nelson Piquet Jnr.

I'm not sure what I think about this team order (tactics) ...Alonso, IMO is good enough to win without his teammates helping him.

sound familiar ;)


Ferrari did what they had to do - result? Alonso has a 13 point defecit going into the final race. Given the car and the season, this is a miracle.

Do you think that Ferrari should have given the 7th place Massa preference? After all - his seventh place is set - he cannot advance.

Used to be in F1 that if a driver was having trouble with his car he'd pull over and ask for the car of his team mate - and the team would give it to him - world championships have been won this way. In 1956, Peter Collins voluntarily handed over his car to Fangio helping Fangio to win his 4th Championship and ensuring that Collins DID NOT become the first British F1 Champion. Wonder how this bb would be if these rules were allowed today???

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#3660 Raelene

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:16

Bruce

as I said - I'm not sure what I think of it..I do however understand why they did it and it was a clever move.

I just remember all the b!tching and moaning about ferrari in the past when they had another driver...now some of those most vocal detractors suddenly agree with their 1 driver team and tactics...hencemy "sound familar" comment

Anyway, I was also pointing okut to A-N that NPjr also sacraficed himself for FA (in relation to him saying no other team mate would)

#3661 fabr68

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:25

Between potentially losing the WDC or not. Ferrari chose wisely for exploring all the chances at their fingertips.

Haters are going to hate...

#3662 Bruce

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:37

Bruce

as I said - I'm not sure what I think of it..I do however understand why they did it and it was a clever move.

I just remember all the b!tching and moaning about ferrari in the past when they had another driver...now some of those most vocal detractors suddenly agree with their 1 driver team and tactics...hencemy "sound familar" comment

Anyway, I was also pointing okut to A-N that NPjr also sacraficed himself for FA (in relation to him saying no other team mate would)


Raelene - as you know - I was one of those slating MS back in the day - but my point would be that there is a HUGE difference between jiggery pokery in the second last race and Ferrari gifting Schumacher a win in race 6 of 17 - when MS had won 4 of the opening 5 races and finished 3rd in the only other...

Had Ferrari done this in race 6 I would be incensed. As it is - what does Massa have top lose? 7th place? What does FA have to gain - a Ferrari WDC? C'mon. Further - no one complained when MS tried to help Irvine to the 1997 crown...

#3663 Raelene

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:59

Bruce


Do you honestly beleive that Ferrari aren't the same as they were when MSC was there - you really don't think FA is their number one driver - you don't remember the "Fernando is faster than you"

Ferrari are operting no differently than they did when MSC was there. And like MSC was , Fernando is, IMO, the best driver of his day - I have no issue whatsoever about them focussing on the better driver - I'm just finding it quite funny now that those that bashed (ands, you were one) have suddenly seen the light ;)

How did you feel in regards to the NPJr crash to help Alonso was that ok?


Anyway, I love Alonso - I see so many similarities with Michael, which is why I've always followed him

Edited by Raelene, 19 November 2012 - 04:00.


#3664 kosmos

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:13

Alonso:

"Felipe was fantastic all weekend, quicker than me in all three qualifying sessions: we need him to be on this good form in Interlagos too, because we will be up against very strong opposition. We need to be a united team if we want to win!”


class act :up:

#3665 Bruce

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:20

Bruce


Do you honestly beleive that Ferrari aren't the same as they were when MSC was there - you really don't think FA is their number one driver - yu dokn't remember the "Fernando is faster than you"

Ferrari are operting no differently than they did when MSC was there. And like MSC was , Fernando is, IMO, the best driver of his day -

How did you feel in regards to the NPJr crash to help Alonso


Anyway, I love Alonso - I see so many similarities with Michael, which is why I've always followed him


Hi Raelene - well - first of all, Nelson pique tJr and FA have NOTHING to do with Ferrari - do they? But if you ask - I don't consider it a "win" for Alonso - it was a cheat. Did Alonso know? Perhaps. We don't.

Fernando is faster than you.... same deal. Race 11 is a lot different than race 6, init? Especially when you consider that MS had won 4 of 5 races of a 17 race season entering Austria. The difference is that in 2010, Alonso was Ferraris best chance at what was already a longish shot. In 2002, Schumacher won 11 times and never finished off the podium. I would argue two points - ; 1 - that cynicism is somewhat invited by Ferrari's actions in 2002, and that 2) Stephano Dominichalli is NOT Jean Todt.

Allteams will favour dominant drivers - but there is a line...

#3666 Raelene

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:32

the NPqjr reference - was, again, in response to A-N post so I wanted to hear what you thought about it.

I agree that MOST teams will favour a driver - but I still believe that Ferrari are no different to what they were in MSC's day - there is NO WAY that FAs not their number one driver...and will get all he advantages (plus more considering this race) that MSC got - like MSC, he also get's a say in who his teammate is.

re: 2010 - the points wasn't that great - in fact had they let Massa keep his win for Germany, and Alonso 2nd - there wasn't even 1 race win difference

Again - I've never had a problem with team orders, or number 1's - I'm just smiling at all the sudden changes of heart over the matter...

Edited by Raelene, 19 November 2012 - 04:33.


#3667 jstrains

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:47

Fernando: "We are in that line, separates winning and losing, be good or magical, dream or reality, is a thin line, and became familiar to us recently."

"The game continues in 7 days..! We must improve..! THANKS!!"

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Edited by jstrains, 19 November 2012 - 04:54.


#3668 Bruce

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:56

the NPqjr reference - was, again, in response to A-N post so I wanted to hear what you thought about it.

I agree that MOST teams will favour a driver - but I still believe that Ferrari are no different to what they were in MSC's day - there is NO WAY that FAs not their number one driver...and will get all he advantages (plus more considering this race) that MSC got - like MSC, he also get's a say in who his teammate is.

re: 2010 - the points wasn't that great - in fact had they let Massa keep his win for Germany, and Alonso 2nd - there wasn't even 1 race win difference

Again - I've never had a problem with team orders, or number 1's - I'm just smiling at all the sudden changes of heart over the matter...


A-N post? I'm lost - sorry. But my response to Nelson Piquet is that I think the move was egregious. Team orders is one thing,buggering the rest of the field to your advantage is another.

ALL teams will favour a driver - eventually - well - almost all- I think that McLaren 2007 would have given Hamilton the lowest points paying position as long as it prevented Alonso winning the WDC in the same car... but that is a "special case".

I've never really had a problem with team orders either... (and you are chuckling here, no doubt) - but "gifting" MS a win in race 6 of a 17 race season when he already has a stranglehold on the championship with 4 (soon to be 5) wins out of 6 is a far cry from from trying to maximize your opportunities with a car that finished 2nd in the WD and 3rd in the CC... especially when the comparison (2002) is a car that won the WDC with 144 points, the next best car finishing exactly half the points;77 - and the next best competitor at 50 points. Allow yourself a wry smile - but a comparison between 2010 and 2002 (or indeed 2012 and 2002) is invidious.



#3669 Raelene

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:12

the smile is getting bigger if you can't see that there really is no difference - and if you truly believe that Ferrari haven't favoured FA sinve he started. Ferrari is his team - Massa is only there as they have to field 2 teams

right thing to do IMO, but I've not changed my stance ;) :)

Anyway, we both know each others opinion on the matter - you've just softened yours now ;)

#3670 Bruce

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:07

the smile is getting bigger if you can't see that there really is no difference - and if you truly believe that Ferrari haven't favoured FA sinve he started. Ferrari is his team - Massa is only there as they have to field 2 teams

right thing to do IMO, but I've not changed my stance ;) :)

Anyway, we both know each others opinion on the matter - you've just softened yours now ;)



Naa - I've always believed in team orders... except when it makes a mockery of the team... :-)

#3671 bmardini

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:46

Naa - I've always believed in team orders... except when it makes a mockery of the team... :-)


Well the only difference between Ferrari and say RB is that Ferrari are more in-your-face about it. RB are very subtle. But then again RB are all "we have 2 # 1's, equal chance etc" whereas Ferrari openly admit that the driver on form and leading the points gets priority.

I've found there is a direct correlation between opponents of Ferrari's team orders and people who don't like Alonso. :D

#3672 topical

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:38

Dream scenario next weekend: Vettel crashes out, Alonso P1, Massa P2, Alonso pulls over to let Massa win, Alonso takes title. We can dream...

#3673 Ravenak

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:40

Fernando would never do that.

If he can take the win to seal the title, believe me he will, no matter the circumstances.

#3674 topical

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:54

Fernando would never do that.

If he can take the win to seal the title, believe me he will, no matter the circumstances.


Did you even read the post properly? I said Vettel DNFs. That would mean 2nd or even 3rd place is sufficient for Alonso. It would be a nice gesture to Massa.

Edited by topical, 19 November 2012 - 07:55.


#3675 Raelene

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:57

Well the only difference between Ferrari and say RB is that Ferrari are more in-your-face about it. RB are very subtle. But then again RB are all "we have 2 # 1's, equal chance etc" whereas Ferrari openly admit that the driver on form and leading the points gets priority.

I've found there is a direct correlation between opponents of Ferrari's team orders and people who don't like Alonso. :D


I found that was the same with Ferrari and Michael Schumacher - if you didn't like MSC you didn't like Ferrari's team orders...that has changed for some now though ;)

#3676 kosmos

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:36

Dream scenario next weekend: Vettel crashes out, Alonso P1, Massa P2, Alonso pulls over to let Massa win, Alonso takes title. We can dream...



I will like that too, but I fear the haters and idiots of the world will somehow try to use it to hurt him and Ferrari, not that I care anyway.


12 podiums already this year, he collect them the same way I collect stickers :rotfl:

#3677 Ferrari2183

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:14

What fantasy land do you live in? Ferrari are not strong anywhere and haven't been since Monza. The only hope is rain.

I think he has a point. Interlagos is brutal on the cars, not just mechanically but setup wise as well... Running at that altitude affects engine power massively as well as having to increase wing angles to achieve similar downforce levels because the air density is reduced. This is a double whammy because you have more drag for a given downforce level but less engine power when over 60% of the lap is spent on full throttle.

This is my understanding of the challenges of Interlagos in theory...

I think that this will be Red Bull's worst track since Monza.

#3678 wj_gibson

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:18

I always thought that one thing on which most F1 fans cuold agree was that team orders/tactics were an acceptable part of the sport in cases whereby the driver doing the sacrificing had no mathematical possibility of winning the WDC.

#3679 Ferrari2183

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:28

I always thought that one thing on which most F1 fans cuold agree was that team orders/tactics were an acceptable part of the sport in cases whereby the driver doing the sacrificing had no mathematical possibility of winning the WDC.

I don't care when it's done as long as it benefits the team but on this board team orders are acceptable for everybody else except Ferrari.

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#3680 Gintonious

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:40

Saw that emotion and belief on the podium again yesterday, I still firmly believe we can do this.

#3681 Gareth

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:49

Hi Raelene - well - first of all, Nelson pique tJr and FA have NOTHING to do with Ferrari - do they? But if you ask - I don't consider it a "win" for Alonso - it was a cheat. Did Alonso know? Perhaps. We don't.

Fernando is faster than you.... same deal. Race 11 is a lot different than race 6, init? Especially when you consider that MS had won 4 of 5 races of a 17 race season entering Austria. The difference is that in 2010, Alonso was Ferraris best chance at what was already a longish shot. In 2002, Schumacher won 11 times and never finished off the podium. I would argue two points - ; 1 - that cynicism is somewhat invited by Ferrari's actions in 2002, and that 2) Stephano Dominichalli is NOT Jean Todt.

Allteams will favour dominant drivers - but there is a line...

Oh dear Bruce ...

Race 6 is different to race 11, yes. As is doing it when there are no rules against it vs when there are. I think that one balances out.

Demoting a driver on the grid by voluntarily taking a 5 place penalty, to get your other driver 1 place up the grid - has that ever been done before? To claim that Austria '02 was somehow better than this is stretching things a lot.

I think all 3 moves (Austria 2002, Germany 2010, USA 2012) make a huge amount of sense and were sensible decisions by a team doing everything it can in a competitive sport. You could, though, at least have the decency to accept that the guy you support now is receiving the benefit of exactly the same approach as the guy you derided all those years. Alonso's treatment at Ferrari (and his No 2's) is the same as Schumacher's (and his No 2s') was. Tough to accept for many, for whom Schumacher was the great F1 enemy, I'm sure - but true.

#3682 LiJu914

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:00

Hi Raelene - well - first of all, Nelson pique tJr and FA have NOTHING to do with Ferrari - do they? But if you ask - I don't consider it a "win" for Alonso - it was a cheat. Did Alonso know? Perhaps. We don't.

Fernando is faster than you.... same deal. Race 11 is a lot different than race 6, init? Especially when you consider that MS had won 4 of 5 races of a 17 race season entering Austria. The difference is that in 2010, Alonso was Ferraris best chance at what was already a longish shot. In 2002, Schumacher won 11 times and never finished off the podium. I would argue two points - ; 1 - that cynicism is somewhat invited by Ferrari's actions in 2002, and that 2) Stephano Dominichalli is NOT Jean Todt.

Allteams will favour dominant drivers - but there is a line...


Of course you can easily say in hindsight that Austria 2002 was completely unnecessary, but you have to remember that there was a tire-war going on in that era - so the order could change quite quickly. In Malaysia and Interlagos Ferrari hadn´t even the fastest package (that´s "at least" 2 out the first 5).
Even without a tire-war we can occasionally witness the order changing significantly throughout a season - best example: In 2009 Button won 6 out the first 7 races and after that he didn´t win any of the last 10 races...
Afterwards Ferrari recognised, that they acted overcautiosly and certainly regretted it. I was also very disappointed, but i could see their point.

It was certainly incredibly hard for Rubens to move over in the 6th race of the season, but MSC had 50 points and RB had 6 points - so it was clear his WDC-ambitions had already vanished.

Edited by LiJu914, 19 November 2012 - 10:05.


#3683 Ravenak

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:22

Did you even read the post properly? I said Vettel DNFs. That would mean 2nd or even 3rd place is sufficient for Alonso. It would be a nice gesture to Massa.


Did you read my post properly?

I said he would NEVER do that, no matter the circumstances.

#3684 Taxi

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:22

Mark my words: Alonso will win it.

#3685 race addicted

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:33

I think so too.

#3686 Buttoneer

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:08

Moved discussion of the Whitmarsh comments to it's own topic as it is likely to raise the spectre of 2007 all over again.

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=177729

#3687 kosmos

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:44

Posted Image
Posted Image

Probably another form of diminish Vettel success.

#3688 Gintonious

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:48

The bloke is a class act, really hope he gets this championship, he really deserves it.

#3689 Gareth

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 17:09

Hamilton and Alonso seemed to be getting on very well, too, on the podium whilst Seb was being interviewed.

#3690 Watkins74

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 17:14

Moved discussion of the Whitmarsh comments to it's own topic as it is likely to raise the spectre of 2007 all over again.

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=177729

It's to bad there isn't a function on this board where if you want to talk about 2007 with Alonso, Hamilton, Massa and Raikkonen you would be forced to pay $1 through a paypal account. Posting something you have already said 5x before would require $5.

We could donate the money to charity and perhaps eliminate world hunger. :smoking:

#3691 speng

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 17:18

The bloke is a class act, really hope he gets this championship, he really deserves it.

He has done well this year but a class act, no.

#3692 mnmracer

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 17:37

He has done well this year but a class act, no.

Always thanking his team, admitting when he did not get most out of the car, applauding the winner while crossing the finish line.
Ugh, what a horrible person.

#3693 kosmos

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:15

Would I race in an American series like Nascar? I’ve never tried it out or even thought about it, but who knows in the future… When I’ve finished my Formula 1 career, sooner or later this could be a possibility.”



Interesting, I doubt he will try Nascar but I was under the impression (because he say it), that after F1 it was over.




lol, the next thing will be breaking a bottle of champagne against the bow of some rich guy ship.

#3694 Raelene

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:24

Oh dear Bruce ...

Race 6 is different to race 11, yes. As is doing it when there are no rules against it vs when there are. I think that one balances out.

Demoting a driver on the grid by voluntarily taking a 5 place penalty, to get your other driver 1 place up the grid - has that ever been done before? To claim that Austria '02 was somehow better than this is stretching things a lot.

I think all 3 moves (Austria 2002, Germany 2010, USA 2012) make a huge amount of sense and were sensible decisions by a team doing everything it can in a competitive sport. You could, though, at least have the decency to accept that the guy you support now is receiving the benefit of exactly the same approach as the guy you derided all those years. Alonso's treatment at Ferrari (and his No 2's) is the same as Schumacher's (and his No 2s') was. Tough to accept for many, for whom Schumacher was the great F1 enemy, I'm sure - but true.



well said

I'd even forgotten that when Felipe got the "Fernando is faster than you" call, that team orders were illegal ;)

My "wry smile" gets bigger by the day

Luckily for me I've not been hypocritical about it - and like both drivers :)


#3695 aditya-now

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:39

well said

I'd even forgotten that when Felipe got the "Fernando is faster than you" call, that team orders were illegal ;)

My "wry smile" gets bigger by the day

Luckily for me I've not been hypocritical about it - and like both drivers :)


quod licet jovi non licet bovi, Raelene!

Alonso being Jupiter, Schumacher being the bull, of course. But how should you have known that.... :p


#3696 Raelene

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:44

???

#3697 Jejking

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:21

Same. What the duck fid I just read?

#3698 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:43

Same. What the duck fid I just read?


http://en.wikipedia...._non_licet_bovi

#3699 Raelene

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:06

A-N is definately one that has double standards ;)

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#3700 Gintonious

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 17:13

I saw that he opened the stock exchange in NY, savage.