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Fernando Alonso - Part II


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#3801 K-One

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 22:00

Alonso sucks lately, been losing to Massa since Felipe got his contract renewed. Even with clear nr1 status, he is slower. Not worthy Wdc imho

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#3802 Smile17

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 22:15

Alonso sucks lately, been losing to Massa since Felipe got his contract renewed. Even with clear nr1 status, he is slower. Not worthy Wdc imho


Yes and with all that going on, he's still just 13 points off Vettel in a superior Redbull. Go figure... ;)

#3803 Creepy

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 22:16

Alonso sucks lately, been losing to Massa since Felipe got his contract renewed. Even with clear nr1 status, he is slower. Not worthy Wdc imho


What a comment. :down:

Vettel has also a clear nº1 status and has been beat by Webber several times too, do that means Vettel ain't worthy either? If you think he does, why it's different with Alonso? :confused:

#3804 SCUDmissile

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 22:21

It is hilarious the amount of knee jerk opinions here...
Alonso wasn't happy with the cars balance, everyone has that at some weekends.

#3805 fisssssi

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 22:25

Stupid comment. At the season's end, Alonso wins the qualifying battle 17-3 against Massa.

Vettel only just beat Webber, 11-9.

#3806 mnmracer

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 22:26

At least it's a nice wake-up call for those saying Vettel had lost it when Webber outqualified him a couple times ;-)
They're both only human. Even Senna was outqualified by Johnny Cecotto twice.

Edited by mnmracer, 24 November 2012 - 22:27.


#3807 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 23:52

I just hope all those gearbox issues have been sorted out


Nobody ever claimed any.

#3808 Mc_Silver

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 00:04

Yes and with all that going on, he's still just 13 points off Vettel in a superior Redbull. Go figure...;)


It is not hard to figure, is it? Look at how many reliability issues and team cock-ups Vettel and especially Lewis had this year. Alonso also had lots of help not only from his team-mate but also from other car's problems, penalties etc.

#3809 TailG

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 00:10

At least it's a nice wake-up call for those saying Vettel had lost it when Webber outqualified him a couple times ;-)
They're both only human. Even Senna was outqualified by Johnny Cecotto twice.


And by Hakkinen in Mika's first qualifying at McLaren. Portugal '93 IIRC.

#3810 Longtimefan

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 00:21

I'd love Alonso to win the WDC, even just to shut up Helmut Marko.



#3811 mnmracer

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 00:26

And by Hakkinen in Mika's first qualifying at McLaren. Portugal '93 IIRC.

Just naming one that really shouldn't have happened.
At least Mika turned out to be quite a good driver :)
Tarso Marques or Vitantonio Liuzzi on the other hand :lol:

#3812 Anonymous

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 00:29

Yes and with all that going on, he's still just 13 points off Vettel in a superior Redbull. Go figure...;)


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#3813 Disgrace

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 00:30

Stupid comment. At the season's end, Alonso wins the qualifying battle 17-3 against Massa.

Vettel only just beat Webber, 11-9.


But don't you know, the end of the season counts for more than the beginning! That's why at the end of the year, qualification and points are worth doub... oh wait, no they're not.


#3814 Disgrace

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 00:44

It is not hard to figure, is it? Look at how many reliability issues and team cock-ups Vettel and especially Lewis had this year. Alonso also had lots of help not only from his team-mate but also from other car's problems, penalties etc.


Only at Austin, and one case doesn't qualify as "lots" in my opinion.

Massa has taken no points off Vettel at all in all of the races they've both finished in the points. Nada. Zilch. Conversely, Webber has taken points off Alonso six times in the races they've both finished in the points.

You can argue Massa has helped simply by taking no points away from his team-mate but Webber has only finished ahead of Vettel three times when they've both scored. It has averaged such that a competitive team-mate has been the more useful one.

#3815 mnmracer

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:31

It's a trade-off.

Vettel and (even more so) Hamilton were 'lucky' with fast but unreliable cars.
Alonso was 'lucky' with a competitive but very reliable car.

Just look at where Hamilton is in the standings.
Look at Vettel and Webber. Vettel was faster in 7 out of the first 10 races, yet Webber was still ahead in the standings after Germany.

Speed is only part of the equation. Reliability is equally important, as evidenced not only this year, but in plenty of seasons (2005 and 2010 spring to mind recently).

Edited by mnmracer, 25 November 2012 - 01:31.


#3816 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:42

It's a trade-off.

Vettel and (even more so) Hamilton were 'lucky' with fast but unreliable cars.
Alonso was 'lucky' with a competitive but very reliable car.

Just look at where Hamilton is in the standings.
Look at Vettel and Webber. Vettel was faster in 7 out of the first 10 races, yet Webber was still ahead in the standings after Germany.

Speed is only part of the equation. Reliability is equally important, as evidenced not only this year, but in plenty of seasons (2005 and 2010 spring to mind recently).


It's completely unfair to Lewis to compare his & Seb's issues. Lewis has been far more unlucky than Vettel. Vettel has only had 1 reliability issue that I can recall, so comparing them is absurd.

Everyone here acts like Ferrari's reliability is king of everything and that the F2012 is very quick. Yet even as of right now if you told Vettel he could start the season over right now, take his RB8 or the F2012 we all know he'd take the RB8. And I'd be willing to bet Fernando would take the better RB8 as well. So lets not act like these two cars are on equal ground because they're not.

#3817 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:44

It is hilarious the amount of knee jerk opinions here...
Alonso wasn't happy with the cars balance, everyone has that at some weekends.


Utterly ridiculous, I question the IQ of some of the posters here.

#3818 mnmracer

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 02:20

It's completely unfair to Lewis to compare his & Seb's issues. Lewis has been far more unlucky than Vettel. Vettel has only had 1 reliability issue that I can recall, so comparing them is absurd.

Obviously Vettel's is not as bad as Hamilton's hence why Vettel is still fighting for the title.
Misunderstanding one part of the quote, is no excuse to ignore the other though.

Red Bull as a team has 15 podium finishes.
Fernando Alonso alone has 12 podium finishes.

If Alonso was that good, he would not have been stood up by Massa lately.

Everyone here acts like Ferrari's reliability is king of everything and that the F2012 is very quick. Yet even as of right now if you told Vettel he could start the season over right now, take his RB8 or the F2012 we all know he'd take the RB8. And I'd be willing to bet Fernando would take the better RB8 as well. So lets not act like these two cars are on equal ground because they're not.

They're not on complete equal ground as far as speed goes.
They're not on equal ground as far as reliability goes.

Even if you're having trouble accepting it for Alonso, Kimi 2005, Vettel 2010, Hamilton 2012 and Vettel/Webber-matchup 2012 show the worth of reliabilty though.

As far as the best car to have over the season?
Probably the Red Bull, but by a small margin.
Both Vettel and Alonso have driven fantastic this year, and both have made their mistakes and underperformed a couple times.

Edited by mnmracer, 25 November 2012 - 02:25.


#3819 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 02:40

Obviously Vettel's is not as bad as Hamilton's hence why Vettel is still fighting for the title.
Misunderstanding one part of the quote, is no excuse to ignore the other though.

Red Bull as a team has 15 podium finishes.
Fernando Alonso alone has 12 podium finishes.

If Alonso was that good, he would not have been stood up by Massa lately.


They're not on complete equal ground as far as speed goes.
They're not on equal ground as far as reliability goes.

Even if you're having trouble accepting it for Alonso, Kimi 2005, Vettel 2010, Hamilton 2012 and Vettel/Webber-matchup 2012 show the worth of reliabilty though.

As far as the best car to have over the season?
Probably the Red Bull, but by a small margin.
Both Vettel and Alonso have driven fantastic this year, and both have made their mistakes and underperformed a couple times.

Fernando has 12 & Seb has 10. But Vettel has more wins what's your point? Someone could say if Vettel was as good as many claim Mark wouldn't have been beating him early in the season. But that's rubbish, same as your comment about Fernando & Felipe.

Again, you bring up reliability but yet both Fernando & Vettl have only been affected by reliability issues once each this year. It's funny when you speak about Fernando under performing you say he can't be that good. Yet you admit Seb has yet you don't speak the same words about him. You're all over the place with inaccurate statements & double standards. You're showing your true colors quite quickly. :wave:


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#3820 mnmracer

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 02:54

I know it can be difficult adressing something which invalidates your point, but simply ignoring the factual examples given does not make them go away.
If you believe to be correct, be a man an adress them.

Fernando has 12 & Seb has 10. But Vettel has more wins what's your point? Someone could say if Vettel was as good as many claim Mark wouldn't have been beating him early in the season. But that's rubbish, same as your comment about Fernando & Felipe.

You're clearly missing the point.
If Fernando Alonso was so good that he could achieve these results with how bad the Ferrari is claimed to be, he would not be beaten by Felipe consecutively.
But as Felipe shows Alonso is not infallable (sp?), it is obvious that Alonso would not have been able to have these results without a decent car.

This has nothing to do with Vettel.

Again, you bring up reliability but yet both Fernando & Vettl have only been affected by reliability issues once each this year. It's funny when you speak about Fernando under performing you say he can't be that good. Yet you admit Seb has yet you don't speak the same words about him. You're all over the place with inaccurate statements & double standards. You're showing your true colors quite quickly. :wave:

I do not expect everyone to have pin-point accurate memory, but if you haven't, please be aware that some of your projections can be based on incorrect statements.

Vettel: Valencia, Monza, Abu Dhabi (45 pt, +10 profited by Alonso (7 in Valencia, 3 in Abu Dhabi)
Alonso: Monza (10 pt, +0 profited by Vettel)

Edited by mnmracer, 25 November 2012 - 02:56.


#3821 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:12

I know it can be difficult adressing something which invalidates your point, but simply ignoring the factual examples given does not make them go away.
If you believe to be correct, be a man an adress them.


You're clearly missing the point.
If Fernando Alonso was so good that he could achieve these results with how bad the Ferrari is claimed to be, he would not be beaten by Felipe consecutively.
But as Felipe shows Alonso is not infallable (sp?), it is obvious that Alonso would not have been able to have these results without a decent car.

This has nothing to do with Vettel.


I do not expect everyone to have pin-point accurate memory, but if you haven't, please be aware that some of your projections can be based on incorrect statements.

Vettel: Valencia, Monza, Abu Dhabi (45 pt, +10 profited by Alonso (7 in Valencia, 3 in Abu Dhabi)
Alonso: Monza (10 pt, +0 profited by Vettel)


Felipe did not beat Fenando in Abu Dhabi. So how are you saying he beat him consecutively? Your statement is blatanly false unless you consider Felipe Qualifying better beating Alonso. Last time i che ked points werent handed out for Quli. And of course you're e titled to your opinion but of course I'll side with drivers & pundits that agree he's put the car in places it didn't belong. Funny you refer to the F2012 as decent though. One of the only true things to come from you

Yes I forgot about the Alternator failure in Monza. However Abu Dhabi wasn't a reliability problem and for you to portray it as that is completely dishonest. But a quick look at your post history shows your objective is to denegrate Fernando as much as you can. All on the basis that his teammate has finally shown up to races.
I'm one of the most objective posters on this board but your intentions are quite clear & this is the last time I address you. Good day sir.


#3822 mnmracer

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:28

Felipe did not beat Fenando in Abu Dhabi. So how are you saying he beat him consecutively? Your statement is blatanly false unless you consider Felipe Qualifying better beating Alonso. Last time i che ked points werent handed out for Quli.

Korea, Felipe was faster but held back.
Japan, no race pace to compare, but Alonso drove into Kimi himself.
USA, speaks for itself.

And of course you're e titled to your opinion but of course I'll side with drivers & pundits that agree he's put the car in places it didn't belong.

The problem with you & pundits, is that NONE of that is substantiated.
It's all nothing but gut feeling.
I asked you to substantiate any claims, and you CAN'T even do that. If Alonso is the magic driver you make him out to be, certainly it would be easy?

Yes I forgot about the Alternator failure in Monza. However Abu Dhabi wasn't a reliability problem and for you to portray it as that is completely dishonest.

Right, and the FIA and Renault are all in on it.
And Red Bull employs the biggest idiots on the planet who, while planning to underfuel the car, still fail to stop Vettel in time to make their plan work.
William of Ockham disagrees with you.

But a quick look at your post history shows your objective is to denegrate Fernando as much as you can. All on the basis that his teammate has finally shown up to races.

Bullshit and you know it. My objective is to replace all these gut-feelings with some hard facts.
I am not the one making Fernando Alonso (or anyone) out to be a god. I'm simply stating he's a great racing driver.
A god would not be stood up by his team-mate, a great racing driver can.

But apparently stating that the Ferrari is not as bad as a HRT is your idea of denegrating Fernando.
Apparently saying that Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso have all done extremely well this year and were very matched, is denegrating Alonso.
Well, if saying that he is not a god is your idea of denegration, then that sir is your fallacy.

I'm one of the most objective posters on this board but your intentions are quite clear & this is the last time I address you. Good day sir.

Good day, a shame that you cowardly leave with the tail between your legs rather than adressing the facts shown to you.
It's a shame really, you seem like a good guy but your fear of adressing facts and differentiating between facts and gut feelings, is holding you back.

Edited by mnmracer, 25 November 2012 - 03:33.


#3823 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:29

Alonso finished the 2010 season so strongly, he was an unstoppable force.

This year he seems to be fading a bit as the season peaks. It was telling after Kimi's win in the ready room just before the podium ceremony, I was surprised to see Alonso looking like a spent force while Kimi and Vettel were still full of energy. His qualifying efforts have hurt him and now Alonso has fallen behind his teammate for the first time. Is it the longer season, his new russian girlfriend? Imo something seems to be off. Alonso will have to dig deep tomorrow to have a chance.

Where is 2010 Alonso when you need him? Maybe he will return at Brazil.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 25 November 2012 - 03:34.


#3824 Ravenak

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:35

Alonso finished the 2010 season so strongly, he was an unstoppable force.

This year he seems to be fading a bit as the season peaks. It was telling after Kimi's win in the ready room just before the podium ceremony, I was surprised to see Alonso looking like a spent force while Kimi and Vettel were still full of energy. His qualifying efforts have hurt him and now Alonso has fallen behind his teammate for the first time. Is it the longer season, his new russian girlfriend? Imo something seems to be off. Alonso will have to dig deep tomorrow to have a chance.

Where is 2010 Alonso when you need him? Maybe he will return at Brazil.


For funks sake, what the hell are you talking about? He's been on the podium in the last 4 races.

Felipe's resurgence only lies in the different directions they have taken with the evolutions of the car.

#3825 George Costanza

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:37

Alonso finished the 2010 season so strongly, he was an unstoppable force.

This year he seems to be fading a bit as the season peaks. It was telling after Kimi's win in the ready room just before the podium ceremony, I was surprised to see Alonso looking like a spent force while Kimi and Vettel were still full of energy. His qualifying efforts have hurt him and now Alonso has fallen behind his teammate for the first time. Is it the longer season, his new russian girlfriend? Imo something seems to be off. Alonso will have to dig deep tomorrow to have a chance.

Where is 2010 Alonso when you need him? Maybe he will return at Brazil.



Alonso's 2012 form is a bit better than his 2010 form. The car in 2010 was significantly better than 2012.... That plays a role.

#3826 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:21

AUS: Fernando - MAS over 1 second behind in Q. Neither made to Q3

MAL: Fernando ahead 0.352 MAS didn't make Q3

CHN: Fernando ahead 0.273 MAS didn't make Q3

BRN: Fernando ahead 0.509 MAS didn't make Q3

BCN: Fernando ahead 0.582(1.142 Q3 time) MAS didn't make Q3

MON: Fernando ahead 0.101

CAN: Fernando ahead 0.314

VAL: Fernano ahead 0.073 neither make Q3

GBR: Fernando ahead 1.319

GER: Fernando ahead 1.961 MAS didn't ake Q3

HUN: Fernando ahead 0.039

BEL: Fernando ahead 0.549(0.839 Q3 time) MAS didn't make Q3

ITA: Felipe ahead(Fer problem) 1.431

SIN: Fernando ahead 0.777 MAS didn't make Q3

JPN: Fernando ahead 0.46 MAS didn't make Q3

KOR: Fernando ahead 0.35

IND: Fernando ahead 0.084

ADU: Fernando ahead 0.141

USA: Felipe ahead 0.363

BRA: Felipe ahead 0.266


There's the Quali figures for the season, 17-3 Fernando leads. Race wins 3-0 Fernando wins. Better finishing position 16-3(giving MAS Austin) 16-3.

I'm a Ferrari guy, not an individual driver guy, but Fernando has easily defeated his teammate throughout the season and by a large margin. The only time they had different equipment was India, Austin was by choice.
I hardly believe a bright spot here or there is "spanking" their teammate. The data speaks for itself.












#3827 Kelateboy

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:39

It's a trade-off.

Vettel and (even more so) Hamilton were 'lucky' with fast but unreliable cars.
Alonso was 'lucky' with a competitive but very reliable car.

Just look at where Hamilton is in the standings.
Look at Vettel and Webber. Vettel was faster in 7 out of the first 10 races, yet Webber was still ahead in the standings after Germany.

Speed is only part of the equation. Reliability is equally important, as evidenced not only this year, but in plenty of seasons (2005 and 2010 spring to mind recently).

+1 :up:

If you talk about pure speed this year, the McLarens are obviously the class of the field. Only reliability and operational cock-ups were the main reasons why they are not 2013 WDC/WCC.

#3828 Hanzo

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:53

The problem with you & pundits, is that NONE of that is substantiated.
It's all nothing but gut feeling.
I asked you to substantiate any claims, and you CAN'T even do that. If Alonso is the magic driver you make him out to be, certainly it would be easy?

Bullshit and you know it. My objective is to replace all these gut-feelings with some hard facts.
I am not the one making Fernando Alonso (or anyone) out to be a god.
I'm simply stating he's a great racing driver.
A god would not be stood up by his team-mate, a great racing driver can.




Well, you can not replace anything with hard facts since you are starting all this argument from the false claim that we are saying that Alonso is a god. The fact that you are not quoting anybody`s words saying that in this thread proves my point.

Most people here, myself included, think that Alonso is the best driver out there and that he is the driver of the season. Now, "you can try to replace that gut-feeling with some hard facts" but you will lose your time, and really there is no point to try to convince me unless you really want to look like a clown using your "hard facts" against people preferences and opinions. Don't patronise us with your objetivism and hard facts, I am not buying any of that.

My main point is that nobody here said that he is a god or a superhuman. So all this "Fanboys think Alonso is god and he bends the rules of physics" really backfires at you since the person that was closer to say such thing was a man called Ross Brawn, and believe me, I give the man a little bit more of credit than any of your opinions and facts.




"He is simply one of the all-time greats," Ross Brawn said on Friday, as the Mercededes team principal sheltered under a vast umbrella at Silverstone. "He wins races he shouldn't win, races that he's got no right to win. And that's the mark of a great driver. He's not had a great car this year but he's on top of the championship. He has managed to get there because of what he is, the driver he is."


Yep, that's it. Not only a great driver, he is one of the all time greats as well. He wins races he should not win. Oh!, and he did not had a great car this year.
Now please go and discuss the matter with Mr. Brawn, or with the specific person who said here that he is a god, and give the good people who does not start arguments based on false claims a rest. ¿Please?

#3829 2ms

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:50

Alonso is definitely an all time great. If he wins another championship or so, then I think he will go down as someone considered roughly similar to someone like Hakkinen -- one of the best of very best of his generation. Realistically speaking, though, Vettel will overshadow him by a mile in the long run, much like Schumacher overshadowed Hakkinen. I also see Raikkonen and Hamilton winning another couple championships between them, if they can ever get competitive enough cars. Those guys arguably have already been the drivers who really deserved a couple championships the most, from strictly driving perspective, a couple years respectively where instead Alonso and Vettel got the honors. We're in an era where there are a large number of very closely matched drivers.

Edited by 2ms, 25 November 2012 - 05:53.


#3830 Hanzo

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 06:15

Alonso is definitely an all time great. If he wins another championship or so, then I think he will go down as someone considered roughly similar to someone like Hakkinen -- one of the best of very best of his generation. Realistically speaking, though, Vettel will overshadow him by a mile in the long run, much like Schumacher overshadowed Hakkinen. I also see Raikkonen and Hamilton winning another couple championships between them, if they can ever get competitive enough cars. Those guys arguably have already been the drivers who really deserved a couple championships the most, from strictly driving perspective, a couple years respectively where instead Alonso and Vettel got the honors. We're in an era where there are a large number of very closely matched drivers.



Nice to read an opinion written without the intention of "educate" us. Obviously time will tell how all these drivers will be regarded in the future. Predictions are very risky at this point, we only can guess. Maybe a different driver wins two titles in a row, maybe some driver has an accident like Kubica...(I hope not!!)
But I fully agree with your last phrase.

#3831 jstrains

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:18

FA on Facebook: "Pastor has had a penalty and we are seventh, Saturdays are uncertain in last races ...! One less position to the podium we desired.."

#3832 Kelateboy

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:24

Nice to read an opinion written without the intention of "educate" us. Obviously time will tell how all these drivers will be regarded in the future. Predictions are very risky at this point, we only can guess. Maybe a different driver wins two titles in a row, maybe some driver has an accident like Kubica...(I hope not!!)
But I fully agree with your last phrase.

Alonso will one day be considered as an all time great,and he will be more than just a 2-time WDC. He lost 2010 to Vettel and might be on the losing end again today, but eventually, he will get the better of Vettel in the future because he is that good. Realistically for 2013, it will be a straight fight for the WDC between him and Vettel. By moving to Mercedes next year, Hamilton has effectively taken himself out of the championship battle for next year and possibly 2014 as well. I don't see Button, even if McLaren has a rocketship (that is a big IF), to be able to mount a serious challenge to Vettel and Alonso for the WDC.

#3833 bmardini

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:38

Alonso finished the 2010 season so strongly, he was an unstoppable force.

This year he seems to be fading a bit as the season peaks. It was telling after Kimi's win in the ready room just before the podium ceremony, I was surprised to see Alonso looking like a spent force while Kimi and Vettel were still full of energy. His qualifying efforts have hurt him and now Alonso has fallen behind his teammate for the first time. Is it the longer season, his new russian girlfriend? Imo something seems to be off. Alonso will have to dig deep tomorrow to have a chance.

Where is 2010 Alonso when you need him? Maybe he will return at Brazil.


I sort of agree with you on this. In 2010 Fernando won the 1st race, and won a total of 5 races that season. The 2010 Ferrari was way more competitive than the F2012 - often in the races it was the quickest car.

This year he's having to try so much harder, running so much closer to the limit, and on these weird Pirellis. Fernando has been through Michelins, Bridgestones and now Pirelli. It takes its toll to have to re-learn things over and over and to adapt what you are doing. So yeah he looks exhausted, like the weight of the world is on his shoulders. He can't afford a single mistake on any lap, and thus he makes more of them.

He would love the RB8. Vettel always drives like he believes he has the fastest car, which has a hell of a psychological effect I guarantee you (hence chasing times in P1, P2, P3).

So yeah FA seems beat, and maybe he just wants it to be over like a lot of here do.

#3834 Curt000

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:40

Anybody get sneaky feeling massa will run into vettel .

#3835 Kelateboy

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:45

Anybody get sneaky feeling massa will run into vettel .

Massa is a professional. I don't believe any driver would run into a championship contender on purpose just to hand his teammate the title. If Massa was fighting for the title himself, then that's a totally different story just like Prost v Senna years ago. :)

#3836 kosmos

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:51

Anybody get sneaky feeling massa will run into vettel .



No, if you mean it in a sense that Massa will run into Vettel to help Fernando, no, I don't think so, if the race it's wet, there is the chance of a driving mistake by Massa (or other people), by I don't want that either. I want a clean race, only Fernando vs Vettel (with Massa and Webber helping), others should mind their business and don't mess with them.

#3837 as65p

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:00

FA on Facebook: "Pastor has had a penalty and we are seventh, Saturdays are uncertain in last races ...! One less position to the podium we desired.."


He's talking as if the only chance is a Vettel DNF, in which case a podium place would do the job. Not that exciting, but quite realistic - I reckon the chances of Vettel finishing, but in only in the lower points ranks, are close to zero. If the car holds and Vettel doesn't make a mistake it's pretty much over.

#3838 Ravenak

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:02

[quote name='as65p' post='6044671' date='Nov 25 2012, 10:00'I reckon the chances of Vettel finishing, but in only in the lower points ranks, are close to zero. If the car holds and Vettel doesn't make a mistake it's pretty much over.[/quote]

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Edited by Ravenak, 25 November 2012 - 09:02.


#3839 jstrains

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:17

I hope you all had a good sleep and are ready for what we all hope will be a big day for Fernando and his fans. Today's fate is already written somewhere in the stars just we don't know it yet. Prepare you Ferrari caps and Spanish flags and see you here in the evening after the race

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#3840 jeze

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:54

Maybe Massa will crash into everybody in front tomorrow.

Making an RBR sandwich and then running away with the crash helmet on should just be enough :rotfl:




#3841 evol88

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:56

Anybody get sneaky feeling massa will run into vettel .


He hasn't got involved on the other occasions his teammates were involved in title deciders, so I see no reason why today would be any different. Thing is, if there is a genuine racing incident in turn 1 involving SV and FM, most people won't believe it was an accident!

#3842 Kelateboy

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:09

It's completely unfair to Lewis to compare his & Seb's issues. Lewis has been far more unlucky than Vettel. Vettel has only had 1 reliability issue that I can recall, so comparing them is absurd.

Vettel has had 2 reliability issues - first while leading in Valencia, and second in Monza. Both led to retirements and both because of alternators' issues.

He also had to retire in Malaysia because of an incident with a backmarker while chasing Lewis Hamilton for a podium finish.

#3843 mnmracer

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:48

Well, you can not replace anything with hard facts since you are starting all this argument from the false claim that we are saying that Alonso is a god. The fact that you are not quoting anybody`s words saying that in this thread proves my point.

If Alonso is challenging for the championship in a car that is as bad as some people are trying to make you believe, he is either challenging the weakest driver field since the introduction of auto racing, or he is a god.

Most people here, myself included, think that Alonso is the best driver out there and that he is the driver of the season.

I will not dispute that; I only dispute how god-like his abilities are made out to be.

He is not a god-like being that drove the Ferrari 2 seconds faster a lap than anyone else could have.
He is also not the only decent driver in a field of amateurs.
Like all the other cars, the Ferrari had off days, but like the Red Bull and the McLaren, it was very able to challenge for the podiums and at times wins.

Fernando is an all-time great that drove a great season in a very competitive and bulletproof car.

He wins races he should not win.

There, right there.
The same myth that has been chimed all year, but that is never substantiated.

If you can substantiate any of the following facts, I will gladly concede.

Malaysian Grand Prix
Is there reason to believe Vettel and Hamilton could not have...
...overtaken Nico Rosberg in lap 1 (Schumacher and Grosjean clashed) from p8 to p5.
...overtaken Mark Webber for p4.
...leapfrogged Button and Hamilton in the pits for p2.
...overtaken Sergio Perez for p1 and defend against him for the 3 laps he was within 2 seconds.

European Grand Prix
Is there reason to believe Vettel and Hamilton could not have...
...jumped from p11 to p8 in lap 1 (Massa moved from p13 to p10, also past Rosberg and Button).
...overtaken Hülkenberg and Maldonado on soft tires, with those two on medium.
...overtaken Webber, Senna, Schumacher and di Resta on old tires for p4.
...overtaken Hamilton in the pits for p3 when McLaren screwed up the pit stop.
...overtaken Grosjean on the restart (not too unsimilair to Vettel's move on Rosberg in Australia; I have little doubt Lewis could not make that move).
...picked up the win when the race leader's alternator failed.

German Grand Prix
Is there reason to believe Vettel and Hamilton could not have...
...taken pole position on much fresher tires.
...lead the race from the front (Massa's free air pace was not too dissimilar).

Now, as I said, Fernando Alonso is a great driver, who drove some great races, but there is no reason to Sebastian Vettel or Lewis Hamilton could not have won those races in those circumstances. If you believe there is, please point to where Alonso put in a performance the other two great drivers on the great would not have been able to.

Edited by mnmracer, 25 November 2012 - 10:49.


#3844 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:18

@mnmracer: Get off your high horse. Whatever you think, the regulars in this thread really don't need the help of someone who joined the BB 2 months ago to accept facts, nor to keep our feet on the ground. And even if we did, you're like the twentieth guy this year coming here with the assumption that we do, and giving us unneeded lectures. Well, or maybe it's all the same guy with different nicks - you started posting around the time cilurnum stopped.

It's time for you to stop speculating and wishing that things were different.

... but here is no reason to Sebastian Vettel or Lewis Hamilton could not have won those races in those circumstances. If you believe there is, please point to where Alonso put in a performance the other two great drivers on the great would not have been able to.


You say you are so fond of facts. I like Vettel, and he is a top class driver together with Alonso, Hamilton, and maybe Raikkonen. But the fact is that here we are in Sao Paulo, and Vettel still has not sewn up the WDC in a clearly superior car.

EDIT: And stop lying that we ascribe god-like abilities to Alonso. No we don't, and if someone does he will receive the deserved criticism. Hanzo already explained this to you, and yet you continue building this straw man, and burning it down with great ceremony. It's the mark of a troll.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 25 November 2012 - 11:23.


#3845 mnmracer

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:24

@mnmracer: Get off your high horse. Whatever you think, the regulars in this thread really don't need the help of someone who joined the BB 2 months ago to accept facts, nor to keep our feet on the ground. And even if we did, you're like the twentieth guy this year coming here with the assumption that we do, and giving us unneeded lectures. Well, or maybe it's all the same guy with different nicks - you started posting around the time cilurnum stopped.

It's time for you to stop speculating and wishing that things were different.

You say you are so fond of facts. I like Vettel, and he is a top class driver together with Alonso, Hamilton, and maybe Raikkonen. But the fact is that here we are in Sao Paulo, and Vettel still has no sewn up the WDC in a clearly superior car.

You do a great job doding the question, I'll give you that.
It's sad that not even you are convinced of your own religion, yet you still refuse to give credit.
I mean- if it was as clear-cut as you make it out to be, certainly you could easily dispell it. Certainly more easily than writing what you just did.

If someone were to make an outrageous claim, say, the earth is flat, what would be the most sensible way to reply?
argue why this person is wrong and idiotic to make that claim,
or show in two simple sentences why he is wrong.

EDIT: And stop lying that we ascribe god-like abilities to Alonso. No we don't, and if someone does he will receive the deserved criticism. Hanzo already explained this to you, and yet you continue building this straw man, and burning it down with great ceremony. It's the mark of a troll.


If Alonso is challenging for the championship in a car that is as bad as some people are trying to make you believe, he is either challenging the weakest driver field since the introduction of auto racing, or he is a god.

Edited by mnmracer, 25 November 2012 - 11:25.


#3846 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:29

You do a great job doding the question, I'll give you that.
It's sad that not even you are convinced of your own religion, yet you still refuse to give credit.
I mean- if it was as clear-cut as you make it out to be, certainly you could easily dispell it. Certainly more easily than writing what you just did.

If someone were to make an outrageous claim, say, the earth is flat, what would be the most sensible way to reply?
argue why this person is wrong and idiotic to make that claim,
or show in two simple sentences why he is wrong.


I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for one more post, and will assume you are not a troll. Therefore, let me explain something to you: Those things were discussed on this BB many years ago, and all through this year, and to me it's an old discussion I am not interested in. It's fine if you are new to the the BB, but I am not required to enter boring old discussions with you just because you missed the previous twenty times.

If you want to discuss people claiming Alonso is a god, bring the quotes or STFU. (Edit: and it better be recent quotes that haven't been challenged yet)

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 25 November 2012 - 11:32.


#3847 mnmracer

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:45

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for one more post, and will assume you are not a troll. Therefore, let me explain something to you: Those things were discussed on this BB many years ago, and all through this year, and to me it's an old discussion I am not interested in. It's fine if you are new to the the BB, but I am not required to enter boring old discussions with you just because you missed the previous twenty times.

If you want to discuss people claiming Alonso is a god, bring the quotes or STFU. (Edit: and it better be recent quotes that haven't been challenged yet)


I will be happy to do some research, but just so I don't waste my time, I am to understand that it has been discussed:
- how Vettel and Hamilton would not have won those three races given those circumstances
- how claiming Alonso is fighting for the championship in a car as bad as it is made out to be, is not assigning him god-like skills

If so, I will be happy to search and enrich my experience with those answers.

#3848 Gintonious

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:49

We best get dancing for the rain, apparently its blue sky galore over there now.

#3849 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:59

I will be happy to do some research, but just so I don't waste my time, I am to understand that it has been discussed:
- how Vettel and Hamilton would not have won those three races given those circumstances
- how claiming Alonso is fighting for the championship in a car as bad as it is made out to be, is not assigning him god-like skills

If so, I will be happy to search and enrich my experience with those answers.


When you are older you will understand that most of the time you're wrong when you think you are the first one who has come up with some idea or argument.

#3850 Jovanotti

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:05

Never thought I'd be saying this one day, but I'll be rooting for Fernando this evening. If it rains, Alonso should have a fair chance to get on the podium, about the rest we'll have to care later.