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Mark Webber - Part II


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#451 Callahan

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 11:58

The 1st lap will be " interesting ". Mark starting on the Medium tyre. Go son.

Edited by Callahan, 29 July 2012 - 12:01.


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#452 Hippo

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 12:23

Nice start. Passed 4 cars before turn 3. :up:

#453 Rentta

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 13:49

F*king diff problem :evil:

#454 v@sh

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 13:50

What a f up from rbr with their strategy. Should have been fifth and cut Alonso's lead.

#455 Callahan

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 13:52

Really disappointed with that considering he was 5th at one stage and miles ahead of Alonso. Don't know how much the diff failure hurt him but a crap result no less. ): ):

Edited by Callahan, 29 July 2012 - 13:53.


#456 Powerslave

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 13:53

Stooopid pit stop, thats just retarded! :evil:

#457 icecream

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 13:55

webber was on the wrong tyres from the start. all in all 11-8 is ok on this (POS) track.

had no choice but to pit again at the end, and unfortunately didn't have the pace in his last stint.. also hards held up longer than expected.

#458 joshb

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 13:56

What a f up from rbr with their strategy. Should have been fifth and cut Alonso's lead.

Yeah i was a bit annoyed that they pitted him without the required gap to Alonso- Vettel couldn't overtake Button on soft tyres, it was pushing it to ask Mark to get past Senna/Button/Alonso

#459 BCM

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 13:56

12s up the road, lapping faster than Alonso and about 12 laps to go. Why would you pit Webber? I'm at a total loss to understand what drove that decision.

Edited by BCM, 29 July 2012 - 13:56.


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#460 Callahan

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 13:58

Incredibly, Mark is still 2nd in the WDC but 40 behind Fernando with everyone on his arse now.

Edited by Callahan, 29 July 2012 - 13:59.


#461 v@sh

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 14:00

12s up the road, lapping faster than Alonso and about 12 laps to go. Why would you pit Webber? I'm at a total loss to understand what drove that decision.


Exactly, he could loose almost a second a lap and still be ahead of Alonso. He wasn't going to catch vettel even if he closed the gap down. Nothing to gain, all to lose. Where is the logic in the decision on a track where button was stuck behind senna for 20 laps even being on fresher tires. They were lucky vettel got out ahead of Alonso too.

Edited by v@sh, 29 July 2012 - 14:01.


#462 Hippo

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 14:06

Ok I have no idea what that strategy was meant to achieve. He could have been 4th or 5th without that last stop. Who would have thought yesterday, that the strategy would mess up his result like that. Weird.

#463 wonk123

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 14:14

The lap before his last pitstop he was .5 second slower than Alonso (approximately) so I understand why they pitted him. However on the new softs he had barely any more pace than Senna, which may be diff related.

#464 Alfisti

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 14:14

Third superb start in a row, wtf is all that about? An absolute SHOCKER from RBR to pit both drivers and it cost mark massively. I said at the time that the pitted marlk 3 to 5 laps too early on the second set of hards, he had alonso WELL covered there and he then was some 12 SECONDS clear with 16 laps left and they bring him in. I did see that lap was when alonso started to catch him but dear me, that's a stupid call, as stupid as I have seen inages.

#465 icecream

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 14:15

Ok I have no idea what that strategy was meant to achieve. He could have been 4th or 5th without that last stop. Who would have thought yesterday, that the strategy would mess up his result like that. Weird.


he was on softs. if he'd stayed out, its most probable they wouldnt last, in which case he might have had to do a late stop, and ended up down in ~10th

#466 wonk123

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 14:21

Third superb start in a row, wtf is all that about? An absolute SHOCKER from RBR to pit both drivers and it cost mark massively. I said at the time that the pitted marlk 3 to 5 laps too early on the second set of hards, he had alonso WELL covered there and he then was some 12 SECONDS clear with 16 laps left and they bring him in. I did see that lap was when alonso started to catch him but dear me, that's a stupid call, as stupid as I have seen inages.


I was suprised that they didn't run him longer on BOTH sets of the mediums! He was on a different strategy to everyone else,so why not take advantage of it?

#467 LukeM

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 14:27

poor tactics for Mark nothing more you can say... Red bull should have gambled and left him out on the softs and he could have got 5th. They knew it was almost impossible to pass here so they settled for 8th, lameo.

#468 steen

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 14:31

I was suprised that they didn't run him longer on BOTH sets of the mediums! He was on a different strategy to everyone else,so why not take advantage of it?

Exactly so. Running the mediums short & going early on a long stint on softs kills the undercut. Especially in Hungary. It'd be interesting to find out what their reasoning was.

#469 race addicted

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 14:45

he was on softs. if he'd stayed out, its most probable they wouldnt last, in which case he might have had to do a late stop, and ended up down in ~10th


It was very strange how they emplyed the compounds and the stint lengths. Strange how they couldn't foresse being on the options there, would be dangerously close to requiring another stop, which it did of course. ยจ
Webber should've easily finished ahead of Alonso.

#470 fatd

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 14:52

Why didn't they stretch the first 2 stints longer?? A strategy blunder from RB today I guess...

#471 BCM

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 14:57

he was on softs. if he'd stayed out, its most probable they wouldnt last, in which case he might have had to do a late stop, and ended up down in ~10th


There's no way they'd have lasted. However he was 11.5s up on lap 56 of 69 and on his last two sectors before he pitted he'd just picked up 4 tenths of a second on Alonso. I just checked the replay on the ipad F1 app. He could almost have afforded to lose a second a lap to Alonso for every remaining lap and still finished in front. He hadn't even started losing time at that point. Bizarre.

Edited by BCM, 29 July 2012 - 14:58.


#472 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 15:11

It's official, to me the strategy proves the fix is in on Webber's season.

#473 Raelene

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 15:45

It's official, to me the strategy proves the fix is in on Webber's season.



yep, seemed very very strange. I thought when they started him on mediums when everyone else was on softs they were going to try something different...but no... definately something strange.

#474 ch103

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 17:02

12s up the road, lapping faster than Alonso and about 12 laps to go. Why would you pit Webber? I'm at a total loss to understand what drove that decision.


Totally agreed. Two pit strategy errors today on Webber's side of RBR. The first pit stop, far too early. This stop, unnecessary, IMO.

On the bright side, for those who consider Lewis a realistic threat to win the WDC, then you also still must consider Webber as well. It's wide open and FA only finished 5th today.

Could have been much worse.

#475 HoldenRT

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 17:50

Unlike last race, Webber's pace was actually really good in this one..

Just retarded strategy as others have said. Really ridiculous.. number 2 driver, strategy type of stuff.

Haven't seen this stuff from Redbull in quite a while and not during this season (or at least.. up until Silverstone).

I think Redbull were more concerned with Seb and his position.. I always think this whenever this strategy stuff happens.. however.. to not even beat SENNA in a WILLIAMS.. that's utterly ridiculous. And unlike in Hockenheim, can't really fault how Mark drove today in the race. Utter joke really..

Edited by HoldenRT, 29 July 2012 - 17:50.


#476 joshb

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 18:49

Unlike last race, Webber's pace was actually really good in this one..

Just retarded strategy as others have said. Really ridiculous.. number 2 driver, strategy type of stuff.

Haven't seen this stuff from Redbull in quite a while and not during this season (or at least.. up until Silverstone).

I think Redbull were more concerned with Seb and his position.. I always think this whenever this strategy stuff happens.. however.. to not even beat SENNA in a WILLIAMS.. that's utterly ridiculous. And unlike in Hockenheim, can't really fault how Mark drove today in the race. Utter joke really..


No he ddn't do much wrong. He even had a storming first few corners.
And the RB still sucks in dirty air. How could someone who is more than capable overtaking not get Senna, on newer tyres? Seems like everytime they got close to someone, they'd lose time in the last corners and be too far back for a DRS move.

At least he now equals a record that around 2005/6 you might have thought inconcievable.
Most consecutive races without a mechanical DNF (Joint with Hamilton). I think it is 52 races now.

Edited by joshb, 29 July 2012 - 18:50.


#477 FizzyJerk

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 18:54

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/101644

Red Bull saying that Mark "had to" make 3 stops.

Make of it what you will.

#478 joshb

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 19:12

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/101644

Red Bull saying that Mark "had to" make 3 stops.

Make of it what you will.


he had to run the softs 3rd stint and I questionned at the time whether he could make it last. He was catching Seb quite quickly at one stage, but I was wondering if that spurt was to get a gap to those behind so he could pit for a 3rd time near the end.

#479 One

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 20:49

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/101644

Red Bull saying that Mark "had to" make 3 stops.

Make of it what you will.


This article says pretty much that he RBR pt wall got their brain fade moment to stop Webber three times.

Well I am not surprised about it, actually, as Red Bull and Marco want to put Vettel in front of Webber.
Silly Webber did not move to Ferrari. Very disappointing... Nice mile, well. no way...

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#480 icecream

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 22:39

This article says pretty much that he RBR pt wall got their brain fade moment to stop Webber three times.


how does the article say this?

as others have said, the mistake they made was not eeking out the stints on mediums. but hindsight 20/20 etc.

the final pitstop was the best strategy at that point, as if webber hit the cliff, he'd be losing 2-3 seconds per lap, and get eaten up. we've seen this happen a number of times this year (kimi comes to mind).

#481 krapmeister

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 22:42

Just a couple of more laps in the first stint and he would jump Alonso and the race would've been a different story. Really, no excuse for pitting him at the same time as the guys on softs - what's the point of starting on the mediums then?

And a blinding start from him as well - hell, even Riccardo had a good start for a change! Could not believe it...

#482 packapoo

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 22:45

Is Marko moonlighting as Webber's race engineer?

#483 Brother Fox

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 23:17

I couldnt understand either why they pitted him with the soft drivers at the start when he was on the hards?
Dissapointing to go from thinking he'd gain a couple of points on Alonso to loosing a few more, but thankfully Vettel and Alonso didnt score a big bag of points either.



#484 v@sh

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 23:49

how does the article say this?

as others have said, the mistake they made was not eeking out the stints on mediums. but hindsight 20/20 etc.

the final pitstop was the best strategy at that point, as if webber hit the cliff, he'd be losing 2-3 seconds per lap, and get eaten up. we've seen this happen a number of times this year (kimi comes to mind).


It was not the best strategy at that point. You are assuming that Webber would hit the cliff and on the basis of what has happened in previous races earlier in the year which by now most teams have a much better handle on the tires. Additionally:

- No one on the soft tires throughout the race hit the cliff losing 2-3 seconds a lap
- Webber had at least a gap of 10 seconds to manage the tires to the end unlike Kimi where he had a whole train of cars right behind
- Hungary is not China, you could see Button was stuck behind Senna for 20 or so laps
- Vettel was stuck behind Button despite being massively quicker
- Unlike China, the DRS was not effective at all

As others have already mentioned, two poor strategy decisions cost Webber a better result. They made mistakes in both in not making the medium stints longer and having an additional stop.

#485 icecream

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 00:29

It was not the best strategy at that point. You are assuming that Webber would hit the cliff and on the basis of what has happened in previous races earlier in the year which by now most teams have a much better handle on the tires. Additionally:

- No one on the soft tires throughout the race hit the cliff losing 2-3 seconds a lap
- Webber had at least a gap of 10 seconds to manage the tires to the end unlike Kimi where he had a whole train of cars right behind


perhaps you're right. i was certainly cringing when they brought him in with 14 odd laps to go. but webber certainly wasn't going to gain another position at that point, so the only reason to bring him in was because they thought he'd be left vulnerable on the softs.

interestingly he was only marginally faster than the guys infront in the last stint. he was super fast on his first run on the softs, so not sure what happened at the end. perhaps the diff problem, or perhaps he couldn't get heat into the tyres.

Edited by icecream, 30 July 2012 - 00:30.


#486 engel

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 00:40

or perhaps RB sans funky engine maps weren't confident they could make the tyres last 30 laps

#487 krapmeister

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 00:52

or perhaps RB sans funky engine maps weren't confident they could make the tyres last 30 laps


But hadn't they run without those funky engine maps everywhere else before Hockenheim?

#488 engel

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 00:57

But hadn't they run without those funky engine maps everywhere else before Hockenheim?


rumor is that the funky maps have been what actually solved the infamous RB rear end instability problem from early season, before they balanced the aero, and that they were in play since Bahrain. But that's beside the point, if the car loses a map that helps it conserve rear tyres in a rear tyre limited circuit then they pay the price. Apparently RB paid a higher price on the primes, they had considerably higher heat deg than those around them and trying to solve that through mechanical setup didn't really work.

#489 krapmeister

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 01:01

rumor is that the funky maps have been what actually solved the infamous RB rear end instability problem from early season, before they balanced the aero, and that they were in play since Bahrain. But that's beside the point, if the car loses a map that helps it conserve rear tyres in a rear tyre limited circuit then they pay the price. Apparently RB paid a higher price on the primes, they had considerably higher heat deg than those around them and trying to solve that through mechanical setup didn't really work.


Ok, it's just that I thought that Jo Bauer had specifically stated that the engine map and it's characteristics that they referred to the stewards hadn't been seen in any race prior to Germany. But yeah, if that particular map was to have helped with tyre wear then not having it obviously hurt them this weekend...

#490 Thunderlips

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 01:32

Internally, nothing has changed at RBR since season 2009 -- Marko will stop at nothing to keep Webber at bay and ensure Vettel has clear passage to defend his crown. Webber's gearbox "change" in Germany was the price he had to pay for his win in Great Britain, and Vettel's German GP grid penalty -- and Webber's probable fifth place in Hungary -- meant Webber had to be pitted unnecessarily in the closing stages of yesterday's race to ensure his points haul was minimised.

I have no doubt Webber went against Briatore's advice (if it was ever sought) and signed on for another year of torment at RBR. Either Webber is an eternal optimist or a sadist. It's one or the other.

Edited by Thunderlips, 30 July 2012 - 01:34.


#491 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 01:46

I'm sure i'm not the only one who calls complete BS on Horner's 'Mark had to stop' explanation. :rolleyes:

I'd like to have seen some evidence on live timing frankly, and with 14 laps to go it wasnt there. If anything, Mark was doing no worse than maintaining the gap. How dropping him back into the pack with a diff problem was going to be good for Mark's overall strategy beggars belief.

I'm so annoyed at Red Bull Racing right now, and Mark for signing that extension. Surely 'fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me'.


He was catching Seb quite quickly at one stage...


hence the stop. :drunk:

Edited by NotSoSilentBob, 30 July 2012 - 01:53.


#492 icecream

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 01:53

anyone who thinks red bull are in a position this year to decide which points they will and will not take is crazy.

#493 smoothcrim

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 02:07

Look at what happened to Grosjeans tyres at the end of the race,and i believe his were fresher than Webbers and his car is easier on the tyres.

If webber had of stayed out there without pitting a third time he would of fallen of the cliff and finished out of the points.Even in the first stint everyone would of undercut him and he would of ended up nowhere.

Hock he was unlucky to receive a gearbox penalty,here he stuffed his qualy lap and thats where the problem started.His team gave him a very good strat and it almost worked but his tyres were almost shot when he pitted for the last time.Some of u should watch the live timing,he got out to 12 seconds infront of Alonso,needed 17 but before he pitted Alonso started pulling back time to the tune of .5 a lap.

RBR dont want Webber finishing in 8th every race,get real.You online strategists with no information except for hindsight are a laugh cause even with hindsight u get it wrong

Edited by smoothcrim, 30 July 2012 - 02:11.


#494 Zippel

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 02:29

Just before his 1st stop, didn't Mark's crew ask him over the radio if he wanted to continue with meds and he said yes? If so, Mark had a role to play in his ultimately having to stop 3 times. If he had gone with softs in his first stop, he would have had better options in the latter end of the race.

#495 v@sh

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 03:32

Look at what happened to Grosjeans tyres at the end of the race,and i believe his were fresher than Webbers and his car is easier on the tyres.

If webber had of stayed out there without pitting a third time he would of fallen of the cliff and finished out of the points.Even in the first stint everyone would of undercut him and he would of ended up nowhere.

Hock he was unlucky to receive a gearbox penalty,here he stuffed his qualy lap and thats where the problem started.His team gave him a very good strat and it almost worked but his tyres were almost shot when he pitted for the last time.Some of u should watch the live timing,he got out to 12 seconds infront of Alonso,needed 17 but before he pitted Alonso started pulling back time to the tune of .5 a lap.

RBR dont want Webber finishing in 8th every race,get real.You online strategists with no information except for hindsight are a laugh cause even with hindsight u get it wrong


I did watch the live timing buddy. Where is the evidence that he would have fallen off a cliff when no one else had during the entire other than Perez? All the other evidence had shown that it was a dumb strategy to pit him again.

You say .5 of a lap, which is not enough to catch + Alonso having to pass Webber. Look at the Button/Senna and Vettel/Button during the race. Both times, the car behind was much quicker, more than 0.5 seconds and still couldn't pass. Vettel was lucky that Button went into the pits.

What is the harm in letting Webber continue preserving his tires in 5th place while 11 seconds ahead of Alonso, his tires hadn't fallen off a cliff and his laptimes were fine. As soon as his times starting falling off, then you could have pitted him.

Mercedes did the same mistake last week at Hockenheim which they predicted that the hard compound was going to fall off a cliff at a certain time yet there was no real evidence in the race that it was going to occur. Rosberg lost out and Schumacher was lucky.

#496 gowebber

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 04:23

I did watch the live timing buddy. Where is the evidence that he would have fallen off a cliff when no one else had during the entire other than Perez? All the other evidence had shown that it was a dumb strategy to pit him again.

You say .5 of a lap, which is not enough to catch + Alonso having to pass Webber. Look at the Button/Senna and Vettel/Button during the race. Both times, the car behind was much quicker, more than 0.5 seconds and still couldn't pass. Vettel was lucky that Button went into the pits.

What is the harm in letting Webber continue preserving his tires in 5th place while 11 seconds ahead of Alonso, his tires hadn't fallen off a cliff and his laptimes were fine. As soon as his times starting falling off, then you could have pitted him.

Mercedes did the same mistake last week at Hockenheim which they predicted that the hard compound was going to fall off a cliff at a certain time yet there was no real evidence in the race that it was going to occur. Rosberg lost out and Schumacher was lucky.


Yeah I agree they should have left him out and tried to eek out the tyre life till the end given he was 11secs up on Alonso. Even as you said stay out and see how it is panning out and then react, not jump the gun when everything is going ok. Webber is great at defending and that track is bloody hard to pass so theres a fair chance he could have lasted till the end. The tyre cliff issue didn't really seem to be a problem at Hungary compared to what we have seen and RBR should have realised that there was not alot of passing going on so it was a big ask for Mark to try and pass 3 or 4 cars in the 10 or so laps left and what just to get back into 5th at best where he already was anyway with an 11sec lead before he pitted. Strategy fail for RBR

Going to be a long wait now, but Mark is good at Spa and Monza so hopefully he can qually well and beat Alonso. On the plus side that was a bonzai start from Mark for once! Loved it. Anyone got a link to Marks onboard from the start at Hungary??

Edited by gowebber, 30 July 2012 - 04:27.


#497 smoothcrim

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 05:44

I did watch the live timing buddy. Where is the evidence that he would have fallen off a cliff when no one else had during the entire other than Perez? All the other evidence had shown that it was a dumb strategy to pit him again.

You say .5 of a lap, which is not enough to catch + Alonso having to pass Webber. Look at the Button/Senna and Vettel/Button during the race. Both times, the car behind was much quicker, more than 0.5 seconds and still couldn't pass. Vettel was lucky that Button went into the pits.

What is the harm in letting Webber continue preserving his tires in 5th place while 11 seconds ahead of Alonso, his tires hadn't fallen off a cliff and his laptimes were fine. As soon as his times starting falling off, then you could have pitted him.

Mercedes did the same mistake last week at Hockenheim which they predicted that the hard compound was going to fall off a cliff at a certain time yet there was no real evidence in the race that it was going to occur. Rosberg lost out and Schumacher was lucky.



Grojean fell of the cliff thats the evidence.Vettel caught him at 2-3 seconds a lap,his front left was screwed and he was all over the track.1 more lap and Vettel was past him.

Webbers tyres were already going when he pitted,no way they would of lasted another 14 laps,he and grojean both pitted on lap 39 and that lotus is much kinder on its tyres.

If he hadnt of pitted everyone would be lambasting redbull for not doing a 3 stopper like vettel and calling conspiracy.





#498 wonk123

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 05:47

I don't think there was any conspiracy. While I disagreed with their strategy at the time, I was also wondering if Mark had stayed out longer in the first stint, whether the undercut would have worked against him.

As for the last stop, I think RBR underestimated how much the diff was hurting his pace, if he had of been 2 seconds a lap quicker like Seb was on the new softs, then I think he would have easily gotten past Senna and Button, maybe even Alonso as well. The downside if they fell off the cliff was 0 points.

#499 sanjiro

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 06:29

little to see here.
2013 contract signed, move allong

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#500 Brother Fox

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 06:38

Webbers tyres were already going when he pitted...

What are you basing that on?