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Mark Webber - Part II


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#501 smoothcrim

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 07:51

he went from being .5 faster than alonso to being .5 slower,he would of struggled badly in the later stages.better 4 points that nothing.



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#502 Alarcon

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 08:39

What are you basing that on?


Considering he was on softs, his laps were not so brilliant and having the "Canada experience"... RB though Alonso would made one more stop.

It was nothing wrong. Mark ruined his race qualifiying 11th not able to pass Q2, same as Vettel ruined his race making a bad move over Grosjean. Imo RB had no fault here.



#503 Alarcon

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 08:45

Internally, nothing has changed at RBR since season 2009 -- Marko will stop at nothing to keep Webber at bay and ensure Vettel has clear passage to defend his crown. Webber's gearbox "change" in Germany was the price he had to pay for his win in Great Britain, and Vettel's German GP grid penalty -- and Webber's probable fifth place in Hungary -- meant Webber had to be pitted unnecessarily in the closing stages of yesterday's race to ensure his points haul was minimised.

I have no doubt Webber went against Briatore's advice (if it was ever sought) and signed on for another year of torment at RBR. Either Webber is an eternal optimist or a sadist. It's one or the other.


You are right, nothing has changed. Seb beat again Mark on qualy and Marko "damaged" the car of Webber (he had also the "strange engine mapping" on his car or was just in Seb´s car? ) just to destroy Webber who was unable to reach Q3 on his flying lap...

:drunk:

Or Webber is an eternal optimist, or a sadist... or maybe is "silly" because he´s not agree about the clever "conspiracy theory" and said NO to Ferrari and YES to the team ruins his life.

:drunk:

Another question at the "level" of those conspiracy stats: "what about the strange engine mapping was the "key" of Webber´s shape this season"? :drunk:

Edited by Alarcon, 30 July 2012 - 08:48.


#504 v@sh

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 08:55

he went from being .5 faster than alonso to being .5 slower,he would of struggled badly in the later stages.better 4 points that nothing.


Alonso Webber
1:26.437 1:26.786 -0.349 +12.011 31
1:26.439 1:26.890 -0.451 +11.560 32

So you are basing Webber falling off a cliff from two laps even when he was faster the previous 7 laps where he extended his lead over Alonso from 8.5 seconds to 11.5 seconds. This is with 14 laps to go. That meant Alonso needed to catch Webber at least 8 tenths for each lap just to catch up let alone when he hits Webber's dirty air and also having to overtake.

Even once Webber put on new boots, his laps times were pretty much on par with Alonso's and what he was managing before his pit stop.

All Red Bull had to do is leave Webber out for 3-4 extra laps to see if there was an even bigger drop-off and then decide then. When you look at Button who had a car up to a second faster than Senna in the race yet when he was behind Senna he was stuck there. Also at that point in the race you also should take into account that the track has rubbered in more and they have got rid of most of their fuel which has a lesser impact on tire wear than at the start of the race.

Considering he was on softs, his laps were not so brilliant and having the "Canada experience"... RB though Alonso would made one more stop.


We know you're not a big fan of Webber but at least make an effort in some of your poor arguments. Stop sprouting rubbish without actually backing it up. Considering he was on softs, his laps were not so brilliant in that:

a) he increased his lead over Alonso from 8.5 seconds to 11.5 seconds before his final pit stop
b) decreased his gap over Vettel from 14.2 seconds to 6.5 seconds before his final pit stop

Horner also says in his explanation for Webber having to pit again, quote "So to put him into fresh air, and really make that new set of tyres work, would be the best chance for him. Unfortunately on lap 45 we had a differential issue that was not behaving quite as well as we liked, and that cost him a bit of time." and "Red Bull team principal Christian Horner said his team had no option but to put Mark Webber on to a three-stop strategy, because a differential problem with the car meant his tyre wear increased dramatically".

Which is BS as he gained time on both Vettel and Alonso in those ten laps when he had a differential issue and the time he had his final stop.

Edited by v@sh, 30 July 2012 - 09:07.


#505 engel

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:00

All Red Bull had to do is leave Webber out for 3-4 extra laps to see if there was an even bigger drop-off and then decide then.


you can't do that in Hungary, load your pitstops that awkwardly, it's not Canada. If your primes can't do 30 laps they can't do 30 laps. It's better to do 20 and then 10 on options than to do 25 (2 of which completely off the pace) then try to recover that with 5 laps on options, the time loss is much less. Webber was unlucky, he had the diff issue and could use the tyre advantage.

#506 goingthedistance

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:09

The diff failure was crucial, excerbating tyre wear and dropping his lap times by 0.3-0.5 seconds a lap.

Rather than attacking RBR's strategy (admittedly rarely a strength of RBR, especially with Mark) I'd like to know how a top team can persistently have so many mechanical issues, again especially that befall Mark. It feels like he's had more races with a fault than without this year, be it faulty front wings, engine hesitations, gearbox failures, KERS issues, DRS failures in quali, and now a differential failure.

#507 Alarcon

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:11

Alonso Webber
1:26.437 1:26.786 -0.349 +12.011 31
1:26.439 1:26.890 -0.451 +11.560 32

So you are basing Webber falling off a cliff from two laps even when he was faster the previous 7 laps where he extended his lead over Alonso from 8.5 seconds to 11.5 seconds. This is with 14 laps to go. That meant Alonso needed to catch Webber at least 8 tenths for each lap just to catch up let alone when he hits Webber's dirty air and also having to overtake.

Even once Webber put on new boots, his laps times were pretty much on par with Alonso's and what he was managing before his pit stop.

All Red Bull had to do is leave Webber out for 3-4 extra laps to see if there was an even bigger drop-off and then decide then. When you look at Button who had a car up to a second faster than Senna in the race yet when he was behind Senna he was stuck there. Also at that point in the race you also should take into account that the track has rubbered in more and they have got rid of most of their fuel which has a lesser impact on tire wear than at the start of the race.



We know you're not a big fan of Webber but at least make an effort in some of your poor arguments. Stop sprouting rubbish without actually backing it up. Considering he was on softs, his laps were not so brilliant in that:

a) he increased his lead over Alonso from 8.5 seconds to 11.5 seconds before his final pit stop
b) decreased his gap over Vettel from 14.2 seconds to 6.5 seconds before his final pit stop

Horner also says in his explanation for Webber having to pit again, quote "So to put him into fresh air, and really make that new set of tyres work, would be the best chance for him. Unfortunately on lap 45 we had a differential issue that was not behaving quite as well as we liked, and that cost him a bit of time." and "Red Bull team principal Christian Horner said his team had no option but to put Mark Webber on to a three-stop strategy, because a differential problem with the car meant his tyre wear increased dramatically".

Which is BS as he gained time on both Vettel and Alonso in those ten laps when he had a differential issue and the time he had his final stop.



About the b) Webber´s last times against Vettel were pretty much similar while Seb was on med and Mark on softs. 14 more laps with softs with the pace decreasing...

I´m not a MW fan, that´s true, but I consider him a top driver, very fast and consistent and that´s true too. However I don´t even take serious all the conspiracy theory about. That´s all.

Edited by Alarcon, 30 July 2012 - 09:13.


#508 flyer121

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:25

I see that the conspiracy theorists are out again ..
.. let me tell you this - judging by the competition , they do not have the luxury to play the lil tricks !

Webber is in a much better position to challenge NAndo and I would nt be surprised if they asked Seb to move over towards the end of the season .
I d be pissed if Vettel still has a chance but that is a possibility and grudgingly I d agree..

RB is no longer the top 3 so its hook or crook for them now!

#509 v@sh

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:29

you can't do that in Hungary, load your pitstops that awkwardly, it's not Canada. If your primes can't do 30 laps they can't do 30 laps. It's better to do 20 and then 10 on options than to do 25 (2 of which completely off the pace) then try to recover that with 5 laps on options, the time loss is much less. Webber was unlucky, he had the diff issue and could use the tyre advantage.


Perhaps generally that may be right way to go about it but the circumstances were different IMO as it gave RBR the option to possibly hold onto fifth place even if it meant possibly dropping down to 9th rather than an automatic 8th. They should have gone by how the race had panned out for other drivers where everyone had problems overtaking despite having a quicker car so there was no tire advantage to use. One second quicker does not guarantee you an easy pass and Webber had to pass three others in the space of 13/14 laps which doesn't give much time and that is a lot of hope that your competitors tires would drop off that much. I wouldn't have a problem had it been Canada as you can actually overtake there and there was a significant drop off. RBR:

a) you have to chance to remain in 5th position if you preserve the tires with a handy lead in front of Alonso
b) even if you stay out 3/4 laps and you drop 2 seconds then he still has a big enough gap to Massa so would have stayed in the same position anyway as the same when he pitted on lap 55 but it gives RBR the option of scoring points than salvaging a lousy 8th or 9th (worse case scenario behind Massa)

The fact that RBR said they were hoping the tires of competitors would hit the cliff is piss poor strategy to me when the entire race I don't recall anyone hitting the cliff. Same error Mercedes made at Hockeheim.

About the b) Webber´s last times against Vettel were pretty much similar while Seb was on med and Mark on softs. 14 more laps with softs with the pace decreasing...


True regarding the last two laps before Webber pitted but Webber wasn't racing Seb as Seb was easily in front. It was just in your response to his soft lap times weren't that great which they were fine IMO. As for the conspiracy theories, perhaps in 2010 (2011 Webber had no hope so was not a problem) whereas this year it is fine. They have learnt from 2010.

Also if Christian Horner was so worried about Alonso catching Webber at the end, in the situation Alonso did catch and pass Webber, 6th is still better than finishing 8th.

Edited by v@sh, 30 July 2012 - 09:37.


#510 engel

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:47

Perhaps generally that may be right way to go about it but the circumstances were different IMO as it gave RBR the option to possibly hold onto fifth place even if it meant possibly dropping down to 9th rather than an automatic 8th. They should have gone by how the race had panned out for other drivers where everyone had problems overtaking despite having a quicker car so there was no tire advantage to use. One second quicker does not guarantee you an easy pass and Webber had to pass three others in the space of 13/14 laps which doesn't give much time and that is a lot of hope that your competitors tires would drop off that much. I wouldn't have a problem had it been Canada as you can actually overtake there and there was a significant drop off. RBR:

a) you have to chance to remain in 5th position if you preserve the tires with a handy lead in front of Alonso
b) even if you stay out 3/4 laps and you drop 2 seconds then he still has a big enough gap to Massa so would have stayed in the same position anyway as the same when he pitted on lap 55 but it gives RBR the option of scoring points than salvaging a lousy 8th or 9th (worse case scenario behind Massa)

The fact that RBR said they were hoping the tires of competitors would hit the cliff is piss poor strategy to me when the entire race I don't recall anyone hitting the cliff. Same error Mercedes made at Hockeheim.


The pace potential wasn't 1 second per lap, Vettel was doing low 24s while everybody else was doing 26s-27s. That's enough pace to overtake, even in Hungary (Alonso-Perez). Beyond that you are theorizing with no access to data. Heat wear isn't going to show up on the timing screens, the way it will show up is at some point the whole thing will go boom and you will lose 3-4-5 seconds a lap, the infamous cliff. Red Bull's data suggested they couldn't two stop the race. None of their drivers did more than 20 laps on either primes or options that's why both cars three stopped.

#511 LukeM

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 10:08

Another thing that seemed like something the strategists at RBR missed was surely it would have been smarter for Mark to do a short middle stint on the softs, get them out of the way, and than do an early pit stop and do the same undercut he did on Alonso but having the right tire to finish the race off on. Conspiracy or not, since Mark resigned hes had nothing but awful luck and awful tactics at both races.

#512 wonk123

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 10:15

Another thing that seemed like something the strategists at RBR missed was surely it would have been smarter for Mark to do a short middle stint on the softs, get them out of the way, and than do an early pit stop and do the same undercut he did on Alonso but having the right tire to finish the race off on. Conspiracy or not, since Mark resigned hes had nothing but awful luck and awful tactics at both races.



It's been a crap couple of weeks for Mark, but he is still second in the WDC


#513 BCM

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:11

he went from being .5 faster than alonso to being .5 slower,he would of struggled badly in the later stages.better 4 points that nothing.


He was stuck behind Vergne for those two laps. What rbr were seeing weren't his tyres going off, it was actually a warning of what would happen when they stuck him behind senna by pitting him. His pace was being dictated by the car in front. On his in lap he managed to pick up half a second in two sectors, putting him back up to a 12s gap.

Edited by BCM, 30 July 2012 - 11:13.


#514 Trust

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:19

As soon as he signed contract, he is nowhere.

#515 smoothcrim

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 15:11

He was stuck behind Vergne for those two laps. What rbr were seeing weren't his tyres going off, it was actually a warning of what would happen when they stuck him behind senna by pitting him. His pace was being dictated by the car in front. On his in lap he managed to pick up half a second in two sectors, putting him back up to a 12s gap.



Stuck behind vergne for 2 laps?surely vergne got a drive through,or even sacked from tororoso?



#516 goingthedistance

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 18:13

Stuck behind vergne for 2 laps?surely vergne got a drive through,or even sacked from tororoso?


I saw this on the driver tracker and was pretty surprised. Hurt Mark a bit. He really was stuck behind him for several laps.

#517 DILLIGAF

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 12:56

These gearbox penalties aren't helping Webbo's championship chances at all. ):

#518 Disgrace

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 13:24

Vettel couldn't get into Q3, and Webber is still behind. Shame.

#519 Ian G

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 00:32

Mark's having a bad run of luck thats for sure,still should be a good race with so many proven winners back in the pack,anything can happen and probaly will up front with full fuel loads affecting some cars/drivers more than others.

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#520 Ian G

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 04:33

Mark's upbeat and looking Fwd. to the race according to an Oz. Journo. that has spoken to him,i guess having Alonso alongside will be a carrot for a good result.

#521 Disgrace

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 14:15

So what was that? :well:

#522 KavB

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 15:08

Was his retirement the result of his spin?

#523 scheivlak

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 16:25

Mark Webber - DNF: "Towards the end of the race, I had no rear tyres left and I was pushing reasonably hard. Nico (Rosberg) was coming on his fresh two-stop tyres, so I had to keep pushing and staying on it – for the sake of getting a couple of points, maybe I shouldn't have pushed as hard, but I was trying to stay on it. The rear tyres were completely finished, so I dropped it out of the Ascari chicane; I managed to keep it off the wall, but then the tyres were so heavily flat-spotted, I was worried about damaging the car. We do 330 km/h round here, I couldn't see the track, so we decided to retire."

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/102413

#524 goldenboy

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 16:32

Strange drop off in pace from mark, looked good on in practice compared to vettel, but in the race seemingly always half a second off him. Race well and truly to vettel.


"felipe webber' :lol: haha poor massa. Maybe we call his average drives monza mark instead from now on...

#525 race addicted

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 20:51

Feel sorry for Webber today, pushing as hard as he could and then got over the edge.... He really, really, really needs a podium finish in Singapore, to get the feeling that he's fighting for the title back! The Red Bull should be very good on atleast five out of the seven remaining tracks, so he needs to pull the max from himself.


#526 gm914

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 20:56

Yeh but Webbo hates Singapore.

#527 race addicted

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 21:04

If memory serves he's finished 29 seconds behind Vettel there in both '10 and '11, but the RB8 is a car he performs better in, so he just needs to white-knuckle drive in two weeks! He simply has to!

#528 Ian G

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 00:11

Yeh but Webbo hates Singapore.


Yeah,one of his early(2 or 3 years ago) quotes was he was just glad to "finish the race & return the car to the guys without hitting something",i think he has adapted to the circuit since then though.
Poor race from Mark & poor strategy,yet again, from the Team,roll on Singapore.

#529 ch103

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 00:58

there is no need to panic at this point because so many things can still happen in the WDC race. The problem is we really have no reason to celebrate either.



#530 Alfisti

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 02:18

Yeah,one of his early(2 or 3 years ago) quotes was he was just glad to "finish the race & return the car to the guys without hitting something",i think he has adapted to the circuit since then though.
Poor race from Mark & poor strategy,yet again, from the Team,roll on Singapore.


Strategy was fine, if he two stopped he'd have finished 10th or so.

#531 Ian G

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 04:25

Strategy was fine, if he two stopped he'd have finished 10th or so.


Sorry,can't agree,from 11th he should have started on the Prime and gone as far as possible into the race giving the team the option of a 1 or 2 stopper.On the Option Tyre he pitted too early,he could have got another 4 or 5+ laps at reasonable times.His rears went off with 10 laps to go and was easy meat for the Mercs.

At least his alternator didn't pack it in,interesting to see why its only Seb's car having the problem,perhaps rumours the two cars are using KERS in different stages of the development may be true and explain why Seb seems to get a slightly stronger surge when attempting a pass.

Edited by Ian G, 10 September 2012 - 04:26.


#532 race addicted

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 08:21

Has Webber got a new seating position?? Seems to me he's lower in the car suddenly.

#533 Alarcon

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:17

Has Webber got a new seating position?? Seems to me he's lower in the car suddenly.



In any case he always will be lower than Seb, who prefers to seat much higher than him.

#534 race addicted

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:19

:lol:

#535 Obi Offiah

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:21

And there I was thinking Mark will be able to challenge Seb through to seasons end, now how silly was I.

#536 smoothcrim

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:59

Webbers not looking to far of the pace,Vettel is going to be in a league of his own though by the looks of it.

#537 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:10

Webber's completely dropped his bundle.

He should have known better, and gone to Ferrari. At least if he'd signed a Ferrari deal the drop-off would have been expected.

I'd frankly rather see Danny Ric in the RB8 these days. The way Channel 10 are using Webber's name in their F1 promos borders on the cringeworthy at the moment.

#538 HoldenRT

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 16:10

Ever since Webber won the British GP and resigned with Redbull he's been shithouse. :mad: Fair enough.. gearbox penalties.. but still.. shithouse......

#539 Obi Offiah

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 16:18

Ever since Webber won the British GP and resigned with Redbull he's been shithouse. :mad: Fair enough.. gearbox penalties.. but still.. shithouse......

And it's been very frustrating to watch. I've been waiting, hoping for him and RBR on his behalf to reignite his season and I'm still waiting. :confused:

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#540 smoothcrim

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 16:38

yea he looks crap,tentative.......hard being a webber fan.



#541 race addicted

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 17:17

It's been hugely disappointing to see how things have gone since Silverstone!
Now though, it's like he no longer believes he has a chance to win the championship.

#542 bourbon

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 23:57

Webber's completely dropped his bundle.

He should have known better, and gone to Ferrari. At least if he'd signed a Ferrari deal the drop-off would have been expected.

I'd frankly rather see Danny Ric in the RB8 these days. The way Channel 10 are using Webber's name in their F1 promos borders on the cringeworthy at the moment.


That is pretty harsh. Neither RB driver is having a great season - because the RB8 is less than stellar and it is always Car + Driver. So I wouldn't be too harsh on Mark. He is capable as he ever was, as we see in moments when the car is drivable.

The contention that Mark would be better off being "Massified" at Ferrari is a bit much, imo. When he mentioned that he turned down that offer, my respect for him shot way up.

#543 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 02:23

It's been hugely disappointing to see how things have gone since Silverstone!
Now though, it's like he no longer believes he has a chance to win the championship.

It is a very large gap in qually here. Both Button and Webber well outclassed by their team-mates Q3 speed, of course not by lack of trying... however Senna is also trying and hanging it off the walls on maximum attack, but maximum effort for minimum result is no excuse for a plain old talent deficiency!

The RBR looks quite hard to drive in either driver's hands, it does not seem terribly well balanced here. Obviously Seb is better suited to these slow speed corners, and is always better on this type of technical slow speed track.

I suppose Webbo could not predict that Red Bull's qually ride hide adjuster would be banned and also their engine mapping tricks would be banned when he re-signed with them.

#544 Ian G

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 05:32

The RBR looks quite hard to drive in either driver's hands, it does not seem terribly well balanced here. Obviously Seb is better suited to these slow speed corners, and is always better on this type of technical slow speed track.


Yeah,i agree,quite surprising,nowhere near as smooth as in previous years,Mark in particular was very messy in trying to wring a time out of the car in Qualy.He's still got a good chance of a Podium if he gets a good start and Horner uses the safety cars for both drivers benefit instead of just Seb.

#545 Brother Fox

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 08:34

I don't think I'd like to be any closer to Hamilton/Maldonado through those first few corners than he is :)

#546 F1ultimate

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:16

Mark is hilarious. And I am all for discipline.

http://planetf1.com/...ng-for-Grosjean

#547 smoothcrim

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 11:12

ahaha,nice one Webber.



#548 LukeM

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:01

another complete **** up on the RBR strategy wall for Mark. Why on earth did they pit him at the second safety car??? At least leave him out so he can create a gap and than pit him OR leave him out, look at massa his supersofts held up.... morons

#549 icecream

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:15

another complete **** up on the RBR strategy wall for Mark. Why on earth did they pit him at the second safety car??? At least leave him out so he can create a gap and than pit him OR leave him out, look at massa his supersofts held up.... morons


yeah, no idea. he was running 5th, with a reasonably fresh set of tyres, so they drop him to 15th, for some slightly fresher tyres. and this considering the race wasn't going to run to distance.

doesn't add up to me.

#550 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:26

Felipe Webber part VI

He was screwed by the team a bit but he was pathetic again.