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Mark Webber - Part II


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#551 Alarcon

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:28

Well it´s easy now to say Mark Webber is rubbish, but he has been as good as the car is and he´s one of the fastest drivers out there.

Today his race was penlised by his Q3. That´s all. Hope he will be strong again at Suzuka.

:up:

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#552 sosidge

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:54

yeah, no idea. he was running 5th, with a reasonably fresh set of tyres, so they drop him to 15th, for some slightly fresher tyres. and this considering the race wasn't going to run to distance.

doesn't add up to me.


He was on the SS and would have needed to stop again anyway, so they stopped him under SC rather than "green". The second SC probably saved Webber's race.

Webber needs to be fighting the team to get results. Since he got his new contract, he's lost his fight, and he's slow. I don't know why they have kept him on for the last couple of seasons, considering all the friction he causes. Perhaps he knows too much... keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer...

#553 LukeM

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:14

He was on the SS and would have needed to stop again anyway, so they stopped him under SC rather than "green". The second SC probably saved Webber's race.

Webber needs to be fighting the team to get results. Since he got his new contract, he's lost his fight, and he's slow. I don't know why they have kept him on for the last couple of seasons, considering all the friction he causes. Perhaps he knows too much... keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer...


actually Massa had OLDER supersofts and they lasted the distance and he was in 12th or something at the second safety car. Mark was 5th and probably would have finished there if they kept him out

#554 sosidge

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 16:01

actually Massa had OLDER supersofts and they lasted the distance and he was in 12th or something at the second safety car. Mark was 5th and probably would have finished there if they kept him out


Massa pitted for his SS during the first SC, Webber had already pitted for his first set of SS before the first SC - Webber's tyres were older at the point the second SC came out, and it was clear that Red Bull had put him on a 3-stopper. Webber is usually harder on the tyres than Vettel, so no surprise at that strategy.

#555 goldenboy

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 16:09

Massa pitted for his SS during the first SC, Webber had already pitted for his first set of SS before the first SC - Webber's tyres were older at the point the second SC came out, and it was clear that Red Bull had put him on a 3-stopper. Webber is usually harder on the tyres than Vettel, so no surprise at that strategy.

maybe even as much as 5 laps before the first SC (web pit) so doubt he would have been able to stay on them. Just unlucky the SC came out when it did, and along with the 2nd sc allowing the guys ahead to nurse their tyres enough to not need to stop again.

#556 HoldenRT

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 16:21

Ever since Webber has resigned contract.. he's hopeless. :cry:

I never had any hope for a solid result because in every aspect of this weekend.. he was WELL behind Vettel.. practice, quali, race pace.. strategy.. all of it. Hopeless.



#557 KavB

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 16:54

His championship has to be over now. What a shame, his first half of the season was great, but what's gone wrong since..?

#558 race addicted

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 17:13

Can't believe Webber suffered kers-trouble again!! And that strategy....! He's been off colour this weekend, but his team has as well.
That penalty is hard to understand.

Edited by race addicted, 23 September 2012 - 17:25.


#559 Mandzipop

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 17:18

Mark has a 20 second grid penalty.

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#560 sosidge

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 17:23

Mark has a 20 second grid penalty.


For the non-incident with Kobayashi? That seems incredibly harsh.

#561 OO7

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 17:26

For the non-incident with Kobayashi? That seems incredibly harsh.

He overtook/completed an overtake outside the track boundary, having said that he was pushed off circuit, but I guess your still expected to yield the position in such a situation.

#562 superuser

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 17:56

So Mark had the same BS penalty as Vettel in Germany? It seems to me that FIA is really harsh to RB drivers lately. Almost as they want them to lose the WCC and WDC

#563 sosidge

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 18:03

So Mark had the same BS penalty as Vettel in Germany? It seems to me that FIA is really harsh to RB drivers lately. Almost as they want them to lose the WCC and WDC


Looks like, doesn't it?

In both cases the driver had completed the move already, but chose to run off the race track to avoid contact with the other car.

It seems the FIA would prefer the drivers crashing into each other in order to obey a mis-applied rule.

If Webber had stayed on the track at the exit, we would have had two cars in the barriers, and it would have been KKs fault. Same with Vettel & Button. But instead, you get two finishers and a penalty for the driver who was ahead. Madness.

#564 goldenboy

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 18:28

Can't believe Webber suffered kers-trouble again!! And that strategy....! He's been off colour this weekend, but his team has as well.
That penalty is hard to understand.

what was the kers problem? how bad?

#565 depailler on tyrrell p34

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 18:50

massa cut the corner and no penalty...the fia it's always the same
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#566 race addicted

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 18:53

what was the kers problem? how bad?


Don't know exactly but when his engineer says -around the time he was battling back after his last pitstop - "ok, you can use KERS for one lap", that pretty clearly suggests there was a problem and that he likely hadn't been able to use it much in the race.

Edited by race addicted, 23 September 2012 - 18:53.


#567 Dauemannen

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 19:51

I just read about Webber's penalty an thought it incredibly harsh. I remember when I first saw there was an investigation, my immediate reaction was it was not worth investigating, but if anything Kobayashi would get a penalty for forcing Webber off the track, like Vettel did in Monza. After re-watching several times I have the same impression. There was less than a wheel's width between the two, and Kobayashi was right at the line. I took the liberty of making a screenshot. Posted Image

If Webber had not left the track he would clearly have crashed with Kobayashi, and he was also marginally ahead both before leaving and after rejoining, with the inside line for the next corner, so he didn't gain much of an advantage. Webber clearly did nothing wrong and if anyone should be penalised it should be Kobayashi. And I don't think he should be penalised either, even though he should by the same token Vettel got penalised in Monza.

With this and Vettel's penalties in Germany and Italy in mind, it looks like whenever the rules about forcing someone off the track, and gaining an advantage by leaving it contradict eachother, you should always penalise the Red Bull, no matter who is in the wrong. Pretty pathetic, really.

#568 joshb

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 20:24

Harsh penalty. I thought he had his left wheels on the kerb and thought it was legal.
I thought it would stand

#569 Jon83

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 20:49

I just read about Webber's penalty an thought it incredibly harsh. I remember when I first saw there was an investigation, my immediate reaction was it was not worth investigating, but if anything Kobayashi would get a penalty for forcing Webber off the track, like Vettel did in Monza. After re-watching several times I have the same impression. There was less than a wheel's width between the two, and Kobayashi was right at the line. I took the liberty of making a screenshot. Posted Image

If Webber had not left the track he would clearly have crashed with Kobayashi, and he was also marginally ahead both before leaving and after rejoining, with the inside line for the next corner, so he didn't gain much of an advantage. Webber clearly did nothing wrong and if anyone should be penalised it should be Kobayashi. And I don't think he should be penalised either, even though he should by the same token Vettel got penalised in Monza.

With this and Vettel's penalties in Germany and Italy in mind, it looks like whenever the rules about forcing someone off the track, and gaining an advantage by leaving it contradict eachother, you should always penalise the Red Bull, no matter who is in the wrong. Pretty pathetic, really.


So should Button have been penalised in Germany and Alonso in Italy?

Vettel was penalised because on both occasions, he was in the wrong. You sound a little paranoid. With regards to pushing people off the track, some might argue that Vettel did exactly that to Button at Suzuka last year.

#570 g1n

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 21:13

So should Button have been penalised in Germany and Alonso in Italy?

Vettel was penalised because on both occasions, he was in the wrong. You sound a little paranoid. With regards to pushing people off the track, some might argue that Vettel did exactly that to Button at Suzuka last year.


Fair penalty, the only bad thing about these, is that it shouldn't be left until after the race, the team should be notified that their driver should let the guy through or face the penalty. This way at least, the offending person has a chance to make a proper pass later on.

Stewards should really have a priority system of some sorts, not sure what criteria to use though :-/

Edited by g1n, 23 September 2012 - 21:15.


#571 icecream

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 21:29

on the pitstop decision, surely he'd be better to stay out and make use of his tyres, wait till the field is spread out (in 10 laps or so), then do the stop. this way he wouldn't drop so far back, and there'd be a much greater differential in the tyre wear when he comes back out.

not sure the mad dash to pitstop on safety car is useful if nearly nobody else is doing the same (and the field is packed up).

as for the penalty, seems very harsh, but perhaps consistent. not sure what else he could have done, especially given the proceeding incident.

Edited by icecream, 23 September 2012 - 22:21.


#572 Jejking

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 22:05

This penalty is BS. Webber was already ahead under braking, Kobayashi braked really late and Webber gave him the room whereas Koba drifted a bit to keep his position. What should you do, lock yourself in and get crashed? Nope, Webber did it right.

#573 black magic

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 00:45

In space of two races fia completely reverses its logic

bs decision

#574 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 00:52

Don't know exactly but when his engineer says -around the time he was battling back after his last pitstop - "ok, you can use KERS for one lap", that pretty clearly suggests there was a problem and that he likely hadn't been able to use it much in the race.

I think it was you can use "full KERS" as RBR is usually a lower capacity KERS system. Basically I think they were allowing the system to be over-worked and pushed hard for one lap.

#575 karne

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 02:54

BS. Utter BS penalty. I am seething. What part of HE WAS PUSHED did the stewards not understand?!

This is completely different to Vettel's because Vettel had room and just pointed his car towards the off-track and drove for it. Mark was pushed.


But then it's also BS that Vettel escaped penalty for his dangerous brake test.

WHEN WILL MARK GET SOME LUCK?!

#576 Alfisti

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:04

It's one point, who cares?

#577 Brother Fox

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:10

Does it seem that Red Bull go for the conservative 'lets just play it safe' strategy you use when leading a race when Mark has no chance of winning instead of rolling the dice?

#578 Cenotaph

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:14

At Monza Vettel retired anyway, ppl still care. Penalties do mean something, regardless of the little consequence a particular penalty might have it represents a trend in F1 stewarding that can have bigger consequences later and teaches drivers the wrong lesson.

Essentially, they rule based on who came out on top lately. Everytime it seems that guy must be the one in the wrong, no matter if he actually intends to drive as safe as possible or the opposite. It's stupid beyond belief.

#579 smoothcrim

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:54

they should appeal it,the stewards got it wrong big time.

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#580 Supersleeper

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:25

Not a pleasing decision - but he was reprimanded for leaving the track during qualifying.

Probably the reason that he was punished in the circumstances.

#581 Dauemannen

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:34

So should Button have been penalised in Germany and Alonso in Italy?

Vettel was penalised because on both occasions, he was in the wrong. You sound a little paranoid. With regards to pushing people off the track, some might argue that Vettel did exactly that to Button at Suzuka last year.

I don't think Button should be penalised in Germany, and Alonso clearly shouldn't in Italy as he didn't gain an advantage.

This incident was somewhat similar to Vettel/Button in Germany, the core difference being that Vettel went outside the track before he was forced there, while Webber was wheel to wheel with Koba for the whole corner and couln't possibly have stayed inside the track without crashing. Vettel's penalty was harsh, especially considering it was the first time (to my knowledge) a driver was punished for overtaking around the outside. But I can see the argument for it. He left the track before he had to and gained an advantage. Button would possibly have forced him off it later, but Vettel didn't give him the opportunity. In this case Webber an Kobayashi were wheel to wheel and Webber only left the track because he was forced off it.

The Vettel/Alonso incident in Italy is also similar, the main differences being that Webber committed to the outside before the corner, not in the middle of it, and there was ashphalt rather than grass on the outside. The corner speed was also quite different. Kobayashi was guilty of the exact same thing as Vettel, but unlike Vettel he did not have the mitigating factor of already going towards the outside when Alonso made his move. Had there been ashphalt rather than grass on the outside of Curva Grande, Alonso would be ahead and have the turn in point for the next corner, just like Webber did. The way I see it, if Vettel was guilty, there's no way Kobayashi wasn't. In my opinion neither of them deserved a penalty and Webber's overtake was fair racing. This was clearly double standards, and it looks quite a bit like an agenda to hurt Red Bull. But it could of course just be incompetent stewards. We've seen quite a lot fo that after all.

I don't remember the specifics of Vettel/Button in Suzuka, so I can't comment on that.

#582 InvertedLift

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:31

I said on another forum I thought Webber would get a penalty because McNish was the drivers steward.

When Davidson was out with his back and McNish was commentating the Free Practice sessions it seemed really clear he absolutely HATES Australians for some reason. He was so down on Webber and Ricciardo repeatedly. I have no idea why.

#583 joshb

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:41

BS. Utter BS penalty. I am seething. What part of HE WAS PUSHED did the stewards not understand?!

This is completely different to Vettel's because Vettel had room and just pointed his car towards the off-track and drove for it. Mark was pushed.


But then it's also BS that Vettel escaped penalty for his dangerous brake test.

WHEN WILL MARK GET SOME LUCK?!


still karne, another race without a mechanical DNF, stretches that record run to over 3 years!

#584 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:28

^ If the car's not working properly, it may as well be a DNF when the car doesnt have any top speed to hold people off.

#585 goldenboy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:42

still karne, another race without a mechanical DNF, stretches that record run to over 3 years!

Wow is that right!? Hadn't realised. That is amazing when I think back to the earlier days of torture!

#586 karne

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:05

still karne, another race without a mechanical DNF, stretches that record run to over 3 years!


Crazy that it's been that long. But the long slogs with the car never working properly are almost worse!

#587 encircled

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:09

I think both parties can agree that Red Bull's reliability can be improved for both drivers. :)

#588 karne

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:15

I think both parties can agree that Red Bull's reliability can be improved for both drivers. :)


Can they put Webber's car to the top of the queue though?

Vettel gets all the attention because he had two major DNFs, but the niggling ever-present problems in Mark's car are hurting him more.

#589 engel

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:16

Can they put Webber's car to the top of the queue though?

Vettel gets all the attention because he had two major DNFs, but the niggling ever-present problems in Mark's car are hurting him more.


At this point in the championship Webber's only job is to take points off Alonso, nothing else. He can't be top of the queue in anything.

#590 goldenboy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:18

Can they put Webber's car to the top of the queue though?

Vettel gets all the attention because he had two major DNFs, championships but the niggling ever-present problems in Mark's car are hurting him more.

:lol:  ;)

#591 ausf1webber

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:26

While it does seem at times Mark goes to sleep I think there is more to it.
During qualifying Sebs car was in the first five or six for top speed but Mark was not listed. At one of the recent events web passed Mark like he was standing still so much so that the commentators remarked at mark's lack of top speed. I would like an explanation from Red Bull as to the reason.
It seems to me that Red Bull usually have two strategies for the race A being the most likely to succeed and the B being the alternate one which is given always to Mark maybe based on qualifying result. Nevertheless this would account for his going backwards most races. As well he seems to lack aggression on the opening laps which does not help.

Edited by ausf1webber, 24 September 2012 - 13:30.


#592 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:35

I think on early laps Mark is soooo concious of not burning up his tyres, he falls into the trap of forgetting he needs to make places other than in the pits to get the big points.

IMO, better to burn those tyres and get track position as quickly as possible rather then sit back and hope the tyres of others go off first and you pick them off in the pits. That doesnt really work too well these days anyway, as people come out of the pits on fresh rubber and immediately start setting greens or purples. There's more risk in the former strategy but as Seb showed in Spa, more reward too.

As for the top speed differences between Red Bulls, that would be totally down to setup preferences imo.

#593 engel

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:38

Quali Speed Trap ( http://184.106.145.7.....peed Trap.pdf )

1 4 L. HAMILTON 294.9 21:59:52
2 8 N. ROSBERG 294.5 21:30:32
3 3 J. BUTTON 293.8 21:59:43
4 12 N. HULKENBERG 293.7 21:31:45
5 1 S. VETTEL 293.6 21:59:31
6 6 F. MASSA 293.5 21:40:42
7 7 M. SCHUMACHER 293.4 21:06:16
8 2 M. WEBBER 293.4 21:30:47

0.2km/h, mountain meet molehill

Edited by engel, 24 September 2012 - 13:38.


#594 ausf1webber

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 22:38

Quali Speed Trap ( http://184.106.145.7.....peed Trap.pdf )

1 4 L. HAMILTON 294.9 21:59:52
2 8 N. ROSBERG 294.5 21:30:32
3 3 J. BUTTON 293.8 21:59:43
4 12 N. HULKENBERG 293.7 21:31:45
5 1 S. VETTEL 293.6 21:59:31
6 6 F. MASSA 293.5 21:40:42
7 7 M. SCHUMACHER 293.4 21:06:16
8 2 M. WEBBER 293.4 21:30:47

0.2km/h, mountain meet molehill


I agree but that was not what was shown on tv but I am sure your figures are right. Only query is normally the red Bull cars are well down on top speed but not on your figures at this race.

#595 ch103

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 00:45

I say this as a Webber fan... its going to be a tough end to the championship for him and his fans...

Having to help Seb win a third WDC is going to be rough, no way around it.



#596 HoldenRT

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 14:15

Yes.. Hopeless. :(

#597 HoldenRT

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 14:33

In terms of the penalty.. Webber had plenty of chances this weekend.. he kept pushing the borderline.

He wouldn't have had to if he had of been quicker. Seb showed what the car was capable of.

#598 joshb

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 15:30

It would be a little wierd that the one time all season Vettel gets the gap out to Webber to more than a win that it is a stage where you'd feel most inclined to throw your eggs into 1 basket.
Mark's scored 16 points in 5 races, not all his fault but the reality is 16 in 5 races...
He's 62 off the lead now, and not looking like scoring 62 points in the last 6 races, let alone the 120+ (from 150 available) he might need (most he can get is 282, would only just be enough)

I felt after Monza Mclaren should back Hamilton. I also felt whilst I couldn't see Mark winning the title, it would be impossible to back Seb as they were only 8 points apart.
But now I do feel that they might have to back Seb and it was strange how this occurs the only time all year either driver has 25+ points over the other.

#599 icecream

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 23:54

despite the results, i don't actually think mark did that bad at singapore. his pace was reasonable, but the strategy completely bombed due to the safety cars. he probably would have taken home a decent bag of points otherwise (though he wouldn't have been on the podium).

all in all, i think it's been a combination of bad luck, and average form. hoping he can catch another win before the seasons out, but from here on in I agree he should be helping Seb where possible.

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#600 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 00:06

all in all, i think it's been a combination of bad luck, and average form. hoping he can catch another win before the seasons out, but from here on in I agree he should be helping Seb where possible.

Only in the last 3 races after mathematical elimination of course. So still another 3 (?) races until strict team orders.

As with Vettel in 2010, they will continue to share Q3 final run and new parts until mathematical elimination I'd imagine, as that would be a contractual requirement. :up: