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Mark Webber - Part II


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#901 Obi Offiah

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:41

I was going to start a poll yesterday about the types of car failures Mark will experience this weekend, so far we have a water leak, what next..............................KERS?

Oops!...............Glad I didn't put any money on a KERS failure :rolleyes: .

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#902 sv401

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:52

"Renault's head of track operations Remi Taffin told AUTOSPORT that the French car manufacturer was now happy that it has a version that should not suffer the same problems that have struck this year, and its teams would have to switch across imminently." :rolleyes:

#903 apoka

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:56

Did Webber have car problems at the start of the race or not?

#904 Obi Offiah

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 22:19

"Renault's head of track operations Remi Taffin told AUTOSPORT that the French car manufacturer was now happy that it has a version that should not suffer the same problems that have struck this year, and its teams would have to switch across imminently." :rolleyes:

He may be right. The alternator now suffers from completely new problems. ;)

#905 LiJu914

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 22:28

That was Webber´s first tech-related retirement since Singapore 2009. Pretty impressive streak.

#906 race addicted

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 22:28

Great interview.

Webber never got to show what he could've done this weekend, with problems riding his car in Q3 and from very early in the race. Unbelieveable.

#907 joshb

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 22:34

F*****g alternator. I really wouldn't have minded those extra 3 points to Alonso. He was a shoe-in for 3rd this weekend.

#908 Ian G

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 23:00

Yeah,but i think there was a KERS issue as well from Q3,at least he has + in that the circuit suits him and he had a good start,all he has to do know is concentrate on those tracks with hillclimb starts. :lol:

#909 LoudHoward

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 23:34

Didn't quite have the pace of Seb and Lewis this weekend, but he was looking solid for a podium which would've been very nice at a new venue, and a good way to celebrate the third WCC in a row!

As for the race, launch off the line was maybe average, first corner was great and his pace on the first lap was very good which was nice to see.

RBR might be a bit miffed about his defence against Hamilton, or rather the complete lack of it. When it comes to being a tail gunner, he's a bit like the co-pilot in Memphis Belle.

Bummed about the DNF though, the record streak comes to an end :( Maybe good to get it out of the way now, hopefully he can have a stormer of a race in Brazil to end the year, and I wouldn't mind him actually helping Seb and being a real annoyance to Fernando, even without being asked. It could raise his stock in the team and set a precedent for the very small chance that he needs Seb's help one day, when he's the one going for the title.

#910 repcobrabham

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:07

W.T.F ?!?!

:eek:


that's what he told me when i did a phone interview with him at the end of 2006 - just after he'd signed for red bull. apparently 'big al' is quite the hardass and discouraged all forms of drinking, so mark stuck with the directive. it makes sense, though: as i've said before, you can't be 6ft tall and drive in F1 and drink beer! i think he enjoys the occasional glass of wine, which is an acceptable drink in a pub these days (especially if you own it).

Edited by repcobrabham, 19 November 2012 - 01:07.


#911 Obi Offiah

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:33

RBR might be a bit miffed about his defence against Hamilton, or rather the complete lack of it. When it comes to being a tail gunner, he's a bit like the co-pilot in Memphis Belle.

I was just about to post about the same thing LoudHoward, Mark just left the door wide open and it was a position that could have been defended quite easily by taking the inside line. Perhaps he had some issue with the car at this stage?

#912 joshb

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:47

No qualms about that- as Seb showed, its impossible to defend against a car with 15kph extra at the end of the straight. Seb did well to hold him off for as long as he did, DRS zone killed it today- was a good 100-200m too long

#913 apoka

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:51

No qualms about that- as Seb showed, its impossible to defend against a car with 15kph extra at the end of the straight. Seb did well to hold him off for as long as he did, DRS zone killed it today- was a good 100-200m too long

I'm not so sure. It looked like he could have held up Hamilton and Alonso in the previous race a bit longer. Still, he looked set for an extremely valuable 3rd place and now has to face a probable P5/P6 finish at the end of the season.


#914 GreenMachine

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:09

I was just about to post about the same thing LoudHoward, Mark just left the door wide open and it was a position that could have been defended quite easily by taking the inside line. Perhaps he had some issue with the car at this stage?


Just like God Seb did later in the race, right? :rolleyes:

#915 F.M.

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:49

"Renault's head of track operations Remi Taffin told AUTOSPORT that the French car manufacturer was now happy that it has a version that should not suffer the same problems that have struck this year, and its teams would have to switch across imminently." :rolleyes:

According to Autosport, Red Bull has still been using the older spec alternators

#916 karne

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:30

Can't help but wonder how Mark's season would have gone without the endless mechanical problems.

#917 sv401

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:32

According to Autosport, Red Bull has still been using the older spec alternators


Yes, I noticed that too now, I posted the comment before the Autosport article. The :rolleyes: should be directed at Red Bull then, for ignoring Renault's warnings about using old alternators with too much mileage. It was also stupid not to use the new spec version at least in Webber's car in order to test it before being used in both cars in Brazil. I would also have thought that they tested the upgraded alternators for reliability at the Abu Dhabi young drivers' test.

Edited by sv401, 19 November 2012 - 10:34.


#918 Jon83

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 13:08

Can't help but wonder how Mark's season would have gone without the endless mechanical problems.


Probably not much better.

Webber has very good weekends every so often but tends to go missing as well.

#919 race addicted

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 13:26

Can't help but wonder how Mark's season would have gone without the endless mechanical problems.


He had good momentum before the probs started, gearbox penalty etc, and KERS failure by default almost all season. He would've been in the title-fight.

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#920 joshb

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 13:47

Can't help but wonder how Mark's season would have gone without the endless mechanical problems.


A solid but distant 3rd, like his race in USA

#921 ali.unal

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 13:51

Just like God Seb did later in the race, right? :rolleyes:

Sebastian put up a fight even risking his race when he didn't need to, whilst Mark didn't when he needed to. He just left the room. Granted, Lewis Hamilton would have passed him anyway, but at least Webber might have done it a bit harder for Hamilton for the sake of making him lose time.

#922 Sardukar

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 18:05

Sebastian put up a fight even risking his race when he didn't need to, whilst Mark didn't when he needed to. He just left the room. Granted, Lewis Hamilton would have passed him anyway, but at least Webber might have done it a bit harder for Hamilton for the sake of making him lose time.


So he could lose even more time defending and possibly be overtaken by Alonso? webber probably thought vettel could hold off hamilton at that point in the race.

#923 goingthedistance

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 18:40

If Webber's KERS was already in terminal decline he had no hope on the straights.

#924 Obi Offiah

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 19:09

Just like God Seb did later in the race, right? :rolleyes:

I suggest you watch the pass again. With the benefit of a back marker Lewis was in a position to breeze past Seb even before reaching the braking zone. Against Mark they were side by side in the braking zone, so Mark could have chosen to cover the inside. Mark may have had an issue with his car or been worried about loss of grip on the dirty side.

EDIT:
Webber was actually still well ahead, deep into the braking zone.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 19 November 2012 - 20:49.


#925 Diablobb81

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 18:37

Sometimes you have to wonder wtf is wrong with this guy.

Edited by Diablobb81, 25 November 2012 - 18:37.


#926 DrF

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 19:04

Sometimes you have to wonder wtf is wrong with this guy.

Why was he covering Vettel at the start, instead of keeping Massa behind him?

#927 Diablobb81

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 19:10

Why was he covering Vettel at the start, instead of keeping Massa behind him?


Yeah, i mean the start. I was one of the most idiotic things i've seen. Only worse would have been if he had taken Seb out.

#928 krapmeister

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 19:10

Why was he covering Vettel at the start, instead of keeping Massa behind him?


Always going to be hard to cover the Ferraris at the start as they are usually so quick off the line. TBH I thought he was trying to cover Hulkenberg initially but yeah could've been a bit wider into T1...

#929 choyothe

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 19:17

Why was he covering Vettel at the start, instead of keeping Massa behind him?


Exactly, it was unbelievable. Totally bottlenecked Vettel in the start and let Alonso sail past from the outside. Hard to understand.

#930 H2H

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 19:19

Exactly, it was unbelievable. Totally bottlenecked Vettel in the start and let Alonso sail past from the outside. Hard to understand.


It is hard to understand or maybe not considering the behavior of Mark over the years.

All in all it all went downhill for Mark after some great drives in the first half of the season and the 6th place doesn't look of course too good. I hope he will have a better year in 2013.

Edited by H2H, 25 November 2012 - 19:24.


#931 abc

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 19:20

Absolutely useless man, absolutely

#932 Sardukar

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 19:31

What was he suppose to do? first 2 corners are double file. If he had of moved to the right of the track, massa would possibly have made a move down the inside and if he stayed in the middle its possible he would have made contact with someone. The plan was for vettel to just score some points to win the WDC and for webber to protect him, i think it worked out fine.

At the end of the day, Webber was faster this weekend, out qualified and out raced Vettel.

#933 H2H

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 19:42

At the end of the day, Webber was faster this weekend, out qualified and out raced Vettel.



Out-qualified his teammate? Yes

Out-raced his teammate? Absolutely and most certainly - not.

#934 sosidge

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 19:46

What was he suppose to do? first 2 corners are double file. If he had of moved to the right of the track, massa would possibly have made a move down the inside and if he stayed in the middle its possible he would have made contact with someone. The plan was for vettel to just score some points to win the WDC and for webber to protect him, i think it worked out fine.

At the end of the day, Webber was faster this weekend, out qualified and out raced Vettel.


If it hadn't have been for the pitstop mistakes for Vettel, Webber would have been well behind, despite Vettel being in last place with a damaged car at the end of the first lap.

Webber once again proved why he is the last guy you want on your "team". Of all the people to squeeze off the line, he chooses his teammate who is going for the championship. Didn't see half as much fight from him as he waved the Ferrari's past. And he was thinking of the same move on the SC restart! I'm sure the Aussie vernacular has plenty of phrases for that kind of behaviour.

At least SV is far enough ahead of Webber in talent that he doesn't need his help to win 3x WDCs.

#935 race addicted

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 19:50

Webber moved only because he had a Ferrari coming past him on the outside.

Gritty race from Webber, and he's had a very, very good season I think. All momentum sadly lost after the summer break, and in addition to that I think he's only had five or six races where his KERS actually worked throughout.

#936 LoudHoward

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:00

Frustrating as a Webber fan, we all know he can do the business, but not sure what goes on in his head sometimes. Looked to defend harder against Seb off the line here than he did in Korea...

Was hoping for a Schumacher at Malaysia '99 kind of performance today, which I think would've put him in a stronger position within the team for next season, even psychologically with Seb, but instead we got that. Red Bull cop a lot for their treatment of Mark, but if we saw this then they saw it too, and then there's the smart alec comments, the lying about injuries and things like finding another gear in Abu Dhabi when Seb cruises up to him.

I'm sure he thinks if he gives an inch it somehow makes him #2, but it's his performances that do that, all these little things he does just help create a divide between him and what he ultimately wants.

#937 joshb

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:06

Good weekend for Mark on one of his better tracks. Like Seb, suffered misfortune and had to come through the pack. A crazy race and he didn't need that extra stop for dries just as it rained. But a good drive nonetheless

#938 KavB

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:10

Must be pretty gutting to see your teammate win three titles in a row. Mark needs to tell himself that he can do it too. He was ahead of Seb at one point of the season but he has been pretty poor ever since the summer break which is when Seb went to another level.



#939 LoudHoward

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:16

Webber moved only because he had a Ferrari coming past him on the outside.


I disagree. I think he spent the entire straight edging over on Seb, pinching him in so he had to lift early for T1, regardless of how much space was on his outside (generally plenty). Sequence of events as I saw them;

- Off the line, starts moving towards Seb.
- Massa behind him makes to move to his (Marks) right, makes no move to defend, continues towards Seb.
- Car width of space either side of Mark, continues moving towards Seb.
- Seb and Mark close together, Hulk goes to Marks right, Mark continues to move towards Seb.
- Alonso and Hulk are behind him on his right, Massa is clear of him, there's about 3-4 car widths to his right, half a foot between him and Seb, continues to move left and pinch Seb in.

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I think it was a happy coincidence that they blocked Hulk, Marks moves seemed to be completely driven by where Seb was, rather than anyone else. Only way Mark was going to win the race was if he was at the front and Seb was a couple of cars back in the pack, that's what he was trying to manufacture imo.


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#940 apoka

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:30

If your analysis is right, 2013 could become very difficult for Webber. I was a bit disappointed by him over the last few races as well. He can be very fast, but is sometimes too inconsistent and also not really a team player. In hindsight, a move to a team like Lotus may have been the better option (he could be quicker and certainly more consistent than Grosjean - it could be a win-win).


#941 shonguiz

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:45

You know i have always tended to defend this guy but one thing i still don't understand is the contrast between his defense against Vettel and against the others, specialy Alonso. I know they like each other and that his relationship with vettel is a very cold one, and sometimes that make me wonder things.

#942 sv401

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:48

Maybe it would be good to swap Webber (who would apparently rather support Alonso than Vettel) and Massa, although it will not happen.

Edited by sv401, 25 November 2012 - 21:50.


#943 race addicted

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:50

I disagree. I think he spent the entire straight edging over on Seb, pinching him in so he had to lift early for T1, regardless of how much space was on his outside (generally plenty). Sequence of events as I saw them;

(.....)


You've made a good case. I just remember from the replay how close Webber and Massa was braking for T1, and thought that was why he had no choice but to squeeze over towards Vettel.

#944 Brother Fox

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:06

So how do the 'webber hates vettel' people explain him moving over later in the race to allow Seb to slip by easily?


#945 sv401

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:08

So how do the 'webber hates vettel' people explain him moving over later in the race to allow Seb to slip by easily?


Team radio, possibly.

#946 Brother Fox

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:14

Well apprently hes some sort of rogue agent who only acts for himself and doesnt care about the team

#947 Gareth

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:40

The chaos of T1 provides plausible deniability. Refusing a team order does not have that.

#948 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:40

I will just add my 2 cents here. Vettel won the championship but not thanks to Webber. So many races where he should have kept Alonso behind him. And this was another one where he failed to do that. He is clearly not a team player and every race I get another reason to wonder why on earth Red Bull keeps entertaining him. Sorry. But thats just how I see it.

#949 Brother Fox

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:42

So many races where he should have kept Alonso behind him.

If you ignore the fact that the Red Bull is crap in a straight line and the Ferrari is a monster .... and throw in some consistent KERS dramas too

#950 karne

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:44

If you ignore the fact that the Red Bull is crap in a straight line and the Ferrari is a monster .... and throw in some consistent KERS dramas too


:up:

That first lap was insane. I don't think Mark gave a toss about where Vettel was as long as he wasn't going to hit him - he was worried about his own race, and he has every right to worry for his own race!