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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#1 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 12:13

Continuation of the discussion of Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03. Previous thread: http://forums.autosp...howtopic=155165

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#2 Lamag

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 12:29

Nico Rosberg is optimistic his Mercedes car will be well suited to the demands of the Gilles Villeneuve circuit in the Canadian Grand Prix next week.

The track, which rewards good top speed and stable braking, will host the seventh round of the championship and Rosberg reckons his car has what it takes to shine there.

The German driver, who took a commanding victory in the Chinese Grand Prix, finished a close second at Monaco last weekend.

"With its low downforce and slow corners, a little bit like Monza, the track should suit our car," said Rosberg in a team preview.

"We've made good progress over the past few weeks, and that was clear from the performance in Monaco.

"So I'm hopeful that we can make another step forward in Canada and have a successful weekend."

Team boss Ross Brawn is also hopeful the team can keep its momentum going after the strong showing in Monaco.

"On the back of a successful weekend in Monaco which saw Michael qualify first on Saturday and Nico finish in second place on Sunday, everyone at the team wants to keep the momentum going and get the racing underway in Montreal next weekend," he said.

"We're looking forward to putting on a good show and hope to have another strong weekend."


http://www.autosport...t.php/id/100027

#3 Kompressor

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 14:01

I love how the teams talk up their chances for success prior to every race. I agree that Mercedes should be strong at circuits with low downforce and slow corners. There is a trend developing but the track temperature is a variable that can foil any plans.

#4 Lamag

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 15:13

I cant wait to see the F1 W03 at Silverstone in order to see if the updates are worth enough to keep the car at the top.

#5 korzeniow

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 15:28

I cant wait to see the F1 W03 at Silverstone in order to see if the updates are worth enough to keep the car at the top.


There were plenty updates for aero demanding Barcelona. There, you have your answer.

#6 Timstr11

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 15:52

There were plenty updates for aero demanding Barcelona. There, you have your answer.

The new narrower sidepods and rear brake setup were first seen in Monaco, not Barcelona.


#7 korzeniow

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 16:09

The new narrower sidepods and rear brake setup were first seen in Monaco, not Barcelona.


But new nosecone and new gearbox appeared in Barcelona. But the pace was significantly slower from front runners pace

#8 ivand911

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 16:12

But new nosecone and new gearbox appeared in Barcelona. But the pace was significantly slower from front runners pace

Only MS has new gearbox in Barcelona and we know where he end. New nosecone means nothing, I think it is used for the first time in Monaco.

Edited by ivand911, 01 June 2012 - 16:47.


#9 salamin

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 16:36

There were plenty updates for aero demanding Barcelona. There, you have your answer.


most of the updates came for monaco, and the track characteristic of montreal is different compared to barcelona

#10 ivand911

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 16:53

Montreal, Preview – Michael: “A trip to Montreal is always worth it”

For Michael, “the Canadian Grand Prix is all about the great atmosphere at the track and in the city. The Canadian fans make the whole weekend into a real celebration and, for us drivers, it's great to feel their passion for motorsport. That gives us a natural boost and it would be great to give them even more reasons to celebrate at the end of the weekend.
The race in Montreal is usually action-packed, like we saw last year. The characteristics of the circuit should suit us, and we are counting on our car performing well there. As I said: a trip to Montreal is always worth it. And let's hope we can make our trip this year especially worthwhile.”



#11 chrisaix

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 17:08

Lets hope for a first 1-2! :up:

#12 KiloWatt

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 17:54

There were plenty updates for aero demanding Barcelona. There, you have your answer.


I believe Monaco saw more updates. And both cars didn't have all the updates in Barcelona.

Edited by D.M.N., 01 June 2012 - 20:26.
remove "And as an aside, you can quite insufferable at times. Has anyone ever told you that?"


#13 korzeniow

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 18:05

I believe Monaco saw more updates. And both cars didn't have all the updates in Barcelona.


Where they introduced more updates is arguable. I stand by Barcelona

Montreal should be reasonably good for them, but there are too little slow speed corners to make diffrence. We will see how they improved in terms of tyre management, because you can't judge it by Monaco's smooth track surface.

But I can't see them performing well in Silerstone, unless it will be very cold

Edited by D.M.N., 01 June 2012 - 20:26.
remove quote and follow on line


#14 Szoelloe

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 18:49

Where they introduced more updates is arguable. I stand by Barcelona

Montreal should be reasonably good for them, but there are too little slow speed corners to make diffrence. We will see how they improved in terms of tyre management, because you can't judge it by Monaco's smooth track surface.

But I can't see them performing well in Silerstone, unless it will be very cold


First developments were tried in Mugello. We didn't even notice. In Barcelona the new carbon gearbox was installed in MS's car only, because he had the option of a free gearbox change. NR had to wait another race, The full package was consolidated by Monaco, and by then on both cars. So I get it that you hope the Barcelona performance was indicative of the introduced development's gain, seeing it as still inferior to Lotus, but it is not. Merc had said that they will gain approx 0,8s by Monaco, and they said it right before Barcelona. Brawn had said on the Thursday before Monaco, that they had made considerable progress with the car, and it seems that he was not exaggerating. The Drivers themselves praised the team in the past few weeks for the development effort they have made. So no, the upgrades were introduced step-by-step, as top teams do it, no new front wing (lol) but basically a new, fully crash-tested car for Monaco. And this is only the beginning.

Edited by D.M.N., 01 June 2012 - 20:27.
delete some of quote now deleted


#15 korzeniow

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 19:13

First developments were tried in Mugello. We didn't even notice. In Barcelona the new carbon gearbox was installed in MS's car only, because he had the option of a free gearbox change. NR had to wait another race, The full package was consolidated by Monaco, and by then on both cars. So I get it that you hope the Barcelona performance was indicative of the introduced development's gain, seeing it as still inferior to Lotus, but it is not. Merc had said that they will gain approx 0,8s by Monaco, and they said it right before Barcelona. Brawn had said on the Thursday before Monaco, that they had made considerable progress with the car, and it seems that he was not exaggerating. The Drivers themselves praised the team in the past few weeks for the development effort they have made. So no, the upgrades were introduced step-by-step, as top teams do it, no new front wing (lol) but basically a new, fully crash-tested car for Monaco. And this is only the beginning.


New front wing, new nosecone, new gearbox were raced in Barcelona. In Monaco they updated sidepods.

I remember Rosberg before Bahrain where he praised the car. http://planetf1.com/...it-will-suit-us but was lapping 1.5 off the pace.

You can fool yourself looking only on Monaco result, fooling yourself that it's representative for the car's performance but it's Barcelona's track role (indicating the form), not Monaco's

Edited by D.M.N., 01 June 2012 - 20:28.
remove "Don't give me this BS about praising the development effort, it's purely PR BS. " and "Considerable progress it thier catchphrase" - baiting others into response


#16 Kingshark

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 19:25

Montreal should be reasonably good for them, but there are too little slow speed corners to make diffrence. We will see how they improved in terms of tyre management, because you can't judge it by Monaco's smooth track surface.

But I can't see them performing well in Silerstone, unless it will be very cold


Montreal is generally cold. Mercedes are very conservative on its tyres in cooler conditions. Think back to China, where they creamed the field and Rosberg made the two-stop strategy work. :up:

#17 Szoelloe

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 19:30

New front wing, new nosecone, new gearbox were raced in Barcelona. In Monaco they updated sidepods.

I remember Rosberg before Bahrain where he praised the car. http://planetf1.com/...it-will-suit-us but was lapping 1.5 off the pace.

You can fool yourself looking only on Monaco result, fooling yourself that it's representative for the car's performance but it's Barcelona's track role (indicating the form), not Monaco's


:lol: Rosberg's comments are usually BS, yes, I can agree with that, so don't quote them, because it is not relevant either. Front wing is not that different, and is not giving big gains in itself, you may have some experience about that from Lotus by now. New gearbox was introduced only in MS's car as I said, so again, you cannot possibly size up what it brings in itself, especially because it was the first step for the new supension. Again, I said consolidated, because the big step was made when the full package was introduced after crash tests, and that was Monaco. If it is permanent, we will see in the next few races. The full package was introduced in Monaco, and it was well documented too.

Edited by D.M.N., 01 June 2012 - 20:29.
remove things aimed at other user


#18 korzeniow

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 19:46

:lol: Rosberg's comments are usually BS, yes, I can agree with that, so don't quote them, because it is not relevant either. Front wing is not that different, and is not giving big gains in itself, you may have some experience about that from Lotus by now. New gearbox was introduced only in MS's car as I said, so again, you cannot possibly size up what it brings in itself, especially because it was the first step for the new supension. Again, I said consolidated, because the big step was made when the full package was introduced after crash tests, and that was Monaco. If it is permanent, we will see in the next few races. The full package was introduced in Monaco, and it was well documented too.


Rear crash test certainly was made after changing the gearbox. Front crash test certainly was made after changing the nosecone. Those were made before Barcelona.
Only crash test required for Monaco GP was sidepods crash test.

Edited by D.M.N., 01 June 2012 - 20:30.
remove "Calling me delusional :lol: But I can forgive you, seeing how you desperately grasp for some logical explenation, like sinking for the breath of air, why updates didn't bring much performance for Spanish GP."


#19 D.M.N.

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 20:31

Let's keep it civil please, personal attacks and things aimed at other users will be removed. Please focus on the posts and discuss the relative merits, but do not focus on the poster.

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#20 KiloWatt

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 21:01

I remember Rosberg before Bahrain where he praised the car. http://planetf1.com/...it-will-suit-us but was lapping 1.5 off the pace.


In a season where realtive car performace swings dramaticallt with the smallest of track temperature variations, where an unprecedented 6 winners on the trot occurs, where one car wins in a race and is lapped the next... What a driver says before a race is worth exactly Jack Shit and you kwow it.

#21 BigCHrome

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 21:21

Lets hope that the tire wear will be good at the higher degradation tracks too.

#22 ivand911

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 21:23

Rear crash test certainly was made after changing the gearbox. Front crash test certainly was made after changing the nosecone. Those were made before Barcelona.
Only crash test required for Monaco GP was sidepods crash test.

We don't know when they did crash test, so it is useless to continue. Gearbox have to be used 5 races ,so Nico didn't have new gearbox in his car. Did MS has new rear brakes we don't know. So, I don't get what you mean. Nobody knows what is happening. I remember a lot of funny stuff before China. If you have any proof speak , if not it is useless to speculate. Canada will come and truth will reveal itself. Be patient for Monaco Ver.2.


#23 ViMaMo

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 06:18

Isnt this a track with high tire degradation?

#24 F1Champion

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 09:20

Yep, the reasoning behind the degrading Pirelli's and improving the "show".

The Mercedes even with their F-duct isn't that high in the speed traps. I was surprised at Barcelona, I know that run more downforce knowing that the F-Duct can help them when DRS is engaged to achieve a high top speed but even then they aren't anywhere near the top of the speed traps and it can only really be used in qualifying.

Maybe the car isn't that efficient in terms of drag/downforce, otherwise I would expect them near the top without DRS and definately at the top with it. The Renault looks pretty good in a straight line.

Maybe Canada won't be that good for them. It should be in qualifying, but the race is different because the DRS won't really be engaged if you're at the front. Plus if its raining then its anyone's game.

#25 ivand911

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 09:51

Isnt this a track with high tire degradation?

I guess not, if they chose S and SS tyres.


#26 Bleu

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 13:03

The layout of the Montreal circuit doesn't cause tyres to degrade. It's mostly how the tyres react to the track surface which is different compared to most other circuits. I think it's different because Montreal has one of the coldest winters of the F1 calendar.

#27 baddog

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 21:57

No real fast corners.. its the brakes that suffer in Montreal.

#28 ivand911

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 07:37

No real fast corners. its the brakes that suffer in Montreal.

The favorite sentence in this thread.


#29 baddog

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 09:17

Not sure I take your point?

#30 Sakae

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 10:01

The layout of the Montreal circuit doesn't cause tyres to degrade. It's mostly how the tyres react to the track surface which is different compared to most other circuits. I think it's different because Montreal has one of the coldest winters of the F1 calendar.

I am not sure that I follow what it is you are saying. Cold winters imply surface irregularities due to water seepage during thaw periods, and braking up as it again freezes, which is precisely a reason why in Canada roads are so frequently resurfaced, as conditions deteriorate rapidly. With respect to race track, one would have to assume that surface is rough on tires, with proportional degradation that is expected to follow out of it. I do not recall at the moment when Montreal track was resurfaced last time, but I expect soft tires not to last very long with increased surface contamination by loose rubber.

Edited by Sakae, 03 June 2012 - 10:32.


#31 Pits

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 10:05

I am not sure that I follow what it is you are saying. Cold winters imply surface irregularities due to water seepage during thaw periods, and braking up as it again freezes, which is precisely a reason why in Canada roads are so frequently resurfaced, as coditions deteriorates rapidly. With respect to race track, one would have to assume that surface is rough on tires, with proportional degradation that is expected to follow out of it. I do not recall at the moment when Montreal track was resurfaced last time, but I expect soft tires not to last very long with increased surface contamination by loose rubber.


I'll have to agree. Montreal is high degredation, especially compared to Monaco.

#32 ivand911

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 10:15

Not sure I take your point?

I mean W03 is not good at fast corners. So, the track with not fast corners is good for the team. Until now.

I'll have to agree. Montreal is high degredation, especially compared to Monaco.

Ok, why Pirelli didn't go for more durable tyre? Soft plus medium ,or medium plus hard.

Edited by ivand911, 03 June 2012 - 10:18.


#33 Pits

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 10:28

Ok, why Pirelli didn't go for more durable tyre? Soft plus medium ,or medium plus hard.


Yeah, why is a good question. I gues it's for the greater purpose, to create a show... :down:

#34 ivand911

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 19:16

Posted Image
Bob Bell is here.
Posted Image
Posted Image

Edited by ivand911, 07 June 2012 - 19:18.


#35 rodfarva

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 19:26

Isnt this a track with high tire degradation?


nope. it's a smooth track (i've walked it many times) and the corner g's are pretty low. degradation comes from spinning on acceleration, and possibly the many hard braking zones. the ss lasted a long time in monaco. there's no reason to think it won't last 20-25 laps here. which is why pirelli brought it.

#36 CoolBreeze

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 05:30

nope. it's a smooth track (i've walked it many times) and the corner g's are pretty low. degradation comes from spinning on acceleration, and possibly the many hard braking zones. the ss lasted a long time in monaco. there's no reason to think it won't last 20-25 laps here. which is why pirelli brought it.



What? It is a high degraddation track, especially at the hairpin...

#37 ivand911

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 06:20

There is many different asphalts on this track. So one part can be smooth ,other part can be rough. This is what I read.

One individual quirk of the Canadian Grand Prix is the track itself. The Circuit Gilles Villeneuve is composed of many different types of asphalt as different sections have been resurfaced at different times over the years. This, in itself, can cause set-up issues.

http://www.yallaf1.c...hnical-feature/

Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by ivand911, 08 June 2012 - 07:02.


#38 korzeniow

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 07:34

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/100178

"I think we have been pretty good actually since after Malaysia," he said. "We understood the car very well and we managed to do consistent races since that moment. It is all about understanding the car and getting the maximum out.


:confused:

What is he talking about? They were good in Bahrain and Spain?

#39 ivand911

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 07:51

What is he talking about? They were good in Bahrain and Spain?

They were good, tyres not.


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#40 1Devil1

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 07:55

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/100178



:confused:

What is he talking about? They were good in Bahrain and Spain?


McLaren were good in Spain or Bahrain? Red Bull was good in China or Spain? Perhaps you understood the season is an on and off so far and Mercedes were not bad in Bahrain or Spain. Rosberg got some decent points. Michael know mercedes can't be a contender for a victory every time - no team is! Mercedes suffered from terrible tire wear in the first two races and Ross and the team said since china they improved massively and Michael is referring to that

#41 ivand911

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 08:12

No cascades:
http://www.formula1....2/d12cdn380.jpg

#42 Pizdek

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 09:25

Well, its usual that we re good in Montreal and with DDS qualifing will play in our hand. With Schumacher s form and Nico constantly being fast we must grab at least second row. In race, we all now the tyres as they are, simply cant say that pole setter will win... Defenetly we are sorting out that frustrationg tyre degradation and I m totally confidant in good result.



#43 Zava

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 09:45

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/100178



:confused:

What is he talking about? They were good in Bahrain and Spain?

wel since then, Rosberg is the best points scorer.

#44 Lamag

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 12:52

No cascades:
http://www.formula1....2/d12cdn380.jpg



It make sense, Montreal its all about TOP Speed and Mechanical Grip because of the long straights and the slow corners.

#45 ivand911

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 13:03

It make sense, Montreal its all about TOP Speed and Mechanical Grip because of the long straights and the slow corners.

Still there is chance they are not mounted yet. They maybe have some changes on cascades mounting. Will see.


#46 Lamag

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 13:30

The good thing about the F1 W03 is that is very good on Mechanical Grip and TOP Speed. I know that is very soon but I think the Pole could be possible.

Edited by Lamag, 08 June 2012 - 13:31.


#47 Szoelloe

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 13:41

Still there is chance they are not mounted yet. They maybe have some changes on cascades mounting. Will see.



Not likely. It is a low-DF track, and this is a low DF wing.

#48 ivand911

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 14:16

Not likely. It is a low-DF track, and this is a low DF wing.

All other teams run cascades. Couldn't see the W03 yet.
Yes, Nico run with cascades.

Edited by ivand911, 08 June 2012 - 14:19.


#49 Starish

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 14:21

Yup cascade is on nico.. none on msc.

Edited by Starish, 08 June 2012 - 14:25.


#50 ivand911

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 14:45

Yup cascade is on nico.. none on msc.

Now it is the opposite.