Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 6 votes

Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
3093 replies to this topic

#551 sharo

sharo
  • Member

  • 1,772 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 14 July 2012 - 20:44

I didn't recall to contribute some useful content here in this thread for a long time :lol:

How true :lol:

Thanks for the link - I need the one with the red helmet. ;)

Edited by sharo, 14 July 2012 - 20:45.


Advertisement

#552 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 16 July 2012 - 17:05

How true :lol:

Thanks for the link - I need the one with the red helmet.;)

http://f1zoom.co.cc/...B...1695&full=1
http://f1zoom.co.cc/...B...1696&full=1
http://f1zoom.co.cc/...B...1716&full=1
http://f1zoom.co.cc/...B...1715&full=1

Not a good weather for MGP in Germany. Sunny and hotter. No rain.

Edited by ivand911, 16 July 2012 - 17:07.


#553 sharo

sharo
  • Member

  • 1,772 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 16 July 2012 - 18:32

Благодаря, Иване :up:

#554 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 7,596 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 18 July 2012 - 14:55

Curious to see what Mercedes will bring as aerodynamic (if at all) or other developments.
Seems like they've lost quite bit of confidence and steam compared to the start of the season.

#555 Massa_f1

Massa_f1
  • Member

  • 3,307 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 18 July 2012 - 18:25

Curious to see what Mercedes will bring as aerodynamic (if at all) or other developments.
Seems like they've lost quite bit of confidence and steam compared to the start of the season.



Mercedes brining aerodynamic updates. I can only dream. Sadly they never seem to bring any major developments.

#556 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,646 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 18 July 2012 - 20:39

Mercedes brining aerodynamic updates. I can only dream. Sadly they never seem to bring any major developments.


HUH??


#557 Massa_f1

Massa_f1
  • Member

  • 3,307 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 18 July 2012 - 20:58

HUH??


Well what is visually new on the car since the first few races?

#558 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 9,664 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 18 July 2012 - 21:05

Well what is visually new on the car since the first few races?


Perhaps you don't have an eye for detail. Here is it in China, when it last won a race, and in the last race.

Posted Image

Posted Image

The nose, nose pillars, front wing, mirror mounts and the aero detail at the front of the sidepod are clearly developed. And that's just one angle.

#559 DutchCruijff

DutchCruijff
  • Member

  • 933 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 18 July 2012 - 21:12

Cheapracer proven right as the season has drawn out...

Advertisement

#560 Spa95

Spa95
  • Member

  • 861 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 19 July 2012 - 11:25

Mercedes and Ferrari will carry out their young driver test in Magny Cours after the Italian GP.

http://translate.goo...en-5243621.html

Edited by Spa95, 19 July 2012 - 11:26.


#561 Igorr

Igorr
  • Member

  • 222 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 19 July 2012 - 14:30

any updates for this race?

#562 RedBaron

RedBaron
  • Member

  • 2,767 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 19 July 2012 - 14:46

any updates for this race?


haha how disappointing. I was just looking through all the wonderful shots and discussions about the McLaren updates. I come to the Mercedes topic and what do I see, just that question at the top of the page... followed by nothing.

Pic us people! Even wild theories, I want to read something.

#563 DutchCruijff

DutchCruijff
  • Member

  • 933 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 19 July 2012 - 14:48

Well don't tell anyone, but the forces in Stuttgart are holding back only for Schumacher to make a dramatic come-back and clinch the title in Brazil.

#564 RedBaron

RedBaron
  • Member

  • 2,767 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 19 July 2012 - 14:49

Well don't tell anyone, but the forces in Stuttgart are holding back only for Schumacher to make a dramatic come-back and clinch the title in Brazil.


Now that's a theory!

#565 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 19 July 2012 - 16:06

Posted Image
Posted Image
Nothing new.

#566 RedBaron

RedBaron
  • Member

  • 2,767 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 19 July 2012 - 17:09

Maybe the ones with changes are out back... not on display for all to see. Won't be used until late in FP1?

#567 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,646 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 19 July 2012 - 17:18

Nothing new.


Yep. Like they usually put new parts on display on thursday afternoon.


#568 Pits

Pits
  • Member

  • 415 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 19 July 2012 - 17:36

I have to say Ivan, you are pretty negative towards MercGP and to be hounest I can't blame you.
But at the other hand, they do have a super technical team with Brawn, Bell, Costa and Willis and two great drivers.
Result are almost inevitable especialy with the back-up of Merc-AMG.

They are together now since Januari, I'd give them some more time.
I'm expecting a great car in 2013 and also some nice development in the second half of 2012. :cool:

#569 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,646 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 19 July 2012 - 17:44

I have to say Ivan, you are pretty negative towards MercGP and to be hounest I can't blame you.
But at the other hand, they do have a super technical team with Brawn, Bell, Costa and Willis and two great drivers.
Result are almost inevitable especialy with the back-up of Merc-AMG.

They are together now since Januari, I'd give them some more time.
I'm expecting a great car in 2013 and also some nice development in the second half of 2012. :cool:


aye


#570 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 19 July 2012 - 17:51

Yep. Like they usually put new parts on display on thursday afternoon.

I really don't remember old stuff on Thursday and new stuff on Friday in a weekend. I remember new stuff put on the car on Thursday. What is the point to hide it?


#571 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 7,596 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 19 July 2012 - 18:14

Judging by recent comments from Ross Brawn, they think the key to unlocking the tyres is not downforce but something else. Lotus is proofing that to quite an extent.

Whereas at RedBull, Mclaren and Ferrari, there seems to be a relentless pursuit of downforce.
Button today:

"The more downforce you have, the fewer issues [you have] everywhere else," he said. "You can get tyre temperature, so you can take away the parts of the car we have had to put on to help, which will give us more downforce again.
"Downforce just helps everything: it covers up issues you can't solve any other way. I don't think we have had a big enough update before to be in the mix. Here we have that update and I hope that it takes us back to the front.
"Our long-run pace is definitely a weakness: if you look at our degradation compared to some of the quicker teams, which also includes Sauber, we are weaker in that area. Some of it is because they have got more downforce than us."


Two schools of thought it seems.
Who's right?

#572 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,646 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 19 July 2012 - 18:17

I really don't remember old stuff on Thursday and new stuff on Friday in a weekend. I remember new stuff put on the car on Thursday. What is the point to hide it?


If they would have anything radical, I don't think it would be on the rack in front of the garage. Nothing visually radical coming though, at least not on the parts on the picture. They have said they are concentrating on tyres, so upgrades should not be visually different, at least not strikingly so. Merc is not a marketing team, putting new front wings and gadgets on show is just not their style. I don't think that they have any serious aero problems, suitable tracks for Merc are coming up, with increased race pace, anything is possible. The car is developed, not all upgrades are visually outstanding, if the car can be made competitive without major changes to the bodywork, I don't see any reason to change things just for the sake of it. Only thing that would stand out visually is changing the exhaust config, but, as it has been stated many times, the exhausts are vastly overrated by now, there is no diffuser war anymore. The secret is in the small details now because of the tyres provided this year, so I do not expect anything too different from what we saw already. If the car is more competitive, I don't really care either. Let's see from tomorrow, I hardly think they are lying or exaggerating about developments, they never have. Plus, to all the nay-sayers about development: they have basically re-built the car since race one, and barely anyone noticed it, its not like they are sitting on their behinds.


#573 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 9,664 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 19 July 2012 - 18:19

I have to say Ivan, you are pretty negative towards MercGP and to be hounest I can't blame you.
But at the other hand, they do have a super technical team with Brawn, Bell, Costa and Willis and two great drivers.
Result are almost inevitable especialy with the back-up of Merc-AMG.

They are together now since Januari, I'd give them some more time.
I'm expecting a great car in 2013 and also some nice development in the second half of 2012. :cool:


Exactly. Costa and Willis have had minimal impact on the current car. The W04 is the first car which will bare the fruit, from the beginning, of the trio combined. That's why Schumacher will probably stay, and why they must fight for the championship next year.

#574 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,646 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 19 July 2012 - 18:30

Judging by recent comments from Ross Brawn, they think the key to unlocking the tyres is not downforce but something else. Lotus is proofing that to quite an extent.

Whereas at RedBull, Mclaren and Ferrari, there seems to be a relentless pursuit of downforce.
Button today:

Two schools of thought it seems.
Who's right?


Depends on the design, IMHO. If the car is already ok with this season's P Zeros, than aero development rules. That could apply to Ferrari and RB, but Mc could be seriously down the wrong road if the tyres suck on their design, and they concentrate on aero. I would put Lotus in the first group, but I hardly think they have the resources and power to keep up a forced development rate, though of course, they could prove me wrong, we will see. It is interesting though.


#575 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 7,596 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 19 July 2012 - 19:40

Depends on the design, IMHO. If the car is already ok with this season's P Zeros, than aero development rules. That could apply to Ferrari and RB, but Mc could be seriously down the wrong road if the tyres suck on their design, and they concentrate on aero. I would put Lotus in the first group, but I hardly think they have the resources and power to keep up a forced development rate, though of course, they could prove me wrong, we will see. It is interesting though.

True, but what is it that makes the car OK for the tyres? That's the interesting question the team needs to answer if they want to improve tyres usage, if not this year, next year.
This, provided Pirelli retains these pesky tyres. The noise they seem to be making now is that they are willing to widen the operating window of the tyres (Re the experimental hard tyre test tomorrow).

#576 f1rules

f1rules
  • Member

  • 4,389 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 19 July 2012 - 20:00

mercedes again this year going nowhere fast, what is wrong with this team

#577 Kingshark

Kingshark
  • Member

  • 2,944 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 20 July 2012 - 02:22

Aldo Costa was the head designer of the Ferrari cars between 2007 - 2011 and was also Rory Byrne's assistant in the Ferrari days before that. And Geoff Willis was the chief designer of the 2004 BAR. Mercedes have do have a lot of potential in our technical director team. We have Ross Brawn, Bob Bell, Geoff Willis, Aldo Costa, and Nick Fry; plus two great drivers. Let's see what they can make out of next season with Willis and Costa in full gear and maximum impact on the car. Here's hope :up:

Edited by Kingshark, 20 July 2012 - 02:23.


#578 packapoo

packapoo
  • Member

  • 731 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 20 July 2012 - 04:00

Aldo Costa was the head designer of the Ferrari cars between 2007 - 2011 and was also Rory Byrne's assistant in the Ferrari days before that. And Geoff Willis was the chief designer of the 2004 BAR. Mercedes have do have a lot of potential in our technical director team. We have Ross Brawn, Bob Bell, Geoff Willis, Aldo Costa, and Nick Fry; plus two great drivers. Let's see what they can make out of next season with Willis and Costa in full gear and maximum impact on the car. Here's hope :up:


Aahhh. Now I've figured it.
All the illustrious.....
Ever heard the saying that 'Too Many Cooks............'?

#579 KiloWatt

KiloWatt
  • Member

  • 1,178 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 20 July 2012 - 04:46

Aahhh. Now I've figured it.
All the illustrious.....
Ever heard the saying that 'Too Many Cooks............'?


I'm really tiring of this. There's no evidence that any of that is going on. They got the best people that they could get. What did you want them to do, get less capable people for the sake of not upsetting any egos? That's just rediculous. I would like to catagorically challenge anyone to come up with solid evidence that this problem exists within this team.

This year, it's like every problem the team has get's blamed on this. Why?

Advertisement

#580 Vesuvius

Vesuvius
  • Member

  • 5,807 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 20 July 2012 - 04:52

Aldo Costa was the head designer of the Ferrari cars between 2007 - 2011 and was also Rory Byrne's assistant in the Ferrari days before that. And Geoff Willis was the chief designer of the 2004 BAR. Mercedes have do have a lot of potential in our technical director team. We have Ross Brawn, Bob Bell, Geoff Willis, Aldo Costa, and Nick Fry; plus two great drivers. Let's see what they can make out of next season with Willis and Costa in full gear and maximum impact on the car. Here's hope :up:


Geoff Willis was also a big name at Red Bull, he did 2009 together with Adrian Newey bring Red Bull to the top.

#581 Vesuvius

Vesuvius
  • Member

  • 5,807 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 20 July 2012 - 04:55

Posted Image
Posted Image
Nothing new.



Adrian Newey said it's not the most important what parts you see on the outside of the car but what's is inside the hood is that matters! :)

#582 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 20 July 2012 - 05:16

Exactly. Costa and Willis have had minimal impact on the current car. The W04 is the first car which will bare the fruit, from the beginning, of the trio combined. That's why Schumacher will probably stay, and why they must fight for the championship next year.

Put it differently, aren't you implying then that the car before them known as mark W03 contains a fundamental design flaw they cannot improve upon through incremental changes for the balance of the year? But then, maybe they will put on some tuning car require, maybe it was tires which needed improve, and combined with little help of mother luck we could see better days ahead. With some fairness, Hamilton and Button too seems to think that their car is probably OK, but race setup neeeds to be worked on. But, it's fun to speculate meanwhile under cover of our privacy.

Edited by Sakae, 20 July 2012 - 05:17.


#583 Kingshark

Kingshark
  • Member

  • 2,944 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 20 July 2012 - 08:17

http://www.weatherci.../de/hockenheim/

Hockenheim on Sunday looks to be sunny, dry, but thankfully rather cool. A maximum temperature through the day of 23°C. That's colder than it was in China. Not too mention that new Hockenheim is a circuit all about traction and downforce has very little play. I'm carefully optimistic. :up:

Also interesting is that while the temperature on Saturday will also likely be no higher than 23°C there's a chance of rain during qualifying. Let's see if Michael can pull off a bit of that old magic!

Edited by Kingshark, 20 July 2012 - 08:18.


#584 Massa_f1

Massa_f1
  • Member

  • 3,307 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 20 July 2012 - 08:23

BMW 2008 springs to mind when i think of Mercedes and this season. I think if they struggle this weekend it is over for them. If i was Nico i would be non to happy about it. Better car and updates may of allowed him to go for the title. That looks all but gone now, because of developments from other teams, and Mercedes lack of development.

#585 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 20 July 2012 - 08:46

Put it differently, aren't you implying then that the car before them known as mark W03 contains a fundamental design flaw they cannot improve upon through incremental changes for the balance of the year?

Yeah, looking from where Ferrari started this year and where they are now. Make you think. And they don't have Bob Bell, Geoff Willis, Aldo Costa.

#586 Igorr

Igorr
  • Member

  • 222 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 20 July 2012 - 08:50

you cannot compare mercs budget with the one that ferrari has.

#587 Kingshark

Kingshark
  • Member

  • 2,944 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 20 July 2012 - 08:58

you cannot compare mercs budget with the one that ferrari has.

Are you serious? Perhaps Ferrari has a few million bucks more, but Mercedes aren't exactly poor, are they?

It's obvious that no auto-manufacturing giant like Mercedes are going to enter Formula 1 without huge financial backing to begin with. Mercedes practically sponsor themselves, and they have hundred-million dollar deals with AMG and Petronas. Lack of money should be the last excuse for not performing in Mercedes's case.

Edited by Kingshark, 20 July 2012 - 09:06.


#588 RedBaron

RedBaron
  • Member

  • 2,767 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 20 July 2012 - 09:00

Budget doesn't limit creativity. Look at that Lotus...

#589 george1981

george1981
  • Member

  • 714 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 20 July 2012 - 09:18

Judging by recent comments from Ross Brawn, they think the key to unlocking the tyres is not downforce but something else. Lotus is proofing that to quite an extent.

Whereas at RedBull, Mclaren and Ferrari, there seems to be a relentless pursuit of downforce.
Button today:

Two schools of thought it seems.
Who's right?


They were saying on sky a few races ago that with the current tyres the more downforce you have the more energy you put through the tyres which also causes problems. My understanding was having less downforce causes issues with the tyres, to much sliding etc. whereas having more downforce puts more energy into the tyre thermally degrading it.

#590 walkindude

walkindude
  • Member

  • 867 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 20 July 2012 - 09:25

Its strange that they are concentrating on understanding tyres yet Ferrari and RedBull have a much better understanding along with coming up with so many aero upgrades.

#591 Igorr

Igorr
  • Member

  • 222 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 20 July 2012 - 09:48

Budget doesn't limit creativity. Look at that Lotus...


id say that we need to give more time because costa and bell dare still fresh within the team, and it needs more time in order to start implementing their ideas on the car. The design team that was onboard before these guys were the people that used to work in BAR, no need to say more. Those guys managed to get a good car only with huge budget.
I don't know who works at Lotus, but if you compare them to last year, they were only strong in the earlier part of the season, when they got 2 podiums. They still had a very strong car, but their development during the season was very very weak compared to the other top teams.

#592 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 20 July 2012 - 09:52

Alonso thinks (ref. last interview) that RBR has on hands superior machinery. If so, than they must be doing something right. I think Mercedes's people know that too, thus I wonder what is Ross up to?

#593 eREr

eREr
  • Member

  • 476 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 20 July 2012 - 09:53

They still had a very strong car, but their development during the season was very very weak compared to the other top teams.

Because of FEE which was a dead end, it was not possible to develop further. This year is a different story (like 2010 was).

#594 ViMaMo

ViMaMo
  • Member

  • 5,022 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 20 July 2012 - 10:27

Merc has certain budget for F1, its a limited investment for a period of time. They cant afford to spend mega bucks like Mclaren or Ferrari without dissident in their board rooms.

#595 mschumacher7

mschumacher7
  • Member

  • 54 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 20 July 2012 - 14:23

Rosberg taking a new gearbox?

#596 SuperDaan

SuperDaan
  • Member

  • 342 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 20 July 2012 - 14:54

Yes looks like it:

Adam Cooper ‏@adamcooperf1

#F1 Nico Rosberg joins Romain Grosjean in getting a five-place grid penalty for a gearbox change

#597 MSchumi

MSchumi
  • Member

  • 47 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 20 July 2012 - 17:15

Too much sitting in the box for M Schumacher. Mercedes has been doing this on a consistent basis. Rosberg always runs more in free practice, don't know why the team insists on Schumi simply waiting in the box. Especially in conditions like today - makes no sense to sit out the entire middle part of the session as track conditions improved massively every lap - only to go out when it gets worse again... :well:

#598 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,646 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 20 July 2012 - 17:36

Too much sitting in the box for M Schumacher. Mercedes has been doing this on a consistent basis. Rosberg always runs more in free practice, don't know why the team insists on Schumi simply waiting in the box. Especially in conditions like today - makes no sense to sit out the entire middle part of the session as track conditions improved massively every lap - only to go out when it gets worse again... :well:


No offence meant, but that is totally an outsider fan's point of view. I certainly understand your frustration if you have been watching the FP's live, but what is the added value of running in FP under the given circumstances? Predicted weather is(was) rain throughout FP1, FP2 FP3, Qualy, and then a (presumably) dry race. In wet conditions, MS, has nothing to prove. If they have any upgrades, it has absolutely no meaning to test it in the wet. In the few outings MS had, he jumped to lead from his second or third lap. From the pov of the team, testing anything apart from wet setups is totally meaningless. Those setups are(should) be a given from last race-weekend in Silverstone. Rosberg was running more because he was beaten in the wet by MS, and consistently so. He needed to explore more. MS had not. MS is confident of what he can do in the wet, and is presumably satisfied with the setup on his car. I hardly think the team would restraint MS from running more than they think is necessary.


#599 Lamag

Lamag
  • Member

  • 987 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 20 July 2012 - 19:53

Michael on the Wall, Rosberg five place penalty :s

Forrest Gump have something to say about it.


Advertisement

#600 packapoo

packapoo
  • Member

  • 731 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 20 July 2012 - 20:47

I'm really tiring of this. There's no evidence that any of that is going on. They got the best people that they could get. What did you want them to do, get less capable people for the sake of not upsetting any egos? That's just rediculous. I would like to catagorically challenge anyone to come up with solid evidence that this problem exists within this team.

This year, it's like every problem the team has get's blamed on this. Why?


You could have just said you didn't get the bit about the cooks you know. :wave:

'They got the best people that they could get' - and they are a pretty impressive bunch; for what purpose though?

Mercedes certainly is getting banged for their buck - has to stop sometime.
Maybe we have the reason for Mercs reported non-signing of the CA. Don't need to sign because not going to be here. CA expired, withdrawal penalties gone too.