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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#651 Jejking

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 14:20

I think he should focus on that(to take second Ferrari seat for next year). Will be a big thing for Ferrari. MS and Alonso in one team. Mercedes is dead horse as I said before. Even Ross is not the same anymore.

I'm really starting to wonder about an interview from Herbert with Schumacher I spotted this morning, really recent. I watched it on my phone, i'll try to retrieve it in a moment. But the weird thing that Schumacher really says: i'm not trying to put oil on the fire. Too late, with that he got the pot boiling. I think a move to another team is in the making.

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#652 Sakae

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 14:21

I think that Mercedes along with BMW do make most likely best road car in the world without much competition, but in here, boys and girls, I think we are done for 2012 and all practical purposes. I might be shortsighted, and I wish I would, but I do not see that light end of tunnel. This makes me worrisom, and whilst some might be talking about more time is needed, opposition at home might ride the wave, I fear.

Edited by Sakae, 22 July 2012 - 14:22.


#653 Sof1

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 14:28

It would be great for Schumi to move back to Ferrari but i doubt this will ever happen while Alonso is there. Its either Schumi has to play 2nd to Alo and Schumi will never accept nor will Ferrari dare ask that from him. Also it would not be fair to Alonso to have Schumacher back on equal status with him.

Basically not gonna happen.

#654 Jejking

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 14:30

That's what I realize as well and that's what makes the interview even stranger.

#655 Poep

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 14:35

It would be great for Schumi to move back to Ferrari but i doubt this will ever happen while Alonso is there. Its either Schumi has to play 2nd to Alo and Schumi will never accept nor will Ferrari dare ask that from him. Also it would not be fair to Alonso to have Schumacher back on equal status with him.

Basically not gonna happen.

It will also be technically difficult, since the car is designed to suit Alonso's driving style (since he is the declared nr. 1 in the team). They would have to change their design filosophy.

Edited by Poep, 22 July 2012 - 14:35.


#656 schumaster

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 14:43

That's what I realize as well and that's what makes the interview even stranger.


What was the interview about?

#657 MSchumi

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 14:44

Today's race confirms what I already said: Mercedes are 6th fastest in race condition behind Ferrari, Red Bull, Lotus, McLaren and Sauber, with Force India and Williams on roughly the same level.

#658 ivand911

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 16:27

Mercedes admits that car is too slow
http://www.gpupdate....ar-is-too-slow/

I am really not looking forward to Hungary.

Edited by ivand911, 22 July 2012 - 16:31.


#659 Kingshark

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 00:42

Damn, amazing how far Mercedes have fallen behind in development rate. At least they were quick in qualifying until Bahrain. Ever since they've been dreadful apart from Monaco.

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#660 black magic

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 06:11

well sadly was what I feared.

germany easy to overtake without drs let alone with t.

mercedes/ brawn continue a theme of rel poor development during a season - reflects rel lack of spending.

in fairness though what of tyres. kimi overtook michael despite michael being on fresh soft and supposedly the faster tyre.

its not even like their pitstops are the talk of the circuit - and that costs nothing.

sorry but all in all - just not good enough.

and not likely to improve

#661 Fildischum

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 06:15

hi all,

im a long time michael fan. it hurts to see him race like this. the car was just to slow especially on heavy fuels. im feeling hopeless now.

#662 ivand911

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 06:35

in fairness though what of tyres. kimi overtook michael despite michael being on fresh soft and supposedly the faster tyre.

About that ,this was MS mistake. He outbrake himself(he went to deep) and he just gifted it to Kimi. More or less. It was question of time to happen really.
But, still Lotus is more than 0,5 sec faster usually.


#663 walkindude

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 07:19

So much for Brawn's "We will concentrate on the tyres and not aero developments" mantra.Has this car been upgraded at all since the first race?

#664 ivand911

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 07:29

So much for Brawn's "We will concentrate on the tyres and not aero developments" mantra.Has this car been upgraded at all since the first race?

Yes, in Monaco. They say. After that they get rid of FW cascade. And now they are focusing on next year.

Edited by ivand911, 23 July 2012 - 07:31.


#665 MSchumi

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 08:54

its not even like their pitstops are the talk of the circuit - and that costs nothing.

Interesting that you should mention that. I have noticed 4s pitstops slipping in recently. That is something everyone except perhaps HRT can achieve. Last year they were at least known to be one the fastest in the pits.
Certainly even a few extra tenths in the pitstops would have helped Schumacher's case against Perez.


#666 Pits

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 09:10

I think the bad showing of Merc in Hockenheim was all down to the tires beeing out of the window. You could see it wright after the start, Schumacher was fast and got heat in the tires quickly. I think he just overheat them in one or two laps and then lost pace instantly.

Track temp was something like 32 degrees, a lot hotter then the Friday and Saturday, this made some cars look great while others looked terrible.
It's no excuse, but the Merc isn't as slow as it seems, I'm sure...

#667 rt99

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:09

So much for Brawn's "We will concentrate on the tyres and not aero developments" mantra. Has this car been upgraded at all since the first race?


Yes.
major updates at Monaco, including lighter gearbox, causing Ross and Nico to declare they had the best car that weekend. Pole for Michael 2nd place for Nico speaks for itself.

Edited by rt99, 23 July 2012 - 10:10.


#668 ivand911

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:14

Yes.
major updates at Monaco, including lighter gearbox, causing Ross and Nico to declare they had the best car that weekend. Pole for Michael 2nd place for Nico speaks for itself.

I am pretty sure car would be good there even without this updates. As is was in China. Carbon gearbox give Nico his 5 places penalty.


#669 Sakae

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:15

Was a three-stopper a strategic blunder as some are suggesting? This track has reasonable IN&OUT, thus I would consider it as a normal call, but nothing much out of ordinary. It appears that some cars however can handle two stoppers well enough to fend off marginally faster car, if you follow close enough.

#670 rt99

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:18

I think that Mercedes along with BMW do make most likely best road car in the world without much competition,


Depends what you call the best car, in what market and what you call roads.
Volkswagen and Honda are not only competition, they have produced many award winning and top selling cars in the small end of the market over the years.
You're near the truth though, if you're talking about Autobahns.


#671 Diablobb81

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:19

I don't believe Merc could have pulled off a two stopper and end up in the top 10.

Tire management was horrible.

#672 rt99

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:02



For all the people suggesting they would like to see Michael back at Ferrari, IMO he wouldn't get that much closer to Alonso than Massa does, due to their differing styles and Ferrari being a different team to the one built around him. Not only that, I think Alonso has adapted to rule changes and car changes better than Michael has in his career.
It could be that having another well thought of German at Merc is damaging his chances?
Lets not forget how much Massa contributed to Ferrari as Michael's team mate, as a clear number two how close Massa could stick to Michael in the same car (8 podiums in 2006 and 2 wins ,with michael finishing near the top in both of those)
Massa seems tailor made for Michael's style and way of leading a team, with Aldo Costa teaming up again it could be like the old days, Michael just needs the right team mate, and as a clear number 2.

I wish people wouldn't keep bashing Merc. This team won the world championship before the name change, had one of the better cars at the start of season, they've brought more proven winers on board, its a mater of fine tuning.

#673 Sakae

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:13

I wish people wouldn't keep bashing Merc. This team won the world championship before the name change, had one of the better cars at the start of season, they've brought more proven winers on board, its a mater of fine tuning.

Agree. Too many significant changes under RRA guidelines, and I would understand that performance dip last year. This year however I am seeing life at former Renault (now Lotus), and cannot help asking why is it possible there, and not in here..? I am hesitant to start guessing if Lotus is a faster or a better car, but surely they seems have better grip over handling those stupid tires Hembery brought in.

Edited by Sakae, 23 July 2012 - 11:13.


#674 eoin

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:24

Car is just an irritatingly slow tyre muncher. :(


The car is probably closer to the top teams than most of us would of thought it's just that the top teams are very close. For whatever reason China seems to suit Mercedes, especially Rosberg, which gave people the false impression that Mercedes was going to be a threat this year. Monaco should never be used as a barometer of a cars performance as it's such a unique circuit. Outside of those two races the car hasn't looked like a podium car. It's a decent car but it doesn't push the boundaries on any front.

Edited by eoin, 23 July 2012 - 12:24.


#675 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:43

I'm sure most people agree that the main reason for frustration is that the likes of Sauber and Williams have done such a great job, especially the former. So despite MGP's progress, the feeling is they are lower down on the power scale.

#676 Spa95

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:57

Sky Germany:

Nico said they got a new aero chief but no name was mentioned (have I missed something?)
He also stated they fell back in the development race and are in a bad period at the moment and the upgrades are coming later in comparison to other teams.

It's Mike Elliot from Lotus - according to Motorsport Total: http://www.motorspor...g_12072318.html

*Edit: Looks like ScarbsF1 already tweeted that name at the end of May.

Edited by Spa95, 23 July 2012 - 13:01.


#677 Timstr11

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 13:10

It's Mike Elliot from Lotus - according to Motorsport Total: http://www.motorspor...g_12072318.html

*Edit: Looks like ScarbsF1 already tweeted that name at the end of May.

https://twitter.com/...668477946265601

In his last role (till November 2011) he was senior aerodynamicist at Lotus Renault F1.

This means he will have intimate knowledge of Lotus's aerodynamics which explains some of their low tyre usage.

If he's served the customary 6-month gardening leave, it would mean he started this month.

Edited by Timstr11, 23 July 2012 - 13:11.


#678 Szoelloe

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 13:13

https://twitter.com/...668477946265601

In his last role (till November 2011) he was senior aerodynamicist at Lotus Renault F1.

This means he will have intimate knowledge of Lotus's aerodynamics which explains some of their low tyre usage.

If he's served the customary 6-month gardening leave, it would mean he started this month.


Doesn't that explain to an extent the halted development? Mech developments seemed to be coming.


#679 ivand911

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 13:23

I'm sure most people agree that the main reason for frustration is that the likes of Sauber and Williams have done such a great job, especially the former. So despite MGP's progress, the feeling is they are lower down on the power scale.

I think Williams is even faster than Sauber. They just can't show it. Maldonado I mean, he have bad last 3-4 races. Of course this is good for MS.

I don't agree that car was better at the start of the season. I have to check the data(lap times comparing to others), but I think MS was still eating tyres in Australia and he was going backwards. Alonso was all over him. Nothing different from Germany or Silverstone. At least he is finishing now.

Lets hope the new guy/s will do something before the season end, so MGP drivers can keep up with leaders pace.

Other teams proved it is possible to change car from one race to the next. Complete performance change.
Like Ferrari from Bahrain to Spain. McLaren ,from Silverstone to Germany. I expected all TD to make big impact on car behavior. Even Costa is 7-8 months in the team now. They should resolve car weakness until now.

What do you expect for Hungary? Updates? I am positive that for 2,5 years , that team have made the smallest number of updates bar from new teams. I really don't know what MGP guys working in Brackley are doing. They sure have to much free time. And when busy they still do nothing.

Edited by ivand911, 23 July 2012 - 13:47.


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#680 jav

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 13:41

I've been quiet and was relatively upbeat about the car and the new team at the start of the season. They seemd to be in the mix and it looked like the tires were the great unpredictable equalizer making it hard to understand where cars really were in the pecking order.

Now- I'm agreement with Ivan- This car and team have gone backwards relative to the field yet again. Explanations are being shown as excuses with other (supposedly lesser) teams doing a better job under the same circumstances. Where's the benefit to all the big names? And don't say it takes time... every year that's the excuse and in the time they have been given, they went mostly backwards. Fans, priciples and sponsors need real hope, and the results to substantiate continued hope for better. Brawn needs to stop humbly stating the obvious and get to directing and demanding a turn around.

Sad state of affairs for such a significant marque. Ferrari looked MUCH worse than Mercedes at the start. Now Mercedes doesn't seem in the same league.

Edited by jav, 23 July 2012 - 13:45.


#681 sharo

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 13:45

They should make a small tweak in the name - Mercedes OMG Petronas :)

#682 ivand911

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 13:51

MERCEDES AMG PETRONAS
2012 German Grand Prix
Hockenheim
Sunday, 22 July 2012

Raceday

Michael Schumacher and Nico Rosberg finished the German Grand Prix in seventh and tenth places respectively on Sunday.

Michael made three pit stops this afternoon on laps 14, 36 and 52, running option/option/prime/option

Nico also ran a three-stop strategy, stopping on laps 12, 32 and 50 and choosing prime/option/option/option

With fresh tyres in the final laps, Michael set the team's second fastest lap in three races in 1:18.725


Michael Schumacher
There are nicer ways to finish a home race than falling back from third to seventh place. I squeezed everything I could out of the car but, unfortunately, that's everything we could manage today. It's a pity because I would have loved to have given something more to all our Mercedes-Benz colleagues who were supporting us today. Before this weekend, we expected to be racing between P5 and P7, and of course fifth place would have been the better option, but seventh was our maximum in these circumstances. I got a decent start and the short battle with Sebastian was fun. After that, unfortunately, there weren't too many highlights, apart from setting the fastest lap, perhaps. However, we couldn't maintain that pace for very long. Now we have to look forwards and do our maximum at the next race.

Nico Rosberg
It feels ok to have scored one point today after such a bad qualifying yesterday and starting right at the back. We had a good strategy and I had great fun out there at times overtaking so many people to move from 21st to 10th place. Some of the guys I had to overtake a couple of times and there were some nice manoeuvres. Thanks to our fans here in Hockenheim for their fantastic support, even though the weekend didn’t really run to plan. Now I look forward to Budapest in just seven days and hope for a better weekend, and we will keep working very hard towards this.

Ross Brawn
We ran the race as well as we could today, in the knowledge that we would have to make three pit stops. Some of our rivals on two-stop strategies faded towards the end but the drop-off was not sufficient for our drivers to be able to take advantage on fresher tyres. Michael and Nico put in consistent performances, pulled off good overtaking moves and we delivered six clean pit stops. Our strategy enabled Nico to climb eleven positions from his starting place, while Michael finished in seventh place for the second time in two weeks. We made the right decisions this afternoon but, after 67 laps, Michael found himself 29 seconds behind the winner. That shows we need to find more pace from the car.

Norbert Haug
Of course it is not pleasant starting third and coming home seventh. We were convinced that a three-stop strategy would be the fastest race for us, and we will evaluate whether a two-stop strategy could have brought us more. In any case, a podium was out of reach for us today and we certainly need further improvements. Nico put in a great drive, gaining 11 places from 21st to 10th. Like in Silverstone, our best-placed car came home roughly 30 seconds behind the winner, so we are missing about half a second per lap. We are now looking forward to doing a better job next weekend at the Hungarian Grand Prix.

Drivers Car No Chassis No Race Results / Fastest Lap
Michael Schumacher 7 F1 W03 / 09 P7 1:18.725
Nico Rosberg 8 F1 W03 / 07 P10 1:19.105


Isn't it little to late?? After the race to evaluate two-stopper? So, amateurish. I hope he is kidding! At least drivers have new chassis(Nico since Silverstone, Michael since Germany ).

Edited by ivand911, 23 July 2012 - 14:06.


#683 Diablobb81

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 13:57

Isn't it little to late?? After the race to evaluate two-stopper? So, amateurish. I hope he is kidding! At least drivers have new chassis.


That's PR talk from Haug. What do you want him to say : "we only took a 3-stop into consideration because our car eats tires for breakfast, lunch and dinner"? This wasn't bad strategy it was a bad car.

Look at Brawn : "We ran the race as well as we could today, in the knowledge that we would have to make three pit stops."

The car isn't slow but if they don't manage to improve the extremely tight operating window nothing will work.

Every quali, every race we hear about a set of tires or more not working. It might be that Pirelli wants to screw Michael (and Nico) or it might be that the car again has a fundamental problem.

Edited by Diablobb81, 23 July 2012 - 14:00.


#684 ivand911

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 14:10

Every quali, every race we hear about a set of tires or more not working. It might be that Pirelli wants to screw Michael (and Nico) or it might be that the car again has a fundamental problem.

Impossibility to work with 2012 tyres is fundamental problem I think. Other possibility is that car is too heavy. They need to lose weight. DDRS?



#685 FlashMaster

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 14:28

Impossibility to work with 2012 tyres is fundamental problem I think. Other possibility is that car is too heavy. They need to lose weight. DDRS?


Wrong setup? Maybe they're always too aggressive with the tyre setup (camber? pressure too high?). You could see in MS last stint that the temperature was right there after he left the pits.

#686 Sakae

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 14:50

Isn't it little to late?? After the race to evaluate two-stopper? So, amateurish. I hope he is kidding! At least drivers have new chassis(Nico since Silverstone, Michael since Germany ).

I think that you are wrong. Mr. Haug is correctly IMO assessing need for understanding nuances of and causes behind yesterday's results. It's known in automotive industry as "LL". (Lessons Learned).

Edited by Sakae, 24 July 2012 - 05:07.


#687 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 18:07

Mercedes keep creating false hope for their fans it's a shame really because I thought this year it would be different. I feel for Schumacher because he's driving very well now but the car isn't just up to the required standard.

#688 packapoo

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 04:59

Some of those illustrious signings must be starting to pucker a bit - wishing they'd stayed put.
Big Board decision can't be too far off.

#689 ivand911

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 14:00

Mercedes admits it needs to find half a second of extra pace
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/101469

Half second is easily found in tyre performance.

#690 FlashMaster

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 15:04

JA: German GP shows who's getting on top of the tyre 'lottery'

http://www.jamesalle...e-tyre-lottery/

"Schumacher tried it but the Mercedes’ continued roughness on rear tyres meant that he ended up having to make a third stop which cost him fifth place. He was also hamstrung by having only one new set of medium tyres for the race."

#691 GoRacing

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 17:24

JA: German GP shows who's getting on top of the tyre 'lottery'

http://www.jamesalle...e-tyre-lottery/

"Schumacher tried it but the Mercedes’ continued roughness on rear tyres meant that he ended up having to make a third stop which cost him fifth place. He was also hamstrung by having only one new set of medium tyres for the race."


That's why it makes it so difficult to comprehend why they sent MS out on another set of medium tyres at the end of Q1. Ridiculous! School boy error, actually, even school boys would not make this type of mistake. Pathetic.

#692 ivand911

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 17:46

That's why it makes it so difficult to comprehend why they sent MS out on another set of medium tyres at the end of Q1. Ridiculous! School boy error, actually, even school boys would not make this type of mistake. Pathetic.

It is a mess.


#693 BetaVersion

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 00:54

Gonna make a prediction for race pace in Hungaroring, 6th fastest with some half second per lap to the frontrunners

#694 Wingcommander

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 07:05

Gonna predict that Sauber takes 5th place in the WCC this year. Provided their drivers stop messing things up.

I wonder for how long will Mercedes (the germans) keep tolerating the lack of results? For two years they were the 4th team, and always concentrating on the next year. Now Lotus have passed them and even the midfielders with much smaller resources are proving to be troublesome.

#695 black magic

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 07:12

in fairness to them this is using tyres where the soft are actually also slower as well as less durable than the harder compound.

#696 handel

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 07:23

On the pit radio merc were asking for 'a 25m lift and coast' and 'a 25m lift but it doesn't have to be much'

I understand why you would employ lift and coast if your brakes were done but you would do it for a few laps and consistently. Surely a single instance doesn't have much effect. Any idea why they would give this instruction?

#697 F.M.

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 07:31

On the pit radio merc were asking for 'a 25m lift and coast' and 'a 25m lift but it doesn't have to be much'

I understand why you would employ lift and coast if your brakes were done but you would do it for a few laps and consistently. Surely a single instance doesn't have much effect. Any idea why they would give this instruction?

They just needed to save a bit of fuel

#698 Diablobb81

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 07:33

On the pit radio merc were asking for 'a 25m lift and coast' and 'a 25m lift but it doesn't have to be much'

I understand why you would employ lift and coast if your brakes were done but you would do it for a few laps and consistently. Surely a single instance doesn't have much effect. Any idea why they would give this instruction?

They did a lot of fuel saving during the race.

No pace to fight with the top teams, no tire management to fight with the upper midfield.

I believe unless a major upgrade comes (maybe suspension, exhaust) they are done for this year. Learning the tires and just changing setup doesn't seem to work.

#699 Pits

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 07:34

On the pit radio merc were asking for 'a 25m lift and coast' and 'a 25m lift but it doesn't have to be much'

I understand why you would employ lift and coast if your brakes were done but you would do it for a few laps and consistently. Surely a single instance doesn't have much effect. Any idea why they would give this instruction?


Well, Schumacher said in an interview that he had to save the tires and the fuel. So that could be the reason...
That would also mean that the car's potential is a little bit higher than we saw in Hockenheim, if it's fueled correctly.

But I think the coasting was to lower the the temp in the tires, he was overheating in Hockenheim.

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#700 ivand911

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 08:47

But I think the coasting was to lower the the temp in the tires, he was overheating in Hockenheim.

And what will happen when it is hot? In Germany track temps were 30-35? I don't know how Sauber for third year is building car gentle to the tyres and MGP for 3rd year is building tyre eater.