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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#701 ivand911

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 12:24

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Update alert.
No ,it was there in Germany:
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No news then with FW.

Edited by ivand911, 26 July 2012 - 13:09.


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#702 Pits

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 12:40

And what will happen when it is hot? In Germany track temps were 30-35? I don't know how Sauber for third year is building car gentle to the tyres and MGP for 3rd year is building tyre eater.


Well the Merc will probably overheat in Budapest also, alto it makes a big difference if they have the same temp/weather from friday to sunday.
Than they can work towards the race instead of gambling, they might just pull it of and have a good race here.

#703 ivand911

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 12:50

German Grand Prix: Underlying Pace; the numbers
http://intelligentf1...ce-the-numbers/

Michael Schumacher (Mercedes): Soft +0.5s, Medium +0.5s. I hear that Norbert Haug said Mercedes need to find half a second. I agree!

Nico Rosberg (Mercedes): Soft +0.6s, Medium +1.0s. I have no idea why Rosberg was slower on the medium tyres. One of the rare occurrences where he is the slower Mercedes driver.


I doubt this numbers.

Edited by ivand911, 26 July 2012 - 12:51.


#704 rog

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 15:42

Pathetic 3-stop strategy cost both drivers 1-2 places. We can see the usual procedure from Mercedes, they can't compete in development pace with some others teams during a season. So I don't expect miracles for the rest of the season. Maybe in Monza or Spa or in a wet race they can shine, that's it.

Edited by rog, 26 July 2012 - 15:42.


#705 BetaVersion

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 19:07

German Grand Prix: Underlying Pace; the numbers
http://intelligentf1...ce-the-numbers/


I doubt this numbers.


"rare ocasions where Nico was the slowest Merc driver"?

Maybe they should change their url to dumbf1.worldpress.com

There are lot's of small changes in fw btw, not that I expect it to make such an impact, anyway

Edited by BetaVersion, 26 July 2012 - 19:09.


#706 Urawa

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 19:19

AMuS says no new developments before the summer break.
Brawn told them the next upgrade has to be spot on to catch up the lost ground.

#707 ivand911

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 20:12

AMuS says no new developments before the summer break.
Brawn told them the next upgrade has to be spot on to catch up the lost ground.

I expect C version of the car at Spa or it is game over. I hope they focus everything on it.

Edited by ivand911, 26 July 2012 - 20:13.


#708 Longtimefan

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 20:54

I expect C version of the car at Spa or it is game over. I hope they focus everything on it.


I'm thinking they should call it a day and pull the plug on the team. They'll never make any decent steps towards the front, they are wasting Michael's talent on this POS car. Everyone else gets upgrades but us, we're still having the same temperature and tyre problems we were having 2 seasons ago.

Our hopes get dashed time after time and its really come to something when you are hoping for 3-4 of the top cars to drop out or tangle just so we can scrape a podium.

it really is pitiful and all my faith and confidence in Merc and Ross has evaporated.

Its just pain race after race with no hope.

Edited by Longtimefan, 26 July 2012 - 20:54.


#709 ali_M

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 21:50

I'm thinking they should call it a day and pull the plug on the team. They'll never make any decent steps towards the front, they are wasting Michael's talent on this POS car. Everyone else gets upgrades but us, we're still having the same temperature and tyre problems we were having 2 seasons ago.

Our hopes get dashed time after time and its really come to something when you are hoping for 3-4 of the top cars to drop out or tangle just so we can scrape a podium.

it really is pitiful and all my faith and confidence in Merc and Ross has evaporated.

Its just pain race after race with no hope.


Michael is saying that if one looks deeper there's steady progress being made. I'm putting my faith in that. I don't think it's just lip service. He's not one for lip service of that nature.

#710 rog

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 22:32

Michael is saying that if one looks deeper there's steady progress being made. I'm putting my faith in that. I don't think it's just lip service. He's not one for lip service of that nature.



This is a typically marketing speech. Maybe there is some progress. If so, then it's not enough simple as that.

#711 Pits

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 23:59

This is a typically marketing speech. Maybe there is some progress. If so, then it's not enough simple as that.

Maybe it's not enough, but I don't support the team only when they are winning.
I believe in the technical people that are working there and I believe Michael en Nico can deliver.
This is the first year they have a comparebal team like the top four, and still Merc is smaller.
They should be able to improve a lot for next year, I would give them some time to build and make progress.

Edited by Pits, 27 July 2012 - 00:00.


#712 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:06

This is the first year they have a comparebal team like the top four, and still Merc is smaller.

That's interesting how two people who are viewing the same thing can see it differently. I thought that Mercedes is in second year after rather significant reduction of resources (in compliance with RRA), and significantly smaller in that regard than Ferrari, RBR, and McLaren. Definitely not comparable, methinks. Which is the fourth team you are reffering to?

Edited by Sakae, 27 July 2012 - 03:07.


#713 sharo

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 06:09

How about comparison to Sauber and Williams?

#714 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 06:39

From some unofficial gestimates floated around a few months back Mercedes had more finacial resources than most, slightly less than McLaren, and significantly down from where Ferrari and RBR were. My assumption was that budget was a target, as opposed to an absolute limitation.

#715 ivand911

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 06:48

Problem is not the lack of money. It is the management and the people who work there. I guess they are just not up to the top3 standards. Or even top5-6. Because at the moment on pure speed car is battling with FI and clearly behind Sauber and Williams. Last two have race pace of the leaders. They just lack the drivers. If MS was driving C31 or FW34 his fans would be having much better 2012 season and looking with optimism at every GP.

Edited by ivand911, 27 July 2012 - 06:53.


#716 Kingshark

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 07:03

Mercedes don't lack money, what they do lack however, is management and people who work at Mercedes.

IF (and it's becoming a big if) Mercedes are still in Formula One by 2013, I think they'll be much better with Aldo Costa and Geoff Willis working alongside Bob Bell. I think Mercedes need one more season, if they can't challenge for wins in 2013 then I believe that will be the last we'll see from the German manufacturer.

#717 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 07:20

Problem is not the lack of money. It is the management and the people who work there. I guess they are just not up to the top3 standards. Or even top5-6. Because at the moment on pure speed car is battling with FI and clearly behind Sauber and Williams. Last two have race pace of the leaders. They just lack the drivers. If MS was driving C31 or FW34 his fans would be having much better 2012 season and looking with optimism at every GP.

I have been responding to previous posts, but I do agree that money alone, whilst essential, will not make car better, if ideas are missing, or misplaced. I do not have any good understanding what's the problem there this year. I was, in my mind anyway, able to explain to myslef probable struggles Merc faced last year after reorganization, but not now. I still wonder if in some pockets reside resentments at personal level which could affect performance at the highest levels, but from where I sit it's really impossible to judge and pin point those things accurately.

I wish to add - maybe we are just impatient; there is possibility of it too.

Edited by Sakae, 27 July 2012 - 07:22.


#718 ivand911

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 07:27

I wish to add - maybe we are just impatient; there is possibility of it too.

No, after 2,5 years. And going backwards. When I have to dream about Sauber and Williams car, I know that I hit the bottom. Good news is, that there is only one way from there. To the basement. :lol:


#719 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 07:34

Everlasting optimist, aren't you.

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#720 ivand911

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 07:47

New jack?
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I hope this will improve pit stops.

#721 ali_M

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:28

No, after 2,5 years. And going backwards. When I have to dream about Sauber and Williams car, I know that I hit the bottom. Good news is, that there is only one way from there. To the basement. :lol:


I think that's a bit harsh. The MGP was definitely a step forward from last year. However, the Pirellis came. :eek:

#722 Pits

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:33

I think that's a bit harsh. The MGP was definitely a step forward from last year. However, the Pirellis came. :eek:


Exactly, Pirelli made it pretty random and changed the game not to the advantage of Merc ia.

#723 ivand911

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:24

Exactly, Pirelli made it pretty random and changed the game not to the advantage of Merc ia.

I don't think they changed it to anyone advantage. Strong teams are still on top. Merc just couldn't master it. Ferrari improved according Alonso by 3 sec? Merc stay at the same level as the start of the season and even lost some advantages they have. Other just caught them on cold weather and even beat them now.
Looking at today FP , all teams try to improve ,pushing hard. Always some new aero measuring devices on the cars. Flowviz. And Merc ?? Playing cool. Until we see this devices on W03 ,there wouldn't be improvement. CFD and computers will never give you real picture. Other teams are not stupid for using such aero devices and methods, only Merc is for not using it. Last race they lost it even before the weekend started. They lost it in the simulator, they come with 3 stopper idea and using softs tyres the most. This killed MS mediums in Q1 and his race afterwards. My head can't understand what they are doing in FPs? Do we have direction fins under the FW?
If it was me I wouldn't give opportunity to somebody like Sam Bird(or whoever is the simulator driver) to decide the race weekend.

Edited by ivand911, 27 July 2012 - 11:27.


#724 ali_M

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:44

I don't think they changed it to anyone advantage. Strong teams are still on top. Merc just couldn't master it. Ferrari improved according Alonso by 3 sec? Merc stay at the same level as the start of the season and even lost some advantages they have. Other just caught them on cold weather and even beat them now.
Looking at today FP , all teams try to improve ,pushing hard. Always some new aero measuring devices on the cars. Flowviz. And Merc ?? Playing cool. Until we see this devices on W03 ,there wouldn't be improvement. CFD and computers will never give you real picture. Other teams are not stupid for using such aero devices and methods, only Merc is for not using it. Last race they lost it even before the weekend started. They lost it in the simulator, they come with 3 stopper idea and using softs tyres the most. This killed MS mediums in Q1 and his race afterwards. My head can't understand what they are doing in FPs? Do we have direction fins under the FW?
If it was me I wouldn't give opportunity to somebody like Sam Bird(or whoever is the simulator driver) to decide the race weekend.


I don't see the point really of getting uptight about things you can only speculate about.... You don't know if the simulator driver is deciding a race weekend's format for MGP. You really don't know how they'd have done with a different tyre strategy. You don't have the data to make such a determination. You don't know Merc's current budgetary limitations among a lot of other things. You don't know their weaknesses with any meaningful precision to be making judgments on how they're trying to address them.

It's fierce competition and they have been improving the car. Ferrari have gained 2 to 3s per lap and are still not confident they're the quickest. MGP have remained there or thereabouts in terms of their relative performance. They're not doing as badly as it would seem, IMO. We'd love to see them win but the competition is indeed fierce with the usual suspects being the teams ahead or thereabouts at this point of the season.

#725 amppatel

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:41

Was there a new wing on MS's car? Looked very simple...

#726 ivand911

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:48

Was there a new wing on MS's car? Looked very simple...

Post 701. They have it from Germany.


#727 GoRacing

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:50

Going to be a tough qualifying and race, it seems like. Will be difficult to even get into Q3.

Edited by GoRacing, 27 July 2012 - 12:50.


#728 ivand911

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:51

Going to be a tough qualifying and race, it seems like. Will be difficult to even get into Q3.

I hope for some rain in race day. Or................


#729 Atonal

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:51

Has Rosberg done a soft tyre run?

#730 1Devil1

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 13:20

I really don't understand the strategy of Mercedes. After Monaco Nico was in such a good position in the wdc standings and they didn't bother to bring new updates.? They showed have brought frequently updates like the other top teams. Now they are falling apart. Even in practice they are one second slower than the top teams. I don't want to think about sunday. Top ten will be a difficult - i guess :rolleyes:

Edited by 1Devil1, 27 July 2012 - 14:15.


#731 rog

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 13:40

No surprise if they don't bring new updates. Every year the same. Either not competent enough or a lack of budget.

#732 1Devil1

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 13:52

But honestly if you try to be a top team you should act like one! You can hear every race weekend the same comments of Norbert and Ross. We are in a good position. We achieved our goals with the win of Nico and Michael podium finish. All nonsense and far away from the real picture. Mercedes is too slow, eat tires like hell, can't develop a car effective like Ferrari or RedBull. I can't see a good outcome for this weekend mostly because I fear the they will be lapped after the half race distance. I know it's only practice. We have to wait and see. But this team makes me sick :down:

#733 Szoelloe

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 13:56

But honestly if you try to be a top team you should act like one! You can hear every race weekend the same comments of Norbert and Ross. We are in a good position. We achieved our goals with the win of Nico and Michael podium finish. All nonsense and far away from the real picture. Mercedes is too slow, eat tires like hell, can't develop a car effective like Ferrari or RedBull. I can't see a good outcome for this weekend mostly because I fear the they will be lapped after the half race distance. I know it's only practice. We have to wait and see. But this team makes me sick :down:


it's only practice


#734 1Devil1

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 14:03

it's only practice


I know! I am always optimistic but I am losing faith in Mercedes and fear the worst for this weekend

#735 Urawa

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 14:18

Team-mate Nico Rosberg was 11th fastest, and the German conceded his car was not as strong as he was hoping ahead of the start of the weekend.

"It was a decent day of testing," he said. "Not a very promising day for us. I expected to be stronger. We tried some major things, especially on my car but it didn't really work out."


Think they could struggle for points this weekend.

#736 ali_M

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 14:33

I know! I am always optimistic but I am losing faith in Mercedes and fear the worst for this weekend


It's not easy seeing the same thing happening with Rossi and Ducati. Gee.... what the hell? :confused:

#737 Szoelloe

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 14:40

I know! I am always optimistic but I am losing faith in Mercedes and fear the worst for this weekend



Well, you can always decide not to. After all, it is not a matter of life or death. I understand the frustration floating around, and where else should you let off the steam than here. They have been fxxxed by Pirelli. Let's see if they can cope with it.

#738 rog

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 15:02

But honestly if you try to be a top team you should act like one! You can hear every race weekend the same comments of Norbert and Ross. We are in a good position. We achieved our goals with the win of Nico and Michael podium finish. All nonsense and far away from the real picture.



Yes but that's just their typical marketing speech. They surely know it better, but for the press we won't hear the truth. The real step backwards came in Barcelona, many teams brought bigger updates, not so Mercedes. At this stage the struggle was expected. Monaco was an expection and the Valencia podium resulted thanks to many failures from other teams/drivers. Surely nice to have that odd win finally, but look at the standings. Fifth place! Even Sauber can be a danger because they looked faster in race trim recently.

#739 jav

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 15:03

Even as far back as Brawn GP- this team has a history of losing ground as the season progresses. They are sub par on development. If Brawn had not dominated so completely early in 2009 with the DDD- they would not have won the championship. As it was- they started the season with a vastly superior car, by mid season, others had made bigger gains , and by seasons end- their car was no longer the best. The progressive decline appears endemic to this team.

This year I had renewed hope the car could be a winner and at least early on, there were signs of hope. But once again, development has not kept pace with the top teams. While some exceed expectations, Merc struggles to even meet them.

Unless this changes- the only way Merc will be top 3 worthy is if they introduce a dominant car from the start and hang on while others out develop them.

Edited by jav, 27 July 2012 - 15:06.


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#740 1Devil1

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 15:05

Well, you can always decide not to. After all, it is not a matter of life or death. I understand the frustration floating around, and where else should you let off the steam than here. They have been fxxxed by Pirelli. Let's see if they can cope with it.


Not Pirelli ****ed them - can't see that for sure !All teams got their act together and Mercedes is struggling time after time. In a away Pirelli helped them to get a lucky win in china. Mercedes found the right temperature window for the tires when others didn't and was able to hide their aerodynamic deficits. Mercedes is the one to blame

#741 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 15:31

Irrespective of score-board and variance in performance, Michael in one of his interviews expresses opinion that Mercedes has made progress. Well then, I am staying to see end of this movie.

#742 rog

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 15:43

Also worth mentioning the high amount of mistakes by the team itself this year. Several hydraulic defects, gear changes and pit stop mistakes recently and messed up strategies the last race and Schumachers failures earlier this year. I agree with jav, development pace was always a weak point for them. Apart from the failures the car had some pace at the beginning of this season, more in the Quali than in the race of course. But since Barcelona they lost obviously a lot of ground in that department because other teams did a better job in improving the car during the season.

Edited by rog, 27 July 2012 - 15:47.


#743 Szoelloe

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 16:16

Irrespective of score-board and variance in performance, Michael in one of his interviews expresses opinion that Mercedes has made progress. Well then, I am staying to see end of this movie.


Which is what we should all do. All this sxxt-throwing at Merc is a tad frustrating from people not being able to see the forest from the tree.


#744 1Devil1

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 17:13

Which is what we should all do. All this sxxt-throwing at Merc is a tad frustrating from people not being able to see the forest from the tree.


Michael is a member of the team. You will not hear from him that he is disappointed with the performance of Mercedes. We all know how gentle he is even after big setbacks - seeing this year reliability problems . He will not say in public that he believes that being with mercedes is like running in circles. After 2,5 years fans and media want to hear there is light at the end of the tunnel. But I am not sure if Michael really believes in a future progress of MAMG and we will know that fore sure if he stays or quiets at the end of 2012. I never was the pessimistic fan, but I fully can understand the most fans which lost hope in mercedes. Right now I include myself to this category

#745 Szoelloe

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 17:25

Michael is a member of the team. You will not hear from him that he is disappointed with the performance of Mercedes. We all know how gentle he is even after big setbacks - seeing this year reliability problems . He will not say in public that he believes that being with mercedes is like running in circles. After 2,5 years fans and media want to hear there is light at the end of the tunnel. But I am not sure if Michael really believes in a future progress of MAMG and we will know that fore sure if he stays or quiets at the end of 2012. I never was the pessimistic fan, but I fully can understand the most fans which lost hope in mercedes. Right now I include myself to this category


Although the quote mentioned MS, I was not referring to his comments


#746 Timstr11

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 18:48

An AMuS article says that the W03's (and Lotus's) development could be hampered due to the rules clarification on engine maps.
That is if Merc has planned to develop a coanda-type exhaust.
Coanda-type exhausts require and use modified engine maps that enhance the blowing effect for that type of exhaust.
The allowed 2.5% variation will not be enough to adapt the blowing.

Still, Ross sounded optimistic about gaining 0.4 sec after the summer break.


#747 jav

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 18:54

...Still, Ross sounded optimistic about gaining 0.4 sec after the summer break.


after admitting they are 0.5 seconds behind, being confident they'll still be behind seems a strange sentiment for optomism LOL ;)

#748 Szoelloe

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 19:46

An AMuS article says that the W03's (and Lotus's) development could be hampered due to the rules clarification on engine maps.
That is if Merc has planned to develop a coanda-type exhaust.
Coanda-type exhausts require and use modified engine maps that enhance the blowing effect for that type of exhaust.
The allowed 2.5% variation will not be enough to adapt the blowing.

Still, Ross sounded optimistic about gaining 0.4 sec after the summer break.


McLaren pioneered the Coanda-effect exhausts. They seem to do ok without the mapping allegedly required. I really don't know if Lotus had such an exhaust in its development plans, but I do not think it is that long a process to develop and implement one, as Sauber and Force India(?) has shown. So if there were plans, thee was plenty of time to design one, and implement it. I would rather suspect the opposite. Mc's fallback after the first few races seem to be down to reduced blow mapping, they had similar tyre problems to Merc. I would rather think that the halted development at Merc is more down to deciding wich way to go, I think they were waiting for this rule clarification, Mc ditto. There is something different coming through the pipeline from Merc, if this is true. AMuS, it seems has no insider info whatsoever from Merc, it is a shot in the dark, but in the wrong direction. I really don't envy the F1 journos this year, really. The amount of information seems to have decreased from every team, only the usual boring stuff ciculating everywhere, so everybody speculates. Which is fun here, on a BB, but hell in the editor's office. My two pence only, of course.

Edited by Szoelloe, 27 July 2012 - 19:48.


#749 BetaVersion

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 19:57

I don't think they changed it to anyone advantage. Strong teams are still on top. Merc just couldn't master it. Ferrari improved according Alonso by 3 sec? Merc stay at the same level as the start of the season and even lost some advantages they have. Other just caught them on cold weather and even beat them now.
Looking at today FP , all teams try to improve ,pushing hard. Always some new aero measuring devices on the cars. Flowviz. And Merc ?? Playing cool. Until we see this devices on W03 ,there wouldn't be improvement. CFD and computers will never give you real picture. Other teams are not stupid for using such aero devices and methods, only Merc is for not using it. Last race they lost it even before the weekend started. They lost it in the simulator, they come with 3 stopper idea and using softs tyres the most. This killed MS mediums in Q1 and his race afterwards. My head can't understand what they are doing in FPs? Do we have direction fins under the FW?
If it was me I wouldn't give opportunity to somebody like Sam Bird(or whoever is the simulator driver) to decide the race weekend.

This annoys me too. Sauber was measuring their diffuser flow in Germany, and they keeped evaluating new things on Hungary. I've never seen Mercedes using such devices. Mclaren also uses it, from time to time. Ferrari have flowviz all the time

#750 BigCHrome

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 20:02

Anyone else tired of Schumi crashing the car?

Anyway I agree, they should be ashamed of how bad the car is. Race pace is worse than everyone except Force India, TR and the new teams.