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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#851 kazimriz

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:23

After Belgium we will no doubt get the " We are shifting our focus to 2013. Then 6 races into next season they find another design problem and say the same again. :o

They should of been bringing up grades long before now. Even Sauber have been bringing regular updates to races. I think it is just embarrassing to be honest. I feel for both Rosberg and Schumacher. Both deserve better than what Mercedes have provided them for the past 2 and half seasons.


I feel sorry only for Rosberg. Everyone else has had their share of success. And by that some good ones. Rosberg, for no fault of his own, has ended up with Harvey Dent's Two Faces now.

Edited by kazimriz, 28 July 2012 - 21:24.


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#852 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:24

After Belgium we will no doubt get the " We are shifting our focus to 2013. Then 6 races into next season they find another design problem and say the same again. :o

They should of been bringing up grades long before now. Even Sauber have been bringing regular updates to races. I think it is just embarrassing to be honest. I feel for both Rosberg and Schumacher. Both deserve better than what Mercedes have provided them for the past 2 and half seasons.


I think that's gonna be the case indeed and how long before Dieter Zetsche pulls the plug on the whole thing..

#853 Szoelloe

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:25

Merc might do well to get rid off Schumacher this year. Get some new blood and energy in the team. This team is one of the oldest on the grid, by sheer numbers and age. Look at Schumacher, Brawn, Costa, Haug. Then look at Horner, Newey, Vettel.


well, everybody and the FIA are taking a close look at THEM just now. that is a disgusting idea. They are like a hotel trash bin after a Tour De France stint left the town, if you remember a few years ago.


#854 Schumacher7

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:27

http://www.auto-moto...en-5314479.html

Fundamental design flaw\issue reason for struggle.
Team unable to improve situation with current setup options and without rebuilding the car.

What does it say?

#855 kazimriz

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:27

well, everybody and the FIA are taking a close look at THEM just now. that is a disgusting idea. They are like a hotel trash bin after a Tour De France stint left the town, if you remember a few years ago.


Uhm, I dont think I understand your humour. And I dont think you understood mine. Let the FIA have a close look. Red Bull has won far many titles and races. They will still keep winning. And FIA will keep looking.

#856 race addicted

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:33

That sounds like arms and legs in the air, saying now the car has a design flaw! It's won a race, been fastest in qualifying and generally been very competitive.

#857 Szoelloe

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:34

Uhm, I dont think I understand your humour. And I dont think you understood mine. Let the FIA have a close look. Red Bull has won far many titles and races. They will still keep winning. And FIA will keep looking.


yeah, I thought as much, after your post, it would be asking too much.


#858 kazimriz

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:35

That sounds like arms and legs in the air, saying now the car has a design flaw! It's won a race, been fastest in qualifying and generally been very competitive.


Not good enough to have further updates bolted on. Those updates are now like arms and legs in the air, literally.

#859 kazimriz

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:38

yeah, I thought as much, after your post, it would be asking too much.


Yes. Its always too much for a man to make sense out of ninnys.

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#860 MaxisOne

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:39

Fine. So there is a design flaw again. Well, you all know I have been naively trusting so far, but I do not wish to torture myself, and put my patience through the drill again. I hardly could make a bigger fool of myself, but still. :D I am not a masochist, and that trait is required to be a Merc fan. So I will take some time off. Cheers.


+1

I fail to understand how come at the middle of the season the team with the 4th to 5th biggest budget cannot get their car up the grid or at the very worse keep their car relatively competitive.

The executive management at MGP appear too comfortable to let this continue and that includes Ross and Norbert and i really think a more aggresive management that requires results need to be implemented. This cannot continue.

I have always defended the team principals because they are usually the first ones under fire when something goes wrong with the team. However, after all these years with no tangible improvement i cannot defend Ross any further. Stefano under a Luca turn Ferrari's lemons into lemonade. Martin under Ron holds his emergency meetings and finds a way to solve their problems. So what are Ross and Norbert doing?

Mercedes talent pool is too deep for this to be excusable.

Edited by MaxisOne, 28 July 2012 - 21:42.


#861 race addicted

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:39

Of course they haven't reached the end with this car, development-wise! We're halfway through the season tomorrow afternoon, and they've got to keep working, 'cause Sauber are only 25 points further back from them.

#862 kazimriz

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:43

+1

I fail to understand how come at the middle of the season the team with the 4th to 5th biggest budget cannot get their car up the grid or at the very worse keep their car relatively competitive.

The executive management at MGP appear too comfortable to let this continue and that includes Ross and Norbert and i really think a more aggresive management that requires results need to be implemented. This cannot continue.

I have always defended the team principals because they are usually the first ones under fire when something goes wrong with the team. However, after all these years with no tangible improvement i cannot defend Ross any further. Stefano under a Luca turn Ferrari's lemons into lemonade. Martin under Ron holds his emergency meetings and finds a way What are Ross and Norbert doing?

Mercedes talent pool is too deep for this to be excusable.


Ross does look like he needs retirement. Ferrari days are over. I know, it is the same for young graduate, who leaves his college and friends and hostel/apartment to start a career. But he has to move on to other things in life, and learn to find his passion and energy. Ross needs a beach more than a track off the beach. So get a Honer like guy in. Or maybe someone else. What is Dietshe doing ? Is he having the same interest like mateshitz ? Even Norbert has fluffed too much into oblivion.

#863 kazimriz

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:45

Of course they haven't reached the end with this car, development-wise! We're halfway through the season tomorrow afternoon, and they've got to keep working, 'cause Sauber are only 25 points further back from them.


They will keep working and they will keep scoring. But they will never win.

#864 Pits

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:51

Well, this is shit for sure...but I still believe in the capability of this team.
Ofcourse we should be dissapointed reading this news, but succes will taste even sweeter after this.
Keep faith people and don't be a supporter only when the sun shines.


#865 kazimriz

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:52

Well, this is shit for sure...but I still believe in the capability of this team.
Ofcourse we should be dissapointed reading this news, but succes will taste even sweeter after this.
Keep faith people and don't be a supporter only when the sun shines.


When has the Sun ever shone ?

#866 Pits

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:54

Merc might do well to get rid off Schumacher this year. Get some new blood and energy in the team. This team is one of the oldest on the grid, by sheer numbers and age. Look at Schumacher, Brawn, Costa, Haug. Then look at Horner, Newey, Vettel.

Get rid of Schumacher? Go wash your mouth pls...
We are lucky to see this legend race, and Merc will be lucky if he stays next year.


#867 Pits

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:56

When has the Sun ever shone ?

Monaco and China comes to mind
And 2013 has great potential if this group stays together.

#868 Szoelloe

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 22:00

Well, this is shit for sure...but I still believe in the capability of this team.
Ofcourse we should be dissapointed reading this news, but succes will taste even sweeter after this.
Keep faith people and don't be a supporter only when the sun shines.



well I just got so pissed I lost my trust in Brawn. He should swap places with BB, and maybe this team would have a fighting chance of survival. Or leave, as our Red Bull fascinated friend has just suggested.

#869 kazimriz

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 22:03

Monaco and China comes to mind
And 2013 has great potential if this group stays together.


This is why Merc has never won title for half a century. They lack ambition. They lack hunger. Red Bull, on the other hand, lacks nothing of these. Yet they have german winning titles. Newey, the same man was lost to Brawn/Shumi army for 5 straight years, has come back to take his revenge. Sit down, and enjoy the Red Bull/Mclaren/Alonso domination for years to come. One day Merc will be sold to some other team, and that day I will be there for your sorrows.

#870 Longtimefan

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 22:23

Merc might do well to get rid off Schumacher this year. Get some new blood and energy in the team. This team is one of the oldest on the grid, by sheer numbers and age. Look at Schumacher, Brawn, Costa, Haug. Then look at Horner, Newey, Vettel.



This is ridiculous, Michael is driving well but he's had a HEAP of bad luck and DNF's.

Its the team that's letting us down time after time, not Michael nor Nico.


#871 Szoelloe

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 22:24

This is why Merc has never won title for half a century.


get your facts straight. They were not here for half a century. There engines though...

#872 eoin

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 22:31

Brawn's failing was that he didn't recognise the technical weaknesses in the team in a more timely manner. I said 18 months ago that 2011/12 and would be right off's and that is the way it has turned out. Over the last 12 months there have brought in a lot of big names and they need time to get their idea's across and that takes time. Whether these guys are good enough is questionable as although they have had success the teams they left improved after their departures.
If the team survives the winter, which is highly questionable given where it will finish in the WCC and the financial storm that is about to be unleashed in Europe, then next year they have to start to deliver in a similar fashion to Lotus this year but a little more end product.

Edited by eoin, 28 July 2012 - 22:32.


#873 BetaVersion

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 23:16

Maldonado off stopped Michael last lap. :mad:


Michael was exactly on Nico's pace, in S1,(13 Michael Schumacher 29.322, 14 Nico Rosberg 29.324) but even if Pastor hadn't messed up that corner, to throw dust into Schumi's path, he wouldn't do much better than what Nico did. The pace is just dysmal.

Let's see if this "allege" compromise will really have a significant effect on their race pace, or even better, let's hope it does rain so that points are more reachable

edit :Well, that was the obvious things which, later, I found out everyone else already posted. To say something original, I think we'll have to look at Spa's and Monza's performances very carefully because those track's layouts would be a good thing for Mercedes, anyway. Much of the speed, they eventually show, in either of these 2 GPs, may not come from the supposed upgrades that they will have, after summer break. I think the real tests for the upgrades will be Singapore and Suzuka

Edited by BetaVersion, 28 July 2012 - 23:56.


#874 Dolph

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 23:27

+1

I fail to understand how come at the middle of the season the team with the 4th to 5th biggest budget cannot get their car up the grid or at the very worse keep their car relatively competitive.

The executive management at MGP appear too comfortable to let this continue and that includes Ross and Norbert and i really think a more aggresive management that requires results need to be implemented. This cannot continue.

I have always defended the team principals because they are usually the first ones under fire when something goes wrong with the team. However, after all these years with no tangible improvement i cannot defend Ross any further. Stefano under a Luca turn Ferrari's lemons into lemonade. Martin under Ron holds his emergency meetings and finds a way to solve their problems. So what are Ross and Norbert doing?

Mercedes talent pool is too deep for this to be excusable.


Well they have recently hired top staff. They haven't had their full effect yet.

#875 ali_M

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 01:18

5851880[/url]']
Well they have recently hired top staff. They haven't had their full effect yet.


I think Newey was in F1 before Brawn since Newey was at Williams in 1991 already influencing the then to come Williams domination years from 1992-1997.
Ross isn't too old and neither is he demotivated. I doubt this very much. Just 2yrs ago he fielded the BrawnGP car that won a championship despite poor budgeting to continue development during the year.
There's indeed good reason to feel frustrated but to be calling for wholesale change.... It's refreshing to see that such opinions come from discussion boards and not from within the team. Now is likely NOT the time to be doing anything of the sort. Not after they've recently hired key players and done restructuring.
They clearly need more time from here. It's if Michael is up to hanging around.

#876 CSF

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 02:01

I feel it's an issue that has plagued this team since 2006. It's mid-season development. In 09 they went the wrong way with their best car since 2006, and almost cost themselves a championship. This season they actually built a good car at the start of the season, but didn't fully understand how to implement it into a race winner. They got it in China, but since then, it's been pretty poor.

I'm quite sad for both the drivers. Both have been pretty good this year, but neither have been given a consistent chance, through unreliability and random performance. It's sad, but with Costa onboard for next season, I feel it might change. Despite what others might think of his Ferrari's, they often had better in season development... so if they can build as quick as base car as they have for this season, it might just work. Then again..........................

#877 Tardis40

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 02:23

What I'm concluding from the last three years, and the corpspeak the team keeps handing out, is that they don't have a clue. I don't know why, but it
has become undeniable.


#878 jjpm

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 03:28

Optimism :
..."Whether the 2012er Silver Arrow again gets its act together, do not know the driver. "I do believe that we are able to understand the problem. Whether we can fix it, is another matter," said Schumacher."...


http://www.auto-moto...en-5314479.html

#879 Sakae

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 05:30

Merc might do well to get rid off Schumacher this year. Get some new blood and energy in the team. This team is one of the oldest on the grid, by sheer numbers and age. Look at Schumacher, Brawn, Costa, Haug. Then look at Horner, Newey, Vettel.

Nonsence, knee jerk reaction is not how rational people behave.

Edited by Sakae, 29 July 2012 - 05:30.


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#880 Sakae

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 05:37

I think Newey was in F1 before Brawn since Newey was at Williams in 1991 already influencing the then to come Williams domination years from 1992-1997.
Ross isn't too old and neither is he demotivated. I doubt this very much. Just 2yrs ago he fielded the BrawnGP car that won a championship despite poor budgeting to continue development during the year.
There's indeed good reason to feel frustrated but to be calling for wholesale change.... It's refreshing to see that such opinions come from discussion boards and not from within the team. Now is likely NOT the time to be doing anything of the sort. Not after they've recently hired key players and done restructuring.
They clearly need more time from here. It's if Michael is up to hanging around.

Ross inherited Honda's plentiful resources, and hit jackpot with DDD. That's what won him championship. Mercedes won Brawn on decline with the old staff, RRA, and now Pirelli. Lets do not loose sight of it. Still, Sauber and Renault are here to tell us, that current resources are OK, and what's required next is stability, and good ideas. Drivers aren't on a front burner.

#881 ivand911

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:05

I think we put to much qualities into Ross, when that was just Todt. I think administrative work is not Ross strong side. Norbert is not helping either. Still I think Bell was there to have influence on W03? We need somebody like Marko in that team. Ross and Norbert look mellow and nobody seems to respect them. They look like happy middle aged men, happy on their own presence.
I can't believe it, three years wasted , from MS and our lives. Now serious - Michael should look at other teams for next season.

Edited by ivand911, 29 July 2012 - 07:12.


#882 Sakae

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:20

Now serious - Michael should look at other teams for next season.

OK, despite rejecting this idea several times already, I bite. Which team are we talking about? Do not forget that Hamilton would be the other guy (probably) interested in the same a seat, if there is one at all (of any value).

#883 ivand911

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:25

OK, despite rejecting this idea several times already, I bite. Which team are we talking about? Do not forget that Hamilton would be the other guy (probably) interested in the same a seat, if there is one at all (of any value).

Ferrari, Sauber and Williams. Last two have good car for the season until now, their drivers just couldn't show it. When Senna get in Q3 ,you know that car is very good.


#884 Icicle

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:27

The way Mercedes seems to lose pace on race day, Toro Rosso’s & Caterham’s must be fancying to out-race Mercedes. Of course this will also make Mercedes get even better at predicting tire behavior.

#885 Sakae

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:47

I wasn't there when Michael was talking to his wife before re-entering the ring, but it would not surprise me had he said to her, Schatzi, let me try this one; it's my last one, I promise.

#886 Jejking

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 08:18

Optimism :
..."Whether the 2012er Silver Arrow again gets its act together, do not know the driver. "I do believe that we are able to understand the problem. Whether we can fix it, is another matter," said Schumacher."...


http://www.auto-moto...en-5314479.html

Link is dead.

#887 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 09:02

The double decker diffuser was actually an idea suggested by an ex Super Aguri designer.

#888 Szoelloe

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 09:38

Ferrari, Sauber and Williams. Last two have good car for the season until now, their drivers just couldn't show it. When Senna get in Q3 ,you know that car is very good.


LOL.

Ferrari will not touch him with a ten foot pole anymore, and they are right to do so, for all the obvious reasons. Sauber? You must be joking. They have a good year because of the Pirellis, but the Pirellis will be different again next year, not to say they have started their usual fallback for the rest of the season. It is a small 'one-less-pitstop' team, no resources, dumb strategies, and its ugly. Williams? maybe they are climbing back, but that's a long shot, and MS would actually have to pay for that seat, judging by the past ten years. The only reason MS is still driving is Ross Brawn, and so far it is an epic fail, they are pulling a Toyota. Brace yourself, because today's not going to be a good feeling for MS, and he will go for the summer brake with that sour taste in his mouth, and when they come back, and the car's not significantly better, that is when you can say goodbye to MS.


#889 jjpm

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 09:55

Srry for bad link here is the good one (then google traduction)
http://www.auto-moto...en-5314479.html

#890 Massa

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 10:03

LOL.

Ferrari will not touch him with a ten foot pole anymore, and they are right to do so, for all the obvious reasons. Sauber? You must be joking. They have a good year because of the Pirellis, but the Pirellis will be different again next year, not to say they have started their usual fallback for the rest of the season. It is a small 'one-less-pitstop' team, no resources, dumb strategies, and its ugly. Williams? maybe they are climbing back, but that's a long shot, and MS would actually have to pay for that seat, judging by the past ten years. The only reason MS is still driving is Ross Brawn, and so far it is an epic fail, they are pulling a Toyota. Brace yourself, because today's not going to be a good feeling for MS, and he will go for the summer brake with that sour taste in his mouth, and when they come back, and the car's not significantly better, that is when you can say goodbye to MS.

Sauber have the best facilities in F1. I don't know what are you talking about. Fast because of the Pirelli ? LOL, its a good team who make a good job to understand the tyres, they are fast with all compound. In fact, in many races their car was one of the fastest. Schumacher would be much more happy at Sauber than the ex BAR, Honda team.

Edited by Massa, 29 July 2012 - 10:15.


#891 Szoelloe

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 10:11

Sauber have the best facilities in F1. I don't know what are you talking about. Fast because of the Pirelli ? LOL, its a good team who make a good job to understand the tyre, they are fast with all compound. In fact, in the race, in many race their care was one of the fastest. Schumacher would be much more hay at Sauber than the ex BAR, Honda team.



well, let's agree to disagree then. But it will not happen, that's for sure :D

edit: Sauber is the team for Massa, if he want's to keep on.

Edited by Szoelloe, 29 July 2012 - 10:13.


#892 ivand911

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 10:25

See race pace of MGP, Hulk and STR:
http://184.106.145.7.....Lap Times.pdf
FI much faster, STR=MGP.

Edited by ivand911, 29 July 2012 - 10:40.


#893 Szoelloe

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 10:35

See race pace of MGP, Hulk and STR:
http://184.106.145.7.....Lap Times.pdf
FI much faster, STR=MGP.


Yeah, it is stomach churning. Last year, with a shitty car, they were easily fourth on the grid.

#894 ivand911

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 10:41

Now, I remember that MGP used mediums on long runs? Maybe other used softs?
Szoelloe , are you on the track?

Edited by ivand911, 29 July 2012 - 10:43.


#895 ali.unal

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 10:49

Ross Brawn:

If you have a balance that doesn't help the tyres, then if you have a bad qualifying it may not be better in the race. If you have a car that cannot switch on its tyres and is looking after the rears, then it is logical to suggest that you could be in better shape for the race. I am not sure that will be the case for us.


:|

#896 Szoelloe

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 10:53

Ross Brawn:



:|


seriously, it is a complete mess. Falling flat on your face like that. This team is crumbling as the season develops like a piece of dry croissant.


#897 jjpm

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 12:05

nobody tought of this one !

#898 Longtimefan

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 12:21

The team are producing shitbox after shitbox of a car, disaster after disaster and even after the worst qually ever Ross is smirking on tv interviews like this is fun.

Fun to you maybe, but it's bloody agony to me.

#899 Longtimefan

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 12:21

I think we put to much qualities into Ross, when that was just Todt. I think administrative work is not Ross strong side. Norbert is not helping either. Still I think Bell was there to have influence on W03? We need somebody like Marko in that team. Ross and Norbert look mellow and nobody seems to respect them. They look like happy middle aged men, happy on their own presence.
I can't believe it, three years wasted , from MS and our lives. Now serious - Michael should look at other teams for next season.


I agree 100%


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#900 1Devil1

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 12:28

Nico's speed seems okay. Sorry for Michael. Points would be in the reach