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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#951 BigCHrome

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 06:07

How can you blame Schumi lining up in the wrong spot, not knowing the rules, and speeding in the pits to Merc?

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#952 Sakae

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 06:09

So he lied to the press (RTL)?


BTW: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/101635

Schumacher was tyring to start from P19 instead P17 which caused the restart.

German is his native language, and in heated moment to explain quickly reasons for sequence of events that lead to aborted start is probably more accurate and better understood, than in English when translation could be easilly misinterpreted, if spoken hurriedly or in shorthand. I would make some allowances for it. German article strikes me as telling the event more in context of circumstances.

Edited by Sakae, 30 July 2012 - 06:11.


#953 Atreiu

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 06:20

New engines come 2014? Maybe Mercedes should stick with Mclaren and put all their might behind the engines. Really.

#954 Sakae

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 06:40

Mercedes Benz either will pull out for legal reasons (quite real possibility), or they should stay, and finish the job. Measurement of success would be two or more repeated consecutive WDC/WCC titles to avoid articles that would follow with headlines containing word "fluke". Pulling out now is just as difficult as staying in. Move all to Germany if necessary to former Toyota facilities that might be for sell. HRT has done correct thing, and I applaud them for it. AMG should follow that example, despite all difficulties associated with it. (Relationship with McLaren has its limitation, as I understand it).

Edited by Sakae, 30 July 2012 - 06:42.


#955 Konsta

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 07:19

The team has struggled here in the past, even when they were known as Brawn. The next few races should suit the car a bit better- well unless they struggle at the Parabolica as it's a long medium-to-fast corner which is where is why they struggled this weekend.

:)

The team will do excellently IF they won't suck ;)

The results and the improvement as a whole has been just appalling. How on earth can they do so badly with brains and money they have?

#956 schumimercamg

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:12

The only thing that would anger me more than them producing shit car after shit car would be them giving up and pulling out because they couldn't win. Mercedes as a brand would be dead to me if they did that.

#957 eoin

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:38

:)

The team will do excellently IF they won't suck ;)

The results and the improvement as a whole has been just appalling. How on earth can they do so badly with brains and money they have?


I said nothing about excellently, just that they should be back to fight for 6th/8th in the next few races.

Mercedes hasn't had brains, that has been the problem. A team can't produce as many turkey's as this team has over the last 13 years without having a massive shortage of talent. It's also not just about the big names, there are dozens of people that have a large influence on the car and it's likely that most of those people have been substandard- if they weren't substandard they would of left the team years ago. That's why Newey wasn't able to arrive at Red Bull and build a race winning car, he had to build a technical team first. That is what Bell is suppose to be doing at Mercedes- weeding out the weak links but my guess is that there is more of them at Mercedes than any other established team.

#958 jav

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:54

For me it's impressive when an organization remains stoich in the face of difficult situations. When the results do come, that reserved humility suggests a quiet confidence that bolsters the success achieved in the face of adversity.... success is more special when it's hard fought.

But- when the results never come, the reserved silence just looks like inferiority, lack understanding and being in over their head. So many have been hoping the former- but as time passes, the later seems much more likely.

Edited by jav, 30 July 2012 - 12:57.


#959 JensonWDC

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 16:20

how many races left untill they shift 90% of their energy to next year?
I say it´ll happen after Monza

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#960 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 16:54

How can you blame Schumi lining up in the wrong spot, not knowing the rules, and speeding in the pits to Merc?


Well if Schumacher had the brain fade, what about his engineer? Surely, he should be COMMUNICATING with him ALL the time, especially when you have a difficult start to the race.

Also; brain fade aside, how does one explain the POOR and pathetic pace, the munching of the tyres, poor strategy, electronic problems (no telemetary) etc etc. Mercedes have a lot to answer for. Since Canada they have been very poor. Valencia was an anomology with all the front runners crashing out and if you take those into account their pace has been good enough for 7-10th position for the last FOUR races.

Winning a title? Let's try and make the top 5 first lads.

#961 jjpm

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 20:23

AMuS (Google trad):
"Since the Hungarian GP should the torque curve at full load than two percent of the standard range may differ, the teams can choose from one of the first four races. But no sooner is the rule in force, there are already problems. Mercedes, Williams and Lotus could therefore up to the end of the season not change its exhaust position."

http://www.auto-moto...st-5314338.html

#962 Pits

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 22:37

AMuS (Google trad):
"Since the Hungarian GP should the torque curve at full load than two percent of the standard range may differ, the teams can choose from one of the first four races. But no sooner is the rule in force, there are already problems. Mercedes, Williams and Lotus could therefore up to the end of the season not change its exhaust position."

http://www.auto-moto...st-5314338.html


I'm pretty sure the FIA will adjust the rule so it's fair to everybody.
Any other outcome would be madness.

#963 crbassassin

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 09:40

DDRS is banned for the 3013 season

#964 RedBaron

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 09:52

DDRS is banned for the 3013 season



Seems a bit premature to create a rule 1001 years in advance.

#965 Pits

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 10:42

Technical reshuffle at Mercedes

Jul.31 (GMM) Mercedes has started a process of restructuring its technical team, Italy's Autosprint reports.

The report said the Brackley based team's aerodynamics chief John Owen is moving up to be technical director.

Owen's role is being filled by a new signing, Mike Elliot, who has joined from Lotus.

Autosprint wonders, however, "What will happen with the trio (Aldo) Costa, (Geoff) Willis and (Bob) Bell?"

At last count, the well-known trio held high-ranking technical roles at the carmaker-owned squad.

Autosprint said Mercedes could be scaling-down.


I really hope this is just summerbreak gossip and far from the truth.
Else It's all over for Merc... :eek:

#966 BernieEc

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 10:50

DDRS is banned for the 32013 season

fixed :)

Edited by BernieEc, 31 July 2012 - 10:51.


#967 ali_M

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 10:55

I really hope this is just summerbreak gossip and far from the truth.
Else It's all over for Merc... :eek:


Not guaranteed.... let us see.. let us see. :well:

#968 Sakae

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:00

I really hope this is just summerbreak gossip and far from the truth.
Else It's all over for Merc... :eek:

I read that article with help of a software based translator. Pretty good kick-off of the August break.

#969 Pits

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:14

After reading this article I feel better.
It's about the interpretation I guess.

http://www.gpupdate....ed-at-mercedes/


#970 rossbrawn

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:24

I really hope this is just summerbreak gossip and far from the truth.
Else It's all over for Merc... :eek:


Source?

I have to say, it is bull shine. Why on earth would you sack the (very experienced) trio that just walked in, and haven't had 'proper' time to make an impact?

It is nonsense. I cannot imagine Schumacher would want to stay at a team that is downsizing - his title aspirations in future would be toast.

#971 Jejking

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:27

One more:

http://mercamgf1-fan...turing-rumours/

#972 Pits

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:27

Source?

I have to say, it is bull shine. Why on earth would you sack the (very experienced) trio that just walked in, and haven't had 'proper' time to make an impact?

It is nonsense. I cannot imagine Schumacher would want to stay at a team that is downsizing - his title aspirations in future would be toast.


I agree it's very unlikely, but still...
It would explane Schumacher's bad day in Hungary a little.

The source is included in the article, autosprint.

#973 rossbrawn

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:28

I agree it's very unlikely, but still...
It would explane Schumacher's bad day in Hungary a little.

The source is included in the article, autosprint.


Autosprint are not really reliable. I remember them reporting figures for potential Ferrari upgrades, which were massively incorrect.

#974 Pits

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:32

One more:

http://mercamgf1-fan...turing-rumours/



Well, this clears it up! :up:

#975 BernieEc

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:34

http://www.totalf1.c...technical_team/

Mercedes reshuffle key members of technical team

#976 Slowinfastout

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 12:00

Don't ever freak out about a GMM article, this is a golden rule.

Saward explains some of the ties between the people being moved around: http://joesaward.wor...turing-rumours/

#977 Sakae

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 12:00

Surely this crimi is full of suspense. I love it!

#978 Sakae

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 12:06

Don't ever freak out about a GMM article, this is a golden rule.

Saward explains some of the ties between the people being moved around: http://joesaward.wor...turing-rumours/

Having people around you whom you trust and are comfortable with is an art which never got lost on us since time of Genghis Khan. Nothing wrong or weird about it.

#979 Slowinfastout

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 12:10

Having people around you whom you trust and are comfortable with is an art which never got lost on us since time of Genghis Khan. Nothing wrong or weird about it.


Yes, this is exactly what I hinted at..

I was referring to post #967

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#980 Pits

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 12:55

Yes, this is exactly what I hinted at..

I was referring to post #967


You're right, I should've known better... :blush:

#981 Poep

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 17:34

You're right, I should've known better... :blush:

So, who is really designing next years car? Who is the Chief Designer? Aldo Costa, Owen or Elliot?

#982 Sakae

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 18:09

So, who is really designing next years car? Who is the Chief Designer? Aldo Costa, Owen or Elliot?

Team. Ross probably facilitates.

#983 jav

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 18:15

Not that I know the structure, but I would be surprised if this dream team wasn't working mostly on W03 since they started. Perhaps they were locked into some major design decisions, and I'm sure some resources are directed at next years car but GOOD LORD.... how does a talented group of guys let an initially compelling car fall so far , so fast?

I've grown cynical that this team is too eager to abandon finding solutions in favor of working on new designs. The failing seems to be that new designs bring new problems and the inability to find solutions in season just comes back again and again. I've witnessed this for 2 1/2 seasons and don't understand why Mercs team seems to function like a weaker mid field team despite the huge names in their camp? Pit stops have become unremarkeable, reliability has decreased, updates seem sparse and ineffective, certainly results have slipped despite each years car being hailed as better than the last.

Tires are as much to blame as they are to be creditted for what limitted success we have had... and everyone has to deal with them. Like many other facets, this team is NOT doing as good a job as it's rivals and it's depressing given the players.

Edited by jav, 31 July 2012 - 18:20.


#984 BigCHrome

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 18:15

AMuS (Google trad):
"Since the Hungarian GP should the torque curve at full load than two percent of the standard range may differ, the teams can choose from one of the first four races. But no sooner is the rule in force, there are already problems. Mercedes, Williams and Lotus could therefore up to the end of the season not change its exhaust position."

http://www.auto-moto...st-5314338.html


Merc was probably using the continuous blowing engine maps in the early part of the season, they just didn't have the outboard exhausts. Also considering that they haven't changed them still I don't think they ever planned to.

#985 Sakae

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 18:33

Does anyone knows what's the true story behind Loic Bigois' departure?

#986 Szoelloe

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 18:56

Does anyone knows what's the true story behind Loic Bigois' departure?



Yeah, He truly sucked. The guy had several years of opportunities to shine, and instead, he designed lemons.

#987 DutchCruijff

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 19:02

Why is Bigois being drafted into such a high position at Ferrari?

All he has ever produced are shitboxes.

#988 black magic

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 23:20

the problem will be the same next years as years gone by.

its one thing to abandon a design and switch. if however you are already starting from a long way back or dont really understand the problem then next years car tends to be a dog as well.

look at the run mclaren had in early 2000 when despite making interim cars they still sucked relatively - even with newey

rbr on the other hand has well bnbalanced chasis and starts the new season at teh front of the field from the previous season. the lack of development to me indicates a fundamental lack of resource - both financial and knowhow - because if you had both then you would develop the car, confirm solutions work then you are in the best position for the following year - especially given the dramatic reduction in testing available.

why would we expect next years car to be any good given the track record to date.

why would we expect it to be any good even if they started on it today given they might understand where they are slow but seemingly have no obvious solutions - especially since the same problems appear to arise year after year

#989 Fildischum

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 01:09

the problem will be the same next years as years gone by.

its one thing to abandon a design and switch. if however you are already starting from a long way back or dont really understand the problem then next years car tends to be a dog as well.

look at the run mclaren had in early 2000 when despite making interim cars they still sucked relatively - even with newey

rbr on the other hand has well bnbalanced chasis and starts the new season at teh front of the field from the previous season. the lack of development to me indicates a fundamental lack of resource - both financial and knowhow - because if you had both then you would develop the car, confirm solutions work then you are in the best position for the following year - especially given the dramatic reduction in testing available.

why would we expect next years car to be any good given the track record to date.

why would we expect it to be any good even if they started on it today given they might understand where they are slow but seemingly have no obvious solutions - especially since the same problems appear to arise year after year


Good point mate and i agree. Abondoning a project and leaving the flaws unresolve would still not guarantee you will produce a better car. Thats why i think this happening at merc over and over again.

#990 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 09:00

The question is "do the design team actually understand what is wrong with the car?"

Only then can they abandon the W03 project and start afresh.

Don't expect anything different with the W04.

#991 KiloWatt

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 09:02

why would we expect next years car to be any good given the track record to date.

why would we expect it to be any good even if they started on it today given they might understand where they are slow but seemingly have no obvious solutions - especially since the same problems appear to arise year after year


A small hope that I'm clinging to is that in addition to Bell, there will be Costa, Willis and Elliot having a heavy hand in the W04. People with something of a track record, you know.

I wonder if Willis hasn't been too busy sorting out infrastructure to fully focus on aero upgrades. It's only conjecture of course, but it would explain a lot of things.


#992 scheivlak

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 09:13

Why is Bigois being drafted into such a high position at Ferrari?

All he has ever produced are shitboxes.

The 2009 Brawn wasn't too bad.....

#993 puxanando

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 09:44

Why Mercedes are struggling

WEB

#994 Pits

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 10:01

So, who is really designing next years car? Who is the Chief Designer? Aldo Costa, Owen or Elliot?


http://mercamgf1-fan...team-personnel/


#995 Pits

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 10:13

Why Mercedes are struggling

WEB



Seems to be a logical annalyses. Maybe the should make a W03 b-spec without the DDRS for circuit's that don't suit it.
I mean, they can change it every race if they want to can't they?

#996 Schumacher7

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 10:18

Why Mercedes are struggling

WEB

I thought that was a good read, cheers.

#997 Timstr11

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 10:49

As far as I know, Loic Bigois did not have a car design role at Honda-Brawn-Mercedes.
His role was to oversee aero technology. He was not responsible for the shape of the car, but rather the aero technology used to shape the car.
Bigois' former role has been expanded to include Vehicle Dynamics and is now headed up by Geoff Willis.
Often confused, but many teams have separate roles for aerodynamic technology and aerodynamic design (the shape of the car).
(E.g. John Iley, who used to be head of aero at McLaren, was not responsible for the shape of the car but for the development of aero technologies at the team).

The leading roles responsible for aerodynamic design are the Chief Designer John Owen (who was promoted from Principal (Chief) Aerodynamicist to Chief Designer last year) and Technical Director Bob Bell to whom he reports. I think Owen combined the roles of Chief Designer and Chief Aerodynamicist until Mike Elliott arrived. It is likely that Mike Elliot now reports to him.

Edit: I think Owen now reports to Aldo Costa

I would not point to one person being responsible for either success or failure in the design of F1 cars.
Strategic decisions about the design direction and design are not made by one person and it's all about having the right people, in the right roles in the right structure.
Mercedes are clearly not there, yet.

Edited by Timstr11, 01 August 2012 - 11:10.


#998 ali_M

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:12

I thought that was a good read, cheers.


+1 Very plausible read and considering the writer's credentials, he may well be spot on there.

#999 george1981

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:13

If the double DRS is the cause of some of their problems, why are they continuing to run it?
The fact that no other team has copied it in it's current form, Lotus are using a different concept, should tell them something.
Did Mercedes ever really get a handle on EBDs last year? Could they quickly copy the McLaren solution?

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#1000 KiloWatt

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:29

Why Mercedes are struggling

WEB


Thank you kind sir! :up: