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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#1001 george1981

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:13

If the double DRS is the cause of some of their problems, why are they continuing to run it?
The fact that no other team has copied it in it's current form, Lotus are using a different concept, should tell them something.
Did Mercedes ever really get a handle on EBDs last year? Could they quickly copy the McLaren solution?

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#1002 KiloWatt

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:29

Why Mercedes are struggling

WEB


Thank you kind sir! :up:

#1003 Zava

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:40

Thank you kind sir! :up:

not exactly. :D

#1004 rossbrawn

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:43

Strategic decisions about the design direction and design are not made by one person and it's all about having the right people, in the right roles in the right structure.
Mercedes are clearly not there, yet.


Precisely :up: .


#1005 jav

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:40

....I would not point to one person being responsible for either success or failure in the design of F1 cars.
Strategic decisions about the design direction and design are not made by one person and it's all about having the right people, in the right roles in the right structure.
Mercedes are clearly not there, yet.



I would agree with the blame not being directed at one person BUT- I struggle to understand why a bunch of all-stars are playing so badly.

If you had put Larry Bird, Micheal Jordan, Magic Johnson, Julius Irving, and Kareem Abdul on a team and switched up their positions- yeah they may not be as strong as they could be BUT they'd still be near impossible to beat. I'm starting to question how these guys have been so ineffective at improving W03. I don't buy into the notion that they haven't been involved in working on the car, they've just been inneffective at it- which is troubling for W04 and beyond. If they had come in and raised the red flag saying - " this design is unworkable - we need to start fresh", I'd be more hopeful. They haven't done that and in fact extolled the huge step forward taken by the team/staff/car.

Step forward relative to what? Perhaps the car "feels" better, and isn't overheating but is it really more competitive? W01 was a 1st year transition design and not good enough. W02 was supposed to be better but was admittedly flawed with a high CoG, overheating issues and was arguably less successful than W01. W03 has been hailed as a huge step forward but between reliability issues, continued tire issues and general lack luster pace- the team will be hard pressed to match last years 4th place finish.... remebering that their "lofty" goal for this year was to improve on 4th.

This seems like failure on so many levels that I agree- you can't lay blame on one guy... there's too much of it to go around.

Edited by jav, 01 August 2012 - 12:40.


#1006 Timstr11

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 14:34

I struggle to understand why a bunch of all-stars are playing so badly.
I'm starting to question how these guys have been so ineffective at improving W03. I don't buy into the notion that they haven't been involved in working on the car, they've just been inneffective at it- which is troubling for W04 and beyond. If they had come in and raised the red flag saying - " this design is unworkable - we need to start fresh", I'd be more hopeful. They haven't done that and in fact extolled the huge step forward taken by the team/staff/car.

Remember that Costa and Willis joined late. And I think they only recently discovered the problem in long corners. Ross mentioned they had made a deliberate decision (speaking of strategic design decisions) to create a car that would excel in medium - to low speed - corners, while sacrificing high speed corners a bit. It's always a compromise and given that medium to low speed corners are higher in number overall, it would seem like a good decision. But I think that by doing that, they've designed in an anomaly in long 180 degree corners as well. Sometimes you just take a wrong turn which may be hard to correct (they're now working to change this). But what I do agree with is that there seems to be a lack of urgency compared to e.g. Ferrari at the beginning of the season. Ferrari were relentless in identifying their problems and turning around their car. They even used (and still use) the media to help put pressure on their team. Mercedes has a different (more anglo-saxon?) approach which from the outside makes them look rather lacklustre in attacking their problems.

Edited by Timstr11, 01 August 2012 - 14:39.


#1007 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 15:21

If you had put Larry Bird, Micheal Jordan, Magic Johnson, Julius Irving, and Kareem Abdul on a team and switched up their positions- yeah they may not be as strong as they could be BUT they'd still be near impossible to beat.

well yeah, but if you switch Mike Tyson with Michael Jordan or Michael Schumacher it may not work so good :)



#1008 jav

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 15:24

Remember that Costa and Willis joined late. And I think they only recently discovered the problem in long corners. Ross mentioned they had made a deliberate decision (speaking of strategic design decisions) to create a car that would excel in medium - to low speed - corners, while sacrificing high speed corners a bit. It's always a compromise and given that medium to low speed corners are higher in number overall, it would seem like a good decision. But I think that by doing that, they've designed in an anomaly in long 180 degree corners as well. Sometimes you just take a wrong turn which may be hard to correct (they're now working to change this). But what I do agree with is that there seems to be a lack of urgency compared to e.g. Ferrari at the beginning of the season. Ferrari were relentless in identifying their problems and turning around their car. They even used (and still use) the media to help put pressure on their team. Mercedes has a different (more anglo-saxon?) approach which from the outside makes them look rather lacklustre in attacking their problems.



I remember the late additions and this isn't an acceptable explanation in my view.

All decisons/strategies are deliberate towards a stated goal. History will judge their worth not by the soundness of their intent, but by their effectiveness. Whatever they have done is not acheiving their stated goals. They set the bar pretty low- and they still failed to clear it.

I reject the notion that it's acceptable they "recently discovered" anything. This far in, with the talent, testing and telemetry they have, if they are just now discovering anything, then that's probably the source of their woes. You can't come out with a promising car, lose ground AND take til mid season to identify a problem- let alone take steps to correct it. This team seems incredibly slow to understand and fix problems while others seem to deal with their problems AND BRING IMPROVEMENTS at the same time.

I could care less about their sense of urgency IF the results were there- but they aren't. You can succeed with a car that isn't the best early on if your developments outpace the competition. But even if you start on even footing but development lags- you can't succeed. This team has started sub par, (but with promise), and wasted the promise with slow development.

late arrivals or not- they share the blame in my book.

Edited by jav, 01 August 2012 - 16:14.


#1009 rossbrawn

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 11:24

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/101688

Mercedes not throwing in the towel just yet; I'm happy to see this sort of attitude.

#1010 jj2728

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 11:43

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/101688

Mercedes not throwing in the towel just yet; I'm happy to see this sort of attitude.


Why would they? RB is only stating the obvious.

#1011 rossbrawn

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 11:49

Why would they? RB is only stating the obvious.


I remember this time last year, something along the lines of: "We're pushing all our efforts into next year's car".

Mercedes need to break out of the BAR mentality, and prove to everyone that they can solve the problems with the car. Running away from them doesn't solve anything.

#1012 RedBaron

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 11:49

Why would they? RB is only stating the obvious.


Because that team has a history of stopping development midseason-ish and focusing on the following season. All but 2009 as far as I recall.

#1013 Fondmetal

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 19:14

Its amazing for a team such as Mercedes not having the ability to keep up the development race and push on with updates every few races in the manner other teams are doing. There seems to be a fundamental problem with the teams technical direction, what is happening with the so called super directors they recruited earlier this year? Bell, Costa, Willis, etc? These people are not clueless have have a wealth of experience. More so they seem to be strategically inept with many blunders since 2010 more so on Schumachers side. Does make you wonder if there are some in his side of the garage trying to sabotage his chances of getting a good result.

Ross needs to develop a back bone and sort this mess out the team is fast becoming a laughing stock in F1.

#1014 Sakae

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 19:19

I think it's time for Stuttgart to let us know what thery are planning for next year. I hope we will know in August. I am not in Germany right now, but I can't find anything on the internet which would be relevant to this issue. Notwithstanding a bad day in Hungary, I hope we will race next year with people we have, but a better car (and self made luck).

#1015 Sakae

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 19:27

Its amazing for a team such as Mercedes not having the ability to keep up the development race and push on with updates every few races in the manner other teams are doing. There seems to be a fundamental problem with the teams technical direction, what is happening with the so called super directors they recruited earlier this year? Bell, Costa, Willis, etc? These people are not clueless have have a wealth of experience. More so they seem to be strategically inept with many blunders since 2010 more so on Schumachers side. Does make you wonder if there are some in his side of the garage trying to sabotage his chances of getting a good result.

Ross needs to develop a back bone and sort this mess out the team is fast becoming a laughing stock in F1.

Are you familiar with TV series La Femme Nikita? I guess that Operations is required urgently at Brackley, UK to take care of business. Ross has taken summer break little bit early this year. :D

#1016 rossbrawn

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 19:31

Its amazing for a team such as Mercedes not having the ability to keep up the development race and push on with updates every few races in the manner other teams are doing.


Why? Remember this team has a lineage going back to the BAR days. If Mercedes want to move forward, they need to remove the weaknesses from this area - there's a reason why Honda pumped millions with little success.

There seems to be a fundamental problem with the teams technical direction, what is happening with the so called super directors they recruited earlier this year? Bell, Costa, Willis, etc? These people are not clueless have have a wealth of experience. More so they seem to be strategically inept with many blunders since 2010 more so on Schumachers side. Does make you wonder if there are some in his side of the garage trying to sabotage his chances of getting a good result.

Ross needs to develop a back bone and sort this mess out the team is fast becoming a laughing stock in F1.


Yes that is a fair comment. They do not seem to know what exactly their development plan is. Brawn's talk of "understanding the tyres" needs to be thrown out the window: they will only become competitive when they begin gaining rear downforce and adding the cascades back onto the front wing.

The effect of Costa and Willis is yet to be experienced I believe - this car was not born under their eyes. Furthermore, the addition of Mike Elliot should strengthen the development of the aerodynamics of the car. McLaren have showed that, one big upgrade can bring you back to the front of the competitive. The question is: can Mercedes do the same?

#1017 mkoscevic

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 20:08

Are you familiar with TV series La Femme Nikita? I guess that Operations is required urgently at Brackley, UK to take care of business. Ross has taken summer break little bit early this year. :D


Definitely! :lol:

McLaren have showed that, one big upgrade can bring you back to the front of the competitive. The question is: can Mercedes do the same?


Big upgrade on top of a strong baseline and i'm not convinced at all that W03 has that.

#1018 puxanando

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 20:33

Ross needs to develop a back bone and sort this mess out the team is fast becoming a laughing stock in F1.


Sometimes I ask me: where is the Ross from Brawn GP? Seems other person.........


#1019 Sakae

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 05:41

Why? Remember this team has a lineage going back to the BAR days. If Mercedes want to move forward, they need to remove the weaknesses from this area - there's a reason why Honda pumped millions with little success.

German owned niche facility should be perhaps located in Germany, to beggin with.


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#1020 rossbrawn

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 10:53

Big upgrade on top of a strong baseline and i'm not convinced at all that W03 has that.


We'll see.

#1021 rossbrawn

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 10:53

German owned niche facility should be perhaps located in Germany, to beggin with.


That'd be far too expensive.

#1022 Starish

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 14:42

Definitely! :lol:



Big upgrade on top of a strong baseline and i'm not convinced at all that W03 has that.

Huh? the W03 is a great baseline and mechanical car, its weak points are tyres and downforce, it clearly has the pace if it has no downforce disadvantage pertaining to the track layout. The team is clearly being out developed though and its approach is wrong focussing on tyres only.

#1023 rog

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 15:26

Their biggest issue at the moment is the weak downforce level in corners, tyre degradation isn't a big issue anymore, mediocre I would say. The car had some pace beside the tyres issues in the race beginning of the year. It completely changed after some races, while the tyres durability is satisfying their development progress on the car itself can't compete with most other teams. The last bigger updates were introduced in Monaco as far as I know. Since then not much progress, so it's no wonder that Mercedes went backwards. And it's every year the same for this team. They are too slow in reacting to problems and developing new upgrades for the car during a season.


#1024 Sakae

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 15:34

That'd be far too expensive.

It's a German team, and Made in Germany would be nice stamp on that car. High rate of deviations in past two seasons should be perhaps unacceptable. Brackley had their chance. It is an international effort at the office, but I would like to see German content to rise.

#1025 rossbrawn

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 16:09

It's a German team, and Made in Germany would be nice stamp on that car. High rate of deviations in past two seasons should be perhaps unacceptable. Brackley had their chance. It is an international effort at the office, but I would like to see German content to rise.


The chances of that happening are slim. Mercedes bought into the idea of, Brawn being capable of holding championship cars consistently each season. Clearly not the case - fundamental flaws in the Brackley unit have been exposed in the past 3 years which the management are now attempting to correct.

As I said already, the costs involved are astronomical: Mercedes are better off pulling out of F1 altogether, than re-creating their own resources in Stuttgart, amidst an European economic crisis.

#1026 Sakae

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 17:37

The chances of that happening are slim. Mercedes bought into the idea of, Brawn being capable of holding championship cars consistently each season. Clearly not the case - fundamental flaws in the Brackley unit have been exposed in the past 3 years which the management are now attempting to correct.

As I said already, the costs involved are astronomical: Mercedes are better off pulling out of F1 altogether, than re-creating their own resources in Stuttgart, amidst an European economic crisis.

There is no "European economic crisis". Puffy faces of pretty girls on TV like to quote each other; it’s very fashionable. There is however a financial world wide crises, in reality in US worse than in EU. Finland put usurers on leash, and their economy is just fine, if not the very best. But, people like to divert attention and speak of "European crisis" only. What we have in here is formation and shaping of United States of Europe and what we see is to be expected and accepted; but, this is for another forum and here OT.

Back to issues Mercedes is facing, we simply do not know the truth. An armchair analysis is fun, yet some questions beg for answers:

- Is Stuttgart interfering and to what extend, or does Brackley under Norbert's leadership have their full autonomy in decision they take on design and operational issues?
- Hiring several heavy duty guns recently could be taken as silent admission of technical weakness in major areas (especially after departure of LB)
- Reliability engineering could be stronger
- Pit wall engineering could use changes as well; I am not sure what's the problem, but Schumacher got exposed some pretty weak strategy on a few occasions

People talking about more time are required, but time to do what? Some of the issues do not require five years grace period. Occasionally I wonder how would have this year developed with a different tire. Team is not responding perhaps as rapidly to emerging issues as some others do. Is this process symptomatic of growing up? I sort of doubt that is the only challenge for them. Finally, unresolved commercial issues probably leave some employees wondering about their job in 2013, which could be legitimate, yet undesirable distraction. Management has every right to be concerned about other teams taking advantage of this unfinished business, and perhaps put a fire wall against other teams quietly pouching the best from lower ranks.


#1027 BRG

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 18:59

German owned niche facility should be perhaps located in Germany, to beggin with.

Based in Germany? That worked pretty well for Toyota, didn't it?

#1028 rossbrawn

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 20:35

There is no "European economic crisis". Puffy faces of pretty girls on TV like to quote each other; it’s very fashionable. There is however a financial world wide crises, in reality in US worse than in EU. Finland put usurers on leash, and their economy is just fine, if not the very best. But, people like to divert attention and speak of "European crisis" only. What we have in here is formation and shaping of United States of Europe and what we see is to be expected and accepted; but, this is for another forum and here OT.


You're joking, right?

United States of Europe? Well, I have to say: you have to be living in dream-land to believe that. Germany's wet dream is indeed, a United States of Europe, however, nations such as the United Kingdom will not conform to such an ideal. We're far from that being anywhere near reality, not till Europe can solve its financial crisis.

Back to issues Mercedes is facing, we simply do not know the truth. An armchair analysis is fun, yet some questions beg for answers:

- Is Stuttgart interfering and to what extend, or does Brackley under Norbert's leadership have their full autonomy in decision they take on design and operational issues?
- Hiring several heavy duty guns recently could be taken as silent admission of technical weakness in major areas (especially after departure of LB)
- Reliability engineering could be stronger
- Pit wall engineering could use changes as well; I am not sure what's the problem, but Schumacher got exposed some pretty weak strategy on a few occasions

People talking about more time are required, but time to do what? Some of the issues do not require five years grace period. Occasionally I wonder how would have this year developed with a different tire. Team is not responding perhaps as rapidly to emerging issues as some others do. Is this process symptomatic of growing up? I sort of doubt that is the only challenge for them. Finally, unresolved commercial issues probably leave some employees wondering about their job in 2013, which could be legitimate, yet undesirable distraction. Management has every right to be concerned about other teams taking advantage of this unfinished business, and perhaps put a fire wall against other teams quietly pouching the best from lower ranks.


I think Dr Z, put a lot of trust in Norbert and Brawn that, Mercedes would hit the ground running from day one. However, that has clearly not been the case. The opportunity seemed mouth-watering: Brawn the WDC+WCC champions of 2009, coveted with Mercedes with Schumacher coming out of retirement to join them. That would be a dream come true for Mercedes, however, it is seemingly Dr Z's worst nightmare.

Things haven't turned out as planned, with a lot of flaws in this team being exposed this year (particularly reliability). As a result, inevitably, Stuttgart will become more and more involved in the teams affairs. However, I wouldn't go as far as saying, there has been a total lost of faith and trust in Brawn just yet. This is evident due to the fact: they have hired in the "heavy duty guns" to help re-solve weaknesses of the technical department of MGP. With regards to the final two points, they quite clearly need to be addressed - how this is resolved is a mystery since we're just armchair fans and have no inside info :D.

A large amount of time is required, to remove the BAR DNA from this Brackley unit. Until this is gone, Mercedes won't achieve consistent success. Look at Lotus, it's not a one-hit wonder this year - they've been a strong unit for many years now, simply because of the density of their talent pool. Something MGP are striving to increase by the looks of things.

The second half of the season and the W04, will determine Mercedes's future involvement in F1, as a works team.

#1029 Disgrace

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 21:14

Reading Gary Andersons report, I've never heard of a team actually taking downforce off the car as part of development. Is there any other such example of that happening?

#1030 mkoscevic

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 21:51

tyre degradation isn't a big issue anymore


Mercedes has terrible tyre degradation issues and it's just going race by race. Sometimes it's surreal to watch their sector times through the race.

Something is obviously wrong and they seem unable to fix it during the season which means that car has no good enough baseline despite they've done some fine engineering with overall car architecture.

If the only major thing they lack is a bit more downforce why would they make comments they did recently about their focus of development not being as aggressively on the aero side as it normally is?

#1031 Jejking

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 21:57

Reading Gary Andersons report, I've never heard of a team actually taking downforce off the car as part of development. Is there any other such example of that happening?

Yep, for low-df configs at tracks like Spa / Monza. Usually some times reinstall some older, lower-df parts on the car to reduce drag.

#1032 Disgrace

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 23:46

Yep, for low-df configs at tracks like Spa / Monza. Usually some times reinstall some older, lower-df parts on the car to reduce drag.


Well I knew that, likewise the skinny wings around the old Hockenheim, but to have to take downforce off in order so as not to take off something else on the car. I can't envisage an Adrian Newey or Rory Byrne so much as thinking of doing that.

#1033 rossbrawn

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 23:56

Well I knew that, likewise the skinny wings around the old Hockenheim, but to have to take downforce off in order so as not to take off something else on the car. I can't envisage an Adrian Newey or Rory Byrne so much as thinking of doing that.


Well, there's no point having the cascades at the front if you don't have the same amount of downforce at the rear.

#1034 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:39

Why is Bigois being drafted into such a high position at Ferrari?

All he has ever produced are shitboxes.


We're just playing fair because Mercedes took Costa :p

#1035 BigCHrome

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 04:03

Reading Gary Andersons report, I've never heard of a team actually taking downforce off the car as part of development. Is there any other such example of that happening?


Yes it's happened before. Aero balance is very important and there is no point in having a lot of downforce at the front of the car if the rear can't handle it. The oversteer will kill the tires and will make the car unstable.

#1036 Kingshark

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 05:19

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/101688

Mercedes not throwing in the towel just yet; I'm happy to see this sort of attitude.

You have no idea how delighted I am to hear that news.

Usually, at this time of the year you'd hear the team of Brackley once again giving up on the car and fully concentrating on next seasons car, without a proper base. I'm happy that Mercedes are trying to prove that they can solve their issues and not give up on their current car. They need to get rid of that BAR Honda mentality.

#1037 Zava

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 07:22

Reading Gary Andersons report, I've never heard of a team actually taking downforce off the car as part of development. Is there any other such example of that happening?

this year mclaren took off the snowplough from the underside of the nosecone for the same reasons.

#1038 Fondmetal

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 08:48

What is Nick Frys role these days? Is he just a puppet for the team now? He should be the first to go!

#1039 baddog

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:00

Nick Fry is, was and always will be a business exec and marketing guy. He might have technically been a team principal for a short time but he is not a racing guy. If the finances of the team are good then why would he be got rid of?

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#1040 rog

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:58

Mercedes has terrible tyre degradation issues and it's just going race by race.



Rosberg didn't suffer from big tyre degradation in the last races. Since Barcelona the only exception was Valencia (but other teams suffered too). The slow overall pace is their problem. So I disagree with you, it's not their strength of course but not terrible either. They need more downforce and then we will see a further improved tyre durability.

Edited by rog, 04 August 2012 - 10:03.


#1041 rossbrawn

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 10:06

Rosberg didn't suffer from big tyre degradation in the last races. Since Barcelona the only exception was Valencia. The slow overall pace is their problem. So I disagree with you, it's not their strength of course but not terrible either.


I agree.

There seems to be a common misconception about: Mercedes actually like the warmer temperatures.
Top position vs track temperature

Posted Image

Credit to beelsebob (http://www.f1technic...profile&u=11583)

They need more rear-DF, to lengthen their stints.

#1042 Sakae

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 10:37

Nick Fry is, was and always will be a business exec and marketing guy. He might have technically been a team principal for a short time but he is not a racing guy. If the finances of the team are good then why would he be got rid of?

Dr. Schmidt thinks that F1 is a good marketing vehicle for the automaker. If Fry is still in his job, I guess JS is probably happy with him (altghou I do not mean to imply that Fry is reporting directly to him).

#1043 sharo

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:10

Well, I wouldn't call myself a superstitious man, but since many years, from the Honda days, my inner feeling is that as long as Fry is in that team they are doomed for failure. Don't ask me why, just a gut feeling.

#1044 ali_M

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 13:13

Well, I wouldn't call myself a superstitious man, but since many years, from the Honda days, my inner feeling is that as long as Fry is in that team they are doomed for failure. Don't ask me why, just a gut feeling.


I can understand this. :lol:

#1045 artista

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 13:25

I agree.

There seems to be a common misconception about: Mercedes actually like the warmer temperatures.
Top position vs track temperature

Posted Image

Credit to beelsebob (http://www.f1technic...profile&u=11583)

They need more rear-DF, to lengthen their stints.


a) that graph is basically flat. You are guiding your eye by the first point that distorts the graph.

b) when talking about a team liking warm or cold temperatures, what people are usually talking about is not just absolute temperatures but also temperatures related to what you expect for a certain place. The "car A likes it hot or cold" is usually related with the tyre use and, to choose the tyres, Pirelli takes into consideration what tarmac temperatures they are expecting and which are the characteristics of the tarmac (how abrassive it is, etc). According to that 30 degrees tarmac temperature Malaysia would be extremely cold while the same temperature in GB would be hot.

Edited by artista, 04 August 2012 - 13:33.


#1046 rossbrawn

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 13:41

a) that graph is basically flat. You are guiding your eye by the first point that distorts the graph.

b) when talking about a team liking warm or cold temperatures, what people are usually talking about is not just absolute temperatures but also temperatures related to what you expect for a certain place. The "car A likes it hot or cold" is usually related with the tyre use and, to choose the tyres, Pirelli takes into consideration what tarmac temperatures they are expecting and which are the characteristics of the tarmac (how abrassive it is, etc). According to that 30 degrees tarmac temperature Malaysia would be extremely cold while the same temperature in GB would be hot.


a) No I'm not.

b) Which supports my case even more: they finished in quite low positions in Malaysia. They would've done much better in the 'heat' (for which they were setup for).

#1047 artista

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 13:48

a) No I'm not.

b) Which supports my case even more: they finished in quite low positions in Malaysia. They would've done much better in the 'heat' (for which they were setup for).

well then:

a) you are reading the graph wrong because it doesn's show at all an improvement in the positions as temperature raises

b) in Malaysia, it rained and there was a red flag, among other thigns that change natural positions. There is another problem in that graph I didn't want to get into because whoever did it did a lot of work and I don't really know what he/she warned to the people reading it: yeah, you have a position vs temperature graph. How do mechanical issues, crashes and others affect the graph? Is the graph corrected with that? Does it mean that if Mercedes is running 1st and 2nd at 15ºC and both drivers crash with each other finishing 23rd and 24th, the normal position of Mercedes at 15ºC is 23.5th? It isn't, right?

That graph doesn't support your case or the opposite in any way

#1048 rossbrawn

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 14:01

well then:

a) you are reading the graph wrong because it doesn's show at all an improvement in the positions as temperature raises


It quite clearly does, use your eyes: look at the spread.

b) in Malaysia, it rained and there was a red flag, among other thigns that change natural positions. There is another problem in that graph I didn't want to get into because whoever did it did a lot of work and I don't really know what he/she warned to the people reading it: yeah, you have a position vs temperature graph. How do mechanical issues, crashes and others affect the graph? Is the graph corrected with that? Does it mean that if Mercedes is running 1st and 2nd at 15ºC and both drivers crash with each other finishing 23rd and 24th, the normal position of Mercedes at 15ºC is 23.5th? It isn't, right?

That graph doesn't support your case or the opposite in any way


Obviously, the graph isn't a total 100% complete picture because as you mentioned, there are a lot of variables to be taken into account.

Having said that, there is a clear trend: Mercedes's are performing much better in the warmer conditions than they were at the start of the season. And this whole Mercedes's munch their tyres thing is being overplayed - the lack of rear-downforce is what is hurting them and the tyres. Once they begin gaining rear-downforce, they will be able to spread their stints out a whole lot more. McLaren have shown that: in Silverstone Hamilton finished behind Schumacher and used up his tyres at a much quicker rate. Come Hockenheim, McLaren brought various upgrades which brought them more downforce and hence better race pace - which enabled them to fight at the front.

Edited by rossbrawn, 04 August 2012 - 14:01.


#1049 artista

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 14:24

It quite clearly does, use your eyes: look at the spread.

I'm using my eyes and yes, actually, it is precisely the spread what actually shows that you can't see any tendency in that graph. The spread causes an error in the determination of the slope that doesn't let us see if it (the slope) has a positive or a negative value.
Again, you're overweighting the first point on the upper left corner.

Obviously, the graph isn't a total 100% complete picture because as you mentioned, there are a lot of variables to be taken into account.

Having said that, there is a clear trend: Mercedes's are performing much better in the warmer conditions than they were at the start of the season. And this whole Mercedes's munch their tyres thing is being overplayed - the lack of rear-downforce is what is hurting them and the tyres. Once they begin gaining rear-downforce, they will be able to spread their stints out a whole lot more. McLaren have shown that: in Silverstone Hamilton finished behind Schumacher and used up his tyres at a much quicker rate. Come Hockenheim, McLaren brought various upgrades which brought them more downforce and hence better race pace - which enabled them to fight at the front.

Again, there is not any trend in that graph at all. The only trend you could see there is that it seems (and it just seems, nothing more) to be less dispersion in the position of the driver as temperature raises, but there is not any clear trend in the driver position regarding the track temperature.

And now you admit that there is an evolution of the car throughout the year. But then you try to use as one proof a graph where data of the beginning of the season and from later on are mixed.

If you want to convince people about the Mercedes being better in the warm than in the cold, look for other proofs, but don't use that graph (which is my point)



#1050 Sakae

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 17:25

I can understand this. :lol:

Hasn't N. Fry accepted different responsibilities under Mercedes's ownership than those he held before that? I don't think that he is the one calling shots today at Brackley (but I could be wrong about that).