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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#1201 Spa95

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 18:09

If it's true, Michael obviously knew why he didn't want to commit to the team "within the next 6 weeks" at the beginning of July.

Edited by Spa95, 23 August 2012 - 18:10.


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#1202 Sakae

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 18:12

Rumours as usually. Management will not make inside works announcement until someone (above Haug) will make public announcement on what the solution is.

#1203 ivand911

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 18:15

Rumours as usually. Management will not make inside works announcement until someone (above Haug) will make public announcement on what the solution is.

I guess workers there can sense where things are going(it is not for the first time). If they don't do what one F1 team should be doing. Focus on racing and performance,updating the car. If they have to much free time ,doing nothing.

Edited by ivand911, 23 August 2012 - 18:16.


#1204 Sakae

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 18:19

I guess workers there can sense where things are going(it is not for the first time). If they don't do what one F1 team should be doing. Focus on racing and performance,updating the car. If they have to much free time ,doing nothing.

Brackley works is exposed to rumors as everyone else is. I would be more concerned about pouching top brains by other teams, who can take advantage of this situation. Of course I do not know if they do, but risk exists.

Edited by Sakae, 23 August 2012 - 18:21.


#1205 ivand911

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 18:22

I think it is time for a rain dance. Last hope for Spa.

#1206 Sakae

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 18:27

If there is low morale in Brackley because of livelyhood uncertainty, rain dance could be the best improvement yet that we can expect in Spa.

#1207 ivand911

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 18:44

I think Nico will sign with Ferrari for next year, if Mercedes plan to pull out.

#1208 Sakae

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 19:17

Hard to say, but it might be for him best seat that is available (SF), should he decide to leave. More I think about it, on the ground there might not be in reality any change. Maybe a different letterhead, but that's about all, while engineering will get support from Stuttgart Management of the team in operations will be more independent. That's what rumours implying as I understand them.

#1209 Sakae

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 20:10

This is probably the latest news on CA | 18.8.2012 (that I have found)
Mercedes yet to sign new deal with F1, says Ecclestone.
I was under impression from his previous and recent interview, that all was commercially done, just lawyers asked to change some wording in the contract. This however is definitely something else again, and commercially CA is not finalized. He had meeting with Dr. Zetsche last week, and there is no agreement on the table he can announce.
Article also mentions that team name change might not be allowed anymore (or restricted) under new CA.
http://sports.ndtv.c...says-ecclestone


#1210 ivand911

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 20:11

Hard to say, but it might be for him best seat that is available (SF), should he decide to leave. More I think about it, on the ground there might not be in reality any change. Maybe a different letterhead, but that's about all, while engineering will get support from Stuttgart Management of the team in operations will be more independent. That's what rumours implying as I understand them.

It is not known if the team will be able to pay drivers 18 million euro per year anymore. MS can drive for free, but for Nico Ferrari is the best choice. That team is in different league.
MS and Rubens again in one team. :clap: :rotfl:


#1211 Sakae

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 20:22

It is not known if the team will be able to pay drivers 18 million euro per year anymore. MS can drive for free, but for Nico Ferrari is the best choice. That team is in different league.
MS and Rubens again in one team. :clap: :rotfl:

Without joking, Rubena is offering to come back - somewhere - like Williams. ("he would consider"). I read it today when I was searching for news on CA.

#1212 Slowinfastout

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 20:57

I don't think Shumacher will stay if the team is plunged into a period of turmoil under new ownership.

Besides that, if the team can't make progress using the Mercedes-Benz wallet along with Ross Brawn calling the shots, then what does it take?

Next season is an evolutionary year as far as the regulations are concerned, so there won't be any miracle landing on a new owner's lap like in 2009.

The timing couldn't be worse for all this crap, the new CA is to be signed one year before massive changes are to come in F1 for 2014. This brings a huge level of uncertainty for everyone; Mercedes first and foremost, but also Shumacher, Rosberg and potential new owners have no idea what they get themselves into...

---------

Another aspect I will throw out there: is it possible that Mercedes have been tightening up the purse strings at the beginning of the season, as soon as problems surfaced with the CA negotiations?

Maybe that's why car development has completely stalled.. it doesn't help getting a good price for the team you're looking to sell, but on the other hand if you really want to get out of F1, the price need to be accessible for the buyer and performance-wise all you need is to demonstrate potential, which they did early in the season.

Edited by Slowinfastout, 23 August 2012 - 21:05.


#1213 Schumacher7

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 21:00

THAT'S WHAT'S BEEN MISSING! Old Ferrari dream team: Schumacher, Brawn, BARRICHELLO!
Next year shall be glorious.

On a serious note I'm reasonably optimistic about Spa, I think the car will probably have some pretty good improvements and Merc should get back nearer the front again.

#1214 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 21:08

More CA related rumbling:

Flagworld:

“I don’t know why the big teams need 60 people.”


I don't know what this has to do with the W03, but it's stupid to say that by Zehnder. The big teams want to run at the front, not in the midfield like Sauber. Once Sauber is fighting for WDC/WCC with their current headcount he can say that, but not now.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 23 August 2012 - 22:07.


#1215 jjpm

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 22:16

Possibilities :

Norbert Haug out of Mercedes AMG Petronas, but who would/could replace him? Bob Bell perhaps?

some questions :
1. can they change name before new ca is signed - I don't think so
2. can they change name after next ca signed - Bernie say that will be prohibited according to NDTV
3. its a hell of a poker game between BE and DZ - BE seems strongest but DZ has a joker, unlikely, but heavy : complete withdrawal in 2014, they could buy their contracts with teams back (engine contract with McLaren and Force India till 2015?)

Edited by jjpm, 23 August 2012 - 22:17.


#1216 Sakae

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 02:00

Mercedes and CA

If one follows Mr. BE's interviews as recorded on the internet, print it, and compare statements side-by-side, I would say they could be considered quite contradictory to each other, thus I am not sure what to think of it. Good catch from jjpm on that name-change issue, which I didn't know about until late last night when I found the interview with NDTV. It creates little challenge for AMG F1 idea, which might be now more difficult undertaking, but not entirely dead (if they want to go that way).

Second issue - based on the source for French Auto-Hebdo, I was expecting a statement on the subject by Zetsche this week. Well, we still have Friday, but it would be very unusual timing for statements of that kind, thus question is, how we are supposed to interpret silence? Is it hopeful, or hopeless? Based on the interview with BE, it's about one and half weeks since BE and Dr. Zetsche met. It could mean no one blinked, or Zetsche is finalizing their final counter-offer, and we will have to wait some more. Thing is, I do not believe anymore that Mercedes is the only party that hasn't signed.

Then this:

…German financial newspaper Handelsblatt carried a story today (27.6.2012) that internal advice within Mercedes is that it should consider withdrawing its team from F1 over this bribery scandal as it runs against the company’s statutes relating to involvement with corruption.

http://www.jamesalle...year-jail-term/

Is it over? Not by long-shot, until prosecutors say so.

#1217 Tommorris747

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 02:34

We pretty much have completely opposite views.

When Ecclestone issues a statement saying he thinks Mercedes will stay, it's basically to express in the public domain that there is a doubt about whether Mercedes will stay or not.

You don't see Bernie leaking an article that says: 'I don't think Ferrari will quit F1 after this season' ...and if he did, it would send everyone into an epic speculating frenzy.


Maybe you are right but unless we are in the head of Ecclestone we cannot be sure! I do know that when Ecclestone says he thinks Mercedes will stay it does not logically follow that this means there is a doubt about whether Mercedes will stay or not. It means he thinks Mercedes will stay in F1. Whether that is what he really thinks is a different matter but that is the meaning of his words. We will have to wait to see if Mercedes leaves F1 to see whether his words were a forecast of the future or not. If Mercedes does not leave F1 then it shows we would have been better off taking Ecclestone's words at the face value because they gave a crystal ball into the future. I am not sure what Mercedes will do but we will have to see.

#1218 Sakae

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 07:02

This explains some legal aspects (it's sort of an old article, and some might read it)

http://www.pitpass.c...ful-say-lawyers

1. CA section is preventing teams to talk about new series before end of 2012 season. I am not saying they will, but they can.

2. CA has 300 pages, whereas teams approved (only) 30 - I am not sure what's significance of that

3. This was mentioned long time ago, but very seldom discussed - Mercedes is objecting to full commitment to F1 until 2020, which to me makes business sense. Company needs to be run from Stuttgart, not from FOM office, especially in such whacky economic times

____________

Article basically describes BE as a savvy strategist, a puppeteer (my term). Point is, it might be without Mercedes, and BE hasn’t learn anything from early 1981, when Grand Prix was held at Kyalami without the “legalists”, and it hit subsequently BE hard and painfully. CA was borne, but bad CA I think is no better than no CA at all. BE is of respectable age, and does he cares more about immediate effect (perceived financial success), or long term legacy of potentially dying series due to unsound foundations because basically it is relaying in Ferrari, RBR and McLaren to keep series alive and well. If you trust that LdM will be quiet for next eight years, than good luck to you, just as an energy drink company will pour millions year after year...

Edited by Sakae, 24 August 2012 - 07:03.


#1219 KirilVarbanov

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 10:19

Glimpse of telemetry traces, thanks to MGP AMG team:

Posted Image

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#1220 Cavani

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 16:51

they say also that the whole operation is a bit messy at the moment and there is a confusion on the factory management what will happen next

#1221 Sakae

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 18:13

Uncertainty - yes, big way, but not confusion; if there is any of it, then it's self induced.

Edited by Sakae, 24 August 2012 - 19:37.


#1222 Sakae

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 12:11

Top Speed

...The reasoning for Mercedes possibly leaving has more folds than Jabba the Hut in a size-2 bikini,...



#1223 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 21:58

They should rename themselves to Mercedes OMG Petronas. That way the top brass won't be disappointed with the results :lol:

#1224 jjcale

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 23:16

The mistake here is not to let Ross Brawn lead the negotiations for Merc... Dr Z should not be negotiating directly with BE - that is a recipe for failure. Dr Z seems to have put himself in a position where compromise might mean humiliation given his prestige.

Ross and BE would be on the same wavelenght whereas BE and Dr Z seem to be at cross purposes .... Ross should have been given perameters and left to get on with it.... he has already proven himself to be a fantastic negotiator.

#1225 Sakae

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 00:07

jjcale, you are seems to be making assumptiona that Dr. Zetsche is an inept negotiatiator, something I doubt very much so. I am actually surprised that Ecclestone got through the door. Perhaps Zetsche's secretary could have just handed to him an envelope with conditions, and be done with it.

#1226 jjcale

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 06:38

jjcale, you are seems to be making assumptiona that Dr. Zetsche is an inept negotiatiator, something I doubt very much so. I am actually surprised that Ecclestone got through the door. Perhaps Zetsche's secretary could have just handed to him an envelope with conditions, and be done with it.


You just made my point :)

I am not saying that Dr Z is a poor negotiator .... in fact it does not matter if he is the worlds greatest negotiator in the world... its a question of "horses for courses" as they say in England. The mismatch in the status of Dr Z and BE means it is very hard for Dr Z to make meaningfull concessions without losing face. This puts him at a disadvantage from day one... It also means that Dr Z carries the can for the deal with the board, the shareholders and the union(s). This puts him under further pressure... and, as you rightly say, Dr Z negotiating with BE elevates BE's status (undeservedly) and in a way that appears to put F1 and Merc on the same level - but this is not so.... I could go on and on.

The right thing to do was to delegate the process of talking to BE to someone at an appropriate level ... and Brawn is the perfect person for this as he has the same sort of cunning streetwise mind that BE has and we know he has a business head (and some very good professional contacts) from from his adventure with Honda, Brawn and now Merc. An adventure that could not have been successfuly undertaken by most people yet he managed not only to make himself a rich man from it (BE style) he also enjoyed unprecedented sporting success.

Thinking about it now Brawn would make a good candidate to replace BE if he ever retires.

#1227 finignig

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 07:13

Thinking about it now Brawn would make a good candidate to replace BE if he ever retires.



That would make me go :clap: :clap: :clap:

#1228 Sakae

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 07:17

There is some doubt that there is good relationship between those two men. Ecclestone most of time during interviews refer to Dr. Zetsche as "him". (I talk to him, etc...). Maybe that is normal in place where Ecclestone lives, but not in Germany. We permit ourselves some liberties on this BB, but talking to media in those terms is something else, one would think.
Thing is, after full month of August reading on automaker's business and their plans, augmented with observation how they are behaving outside of F1, I am becoming slowly convinced, that F1 is really not so important to them to the extend, they would bent backwards for Mr. Ecclestone. They are not desperate by any means, and of they are, they are hiding it pretty well then. How this all translates on the racing track remains to be seen, but nobody is talking.

#1229 Slowinfastout

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 07:43

In other words the results are shit and any hope of looking virtuous in defeat are squashed by how shit the results are.

This F1 operation is therefore incapable of hiding how beige the whole Mercedes car lineup is? and how hopeless the AMG brand is without the ridiculously simple 6.3 liters V8 spitfire-sounding freaking-approved-by-god-himself engine?

have I missed anything?

Edited by Slowinfastout, 26 August 2012 - 07:48.


#1230 Sakae

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 08:53

In other words the results are shit and any hope of looking virtuous in defeat are squashed by how shit the results are.

This F1 operation is therefore incapable of hiding how beige the whole Mercedes car lineup is? and how hopeless the AMG brand is without the ridiculously simple 6.3 liters V8 spitfire-sounding freaking-approved-by-god-himself engine?

have I missed anything?

I think that missing point are time line, and business priorities. We do not know if we would have these discussions, if CA was little further away. Reality however is, time for long term commitment is now, and terms of engagement are not to Merc liking, I gather.
Ecclestone is demanding commitment by teams under new CA until 2020 and legitimate question is whether it is prudent under current economic conditions to accept by any executive such a time line, regardless how it is perceived by public. It should not escape to you that not a single automaker has accepted Ecclestone's terms, but Ferrari, and only after they were promised special treatment. Ecclestone has created huge inequalities in payback under terms which teams can accept or reject without being characterized by whatever terms.


#1231 jjpm

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 14:46

Ecclestone needs Mercedes-BENZ-Daimler much more than Mercedes-BENZ-Daimler needs F1

Bernie may have difficulties to imagine 2014's entries list :

Ferrari Ferrari engine
Sauber Ferrari engine
Toro Rosso Ferrari engine
Lotus Renault engine
Red Bull Renault engine
Williams Renault engine
McLaren TAG engine
HRT Cosworth engine
Caterham Lamborghini engine
Marussia Judd engine
Force India Motori-Moderni
USF1 PURE engine
LOLA Toyota engine

#1232 Sakae

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 16:25

Rumor has it, that Sauber wants divorce with SF based on rental charges for their engine.

Edited by Sakae, 26 August 2012 - 16:27.


#1233 Sakae

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 17:39

Autosport

...PURE's technical director Gilles Simon sent an email to suppliers apologising for the situation, but said that it was vital that the team had the right funding in place if it was to continue.

In the email, a copy of which has been seen by AUTOSPORT, Simon said: "I would like to warn my colleagues working in Cologne that we are obliged to suspend our activities from August 1.

"In effect, the funds that we were expecting from our investors are not available and that will not allow us to begin this project on the correct footing....



Is this fixed?

To make F1 operation viable, one needs to run at full plant capacity. Three engine suppliers would be perhaps optimum.

Edited by Sakae, 26 August 2012 - 17:41.


#1234 Longtimefan

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 19:20

I think in the coming weeks Michael will announce he's quitting (again), as much as I'd LOVE to see him go to another team its really not going to happen.

I'm livid at Mercedes at simply WASTING his last F1 years in such a shitbox of a car year after year. its very depressing indeed :(

I think a podium at Spa might be the last we see of him on the podium, it needs to rain!

tbh for a Schumi fan its a very depressing and sad time. He clearly has the passion and the pace, the team are crippling him :(



#1235 Sakae

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 20:01

I fear that we still do not understand what happened in Hungary, and we might newer will. Either Michael was really angry and made series of mental errors, or there was problem with engine tuning and the thing went off in least convenient moment. (Solution that backfired in ref. that Merc's engine is hard on rear tyres). Today we must hope that next race will be better. Several years ago we were all embarrassed when JT asked Rubens to let Michael through and Barichello went insane, and now this. Hungary is simply not a happy land for our man, but Spa is. Looking forward to some team's success as well.

Edited by Sakae, 27 August 2012 - 04:52.


#1236 Cavani

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 20:19

I think in the coming weeks Michael will announce he's quitting (again), as much as I'd LOVE to see him go to another team its really not going to happen.

I'm livid at Mercedes at simply WASTING his last F1 years in such a shitbox of a car year after year. its very depressing indeed :(

I think a podium at Spa might be the last we see of him on the podium, it needs to rain!

tbh for a Schumi fan its a very depressing and sad time. He clearly has the passion and the pace, the team are crippling him :(


lighten up , there is more important things than to see schumacher win

#1237 Szoelloe

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 20:20

lighten up , there is more important things than to see schumacher win


such as?


:rotfl:


#1238 Longtimefan

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 21:04

lighten up , there is more important things than to see schumacher win


I think you're in the wrong forums :p


#1239 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 22:25

lighten up , there is more important things than to see schumacher win


True....but the last 3 years have been a PR disaster for Mercedes.

They have wasted hundreds of millions of dollars on a dream. They have proved time and time again that they cannot field TWO reliable and fast cars at the same time on the same track at the same time.

They have let both drivers down repeatedly over and over again.

Think back to dominant China victory and the contrast to Hungary. Have you ever seen something utterly pathetic as that?

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#1240 BigCHrome

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 01:51

Think back to dominant China victory and the contrast to Hungary. Have you ever seen something utterly pathetic as that?


Hungary wasn't Mercedes' fault. It was completely Schumi's fault.

#1241 baddog

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 04:45

Hungary wasn't Mercedes' fault. It was completely Schumi's fault.

Yes it was a bloody super weekend for them apart from Michael's start. Really.

#1242 Sakae

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 10:49

FlagWorld | 25.7.2012
Martin Whitmarsh has urged Mercedes to finally sign the new Concorde Agreement.

http://www.flagworld...-sign-concorde/

Despite Bernie Ecclestone’s earlier intimations to the contrary, it emerged at Hockenheim that Mercedes is in fact still yet to agree to the terms of the new deal. It is believed a major sticking point is that top rivals McLaren, Ferrari and Red Bull have all been offered places on F1′s post-floatation board, but not Mercedes.



Indeed, in an interview with McLaren boss Whitmarsh posted on F1′s official website, the transcript quotes the questioner as saying that only “three team members from Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren” will be on the board.

“I don’t think that it is a secret anymore that nine teams have signed the contract — and I really hope that the silver team next door (Mercedes) will sign very shortly and it will be then that we will take up our board position,” said Whitmarsh. Another major hurdle to the finalisation of the 2013 Concorde is the fact that the FIA is also yet to sign up.

When asked about that, Whitmarsh answered: “Well, my fear is that at the moment the deal hasn’t been done and therefore it adds some volatility to the situation.

“At times formula one has lost opportunities because of inner frictions.”

The Briton did, however, admit that it would be “possible” for formula one to live without its current governing body.

“But I don’t think it is a productive thing,” added Whitmarsh.

Interestingly, Whitmarsh – the head of the now-fractured teams alliance FOTA – also revealed that teams are in fact not signing a single Concorde Agreement, but a swathe of “individual contracts”.

If we (McLaren) were not happy with our contract we wouldn’t have signed it, so I am not complaining, but the danger is that if we all have individual contracts that is probably not aligning us and bringing us together,” he said.


Edited by Sakae, 27 August 2012 - 10:51.


#1243 packapoo

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:49

They'd be stupid to do so if they are really contemplating withdrawal.


#1244 Cavani

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 08:51

who are the other two teams other than merc who didnt sign ?

#1245 Sakae

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 09:47

Articles pertaining to CA are pretty much recycled quotes from very few sources (one or two), and I cannot find any updates for quite a while after Auto Hebdo posting.
Reportedly FiA has extended deadline for applications to the end of Sept 2012, if I am not mistaken, and asked teams to re-submit papers. Some time ago Williams was also quoted as holding back (for unexplained reasons), but that might have changed in past a few weeks. I cannot, however, recall seeing that confirmation about Williams at all.


#1246 jjpm

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 11:35

Same here Sakae! not a word since the predictions in Auto-hebdo, I guess Ingo Speich spread a few words at the coffee machine like : "Expect some bad news for F1 at the next shareholders meeting"... the rest is summer's speculative-fiction.

#1247 Sakae

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 12:18

I have been turned-over . Previously I tried to rationalize for myself why they should not step-down, and continue. However after some additional business reading on state of automotive market and developments in Asia, I think I can understand why primary focus should be elsewhere. It's hard to justify total cost of CA with what you get back.

AMG F1 could make sense as a neutral solution if certain conditions could be met with key to the door for return to F1 racing at later date.

Edited by Sakae, 28 August 2012 - 12:20.


#1248 Sakae

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 05:35

Worthwhile to note, that Mercedes's F1 related job recruitment in operations is as active as ever. I hope we all realize significance of it, namely that signs are positive and implying continuance (in some form), because a company that would plan to close the door in three months would not hire new staff at this stage.

Edited by Sakae, 29 August 2012 - 05:37.


#1249 Clatter

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 08:22

Worthwhile to note, that Mercedes's F1 related job recruitment in operations is as active as ever. I hope we all realize significance of it, namely that signs are positive and implying continuance (in some form), because a company that would plan to close the door in three months would not hire new staff at this stage.


Your wrong there. There are plenty of companies that have continued recruiting people right up to the day they went to the wall. If Merc leave then the likelihood is that they will sell the team as a going concern rather than just closing up shop. To that end they need to ensure everything is run as normal.

#1250 Sakae

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 11:16

Try to read my post again, and this time slowly, if you will, please.

Edited by Sakae, 29 August 2012 - 11:17.