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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#1351 Pizdek

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 15:30

What a result...

Its hard, it hard even for me. I m giving up... Totally bad car, flashes at some moments but in general from W01 till this years car is a mess. Big mess. :down: :down:

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#1352 Pizdek

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 15:48

I dont want Mercedes pull the plug and not race anymore. They are my favorite car maker and I want them succeed, but there has to be some major chances because we cant be satisfied with being 4th or 5th team on the grid... Its bad PR for company and they are lieing all the time they are going better and it clear they dont. How can those 5 masterminds cant work something out of this slow car?! They cant purchase anymore tehnical personel so that cant be excuse anymore... This W03 is Bob Bell s car and I cant see how this one has desises like previous two cars... where is top speed today?? Jezz, what to expect tommorow when they start with full tanks and car start chewing tyres??! I can imagine...

#1353 exmayol

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 16:09

Honestly I did not expect miracles but seing repeat of Hungary is pretty sad.

#1354 Sakae

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 16:44

Norbert must be devastated, and who knows what Ross actually thinks. The only hope is, that they have written 2012 unofficially off, and since no major changes are expected in 2013, they went after substantive, long term improvements, and not all was ready yet for this race, but we will see them in forthcoming races.

Hope must not die!

Edited by Sakae, 01 September 2012 - 16:45.


#1355 Pits

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 16:58

Norbert must be devastated, and who knows what Ross actually thinks. The only hope is, that they have written 2012 unofficially off, and since no major changes are expected in 2013, they went after substantive, long term improvements, and not all was ready yet for this race, but we will see them in forthcoming races.

Hope must not die!

I'm with you Sakae! Result's should be a matter of time...., alto it's taking long.

#1356 JensonWDC

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 17:03

maybe Merc follow their own advertisement "the best or nothing".
atm it´s more nothing, so pull out? :wave:

http://www.daimler.c...-benz-pass-cars

#1357 Tardis40

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 17:03

What a result...

Its hard, it hard even for me. I m giving up... Totally bad car, flashes at some moments but in general from W01 till this years car is a mess. Big mess. :down: :down:


I gave up several races ago. Looking at it as a clown show is more entertaining.




#1358 Sakae

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 17:15

maybe Merc follow their own advertisement "the best or nothing".
atm it´s more nothing, so pull out? :wave:

http://www.daimler.c...-benz-pass-cars


I suspect there would be a lot of hostiles happy over that decision, but, we are being told, October is a good month for up or down to let us know.

Edited by Sakae, 01 September 2012 - 17:16.


#1359 SeanValen

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 17:24

Schuey only poled once here, won more. Saying that we would need rain on sunday.

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#1360 Urawa

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 18:18

AMuS:
we already new that but confirmation that the issues are again the same kind of turns as Budapest had.
Bigger facelift for Singapore and MS expects a serious improvement.
Brawn: "with more downforce a lot issues will disappear on its own" (suddenly? Not long time ago he had a different tune...)
Again a new problem with the gearbox showed up and it´s starting to become a serious Achilles heel of the W03

Edited by Urawa, 01 September 2012 - 18:20.


#1361 MSchumi

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 18:23

Mercedes AMG absolutely needs at least some form of mixed conditions. Only that could salvage the weekend, and Schumacher deserves some luck for a change.

#1362 Kingshark

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 18:32

My goodness, how much the team have fallen behind since the start of the season, I can't believe this shitbox is the same rocketship they had in China.

Mercedes is now on par with Toro Rosso and only better than the new teams. Common Brawn, Bell, Costa & Willis.

#1363 CoolBreeze

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 18:51

My goodness, how much the team have fallen behind since the start of the season, I can't believe this shitbox is the same rocketship they had in China.

Mercedes is now on par with Toro Rosso and only better than the new teams. Common Brawn, Bell, Costa & Willis.



Yeap. I remember reading here the hype the car created, with it's fancy front wing and all. Now they're pretty much a laughing stock.

#1364 GS1

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 19:09

pos

#1365 Sakae

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 19:10

Again a new problem with the gearbox showed up and it´s starting to become a serious Achilles heel of the W03

Result of limited track related testing. Proponents of computer simulators can say whatever they want, but there is no substitute for real life, and one wonders if it is really less expensive to throw a few races, than pay a crew to visit a test rack, and play around a while before a driver gets to race with it.


#1366 George Costanza

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 20:29

My goodness, how much the team have fallen behind since the start of the season, I can't believe this shitbox is the same rocketship they had in China.

Mercedes is now on par with Toro Rosso and only better than the new teams. Common Brawn, Bell, Costa & Willis.


Aldo Costa and Willis influence will not be seen until the 2013 car....


Much like Aldo Costa's 1998 Ferrari F300 Design, and so forth.

#1367 Kingshark

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 20:43

I firmly believe that Mercedes will finish the constructors championship sixth behind Sauber. I honestly don't know how the drivers have managed to scrap 106 points together; apart from China (dominant), Monaco (arguably best car), and Canada (decent) - Mercedes have been spectacularly mediocre. At least early on the season the car was good in qualifying, now even that's gone.

Edited by Kingshark, 01 September 2012 - 20:44.


#1368 DS27

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 21:22

Words fail me...all hope has now gone for me . Poor old MS, and Nico for that matter

#1369 Kingshark

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 21:25

Michael needs to retire immediately not to waste any more time at this joke of a team; and Nico should move to Ferrari and replace Massa, he's wasting his prime years at OMG Mercedes.

#1370 Massa

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 21:57

For me it's not even Mercedes, but the Bar Honda team, and it's not surprising to see this team struggle.

#1371 Urawa

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:02

http://www.motorspor...h_12090147.html

noticeable changes will be visible on the car for Singapore according to Brawn.
Let´s see what it is, I doubt an quadruple, triple or whatever DRS is the Holy Grail for the rest of the season.
I don´t know the latest verdict on the exhaust front but maybe we´ll see some bigger changes there finally.

#1372 Sinceref189

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:03

:cry: :cry:

#1373 baddog

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:28

not looking too flash. While I'm sure Michael will shine if the conditions are mixed tomorrow, it would really flatter a team that doesnt deserve it. That said, they are clearly working on an aggressive program from here on so maybe things will change.

#1374 spacekid

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 23:01

Mercedes basically did to Nico what they've been doing to Michael most of this season. Giving him a car that can't make it through the weekend, and compounding a difficult situation by not being able to get the asbolute basics on the pit wall like (like sending a car out with enough time to put in the final hot lap).

Michael extracted as much as the car had to give, which was poor pace. I can kind of excuse a car being down on pace, somone has to be faster, someone has to be slower. What happened with Nico is not excusable, the team appears to have deep systematic problems.

#1375 rog

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 23:02

Tyre degradation improved much at the cost of Qualifying pace. Earlier the season they had a nice Quali pace at least. Now they are not competitive in both Quali and race anymore. I doubt the new update will help them that much because other teams are not standing still. Development pace is way too slow, low downforce, messed up pit stops, reliability is another big issue for them this year. Also the race start advantage seems to be gone. Something is fundamentally wrong with Mercedes. This is the third year for Mercedes, I don't accept excuses anymore. This is not better than BAR/Honda.

#1376 spacekid

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 23:08

Tyre degradation improved much at the cost of Qualifying pace. Earlier the season they had a nice Quali pace at least. Now they are not competitive in both Quali and race anymore. I doubt the new update will help them that much because other teams are not standing still. Development pace is way too slow, low downforce, messed up pit stops, reliability is another big issue for them this year. Also the race start advantage seems to be gone. Something is fundamentally wrong with Mercedes. This is the third year for Mercedes, I don't accept excuses anymore. This is not better than BAR/Honda.


This IS BAR/Honda.


#1377 Slowinfastout

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 23:33

..with a much better engine.

#1378 black magic

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 23:43

Problem is fundamental though. To solve tyre degredation they have reduced downforce. Now the tyres can last because the car is only able to trundle around.

Clearly this the worst car relative to driver abilities

No evidence of resolving issues.this track should have been a highlight but in fact just serves to demonstrate how lost the entire group is.

Rain will offer little except luck this team does not deserve

#1379 Sakae

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 05:35

I have no inside information on what the problem is with the car design and guessing as a next fan, but if we will have the same tire compounds next year as Pirelli is suggesting, Mercedes might need consequently a totally different car then to make a splash, because we aren't looking at minor tune up here and there, but fundamental change of vehicle being governed by the tire-factor. There are surely other issues (COG, chassis, etc.), but rubber comes up in every discussion in past seven months. This might sound like crazy hypothetical, but I am not sure what else is there to be said and done, because design office would have fix on the car already, if they could, but reality is that we are at 13th race, and no relieve in sight. Maybe Monza will have some significant updates which might close the gap on a front car, but to get ahead and grab P1 on consistent basis is something else, and I am not convinced that minor tinkering around edges will do that.


Basically I do agree with black magic, that problem is more of fundamental nature.

Edited by Sakae, 02 September 2012 - 06:57.


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#1380 Sakae

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 06:52

BenzInsider | 1.9.2012

Michael Schumacher

at P13 and P18, respectively.

“I am really sorry for my fans but I am afraid I have to say that I got pretty much everything that we could from today,” said Schumacher. “The car was not quick enough, and especially in the mid-sector we were too slow. We now have to take it as it is and try to do the best we can in the race tomorrow.”


http://www.benzinsider.com/


#1381 rog

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 08:30

This IS BAR/Honda.



I know that a bigger stuff probably comes from the former BAR/Honda. I thought they could improve over the years with the help of Mercedes, new people, the Mercedes engine itself and some knowledge from McLaren etc. The core issues are the same as BAR/Honda had it seems, especially the slow development pace over the year. They tried to solve the tyre degradation and improved, but obviously it took months and went into the wrong direction because they lost even more downforce and much 1 lap performance. Brawn told months ago tyres understanding is the key this year and it would be more important than bringing new updates for the car. In this forum we disagreed and know it's clear why. Yes tyres are important but you cannot stop developing the car further with new areodynamic and mechanical parts. In Formula 1 it goes backwards if you do this.

#1382 anbeck

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 08:31

Mercedes basically did to Nico what they've been doing to Michael most of this season. Giving him a car that can't make it through the weekend, and compounding a difficult situation by not being able to get the asbolute basics on the pit wall like (like sending a car out with enough time to put in the final hot lap).


And that is the difference to when Schumacher went to Ferrari. They also made a lot of mistakes - but each mistake only once! After 2 or three years you have polished out everything, you have new procedures and securities in place and you go on to be a factor in the outcome of the championship for the next decade (from 1997 onwards).

Mercedes, however, seems to have a learning disability.

#1383 ivand911

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 08:58

There is so many bad things to be said that I don't know from where to start. Now carbon gearbox is making problems.
Also DRS shit is not the holy grail. I am sure that we fans here can update that car better. With simple tools and materials.
I don't expect anything in Singapore. It is words,words,words. I don't believe these guys. For 2,5 years I learn my lesson. In Singapore they will say we will have updates in next 2-3 races and end of the season will come. There isn't any explanation why they didn't updated the car in last 5-6 races????? I can't believe F1 team can do this. This is on par with new teams. From MS point of view with friends like Ross , you don't need enemies.
For the time they didn't update the car they could build new car.
Zero chance for rain today.

Edited by ivand911, 02 September 2012 - 09:04.


#1384 JimboJones

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 09:51

There is so many bad things to be said that I don't know from where to start. Now carbon gearbox is making problems.
Also DRS shit is not the holy grail. I am sure that we fans here can update that car better. With simple tools and materials.
I don't expect anything in Singapore. It is words,words,words. I don't believe these guys. For 2,5 years I learn my lesson. In Singapore they will say we will have updates in next 2-3 races and end of the season will come. There isn't any explanation why they didn't updated the car in last 5-6 races????? I can't believe F1 team can do this. This is on par with new teams. From MS point of view with friends like Ross , you don't need enemies.
For the time they didn't update the car they could build new car.
Zero chance for rain today.


ok, this just makes you incredibly ignorant of how difficult it is to make an F1 car go faster.
secondly, they have updated the car more than once in the past 5-6 races; u clearly don't pay much attention.

#1385 ivand911

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 10:40

ok, this just makes you incredibly ignorant of how difficult it is to make an F1 car go faster.
secondly, they have updated the car more than once in the past 5-6 races; u clearly don't pay much attention.

Yeah, tell that to the other teams too. How they mange to do it?
I still hope for better race pace. :rolleyes:

Edited by ivand911, 02 September 2012 - 10:53.


#1386 Massa_f1

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 10:44

http://www.motorspor...h_12090147.html

noticeable changes will be visible on the car for Singapore according to Brawn.
Let´s see what it is, I doubt an quadruple, triple or whatever DRS is the Holy Grail for the rest of the season.
I don´t know the latest verdict on the exhaust front but maybe we´ll see some bigger changes there finally.



Its to late. 2012 is a fail for the team. What have they even been doing in the factory while other teams have been getting updates out well before the summer break. Yet Mercedes wait till Singapore?

and they wonder why they have gone backwards.

Edited by Massa_f1, 02 September 2012 - 10:48.


#1387 weareracing

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 10:52

It must be one of the sorriest stories of the 2012 season.
How the team can go from early season promise (and 1st pole and race win) to favourites for elimination in quali 1 along with Toro Rosso.
If there ARE voices in the Mercedes boardroom advocating walking away from F1 it would not be a total surprise.
So disappointing for Nico (wasting his talent in 2013) and Michael.
I think Ross Brawn is a bullshi**er par excellence with regard to the Mercedes project and time needs to be called on his leadership.

#1388 Massa

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 11:05

Yes its ross brawn the designer...

When ross brawn wasnt there, bar honda was a top team ? No. The problem is the core of this team, its the same bar honda team that it was in 2007, some guys like Costa, Bell came, but the core is the same.

Its just the bar honda team with the Mercedes engine and logo. This is the problem. Its like if Audi take Toro Rosso and they keep the same guys.. The result will be more or less the same..

Edited by Massa, 02 September 2012 - 11:06.


#1389 Kvothe

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 11:10

Schmacher KERS failure reported on SkyF1, mechanics scrambling to fix it and get it out.

#1390 Longtimefan

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 11:11

KERS failed on Schumi's car even before the race starts. What a joke


#1391 anbeck

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 11:14

You've GOT to be kidding!

#1392 Massa

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 11:16

Oh dear...

#1393 weareracing

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 11:16

Yes, the BAR/Honda DNA is within the team, part of their heritage, (just as Red Bull has evolved from Stewart and Jaguar) BUT.........
2009 ?
Plus THREE YEARS of Mercedes control.
Enough excuses, if Ross Brawn cannot purge the team after 5 years as Team Principal then............Big Decisions are needed!

#1394 Massa

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 11:19

2009 ? They won just because the DDD.. Even that year, the red bull was the best car. Bar honda works on the W01 way before others team, and by mid season, Red Bull, Mclaren and perhaps Toyota was as fast. They win because at the start of the season they had the DDD and their car was built around this.

#1395 Tardis40

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 11:20

I don't expect anything in Singapore. It is words,words,words.



Yes, we've already heard it too many times.

WOLF!

Wolf.

wolf?

:-/


Edited by Tardis40, 02 September 2012 - 11:21.


#1396 Massa_f1

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 11:22

KERS failed on Schumi's car even before the race starts. What a joke



I cant say am surprised sadly. I hate this team with a passion now.

#1397 weareracing

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 11:25

So, like I posted, TIME for Big Decisions.
The current level of performance is unacceptable for Mercedes, for Rosberg, for Schumacher and for their fans.
The current structure does not work.

#1398 spacekid

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 11:27

Thank goodness there wasn't much running on Friday or both Mercs would be in pieces by now.

I'm not clear from the BBC what is going on with Schumi's car. They mentined KERS, but also said something about an engine change? A resultant grid drop would be icing on the 300th cake for Michael.

I would love to sit down with Ross Brawn, look him in the eye and say 'Ross, you know this isn't right. Whats going on?'

#1399 Slowinfastout

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 11:29

Ross Brawn will whisper some words and maybe even some tactics and then you guys will be good for several months...

Oh English is my third language but I believe we should go marginally faster around turn 8 because Micheal said his engine is shiny and his brake ducts are freaking cool.

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#1400 Longtimefan

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 11:33

KERS fixed, I wonder how many laps it'll last.