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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#1801 Sakae

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:36

New upgrades might require different set up which they haven't figured out yet. I was hoping for more, but it's not end of the world and civilization as we know it. Michael doesn't strikes me as being happy, but reasons for it could be perhaps assigned to other, unrelated, causes.

Edited by Sakae, 22 September 2012 - 11:43.


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#1802 sanW10

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:42

this is the worst circuit of all, imo we should expect performance from updates in a proper racing track - suzuka.
If both qulaify in top 10, with good strategy, we can atleast retain those top 10 places. lets hope pit stops go silky smooth.
& hope we dont doze off midway race :p

Edited by sanW10, 22 September 2012 - 11:43.


#1803 ali.unal

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 12:04

this is the worst circuit of all, imo we should expect performance from updates in a proper racing track - suzuka.
If both qulaify in top 10, with good strategy, we can atleast retain those top 10 places. lets hope pit stops go silky smooth.
& hope we dont doze off midway race :p

Tight and twisty circuits actuallt are a better gauge for Coanda-effect exhaust configuration to my understanding. Mercedes should have done much better in theory, but then Sakae might be right. It's the first time the new exhaust has hit the track, although I am secretly thinking that most of the time McLaren brought a new package, they are able to be quick right out of the box.

#1804 Sof1

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 13:13

They seem a bit better so far.

#1805 Talryyn

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 13:29

It was fun to watch MS dance around, see what Q2 brings.

#1806 Szoelloe

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 13:32

no q3 today, that much seems to be obvious

#1807 Talryyn

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 13:44

no q3 today, that much seems to be obvious

Thankfully not the case, but so close to being so.

#1808 Diablobb81

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 13:46

In Q3 only because of the drivers of the other teams (Kimi and Massa) but good drive by both.

#1809 Talryyn

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 13:50

So do they stay in the pits and save tires? Not going to be a good race, and I don't think you gain anything at this point.

#1810 Szoelloe

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 13:52

Thankfully not the case, but so close to being so.


Yeah, quite promising for the race so far, though I still don't expect too much. If they can hold on to these positions on sunday that will be an achievement.


#1811 Talryyn

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 14:04

Yeah, quite promising for the race so far, though I still don't expect too much. If they can hold on to these positions on sunday that will be an achievement.

So they start on the soft, and the front guys on super-soft.

#1812 salamin

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 14:05

good strategy from merc, grosjean's time was out of reach

#1813 MS7XWDC

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 14:05

no run in Q3 .... OK, somebody tell me the tyre rules / compound choices are good for F1 now ....

#1814 Sof1

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 14:09

To sum up, the car is crap.

they are behind:

Mclaren
Red Bull
Ferrari
Renault
Williams
Force India

They have 7th best car!


#1815 DS27

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 14:38

Wow - those updates are great...

Both lucked into q3 on the mistakes of others really, though the drivers did all they could.

So frustrating. MS not looking happy all weekend was ominous really. Don't know what to expect for tomorrow - my optimism is all used up

#1816 Urawa

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:36

Maybe the updates work better on a proper race track like Suzuka, although it´s quite fast and flowing.
All the teams which brought new parts here seemed to struggle to extract an improvement.

Edited by Urawa, 22 September 2012 - 15:37.


#1817 Szoelloe

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:50

Maybe the updates work better on a proper race track like Suzuka, although it´s quite fast and flowing.
All the teams which brought new parts here seemed to struggle to extract an improvement.


The updates work better if they have fully mapped the setup window of the new configuration. Singapore, as you say, is not an ideal track to bring a car to that needs to be explored. They have said this before FP1, and considering all FP's, they have made more progress than I thought possible. Just think about Mc losing weeks with their own system going the wrong way with their setup. So I hold back my opinion for now. They should make a steady progress from here, that's all. They seem to have an agreement on the CA too, so let's see how the MS situation develops.

Edited by Szoelloe, 22 September 2012 - 15:58.


#1818 TifosiUSA

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:55

Another week, another Merc letdown. I hate this team, I really do.

#1819 ali_M

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 18:58

no run in Q3 .... OK, somebody tell me the tyre rules / compound choices are good for F1 now ....


It's looking like they'll have the same sort of finish as they had in recent races. Barring high attritions at the front, they'll be fighting for the 7th to 10th positions I'd imagine.

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#1820 korzeniow

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 19:03

At least they tried to save this season not abaddon like in last years.

But it have to be noted that many updates from Sauber, Lotus, Ferrari and RBR didn't work also.



#1821 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 19:09

They have 7th best car!

They have fine drivers though :)

#1822 Sakae

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 19:12

Has anyone figured out race strategy?

#1823 anbeck

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 19:14

Has anyone figured out race strategy?


Pray that the softer tyres hold out long enough and then see how it pans out?

#1824 Pits

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 19:29

Has anyone figured out race strategy?


My guess would be, to start on the soft and drive as long the tires allow them.
That should bring them in a good position for a switch to supper-soft when they are lower on fuel.
I think the supersoft will degrade pretty quickly on full fuel tanks, so it will probably be a two stopper.

This might work out better than expected, alto Vettel and Hamilton seem from a different planet today.
The only thing that can stop those two is an technical failure of some sort.

#1825 Sakae

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 19:30

Last year only about six drivers managed to stay on the same lap. This year - how many stops?

#1826 korzeniow

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 19:52

My guess would be, to start on the soft and drive as long the tires allow them.
That should bring them in a good position for a switch to supper-soft when they are lower on fuel.
I think the supersoft will degrade pretty quickly on full fuel tanks, so it will probably be a two stopper.

This might work out better than expected, alto Vettel and Hamilton seem from a different planet today.
The only thing that can stop those two is an technical failure of some sort.


There are two factors: uneliveable time advantage that SS have over S and tyre degradation

With SS being up to 1.5 seconds faster than S it could be possible to qiuckly build the gap necessary for pitstop over drivers running S tyres. On the other hand it couldn't be done because of high degradation.

#1827 Pits

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 19:57

There are two factors: uneliveable time advantage that SS have over S and tyre degradation

With SS being up to 1.5 seconds faster than S it could be possible to qiuckly build the gap necessary for pitstop over drivers running S tyres. On the other hand it couldn't be done because of high degradation.

Exactly, the 1,5 sec advantage won't last longer than two laps. So starting on soft isn't a that bad idea.
Don't forget that Pastor is starting somewhere in the front, so that could help Schu&Ros also...

#1828 weareracing

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 22:46

Doesn't the car eat tyres quicker than any other on the grid?
The safety-car (usually happens) will be the key to this race, a double points finish would be a triumph for the team but hardly the "upgrade" result they would have been hoping for.
At least the Sauber's look to be struggling here so 5th place in the Constructors seem safe at this race, but Force India are looking fast and with 6 racy tracks ahead, it's going to be interesting in the mid-field.

#1829 Kompressor

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 05:16

It's really frustrating to see the team ignore the exhaust upgrade for most of the season but they immediately try to copy the Lotus-style Drag Reduction Device. I just hope that both drivers finish the race and start to understand the new package.

#1830 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 05:34

Don't forget that Pastor is starting somewhere in the front, so that could help Schu&Ros also...

:rotfl:

That wasn't very nice! :)

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 23 September 2012 - 05:35.


#1831 quidam

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 05:40

Don't dream too much, last year, first pit stop lap 10 to 12 and the gap was more than 30 seconds between P1 and P10 (with super soft);)

If Mercedes run with soft tyres, you can imagine the gap :rolleyes:

Edited by quidam, 23 September 2012 - 05:47.


#1832 BigCHrome

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 05:47

Ugh, I thought the exhaust will make the car competitive.

#1833 Pits

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 05:57

:rotfl:

That wasn't very nice! :)


Yeah I know...
Butt I'll probably be right to... :lol:

#1834 Sakae

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 06:28

intelligentF1 analyst in his blog estimates that our car in Singapore conceivably could be eighth fastest on the grid.

#1835 anbeck

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:10

As some have quoted him here and in other threads, Brawn said the aerodynamics development is lagging behind, because they put all their resources into understanding the tyres first (quite a success, huh?).

I really don't get how that looks like in concrete terms:

"Sorry guys, don't use the wind tunnel today. Let's do something to understand the tyres!"
"But..... but.... you hired me to make wind-tunnel models. I don't know anything about tyres!"
"Doesn't matter! Look at that one and think hard!"

Posted Image
("Come on tyre,... Come on! Talk to me!")

What I want to say is: I understand the focus on understanding tyres. But it's not a zero-sum game, is it? Would the engineers spending time on tyres and suspension geometry not be different persons from different departments than the guy working on the front wing? Obviously, a car is an integrated whole and everybody has to work together to make a car that works as one.
But for me it sounds like a lame excuse. Certainly they knew from the early months of the year that the Coanda exhaust is the way to go. So I cannot imagine by any means that they halted the development to understand tyres.... They might have shifted the effort, take a couple of all-round engineers that worked in one department to make them think about the tyres and develop a new suspension or whatever plays into how the tyre behaves on track (maybe also stuff like heating cycles, etc.).

I always was under the impression that the limiting variable for making an F1 car faster are hours spent in the wind tunnel. Since the early 1990s, I had the impression that no team boss ever would want to trade in a single minute of wind tunnel time. Wind tunnel time availability is the limiting factor probably still nowadays. I cannot see how Brawn would trade that in for the tyre problem - even though it currently seems to be the limiting factor of their current on-track results. But at the expense of wind tunnel time? Never.
It surely must have been a "let's work as much as possible on the tyres without compromising our wind-tunnel work."

Edited by anbeck, 23 September 2012 - 07:12.


#1836 amppatel

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:14

As some have quoted him here and in other threads, Brawn said the aerodynamics development is lagging behind, because they put all their resources into understanding the tyres first (quite a success, huh?).

I really don't get how that looks like in concrete terms:

"Sorry guys, don't use the wind tunnel today. Let's do something to understand the tyres!"
"But..... but.... you hired me to make wind-tunnel models. I don't know anything about tyres!"
"Doesn't matter! Look at that one and think hard!"

Posted Image
("Come on tyre,... Come on! Talk to me!")

What I want to say is: I understand the focus on understanding tyres. But it's not a zero-sum game, is it? Would the engineers spending time on tyres and suspension geometry not be different persons from different departments than the guy working on the front wing? Obviously, a car is an integrated whole and everybody has to work together to make a car that works as one.
But for me it sounds like a lame excuse. Certainly they knew from the early months of the year that the Coanda exhaust is the way to go. So I cannot imagine by any means that they halted the development to understand tyres.... They might have shifted the effort, take a couple of all-round engineers that worked in one department to make them think about the tyres and develop a new suspension or whatever plays into how the tyre behaves on track (maybe also stuff like heating cycles, etc.).

I always was under the impression that the limiting variable for making an F1 car faster are hours spent in the wind tunnel. Since the early 1990s, I had the impression that no team boss ever would want to trade in a single minute of wind tunnel time. Wind tunnel time availability is the limiting factor probably still nowadays. I cannot see how Brawn would trade that in for the tyre problem - even though it currently seems to be the limiting factor of their current on-track results. But at the expense of wind tunnel time? Never.
It surely must have been a "let's work as much as possible on the tyres without compromising our wind-tunnel work."


It was said that the wind tunnel guys worked on next years car....

#1837 george1981

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:23

From what I've heard the supersofts are going off quickly, people were feeling it on their hot laps. If that is the case we might have the situation where the qualifying warn supersoft gives about the same level of performance as a new soft tyre, but the soft tyre should last longer.
I can't remember exactly how many sets of tyres MS and NR have got left, did they use 1 set of softs in Q1 and then how many sets of supersoft in Q2?
If they started on new soft tyres, and got lucky with an early safety car it could take them further up the grid and disrupt other people's races.

#1838 Szoelloe

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 08:12

Expecting them to be around 15th-16th today. From where I stand, it looks like they have not understood the tires at all, and wasted 4 months of development time on junk Pirellis that nobody really understands. (not even pirelli) Now, after they still have not solved the tire deg issue, they bolt on an upgrade they don't understand yet either. I fully understand MS if he got a stroke in the car after 5 laps on Friday in FP1. Because now they seem to be farther behind than ever this season. The car became slower with the new exhaust(even if only temporarily), it cooks its tyres now within 2 laps, regardless of the compound used. They had to revert back to a setup that emulates same problem they had. They cannot heat the tyres to optimum temperature within one lap, but when they do, they eat it fast. MS in q1 ran his hot laps on lap 3,5, and 7. He needed 2 laps to get heat in the tyres. Still, if you take a look at what happened for instance to Vettel(and Weber) as the ambient temps dropped during qualy( and this is Singapore, they do not drop significantly), his pace just went out the window. I wish Pirelli the worst business year they ever had, by the way, and than another two of the same to follow.:D. Which of course does not alter the fact that Mercedes seems to be as incompetent as they are thought to be by many here. It is not very uplifting to watch this squirming they produced for the past 3 years.

Edited by Szoelloe, 23 September 2012 - 08:15.


#1839 ClubmanGT

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 08:43

This strategy is rubbish. The car just doesn't have the mid-corner/exit pace to make use of the grip effectively and will just grain the tyres without extracting the grip available.

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#1840 Szoelloe

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:24

This strategy is rubbish. The car just doesn't have the mid-corner/exit pace to make use of the grip effectively and will just grain the tyres without extracting the grip available.


The car seems to be rubbish. The strategy we don't know anything about yet. They did not have the pace in qualy3 to gain places, so why spoil more tires, further limiting there own chances of getting at least some low points?


#1841 Sakae

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:28

This strategy is rubbish. The car just doesn't have the mid-corner/exit pace to make use of the grip effectively and will just grain the tyres without extracting the grip available.

This one was probably the only one available. In 2012 terms all people ahead of Michael are fast drivers. Only Kimi got stuck behind for some reason, which raises my concern whether Gro will create train-effect when his tires will go down even quicker than Michael's and Rosberg's. I am not sure whether Michael will be able to get ahead at the Start.

#1842 MSchumi

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:15

I guess if the strategy pans out the way they want, plus a little luck, a P5 or P6 could be on the cards. And that's a very big IF.

#1843 Longtimefan

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:24

Expecting more of the same today, decent start but then drifting back and back and...



#1844 MSCDesign

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 11:54

For Michael it's a "long time" since DNF. I have a feeling that today it will be a DNF.

Crash or car failure.

Edited by MSCDesign, 23 September 2012 - 11:54.


#1845 Tardis40

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 11:56

There's Grosjean and Maldonado to contend with. Anything could happen at the start.


#1846 Sof1

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 12:00

Merc is starting on Super Softs! WTF?

#1847 Jejking

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 12:02

First sacrificing quali, then following the trend? I don't get it. Sometimes you've GOT to trial and error.

#1848 dav115

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 12:17

Car overheating after 4 laps? Jesus ****ing christ

#1849 Longtimefan

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 12:21

Car overheating on lap 4.

What a total shitbox, Michael please sign with McLaren/Sauber/Anyone than Merc for 2013



#1850 Sof1

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 12:26

WTF, new tires and they pitt with everyone else?